sust vs enan

[Matt Foley]

how many here believe that the release times of sust and the release times of test enanthate are almost identical.i read a post and a pretty convincing argument i think i believe.your thoughts?


MF

[Ozzy]

How is that possible with 4 different types of test in Sus. ? I mean the prop and phenylprop. are faster releasing ....right ? This should be interesting. Good post Bro

[iron4life79]

theres no way this can be possible, as stated above.

with the short/long acting esters in the sustanon you have to shoot at least eod to get full benefit. with enanthate you can shoot once a week and get away with it, although this wouldnt be my recommendation.

with enanthate the blood levels are much easier to control, as its a single long chain ester.
if you dont inject the sus right, blood levels are on a roller coaster so to speak, which makes for a very unhappy bb'er.

please post the article/ "convincing arguement" you speak of........

peace bb79

[Iron horse]

the posts above were dead on. Impossible with the esters.

[BIG TEXAN]

Agreed with barbells and ozzy, no way is this possible.......

[Ozzy]

Hey Matt......didn't you know crack kills ?

[painintheazz]

Yup, bars is dead on.

Pain

[Magicz]

sus is not good for a first cycle. because i think u should enject 250 eod .

[Matt Foley]

posted by SG @muscletalk

Guys, I'll only argue this once, since I don't feel like getting in any kind of fight over this. When you analyze the release times of a steroid ester, you find out it isn't an exact science, it is front-loaded and most of the active component, in this case testosterone , is released in the first 24 hours, decreasing after that. Refer to the following graphs. They illustrate ACTIVE milligrams of testosterone, factoring in ~6% waste on 250mg of Sustanon and 250mg of Enanthate shot every three days.

Notice they are almost identical. If anyone wants to go over the data for these graphs, I'll go into more detail. There's a lot to understand about steroid esters and how they work. You have to understand that just because a steroid has a long-acting ester does NOT mean it does not release anything in the first 24 hours or 48 hours it is in your body.

You also need to understand that a HALF-LIFE of 1 or 2 days does not mean a DEAD life of 1 or 2 days, it means that you only have HALF left. It also does not mean that if you shoot 100mg of testosterone with a half-life of 2 days that over the course of 48 hours you have a perfectly linear release of testosterone into your bloodstream of 50mg. Depending on the ester used (and to a small degree the individual) you would have approximately 35mg released in the first 24 hours, and about 15mg in the second 24 hours. This might even be a little cautious on the distribution, it could be closer to 40/10.

If you look at the distribution of esters and their releases over the first 24 hours of administration, sustanon looks something like this for day one:

Ester Half-life mg Day 1
Sustanon
Propionate 2 30 10
Phenylpropionate3 60 12
isocaproate 6 60 7
decanoate 8 100 10

39

Compare that to enanthate's first 24 hours of release, which is a single ester, so easier to estimate: 35mg. Day 2 is 29 and 30, sust, enanthate, respectively. When you should again on Day 4 (E3D), you have approximately 59.5mg of active test from sustanon in your system in that next 24 hours and 55mg of active test in your system from enanthate. The graphs speak for themselves.

If you reference Anabolics 2002, by William Llewellyn, page 159, you'll see that one study showed the release of enanthate to be even more aggressive than my estimates.

It's actually much simpler to treat them both as having an approximate 5-day half-life. The esters, when totalled in mg active in your blood, are nearly identical after the first week.

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end first post
begin follow-up:
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-quote from another user:

so why does it not work for three weeks unless frontloaded?

I am sorry but I don't know how to read graphs or what they are trying to show as I have no scientific knowledge?

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Hey, bud, the graphs are showing you what's in your bloodstream at any particular time. Depending on how your body reacts to either one, it'll take it a while to start "noticing" or metabolizing the extra testosterone. This is not really scientifically exact, but I'm just trying to make it simple for ya. Both enanthate and sustanon will be "noticed" in about the same time frame. Some people vary some, but not much.

Let me try to explain why an all-short-ester dosing cycle (test suspension, test propionate AKA prop) is "felt" sooner than a dosing cycle with an average ester release time of 5-days. There are two major reasons, one is frequency of administration, the other is ester weight.

For frequency of administration, take Testosterone Suspension for example. Most people will administer either 50 or 100mg/day. For Testosterone Enanthate a good average would be 250mg every 3 days (as I used hypothetically in my graphs above). Looking at Testosterone Suspension, and assuming the same approximate 6% loss of active compound, you'll get about 46mg of active Testosterone EVERY DAY from a daily injection schedule of 50mg of Test Suspension. Looking at Test Enanthate, and following the data already outline above, your first three days look more like: 35, 30, 23, milligrams of active testosterone, respectively. Now, on that fourth day you shoot another shot, this is going to give you 55, 47, 40 active milligrams of testosterone for your fourth, fifth and sixth days. Notice a couple days were higher than 46mg daily of Test Suspension, but we've not maintained sufficiently high blood level concentrations of testosterone yet to be really effective. Don't fool yourself, it's starting to act on your system, but nothing like the jolt that 46, 46, 46, 46, 46, 46 was giving you from the Suspension.

The weight of an ester is the next piece we have to address. You're also going to see the numbers above are not precise for Test Enanthate because I did not compensate for the weight of the Enanthate ester. When you look at the mg. active of Testosterone in the above paragraph, go back and knock 39% off the Enanthate numbers. When comparing 100mg of Enanthate to 100mg of Suspension, it would take 139mg of Enanthate to equal 100mg of Suspension as pure Testosterone once the Enanthate ester is removed Suspension is a pure testosterone molecule without the added weight of an ester; mg - milligrams, are weight, or mass. Enanthate is testosterone with the enanthate ester attached. The molecular weight of the Enanthate ester takes up a good portion of its mass, or milligrams, of pure Testosterone.

Go look at our numbers from above again, by applying ester weight, the Enanthate is now 21.35, 18.3, 14.03, etc., Daily.

Even if you haven't followed everything so far, understand this. 250mg Enanthate every three days will reach its peak concentration of actual Testosterone in your blood levels on approximately me the 18th day. It will be approximately 56mg. Suspension reaches its peak concentration level the same day and is boosted again daily. This is why no-ester, or short-chain ester compounds, shot every day, or every other day, are going to be active much sooner.

Front-load a long-chain ester is just treating it like a short-chain ester. As you can see, with that sort of treatment regimen, your body will react sooner.

[Matt Foley]

Originally posted by Ozzy
Hey Matt......didn't you know crack kills ?

then quit lookin at my crack ozzy

[Terinox]

Isn't the problem with Enanthate that you have to take high doses or it won't do you good? You need over 600mg at least for it to be effective. I'm doing Sustanon right now, and so is my friend, and I think for a first cycle Sustanon is great. Also read that sustanon usually has the same effects if repeated in other cycles. My friend has gained about 11 pounds in only 2 weeks (his first two weeks), and he is really liking the Karachi's. We are both taking 750mg a week. Shooting it M/W/F. And I know people say it's best to shoot SUS every other day, but I know another friend who only shot it about every FOUR days! He gained 20 pounds off his first cycle doing it like that. Which comes out to be a little less then 500mg a week. It all depends on the person and the diet too I suppose. But personally I'm gonna say go with Sustanon. I did Enanthate, but only a little under 400mg and it didn't do shit! You need LOTS.

[iron4life79]

if that graph is accurate, then its because of the long chain esters in the sustanon .
i can say this with complete confidence, if you shoot sustanon every 3rd or 4th day, the prop ester is wasted.
if want to shoot sus this way, then more power to you, but you might as well save some green and shoot enan, or cyp.

terinox,
you dont have to run high doses of enan or cyp to get results. theres a lot of bros on this board that swear by their low doses(200-400mg) of enan.
i'm very glad you got results from your sust cycle, but it was because of the long chain esters that you got these results. you possibly could have had some minute carryover with the shorter esters, but it wouldnt be enough to affect your gains all that much. as for shooting every 4th day, i think thats a total waste of this compound. your friend got those results because of the long chain esters also. this is jmo though........

peace bb79

[Ozzy]

Originally posted by Terinox
Isn't the problem with Enanthate that you have to take high doses or it won't do you good? You need over 600mg at least for it to be effective. I'm doing Sustanon right now, and so is my friend, and I think for a first cycle Sustanon is great. Also read that sustanon usually has the same effects if repeated in other cycles. My friend has gained about 11 pounds in only 2 weeks (his first two weeks), and he is really liking the Karachi's. We are both taking 750mg a week. Shooting it M/W/F. And I know people say it's best to shoot SUS every other day, but I know another friend who only shot it about every FOUR days! He gained 20 pounds off his first cycle doing it like that. Which comes out to be a little less then 500mg a week. It all depends on the person and the diet too I suppose. But personally I'm gonna say go with Sustanon. I did Enanthate, but only a little under 400mg and it didn't do shit! You need LOTS.

That's exactly how I'm running my Niles Sus. right now. Also I had the same problem with Enanthate .....not as good as Sus. IMO , I like Sus better.

[Matt Foley]

but i think this graph/evidence explains some of the BIG results you hear of ppl gaining 30lbs on a 500mg sust within a cycle.i personally gained 32lbs my first cycle @ 500mgs sust/eq/dbol ?

if this is correct,what puzzles me is the amount of (long chain esters) and the release rate amounts compared to enan.

[MarineJuice]

I definetly agree with the idea of injecting sust eod to reach full potential, but before i had much knowlege of this i too 500 mgs once a week and gained 25 lbs by the 3rd week and a total of 32 lbs by week eight so is more research to be done. i was also taking 400 mgs of deca (not until week 4) so this contributed

[Matt Foley]

bump