All Year Long Cycle, (Vets, Mods, and Anyone with Knowledge & experiance)

I this Thread is a RE-Thread.
This time I would like to see nothing but a serious discussion of this topic.
If U have something to say that is not juice related Please do it somewhere else.
If U have something to say about my signature or your opinion on the war ---- PM me or start up your own Thread –(BTW I really don’t care so long as U don’t post it here)

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**BTW I do not intend on going on this kind of cycle but the information would help a lot)

What are the effects & benefits of a year long cycle?

I'm not talking about bridging between cycles, I'm talking a 12 month cycle starting at say 1000mg of anabolics and building up to 2500mgs of anabolics in the coarse of a year?.......

What I would like to know is: What are the benefits and the side effects. Will A year long cycle permanently inhibit natural recovery?

What are the best precautions one can take to ensure recovery?

How long will it be before a natural state is achieved, and what kinds of mass losses can be/should be expected?

:eek: ..........................:lol:

I want to bump this big time! I think if someone went on a cycle like this they would either come out deformed or come out looking like a beast. Either way, does anyone have any info for this idea?

The best one to talk to is IronisLife79 he's finishing up a 60 week cycle.

JohnnyB

It's ironforlife79

JohnnyB

I did it last year, but it was never intended to start that way, and it wasn't exactly laid out like you have said. The least amount I used over the coarse of a year was 750mg/week of test. It was either Primotest, Sustanon, or T400. The highest amount of test I used was about 1600mg/week. I was usually at or above a gram/week of test for 12+ weeks, and then I might come down to 750 for 6 or 8 weeks. Typically when I was in the gram+ range with the test I would be taking an oral (dbol or Adrol) and another anabolic (Deca or Eq) and for awhile I did tren at 100mg/ed. When I dropped the test to a gram or less, I was on Winny and Primobolan. I also took growth for 4 months at the beginning of all of this (4iu/day) when I was on test/dbol/deca.

I know this all kinda looks like it fluctuated, but for all intents and purposes I was on anywhere from 1000mg/week of AAS up to about 3000mg/week. Since everyone's body is different, it's really kinda hard to say what someone else's side effects from this kind of thing might be, but I will tell you that I didn't really have many sides at all. Sometimes I would get some acne on my back (typically when discontinuing the high doses and stronger androgens) but it was really something that only I really noticed. I am lucky in regards to sides b/c I can take 3grams of gear a week and not get many adverse effects. If my nipples got kind of itchy (dbol is the only thing that usually makes them that way, but not too bad), I would take some Arimidex and it would go away, or I would stop the dbol (it would usually take 5 or 6 weeks for that to happen, so it was about time to stop the dbol anyway). However, I hear of guys getting gyno on here from 400 or 500 mg/week of test, so I definitely would not suggest that they try a year long cycle.
I got my blood work done 5 weeks after coming off of everything (I took HCG to get my natural test kick started) and everything checked out fine. My red blood cell count was kind of high, but not too bad. Liver values were also slightly out of whack, but this could have been attributed to the intense workout I had the night before the blood was drawn (your AST and ALT levels can be falsely shown as out of range after an intense workout). And surprisingly, my test levels were actually shown to be in the upper range of normal. So, all in all, I faired pretty well considering I was taking AAS for over a year.

Now I guess you want to know what I got out of it. Well, I think it helped to reset my natural bodyweight set point. I think that even if I had been lifting for as many years as I have (10 years religiously), I would probably not weigh more than 250 or 260. I just don't think my body was meant to carry as much naturally. Now I weigh 300. I weighed about 270 when i started on the year long cycle. When I came off of everything I really didn't lose much. I can tell a big difference in the maturity of my muscle. My arms have made a huge improvement in their shape and size in the last year. I have veins in my quads even though I feel like I am fat right now (and I never had seen veins there before), and my overall structure is more developed. I would say that the year long cycle allowed me to bump my natural set point to 295-300lbs from 270lbs. Again, these are just my experiences, so there is no way to really say how someone else might be affected.

After doing the year long cycle (and being frustrated with hitting a plateu of sorts at 300lbs), I have a new philosphy for cycling. I don't think i would suggest this to beginners, but the more experienced may benefit from this. From now on, I will run a base of at least 1000mg/week of test (sometimes going as high as 1750mg/week) for about 24 weeks. I will probably make the first 12 a "bulking" phase, and the last 12 a cutting or possibly just a composition shifting phase (i.e. stay the same weight while slowly getting rid of bodyfat). I have just finished the first 12 week bulking phase, and now I am about to enter the composition shifting phase. I was able to keep my diet clean for my bulking phase, so my bodyfat is sitting at only about 12% or so, so I plan on dropping under 10% but remaining at 300lbs. After the 24 weeks on, I will do HCG and remain clean for about 6 or 8 weeks. Then it is back on for another 24 or so. I really think that Dave Palumbo is on to something when he suggests staying on for longer periods of time (for the more advanced mind you). I really feel like it makes a big difference in the maturity of the muscle. I look bigger now a year later at 300lbs than I did a year ago at 297lbs b/c of the shift in body composition and the maturity of my shape. Again, I would only suggest that those of you who have tried several different compounds and know how your body reacts to them try something like this. It takes alot of experimenting to figure out what is safe, effective, and desirable for each different individual to use and at what doses. Hope this helps answer some of your questions.

Hey butcher, how would you rate the changes from 6 months to 12 months? How were the gains from that point?

i think a year round cycle will shut u down so bad

Dizzle, I would say that I definitely started to look alot better the second six months than the first. As far as overall size goes, I didn't get any huge 25 or 30 pound gains as I went up and down with the levels of AAS, but the muscle quality was alot better. I wouldn't say that I am a naturally lean person (i.e. I have to eat right to stay lean), but the vascularity has stayed with me and I look better b/c of that. That is why I am now going to do the 24on/6off split I described in my first response. The quality gains are better, and I look reasonably good year round this way. Not to say that I want to run out to the pool right now and take my shirt off, but to the non-bodybuilder I probably look pretty freaking good. Again, I attribute this to the muscle maturity more than anything. I think that the 6 off time will give me some time to make sure that my natural test still works, and I can maintain my size. If I am 315-320lbs by this time next year I will be pretty happy, and I think it is very achievable using the routine I outlined.

I forgot to mention in my first post that about 7 months into the year long cycle I did HCG (5000iu every 5 days totaling 15,000 iu). Then I did it again at the 13 month mark.

Like i said before i just got off an 8 month long cycle, using DC's method of coasting, and had great results and have kept almost all of my gains. I dont think that someone should just jump right into being on all year but for someone with experience i see no problem with it if its well thought out and done right.

I tend to lean towards longer cycles about 6 months or longer. I believe you will hold more of your gains the longer you're on (to an extent)there's a good thread that explains Dave Palumbos' set point theory.
I think the most important thing to remember when you are on a long cycle is to try to keep up your htpa. Obviously you will be shut down but there are things you should do to keep this in check (hcg) also I feel that some sort of anti-e should be run throughout the cycle.
The other subject of this is what type of gear to use. IMO when on long cycles I'd try to stay away from drugs that will shut you down long and hard. I think this is most important during the last 2 months of the cycle.
The thrid thing to take care of is your postcycle therapy the standard clomid at 300/1, 100/10, 50/10 probably won't do the job again IMO hcg should be used post cycle along with an extended clomid cycle.


just my .02,

xxxl83

Butcher What kind of work should I get my doctor to do for me before, during and after the cycle.... (Ie what should I ask him to test?)

By The way: Butcher, Skii 96 & xxl83 Thanks for the awsome input :thumbsup:

Well, you will want to run the full liver panel at the least ( I believe it called the Full Metabolic Panel). I also got IGF-1, Natural Testosterone level, Cholesterol (This is called a Lipid Panel), CBC (red and white blood cell count, hemoglobin, etc), T-3 uptake, T-4 (total), PSA (especially if you are older), and a urinalysis. This is pretty much the full battery of tests you can get, and expect to pay a pretty penny unless your insurance covers it. But, they are all pretty important so do as many of them as you can. I would say that I would run them before, 6 months in, and about 6 weeks after recovery. I only ran them after recovery b/c as I said before, I never planned on the year long thing, it just kind of happened. I plan on at least getting my Metablolic Panel and my Test total after I come off of my current 24 week cycle in 12 weeks. So, I guess about every 6 months is good, preferably during the time when you have been off for 6+ weeks or so.

Since you are doing a Full Year, testing your cholesterol, blood cell count, and liver values (metabolic panel) would probably be the most important thing to look at during the middle of the cycle. Obviously your test levels would be way off, so testing them at this point would be a waste of $.

Remember to get the testing done in the AM, after fasting for 12+ hours (I know it really sucks), and do not work out the day before the blood is drawn. This will help prevent a false positive on the liver values, most notably the AST and ALT.

PM HeartDocMD and ask him if these look about right as far as the right tests to look at. Or start a thread with his name in the title so he'll look at it and share his knowledge with the rest of us.

BUMP...I'm very interested in this thread. I'm bumping it so maybe Rickson will put in his .02

Another BIG BUMP here! This threads got me GLUED to the Monitor Im all ears!!! Keep the WEALTH of knowledge flowin!!!!!!!!!!

I just would like to add here On the last thread I brought up a Ex. cycle this was critiqued by many thats cool..... I got that from Dave Palumbo! I spoke with him a 1wk ago over here, he gave a clinic for a select few and I had the privalige to be there..........DUDE hes HUGE!!! I got a great PIC with Him! I asked him about this TOPIC and his opion on Cycle length! He said he only believes in Longer Cycles at NO LESS than 1000mgs!!!!!!!!!!! Disclaimer..(NOT FOR NEWBIES)!!! I was SHOCKED! Not that he would do this but that he suggested I should!!! He replyed to get big and keep your gains you need to be on long enough to have your Body adjust to the NEWLY accuired MASS! AND HCG with no doubt every couple of wks to keep the GONADS in check also Arimidex the entire Cycle!!!!! KEEP this thread goin Ive learned a lot and Apprciate the Experinced Members INPUT!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm very interested in this for a future bulker cycle, does anyone have a cycle like this layed out so I could see it?

ADD MEGA MASS
"Dave Palumbo"
WEEK 1-8
1) 1000mg test cyp or Enan per wk( 300 eod )
2) 300 mg EQ per wk (100mg eod)
3) 400 mg DECA per wk (200mg 2x a wk)
4) GH 4iu's per day (every morning upon waking)
5) Insulin 6iu in moring/ 4iu 5-6 hrs later
6) .5mg ARIMADEX EOD

WEEK 9-16
1) 100mg SUS (250 EOD)
2) 50mgs TREN (EOD)
3) 5-8 Dianbol (per day)
4) CONTINUE GH ( 4iu morning)
5) INSULIN (6iu,4iu)
6) .5mg ARIMIDEX

and for truley advanced
7) IGF-1 @ 10-20mcg imediately after training (30 days on, 2wks off)

AND LISTEN Im not lookin for anyone to tear me apart on there opions of how this is SO, SO.........WRONG its not mine I did not make it Im just passin the opion of "Dave Palumbo"! ANY comments onhow it could be better I think is what we are lookin for HERE..... SO EXPERIENCED GUYS POST away!!!!!!!!!! CRITIQUE IT!!!:) FILL us in!

A single injection of testosterone can completely shutdown the HPTA after 7 days.

-SF

Quote:

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Originally posted by PHATCAT
ADD MEGA MASS
"Dave Palumbo"
WEEK 1-8
1) 1000mg test cyp or Enan per wk( 300 eod )
2) 300 mg EQ per wk (100mg eod)
3) 400 mg DECA per wk (200mg 2x a wk)
4) GH 4iu's per day (every morning upon waking)
5) Insulin 6iu in moring/ 4iu 5-6 hrs later
6) .5mg ARIMADEX EOD

WEEK 9-16
1) 100mg SUS (250 EOD)
2) 50mgs TREN (EOD)
3) 5-8 Dianbol (per day)
4) CONTINUE GH ( 4iu morning)
5) INSULIN (6iu,4iu)
6) .5mg ARIMIDEX

and for truley advanced
7) IGF-1 @ 10-20mcg imediately after training (30 days on, 2wks off)

AND LISTEN Im not lookin for anyone to tear me apart on there opions of how this is SO, SO.........WRONG its not mine I did not make it Im just passin the opion of "Dave Palumbo"! ANY comments onhow it could be better I think is what we are lookin for HERE..... SO EXPERIENCED GUYS POST away!!!!!!!!!! CRITIQUE IT!!!:) FILL us in!

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The cycle is a good one but here are a few things i would critique about it...

1. Why change from enan or cyp to sus mid cycle? Test is test fellas changing from one ester to another will not do shit except fukk up the levels in your blood which you want to be stable.

2. 300mg/wk of eq is barely enough for a beginner IMO. I would suggest nothing less then 400mg/wk if not 600-800 more then likely if you have any experience. So i would throw this out entirely and stick with the deca instead.

3. As for the deca 400mg/wk is a beginner dose, this cycle is for someone with more experience so i would suggest more like 600mg/wk.

4. Their is nothing to jump start this cycle which i feel is necassary. Moving the dbol from weeks 9-16 to wks 1-4 then again wks 8-12.

5. Slin at 4 or 6ius is also a very beginners dosage. An average dose for someone with any experience would be 10iu's 2-3x per day a few days a week ( if going by Chad N's theory). This should also be run 4 wks on and 3-4 wks off IMO.

6. Also if running GH you should be running a small dose (12.5-50mcg/ed) of T-3 to keep your thyroid in check.

7. If running 1g of test u will need more then .5mg of arimidex eod to suppress all the estro JMO. I would suggest .5 -1mg/ed.

8. Lastly 50mg/eod of fina is nothing. That must be upped to at least 75mg/ed if not more. I like the fact that hes using it at the end of the cycle but i would also run some winny along with it, running it 2-3 wks past your last shot of test/deca. Also i dont recommend running tren/deca together for the prog. sides that you could get.

These are just a few things i saw when looking at the cycle.

Here is my current 6 month cycle (I'm half way through with this) and I will be taking 6 weeks off after these 6 months before starting again. I'll use hcg at that point, and then start another 6 monther or so. Blood tests will all be done after the 6 weeks off. Before I post this, please keep in mind that I have quite a bit of experience with the compounds listed, and I know most of you will shit when you see how long and how much of the orals I take, but i've done it before (and gotten liver values, cholesterol, etc checked) and been fine. I know what works and what can be tolerated by my body, but I wouldn't suggest this to people who have not experimented with their own body enough to know what is potentially harmful to them.

First 12 weeks:
Dbol- 100mg/day Week 1-6
Dbol- 60mg/day Week 7-8
Primotest- 1000mg/week Week 1-12
Test Prop- 300mg/week Week 1-10
Anadrol- 100mg/day Week 8-12
Eq- 400mg/week Week 1-10
slin- 16iu/post workout Week 2-8 then off 2 weeks and on for 10-12
HGH- 4iu/morning Week 3-24
I also ran Arimidex for a month after about 6 weeks of the dbol. Dbol is the only thing that ever makes my nipples itch. It's usually not bad, but better safe than sorry.

I am taking a "break" if you will for weeks 13 and 14. During these two weeks I am only going to use 1000mg/week of Primotest.

Second 12 Weeks Will be as follows
Sustanon 250- 250mg on a 2 day on 1 day off split(1000-1250mg/week)
Week 14-26
Eq- 600mg/week Week 14-26
Winny- 100mg/eod or I may do 50mg/day on a 10 on 10 off split (this has worked pretty good for me in the past if you are wondering why I would run it this way) Week 15-22

I will continue the growth, and probably the slin during this time as well. I may throw in some Fina near the end of this as well if I get bored or want to try and harden up a little more. But, if my diet stays clean as I know it will , the winny and eq should do just fine for keeping me hard and more vascular than I already am. Summer is almost here Kids!!!!

Bro thats some seriuos shit!!! So I noticed a few things similar to the Dave Palumbo list Namely GH in the morning! Insulin 10iu your at 16 and not splitin it. EQ is close to the samefirst 12wks. HCG how much, how often and the Arimadex how much for that month, those to items are pretty important comin off that cycle!
The cycle you have outlined is pretty much inline to the other as far as how much , so this is what it takes to get BIG Hummmmm.......
How long did it take you to move up to that calibar of a regimin? Thank you for the wealth of KNOLEDGE and input!!!!!!!

I generally cycle 12-16 weeks on heavier dosages followed by an eight week cruise on just low dose test and then back to another heavier cycle. I don't recommend continually increasing dosages simply because your body needs some kind of break. I would use HCG every four weeks. I would also listen to my body. Monitor your BP and make sure you feel ok. I would use a dbol bridge to come off and insulin to make sure loss at the end of the cycle will be minimized. I would expect to take 4-6 months to recover fully from that cycle.

Fuck Recovery! J/K Rickson.
Phat Cat, I only use HCG when I come off of everything. It's probably a mental thing more than anything, but I don't see much of a reason to use it mid cycle when I am taking a gram+ of test a week. If my HPTA is stimulated by the hcg, it will just be shut right back down b/c of the excess test in my system. (Rickson or anyone else with a good explination as to why you would bother with hcg mid cycle please elaborate; scientific or well thought out logical reasoning would be most appreciated).
My arimidex intake was 1mg/day for 30 days.
My HCG regimen is as follows:
Day 1- 5000iu (SubQ injection all at one time)
Day 6- 5000iu (SubQ injection all at one time)
Day11-2500iu (SubQ injection all at one time)

I will be running Arimidex or Nolvadex for the week before this and for 2 or 3 weeks after it. (obviously during it as well)

How long did it take to work up to this? Quite a while. My first 5 or 6 cycles were all pretty low dose, expecially regarding test. Hell, cycle 4, 5, and 6 had no test in them at all. They were Winny with either Primo, Deca, or Eq. Actually, my sixth cycle did have 250mg/week of Sus in it. (I know, not worth a shit). I gradually increased my test doses over the course of the next couple of cycles. I started to need more to get any gains, and I was always afraid of sides so I never wanted to do high test doses. If you told me 3 years ago that I would be doing 1gram+/week of test, I would tell you you were full of shit. But, luckily I can take that high amount without adverse sides. I would always suggest easing your way into this kind of thing.

I agree with Rickson that a dbol bridge might be useful, as well as slin.

The reason to use HCG is not really for HPTA stimulation but to fight testicular atrophy. Testicular atrophy contributes considerably to the difficulty one has in recovering and so it is a good idea when in a high dose long cycle that one does everything possible to help prevent this from happening. If you don't plan on recovering then most do it for cosmetic purposes.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Rickson
The reason to use HCG is not really for HPTA stimulation but to fight testicular atrophy. Testicular atrophy contributes considerably to the difficulty one has in recovering and so it is a good idea when in a high dose long cycle that one does everything possible to help prevent this from happening. If you don't plan on recovering then most do it for cosmetic purposes.

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W/O having anything scientific to back it up, my balls shrank alot after about 16 wks of being on and HCG blew em back up. And it seemed to help at the end with my recovery along with clomid and tribex.

My nuts really don't shrink much when I am on. They did some on the first cycle I ever took(300mg/week of t-200, and 200mg/week of Norandren), and they shrunk quite a bit after my 3rd cycle which was 500mg/week of Sus. Since then, I can take 1500mg/week of test and they don't really shrink much. Maybe they aren't 100% of their normal size, but I would say at least 85%. So, I guess that's a good thing, huh? Perhaps it also goes to explain why I don't lose much of my gains when i come off. After I take hcg I do notice that they get back the extra 15% or so of their size that was lost, and they hang lower. And I am sure you guys wanted to know all of this about my nuts.:lol:

i am glad to see all the good input on this thread....very informative!

Yes great conversasion! Really helps for me to plan the direction I want to move systematicly, Slow n Steady laying the foundation towards larger Cycles to promote overal body growth and Muscle Maturity to Increase "MY SET POINT" at my bodys' allowing pace! End result 300 lbs of FREAKY PHYSIQUE!!!!!!!!! Only 75lbs to go............... LOL
Thank you to all that participitated .....Sincerly PHATCAT

Quote:

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Originally posted by The Butcher

First 12 weeks:
Dbol- 100mg/day Week 1-6
Dbol- 60mg/day Week 7-8
Primotest- 1000mg/week Week 1-12
Test Prop- 300mg/week Week 1-10
Anadrol- 100mg/day Week 8-12
Eq- 400mg/week Week 1-10
slin- 16iu/post workout Week 2-8 then off 2 weeks and on for 10-12
HGH- 4iu/morning Week 3-24

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I have a few questions and opinions.

Why prop for 10 weeks?
you could go 13-14 to blood levels high up to post cycle therapy.
Why d-bol and prop together?
WHY d-bol 5-8?
Why another 17aa in week 8?
Why 17aa all the way through 12 weeks?
That's going to play hell on your liver.
Why not split your hgh?
Add some hgh to your slin injection post w/o.
100mg of d-bol is overkill.
Slin scear my

JohnnyB

I was kinda thinking the same thing JB. I've always thought and been told when running orals over a longer period of time you need to do an on/off scheme. Like with the dbol or any oral for that matter, 4 wks on 3-4 wks off then repeat, JMO

skii96 I've heard same thing, but I hear 4-6 weeks.

JohnnyB

JB,
I ran the prop for 10 weeks b/c I wanted my total test mg dosage to be at 1300+mg/week, and while I could have done more Primotest, I just decided to do the prop. Plus, it helped to keep my strength up to have that "burst" that prop provided. It's really not much different than running Aratest for 12 weeks, or even Sustanon for that matter. Do you stop taking Sustanon after 3 or 4 weeks just b/c it has Prop in it?

I'm not really following what you are asking in the second line about 13-14. Could you restate that a little clearer?

I don't use dbol as a jump starter as most people on this board seem to think that is all it is good for. I keep gaining a little bit even into week 6 or 7 from it.

The dbol in 7-8 was dropped b/c I like to taper my orals for a week or two instead of coming off cold turkey. Personal preference. I feel like I lose some strength when i go cold turkey, so that's why I make a slight taper.

I threw in the A-50 @ week 8 b/c I like to use A-50 to lean out and stop holding water. Dbol is about the only thing that makes me hold water, so to keep my bodyweight about the same while taking off some water and fat, I switched to the A-50. I probably gained another 4 or 5 pounds of muscle by doing that while at the same time getting leaner. As I said before, I have taken all of these compounds before, and I know what each one does to me personally, so I try and adjust and plan my cycles according to my personal response, as oppposed to what everyone else thinks a certain compound does. Most people on this board would use A-50 as a bulker, but if you ask many Pros or competitors they use it as a way to spare muscle while dieting. Works pretty good too.

Also, as I said before, I have run 17AAs for 12 weeks before without suffering liver damage, so that is why I am not afraid to run them that long. I must stress here that I don't drink alcohol, I don't drink soft drinks, I don't drink coffee, but I do drink 3 gallons of water a day (that is not an exageration). And, I would not suggest that other people run 17AAs that long. Liver damage is another one of those things that is sort of case dependent. One person could get liver damage from 2 weeks of dbol, other people wouldn't notice it at all. Notice not all alcoholics have liver damage even though they make their liver filter poison on a daily basis. It's sort of the same principal here. Again, I am not advocating that others do this!

I tried splitting my GH,(ie AM and PM) but I noticed that it didn't work as well as when I took it in the AM. The school of thought on the AM dosing is that if you inject in the AM, your body has the benefits of the GH all day long where as if you weren't supplementing with GH you would only be getting the benefits of your own natural production at night when you sleep. AM dosing lets you get the benefits in the day, and then at night your body produces it's own. Sounds reasonable to me, and I have noticed it works a little better as far as keeping me lean by doing it that way.

Yes, I have thought about doing the slin/gh post workout, but to be honest with you, there are so many little things that someone can tweak in a cycle like this that it really makes it hard to tell if one thing works better than another. I like to take my GH in the AM, and I workout in the PM, so I just take the GH one time a day and I don't worry about it post workout. It could be that I might get slightly better results from that, so perhaps I will try it some time.

100mg/day of dbol is not overkill if you are 300lbs. I usually take 75mg/day or so when I use the pink thais, so 100mg/day with these Eye Peas wasn't a big deal. Worked just fine, and I didn't get any more sides than I get when I use the Thais. I will say that in my experience, Thais are still the best there is.

And yes, slin can be scary. Not really so much scary as it is annoying/nauseating. I went slightly hypo last night and after consuming a shitload of carbs you end up feeling like dog crap. Not much fun. But, whoever said this shit was going to be a good time?!!!
:lol:

Quote:

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Originally posted by The Butcher
I did it last year, but it was never intended to start that way, and it wasn't exactly laid out like you have said. The least amount I used over the coarse of a year was 750mg/week of test. It was either Primotest, Sustanon, or T400. The highest amount of test I used was about 1600mg/week. I was usually at or above a gram/week of test for 12+ weeks, and then I might come down to 750 for 6 or 8 weeks. Typically when I was in the gram+ range with the test I would be taking an oral (dbol or Adrol) and another anabolic (Deca or Eq) and for awhile I did tren at 100mg/ed. When I dropped the test to a gram or less, I was on Winny and Primobolan. I also took growth for 4 months at the beginning of all of this (4iu/day) when I was on test/dbol/deca.

I know this all kinda looks like it fluctuated, but for all intents and purposes I was on anywhere from 1000mg/week of AAS up to about 3000mg/week. Since everyone's body is different, it's really kinda hard to say what someone else's side effects from this kind of thing might be, but I will tell you that I didn't really have many sides at all. Sometimes I would get some acne on my back (typically when discontinuing the high doses and stronger androgens) but it was really something that only I really noticed. I am lucky in regards to sides b/c I can take 3grams of gear a week and not get many adverse effects. If my nipples got kind of itchy (dbol is the only thing that usually makes them that way, but not too bad), I would take some Arimidex and it would go away, or I would stop the dbol (it would usually take 5 or 6 weeks for that to happen, so it was about time to stop the dbol anyway). However, I hear of guys getting gyno on here from 400 or 500 mg/week of test, so I definitely would not suggest that they try a year long cycle.
I got my blood work done 5 weeks after coming off of everything (I took HCG to get my natural test kick started) and everything checked out fine. My red blood cell count was kind of high, but not too bad. Liver values were also slightly out of whack, but this could have been attributed to the intense workout I had the night before the blood was drawn (yourASTand ALT levels can be falsely shown as out of range after an intense workout). And surprisingly, my test levels were actually shown to be in the upper range of normal. So, all in all, I faired pretty well considering I was taking AAS for over a year.

Now I guess you want to know what I got out of it. Well, I think it helped to reset my natural bodyweight set point. I think that even if I had been lifting for as many years as I have (10 years religiously), I would probably not weigh more than 250 or 260. I just don't think my body was meant to carry as much naturally. Now I weigh 300. I weighed about 270 when i started on the year long cycle. When I came off of everything I really didn't lose much. I can tell a big difference in the maturity of my muscle. My arms have made a huge improvement in their shape and size in the last year. I have veins in my quads even though I feel like I am fat right now (and I never had seen veins there before), and my overall structure is more developed. I would say that the year long cycle allowed me to bump my natural set point to 295-300lbs from 270lbs. Again, these are just my experiences, so there is no way to really say how someone else might be affected.

After doing the year long cycle (and being frustrated with hitting a plateu of sorts at 300lbs), I have a new philosphy for cycling. I don't think i would suggest this to beginners, but the more experienced may benefit from this. From now on, I will run a base of at least 1000mg/week of test (sometimes going as high as 1750mg/week) for about 24 weeks. I will probably make the first 12 a "bulking" phase, and the last 12 a cutting or possibly just a composition shifting phase (i.e. stay the same weight while slowly getting rid of bodyfat). I have just finished the first 12 week bulking phase, and now I am about to enter the composition shifting phase. I was able to keep my diet clean for my bulking phase, so my bodyfat is sitting at only about 12% or so, so I plan on dropping under 10% but remaining at 300lbs. After the 24 weeks on, I will do HCG and remain clean for about 6 or 8 weeks. Then it is back on for another 24 or so. I really think that Dave Palumbo is on to something when he suggests staying on for longer periods of time (for the more advanced mind you). I really feel like it makes a big difference in the maturity of the muscle. I look bigger now a year later at 300lbs than I did a year ago at 297lbs b/c of the shift in body composition and the maturity of my shape. Again, I would only suggest that those of you who have tried several different compounds and know how your body reacts to them try something like this. It takes alot of experimenting to figure out what is safe, effective, and desirable for each different individual to use and at what doses. Hope this helps answer some of your questions.

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awsome, awsome insight...i plan on doing the same soon, i will get my growth in soon and i have been running deca/sust for 10 weeks and now ive switched to t400/eq for the next 10, and i plan on tossing in slin/gh as soon as it comes in...i believe entirely that cycling for longer periods is a great attempt and a very useful one to change body setpoint...ill try to keep things posted...

LMAO Butcher i know the feeling! I read your profile and what not everyone is noticing is that you are 6' 6" and 300lbs, not your average joe. Im am planning out my next cycle which will start June 1st, might as well post it here, its only a rough draft. BTW its only 18 wks long because i am on GH/slin right now and will be on only that til i start this one and will do a show at the end of this cycle.....

GH 4iu's Mon-Fri (Running this for more then 6 months)
wks 1-20 Femara 2.5mg/ed
wks 3-6 Slin 10iu's post w/o mon-fri
wks 1-4, 7-10 Dbol 75mg/ed
wks 1-10 Test enan 2g's/wk
wks 11 and 15 HCG 1000iu's/ed
wks 11-16 Test prop 100mg/ed
wks 11-16 Fina 100mg/ed
wks 13-18 Winny 50mg/ed
wks 15-18 Halo 30mg/ed

Also running T-3 4 wks on 4 wks off dosage depending on how im looking. And rotating in clen/ECA the final 10 wks.

Thats it :)

Butcher,

I agree with alot of what you have stated above and everyone does react different from one another. I hardly ever get bloated reguardless of what I take.
You sound like you've been through your trial and error phases and found what works for you.
That's something I find alot of people need to do for themselves but don't. Esspecially with diet and more specificaly calorie intake.

Anyway I do believe Johnny B and ski made a good piont about the orals but like I said you know what works for you.

About the 13-14 week thing I think johnny B just misread it and thought you came off for those two weeks when you were talking about comming off the slin for two weeks after week 8.

xxxl83

Skii96, your right about not seeing what people's stats are. That's why I get frustrated when i click on other people's profiles and they aren't filled out. How the hell are we supposed to give advice to people if they don't tell us anything about themselves?!!!

BTW, good luck with your show. Out of curiousity, have you run your HCG that way before (ie 1000iu/ed for a week)? I tried that before but was not able to recover from it. That is how I did it when I came off my 3rd cycle of 500mg/week of Sus, and I crashed so hard after that cycle it was pathetic. I've done HCG about 5 different times, and the only way it has ever worked to get me going again was the 3 different intakes of 5000iu (all 5000iu in the same shot instead of spaced out over the week) spaced out every 5 days. I got that schedule from an article by William Llewellyn(sp) (The Anabolics 2000 Author). I'll copy it on here for you guys to look at. In the article he essentially states that you need to take 5000iu every 5 days or so, but he doesn't specifically say to take it all at once, or spaced out

xxxl83, you are correct that I have been my own lab rat to some extent, and this has given me a pretty good insight to how things work for me. Thanks for clarifying JBs question. Assuming that is what he was asking, the only thing I will be on for 13 and 14 will 1gram of Primotest. I actually started the slin again this week (Week 14), but I was off from week 10 or so.

Here's the Llewellyn article:

Understanding Post Cycle “T” Recovery
By William Llewellyn




O.K. You have been on an awesome 4-month cycle of Sustanon and Dianabol. You’ve gained a massive 20 lbs, and are extremely pleased with your results. You can’t stop looking in the mirror. But there is a problem now starting to eat away at you. You are going to run out of steroids very soon (you know you need a break anyway), and your testicles are the size of raisins. Your body is producing less testosterone than a 9-year-old girl, and you are scrambling to figure out what to do to avoid a nasty post-cycle crash that could potentially strip away some of your hard-earned muscle. The opinions on how to restore endogenous testosterone production post-cycle seem to be different everywhere you look. What option is best? Without an understanding of exactly what is going on in your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing the right post-cycle program can be quite confusing. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the role of anti-estrogens and HCG during this delicate window of time, while detailing an effective strategy for their use.



The Axis



The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body’s natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.



Testicular Desensitization


Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.


Post-Cycle LH Levels


Post Cycle Testosterone Levels



Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.



The Role of Anti-estrogens


It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.



HCG


So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.



Finalizing the Program


An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.



Sample Post-cycle Plan:


Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily



In Closing


I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn’t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.


References:

1. Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: Clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, Testosterone and seminal fluid analysis in normal men. J. Mauss, G. Borsch et al. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84

2. Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidogenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1981 Oct;78(10):6309-13

3. Acute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig Cells by Human Chorionic Gonadotropin In-vitro. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 76:4460-3,1079

ECKO 747 Now were gettin what we asked for! Pretty Intence!!!!!!!!!

I didn't miss read the prop, if your running prop, why stop at week 10. If you would run it until 14 your blood levels will be up until post cycle therapy.

If you w/o at night you could be shutting your natural hgh down. Because your body make a melitonin(spelling) that secretes as your going to sleep, that makes you more insulin sensitive, because high insulin in the body will not let your hgh secrete. So I don't know what time you w/o, so I can't say for sure if it is stopping your natural hgh. HGH has a half life of 20-30 minutes, so an am injection will not last all day.

Are you bulking or cutting? You said you use a-50 because it spares muscle when dieting. If you dieting I don't understand the slin.

Just wondering if you had liver values checked after doing 17aa for extended period of time. You said you never had problems, the only way you'll know your having serious problems with your liver is if you become jaundice, by that time your having serious problems.

You said you were using prop as a jump start and that's why I asked, why d-bol and prop. Because d-bol is used for a jump start. That's why I don't understand why more then 4 weeks.

Hey Bro it's your body, you can do what ever you want with it. I was asking because your cycle was unorthodox. I've never seen a cycle like it before. The reason I asked questions is because I wanted to understand your cycle. I still find it unorthodox, but if it works for you go for it Bro. Good luck with your cycle.

JohnnyB

JB, I hope you didn't think I was trying to be an ass or something. Quite the opposite. So, I hope you didn't misread my posts as having attitude.

I stopped the prop at week 10 b/c I ran out of it. Pretty simple. So, I dropped the test to 1000mg/week, using only enanthate. To be honest, at 1gram+ you really aren't going to miss 300mg/week for a couple of weeks.

My post cycle therapy won't begin until after the 6 month period. Did you read it is me doing post cycle therapy after 14 weeks? If so, that is not the case. The reason I didn't understand what you were asking was b/c the wording of your question was a bit confusing.

My workout usually occurs at 6:00PM, and it is rare that I am in bed before Midnight. So, the slin should have pretty much cleared my system by the time I am going to bed. It's usually about 5.5 or 6 hours after my slin shot that I actually go to bed. You are correct, an AM injection will not last all day. But, in all honesty, it probably doesn't really matter when you take your gh shot. If you really want to know the truth, I have gotten the best results (as far as fat burning goes) by taking my shot right before bed. But, it also kind of made sense to me that taking it in the morning (it's usually taken an hour or so after I wake) would be a good idea so you can get that "double" effect of using the supplemental gh as well as your own natural gh that is secreted at night.

As far as bulking or cutting, I am doing a bit of both. My real goal was to put on some quality lean mass. I am pretty happy so far. I'd rather gain 10-15lbs on the scale and have it be all muscle rather than gain 30lbs on the scale but have half of it be fat. I bulked for the first 8 weeks or so, then I started to refine my diet a bit more to help lean out while taking the A-50. Now that I am sitting at 300+, I will use the next twelve weeks to solidify my gains and take off some body fat. I hope to stay right at 300 while dropping my bodyfat gradually. I really only need to lose a couple of % points, so I think it's possible to do it and put on a little muscle at the same time. As far as the slin goes, as long as you don't eat fat 2 hours before, or two hours after (actually I think the rule of thumb is 2 hours before and 1 hour after, but I like to be safe) then you really don't put any fat on. The slin helps my strength, and once again, it will help spare my muscle while I am getting stricter with the diet, and throwing in cardio 3 times a week. I didn't do cardio for the first 12 weeks, but since summer is coming I better do at least some cardio!

Yes, I did have my liver values checked right before this cycle. I got them checked in Mid-December and I waited for the results to come back before I started my cycle in January. No jaundice yet (knock on wood!), so I think I am doing ok. As I stressed before, this is a personal finding, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who hasn't had alot of experience and who isn't really familiar with how their body reacts to different compounds.

I don't think that I said I used prop as a jumpstart. I thought I said that I don't believe in jumpstarts. If I typed otherwise, it was a typo. I don't believe in jumpstarts, so the dbol was used for it's bulking qualities, and the prop was used b/c it's test. That's about it.

Yes, the cycle is a bit unorthodox, but it does seem to be working. I will make sure to post all of the end results in another 3 months. I am pretty happy with the results I have gotten thus far, and I am excited to see how my cycle works for doing the "composition shift" I am trying to do. Stay at 300 and lose bodyfat. Wish me luck. It took everything I had in me to not tear into this burger and fries that someone brought to work today. But, I had my pork chops instead. :frown: