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  1. #1
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    Mmaximus25 spit on gyno and Progesterone myth

    I'm posting a new thead and hope this info becomes circulated more... There is some confusion with estrogens and progesterone I would like to clear up once and for all at the end of this post.

    Progesterone does not cause gyno and I don’t know where I heard that from first, but its time this myth is put to death...
    yourlifesource.com quote "Progesterone has NO feminizing characteristics. Progesterone is an 5-alpha reductase inhibitor -- it helps prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT."

    I made a post on Bask8kase's thread about gyno.
    http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...108#post419108 and the contributing factor in gyno is the mammary gland wants to function due to high levels of prolactin being sent by the pituitary. Prolactin is the hormone that tells the mammary gland to grow and function. And high levels of estrogens cause the pituitary to send the prolactin hormone in response. Just like women suffer from vitalization from high test levels we suffer vise versa with our female glands becoming functional with high estrogen levels.
    Dopergin and bromocriptine is the best treatment for gyno because they suppress the prolactin hormone. But once gyno has set in you will not be able to get rid of it without surgery...
    Yes high amounts of estrogens cause the rise in prolactin and there are a few other glands that release prolactin but number one the pituitary is the active gland in regards to mammary function...
    If taking nolva while on a cycle you will yes block estro receptors but your estrogen levels will become very high, once off your cycle the flood of estrogens can cause a gyno reaction... so a nolvadex post cycle therapy or nolva is taken during and well after or just after... The response is so much better after & during testosterone cycles...But not during high anabolic cycles like deca
    During high test cycles the androgens aren't so weak that the build up of estrogen can harm results...
    The best treatment is Dopergin over Bromocriptine but I feel both works well... If after treatment you still have a lump you really need to take extra measures with anti-aromotizers such as proviron and liquidex... and keep clomid or nolva on hand for any flare ups and post cycle...

    Progesterone: quote yourlifesource.com
    http://www.yourlifesource.com/progesterone-for-men.htm
    Progesterone for Men
    Males make progesterone. They need it to make their testosterone and for the adrenal glands to make cortisone. Males synthesize progesterone in amounts less than women do but it is still vital. You can measure male's progesterone levels, and you'll find that when the woman has this follicle damage I'm talking about, the amount of progesterone she makes is less than that of a male.

    Men with BPH (swelling of the prostate) and other male related problems will appreciate the speed of relief with progesterone cream. Dr. Lee recommends that men use 8 - 12 mg of progesterone daily. Progesterone has NO feminizing characteristics. Progesterone is an 5-alpha reductase inhibitor -- it helps prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT.

    Progesterone may also help men with complexion and increased energy. Progesterone balances the estrogens that build in a man's body. Furthermore, it may be important in the prevention and/or treatment of prostatism and prostate cancer. Dr Lee has had men contact him telling him that as a result of applying progesterone cream to their wife they were seeing that their symptoms of prostatism such as urinary urgency and frequency decreased considerably. Several men with prostate cancer reported that their PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen) level decreased and they have had no progression of their prostate lesions since using the cream themselves. Another man contacted Dr Lee to say his bone metastases are now no longer visible by Mayo Clinic X-ray tests. After reviewing endocrinology books in regard to hormone changes in older men Dr Lee found that progesterone levels drop, estradiol levels rise, and testosterone changes in form in older men. This is significant enough to warrant research to determine if the application of progesterone can be used to prevent prostrate cancer.

    Dr Lee has pointed to research that suggests that too much progesterone in men can prevent sperm maturation possibly acting as a contraceptive. Since both progesterone and testosterone work to build new bone, progesterone can be useful for castrated men (common procedure for prostate cancer) in protecting against osteoporosis as in women.

    #2 progesterone quote: progesterone and estrogen
    http://www.yourlifesource.com/one-progesterone.htm
    Progesterone - A Specific Hormone
    Estrogen - A Class Name


    Taken From a transcript of a Seminar by Dr John R. Lee, M.D.
    Progesterone is a hormone made by men and women. It is a very specific molecule made in women primarily by the ovary and in men by the testes. But is also made by the adrenal gland, is even very likely made by hair follicles and by brain cells. There are receptors for progesterone essentially in every tissue of the body from nerves to brain cells to thyroid cells to muscle cells, fat cells and of course the breast, the ovary and the uterus. So you have to realize that when I say the word progesterone I am talking about that specific hormone. In fact when I decided after 12 years to share this information with my colleges and with the class I was teaching I put it on the cover. That is progesterone, a specific molecular configuration. We make it in our body from cholesterol.

    The reason I emphasize that is the word estrogen does not mean that. Estrogen is a class name. There is no hormone named estrogen. There is estrone, estradiol, estrial. There is about 20-30 different estrogens. Horse estrogen is different from human estrogen and so on. But there is no hormone named estrogen. It is the name of a class like apple is the name of a class. There is no apple named apple, you have Delicious, Pippins, Granny Smith, you've got all these different apples they all have their own name. The same thing with estrogen.

    So this is one thing that bothers doctors. When you get a chance to talk to doctors they will think of progesterone in terms of a class name that there is a bunch of them, Provera and these artificial things are progesterone but they're not. And they'll think of estrogen as a unique thing and it is not, it is a class. They do different things. Estriol you make in large amount only during pregnancy, it doesn't do anything for hot flashes and probably doesn't do anything for maintaining minerals and bones. Estradiol is the only one that has a receptor in bone structure. So there is only one progesterone and all estrogens are not the same.

    #1 estrogens
    http://66.77.148.98/estrogen_progesterone_primer.htm
    What is Estrogen?
    Many women do not realize that 'estrogen' is not an actual hormone, such as testosterone or progesterone, but is the term used to refer to a class of molecules that have estrogen like activity in the body. There are many molecules that are estrogens, but the principal estrogens in a woman are estradiol, estrone, and estriol. It is important to understand this when you are deciding what kind of estrogen replacement therapy you are going to take.

    What do estrogens do, and how do they do it?

    Estrogens circulate throughout the body, and become attached to cells that express the estrogen receptor (ER). Estrogens and the ER function in much the same way as a key and a lock. When the key is placed in a lock the door is opened; when an estrogen locks onto an ER, a series of events occur that mediate the effect that we see in the tissue, such as building up of the lining of the uterus, or keeping the bones from becoming thinner. The difference is that the many different estrogens can lock on to the ER, but each with a different degree of effectiveness and with different effects in different tissues.

    For example, estradiol is the most potent of the estrogens produced by the ovary. A very small amount circulating in the blood can tightly lock onto the ER and cause potent changes in estrogen responsive tissues. Estrone, a metabolite of estradiol is considerably less potent, and estriol a further metabolite of estradiol, is quite weak.
    Last edited by mmaximus25; 04-21-2003 at 02:19 AM.

  2. #2
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    to all bros

    I'm bumping this because I want this to become common knowledge... very common

  3. #3
    skii96's Avatar
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    Nice info!!!

  4. #4
    FCECC2 is offline Anabolic Member
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    what about estradiol?
    you find it in some equine enanthate , it is only for bones structure?
    why put a female hormone in a androgenic compound?

  5. #5
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    I do know that while taking aas you must have some what of a higher estrogen level to achieve optimum anabolic results and this could be a reason for the weak estradiol with in some compounds, but that’s a very good question off hand and I will definitely look into it and see if there is any simple explanation...
    Good one TRLS63

  6. #6
    FCECC2 is offline Anabolic Member
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    i know that this AAS is for horses, so since the compound is 50/50 andro/estro its surely for performance enhancement or for regularisation regardless how badly gyno will affect the animal. gyno is purely a esthetical problem or it can cause some irreversible hormones irregularity, despite boobs grow?
    thanks again for the reply

  7. #7
    Pheedno is offline Respected Member
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    mmaximus, your thread has peaked extreme interest, as I have been a believer of progesterone being a cause for Gyno.

    Now Progesterone is stimulated by LH, which is stimulated by GnRH.

    High levels of Estrogens supress the release of GnRH, making sense that Estrogen is controlled in ratio with Progesterone.

    This first brought interest in me on the Progesterone/Gyno theory.

    Now in the case of taking Fina. Fina causes the secretion of Prolactin. Prolactin decreases Testosterone . The Body produces Estrogens in ratio of Test. More Test= More Estrogens.
    So if prolactin decreases test, that in turn would decrease estrogen production. The decrease in Estrogen production would then allow stimulation of GnRH, thereby stimulating LH, thus producing Progesterone.
    The misconception is that Progesterone causes Feminization(I fell into this misconception)And if it did, then gyno would be a factor from it.

    Now as far as figuring how gyno develops in a man using Fina only. The only way I can figure is that:
    The Fina casues an increase in Prolactin build up, this decreases Testosterone, which leaves Estrogen raised at a higher ratio to test for a period before the body lowers Estrogen production to compensate Test supression.

    This is a topic to study for a while
    Here is another link to an interesting interview from Katherine Dalton M.D.
    that sheds some light on the subject.
    http://www.ijpc.com/_pdf/dalton.pdf

  8. #8
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
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    Mmaximux25,

    This is a great post. You really follow-through with what you start, which says a lot (of good) about you. When you had posted on my thread about this topic, you promised to respond when you had more time to research, and you did exactly that. Thank you.

    You're an asset to this board.



    (xxample) Bump.

  9. #9
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    Thx Pheedno... I know I apprieciate the added info and well put...
    I am begining to wonder how to naturally supress prolactin other than using bromcriptine and dopergin... (Pheedno are you the one that told me about B6???) The sides or dopergin can be painfull with head aches and I only use as treatment now and then for flare ups.
    I do use proviron and nolvadex for contolling major test conversion and to regulating the adipose tissue around my mammary glands which every one should know that the estrogen receptors from the target cells in that tissue have a greater affinity for estrogens than other fat on the body.
    here is a past post and another good site
    http://www.holistic-online.com/Remed...t_estrogen.htm
    Family Tree - Where Do Hormones Come From?

    Hormones, even natural ones, are made, not born. Our bodies create the natural hormones we need from nutrients, with the help of enzymes. Estrogens, androgens, progesterone, and other members of the steroid family can all trace their roots back to a single "ancestor" molecule. It's a fatty substance known as cholesterol!
    Although we spend lot of time and money to devise strategies on how to lower cholesterol in our bodies, cholesterol is actually a vital substance our bodies require for (among other reasons) producing the full range of steroid hormones. No cholesterol, no estrogen, no testosterone . Although the body produces much of the cholesterol it needs in the liver, it is not uncommon for people who go on extremely low-fat, low-cholesterol diets to find that their hormonal balance is disturbed.

    The Steroid Family Tree begins with cholesterol, some of which is converted to the hormone pregnenolone. Pregnenolone, in turn, begets both progesterone and DHEA. Some progesterone and some DHEA are both converted into androstenedione, a major precursor of both estrone and testosterone. Testosterone, the best-known of the "male hormones," can be converted to the "female hormone" estradiol.

    Estrone and estradiol have an interesting relationship. Some estrone is also changed into estradiol, and some estradiol is changed back to estrone. Most of the estrone and estradiol the body produces is quickly converted to estriol. But some estriol can be produced from DHEA or androstenedione without involving estrone or estradiol at all!

    Quote from Stan A. Baldwin Ph.D. via e-mail to myself
    "Estrogens, progesterone and testosterone in the female are produced in both the ovaries and adrenal glands. In males, these hormones are produce in testes and adrenal glands. Progesterone is not "down stream" of either testosterone or estrogen in synthesis order. It can be a precusor to test. or estro. Progesterone is made from pregnenolone, which itself is made from cholesterol. Testosterone can be made from progesterone or by another path. Either way, pregnenolone is a precursor to testosterone. There are multiple steps between preg. and test. Testosterone can be a precursor to estrodiol (an estrogen) but not progesterone. To my knowledge, high levels of testosterone would not increase estrogen or progesterone. You would want to consult with an endocrinologist for a more informed opinion than mine."
    Stan A. Baldwin Ph.D.
    Asst. Professor
    Dept. Chair of Biological Sciences
    Mississippi College
    Box 4045
    Clinton, MS 39058

    Phone: (601) 925-3321
    FAX: (601) 925-3978
    email: [email protected]
    Personal Webpage: http://www.mc.edu/~sbaldwin
    Biology Department Homepage: http://www.mc.edu/campus/academics/BIO/

    I did not explain to him that I was injecting enanthate & propionate into my body. I also did not mention anything about androgenic anabolic steroids . I think we're a little better off as I at one time thought progesterone was bad for us, boy was I wrong.
    Estrogens and how they truly affect us is an area we should try and learn more about, as well as the different effects of specific synthetic Androgens. That said I am now a believer that a synthetic test is the safest AAS to take and that all derivatives have in some way or form a severe handy cap. They are not unsafe I am just trying to say I believe testosterone is the safest. There is no perfect drug but the safest is testosterone, merely because our body is much more accustom to this synthetic due to the similarity of our natural testosterone.
    This changes much of my outlook on long term use. Maybe in another thread we can dwell into AAS and the risk to benefit surrounding each.

  10. #10
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    B8K you sparked a question that had been twisted around enough that myself, you and a whole lot of people just accepted... so I also commend you for your un-denying thirst for knowledge and effort... You and people like Warrior, Pheedno, Hammerhead, Madmax, Cycleon, Rickson, OGP, Silverfox, S2B and nj have made me realize we have a sort of responsibility to try and help the bros here understand more about what is taking place inside their bodies. Even though were not MD's or PhD's between alot of the people here I feel safe In saying we can tackle most issues (I know I left out a whole lot of bros) just gotta type fast cause I'm at work.
    I always say I wish this site were around when I first started.
    Thx bro
    BUMP for the common knowledge thing

  11. #11
    Lift Chief's Avatar
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    Dostinex is also used to suppress prolactin, and with almost no sides as compared to pretty nasty ones that you get with bromo.

    Its downside is that it is very expensive.

  12. #12
    Rickson's Avatar
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    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything Dr. Lee has said but I think it is important that we understand Yourlifesource.com sells progesterone creams. It is also important to understand that no study has been commissioned as of yet on Dr. Lees observations and that he is now retired. I believe (a theory at best) that gyno is caused by a multi receptor activation along with the need for an adequate amount of IGF-1. This has been shown to be the case in many Prostate studies but I have yet to find one specific to a BB's case. I do believe that progesterone increase causes prolactin levels to increase which often results in the gyno like symptoms seen especially in fina where it appears to be most pronounced. Bromo and B6 combat prolactin levels like previously stated and seem to be sufficient in stopping gyno from occurring. There is evidence that when men are in a testicular feminization state that progesterone and estrodial act very much in the way they do in women.

  13. #13
    iron4life79's Avatar
    iron4life79 is offline Retired Moderator
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    so............

    when we speak of progesterone sides, we're really talking prolactin sides, correct?

    if progesterone is a precursor of prolactin, how do we get around the fact that we cant get to the benefit(progesterone) without the detriment of prolactin?

    is this a correct assumption, or am i way off here?

    peace I4L

  14. #14
    CutUp is offline Junior Member
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    Damn Mmax
    You stayed on that research, you put a great deal of effort into that over a long period of time, good info, as always
    bump...

  15. #15
    FCECC2 is offline Anabolic Member
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    estradiol and testosterone compound are very useful in race horses. i read that estrogens hormones are far more potent for increasing bone density than male hormones. since joins and bones are highly stressed in race events, it appear to minimized bones fractures. and i also read that its the same mechanism in humans:

    Bone building effects and other benefits

    The role of DHEA in helping fight osteoporosis in both men and women deserves special discussion. The bone-density increasing action of DHEA has been explained in terms of its two-fold mechanism: anabolic and anti-osteolytic.

    For anabolic (tissue-building) purposes, the bone tissue uses the enzyme aromatase to convert DHEA to estrone. Estrone in turn stimulates osteoblasts, or bone-building cells, to produce more bone tissue. Estrone promotes bone formation in both men and women; testosterone can also be easily converted to estradiol, which is then turned into estrone. The current thinking about sex steroids and bone formation emphasizes the importance of estrogens for both sexes. Ravaglia and Forti, for instance, state, "In contrast to traditional belief, estrogens may be more important than androgens and IGF-1 in male bone metabolism." DHEA is a significant source of estrogens for both men and women. Women in the lowest quartile of estradiol or DHEA-S have been found to have twice the risk of fractures. A French study found that low levels of DHEA-S in women were also related to low muscle strength, independent of age.

    IGF-1 is also involved in bone building, and some studies have found a significant positive correlation between the levels of DHEA-S and IGF-1, as well as an increase in IGF-1 with DHEA use. Finally, some studies have shown that DHEA can lower sex hormone-binding globulin, which leads to higher levels of "free" or bioavailable sex hormones.

    The anti-osteolytic mechanism derives from the ability of DHEA to inhibit pro-inflammatory cytokines such as TNF and IL-6. The levels of these cytokines increase with age. Pro-inflammatory cytokines cause a release of free radicals, which in turn stimulate osteoclasts (bone-destroying cells) to step up the dissolution of existing bone. By inhibiting cytokines such as IL-6, DHEA is able to slow the process of bone breakdown.

    i know its not directly related to gyno but its make you looks at female hormones differently
    Last edited by FCECC2; 04-21-2003 at 06:28 PM.

  16. #16
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    I my eyes its what some call a negative feed back... these hormones directly effect each other and separate functional hormones.
    Ex. if there is a high level of progesterone or testosterone in the body and a lower estrogen situation, either or progesterone or testosterone will convert to two of three different estrogens Estrone, Estradiol or Estriol.
    You also have to look at gyno as being the development of a female characteristic. Just as women look at virilization.
    So you must look at both a women and man to find the answers. Is not as simple as saying well "Prolactin induces lobuloalveolar growth of the mammary gland and secondly stimulates lactogenesis or milk production." But which happen to be my main focus and is true.

    How this happens is though multiple stimuli and inhibin to the pituitary.
    There are hormones saying stop-go stop go all the time.
    Take for instance if we regulate our estrogen too tightly then that will cause a lower level of progesterone and with a high level of testosterone and nothing to stop it from converting into DHT we could have a prostate problem.
    We need estrogens, testosterone and progesterone. But of coarse sense we are causing a high level of test/estrogen and then combat sides by manipulating other glands we have a small issue of hit or miss.

    I am trying to cover the immediate cause and the go backwards into the steroids of the body and the endocrine system. If it will help I will get more than one source of data for the progesterone statement above.

    The endocrine system is so complex and I'm using paraphrased quotes in some cases... so this will be the last one I will give my spit then at least two references. The one thing you must realize is I start from a physiology textbook and then go to the web. So using the textbook I can give page numbers and author but you can't read it first hand (a problem)
    Quote from a Colorado state edu. web site:
    http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hboo...ine/index.html
    [email protected]
    In contrast to what is seen with all the other pituitary hormones, the hypothalamus tonically suppresses prolactin secretion from the pituitary. In other words, there is usually a hypothalamic "brake" set on the lactotroph, and prolactin is secreted only when the brake is released. If the pituitary stalk is cut, prolactin secretion increases, while secretion of all the other pituitary hormones fall dramatically due to loss of hypothalamic releasing hormones.

    Dopamine serves as the major prolactin-inhibiting factor or brake on prolactin secretion. Dopamine is secreted into portal blood by hypothalamic neurons, binds to receptors on lactotrophs, and inhibits both the synthesis and secretion of prolactin. Agents and drugs that interfere with dopamine secretion or receptor binding lead to enhanced secretion of prolactin.

  17. #17
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    Another thing is most studies are not done on humans but animals... Everyone must understand this and I know many of you do, but you must also realize most studies induce the death of the subjects and therefore would be immoral if done on humans... ya know...
    Human studies are rare unless foreign

    I gotta hard work week so this might be the last time this week I can devote any to debate or discussion. Later and thx to all the bros that put their 2 cents in.... much appreciated

  18. #18
    longhornDr's Avatar
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    I have to disagree here.

    Are you trying to say that progesterone has no role in certain presentations of gyno?

    Progesterone is responsible for the differentiation of the alveoli and lobules in estrogen sensitized breast tissue.

    Without progesterone, prolactin has minimal effect on breast tissue. Progesterone must "prime the pump"

    The most convincing evidence for the role of progesterone in fina/deca related gyno is that RU-486 is the most effective treatment.

  19. #19
    still growin is offline Member
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    WOW, What a read. I need a nap now as I am exhausted from reading all this. Excellent info, goes against some of my previous thinking, but I am always open to debate and new theories/realizations. I will have to come back and re-read this in a few hours to absorb some of it and store it in my small disfunctional brain. I see a thread heade to the education threads I do believe!

  20. #20
    Big Rush's Avatar
    Big Rush is offline The Juice Man
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    Originally posted by longhornDr
    I have to disagree here.

    Are you trying to say that progesterone has no role in certain presentations of gyno?

    Progesterone is responsible for the differentiation of the alveoli and lobules in estrogen sensitized breast tissue.

    Without progesterone, prolactin has minimal effect on breast tissue. Progesterone must "prime the pump"

    The most convincing evidence for the role of progesterone in fina/deca related gyno is that RU-486 is the most effective treatment.
    Interesting....longhorn, are you a medical doctor?

  21. #21
    Lift Chief's Avatar
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    Prolactin is the hormone that is actually the cause of gyno- true... but it is only an issue when dealing with steroids that convert to progesterone... so they're linked.

    This whole prolactin problem will only be an issue when you're dealing with fina/deca /drol... as they convert to progesterone not estrogen.

    When on gear that converts to estrogen you won't have to worry about taking any prolactin suppressants... this is an isolated issue that is relevant to only a few types of gear as i understand it.

    Rickson/IFL would you guys agree?
    Last edited by Lift Chief; 04-22-2003 at 12:33 PM.

  22. #22
    Lift Chief's Avatar
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    I think when people say progesterone gyno they are just referring to the hormone that differentiates their gear from that gear which converts to estrogen... even though progesterone is not the exact cause of gyno it is highly correlated with prolactin, which does cause gyno.

  23. #23
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    LC, Progesterone isn't down stream though.... testosterone does not convert to progesterone and even though we are dealing with derivitieves of test the human body wont change how progesterone is synthisized from pregnenolone from cholesterol...
    Its the other way around... progesterone being the step before both estrogens and testosterone and its a one way street with progesterone. Progesterone is synthesized from cholesterol in the body by different glands all over... there isn't a hormone that converts into progesterone...
    That also goes for test. Estrogen cannot convert into test but testosterone can be converted to estrogen with in different estrogen target cells
    Neither can convert into progesterone... but progesterone can convert into test and then into estrogen depending on which imbalance the body is trying to fix...

    I want to look into Longhorns post though I don’t have the breast cut a way diagram in my head but I will check this out tonight... I'm pressed for time...
    Last edited by mmaximus25; 04-22-2003 at 03:11 PM.

  24. #24
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    LC something from Stan Baldwin at the bottom,requoted from above

    The amount of effort by all is so much appreciated. I am interested in the finding the cause and the added info and debate is wonderful.

    Originally posted by mmaximus25

    here is a past post and another good site
    http://www.holistic-online.com/Remed...t_estrogen.htm
    Family Tree - Where Do Hormones Come From?

    Hormones, even natural ones, are made, not born. Our bodies create the natural hormones we need from nutrients, with the help of enzymes. Estrogens, androgens, progesterone, and other members of the steroid family can all trace their roots back to a single "ancestor" molecule. It's a fatty substance known as cholesterol!
    Although we spend lot of time and money to devise strategies on how to lower cholesterol in our bodies, cholesterol is actually a vital substance our bodies require for (among other reasons) producing the full range of steroid hormones. No cholesterol, no estrogen, no testosterone . Although the body produces much of the cholesterol it needs in the liver, it is not uncommon for people who go on extremely low-fat, low-cholesterol diets to find that their hormonal balance is disturbed.

    The Steroid Family Tree begins with cholesterol, some of which is converted to the hormone pregnenolone. Pregnenolone, in turn, begets both progesterone and DHEA. Some progesterone and some DHEA are both converted into androstenedione, a major precursor of both estrone and testosterone. Testosterone, the best-known of the "male hormones," can be converted to the "female hormone" estradiol.

    Estrone and estradiol have an interesting relationship. Some estrone is also changed into estradiol, and some estradiol is changed back to estrone. Most of the estrone and estradiol the body produces is quickly converted to estriol. But some estriol can be produced from DHEA or androstenedione without involving estrone or estradiol at all!

    Quote from Stan A. Baldwin Ph.D. via e-mail to myself
    "Estrogens, progesterone and testosterone in the female are produced in both the ovaries and adrenal glands. In males, these hormones are produce in testes and adrenal glands. Progesterone is not "down stream" of either testosterone or estrogen in synthesis order. It can be a precusor to test. or estro. Progesterone is made from pregnenolone, which itself is made from cholesterol. Testosterone can be made from progesterone or by another path. Either way, pregnenolone is a precursor to testosterone. There are multiple steps between preg. and test. Testosterone can be a precursor to estrodiol (an estrogen) but not progesterone. To my knowledge, high levels of testosterone would not increase estrogen or progesterone. You would want to consult with an endocrinologist for a more informed opinion than mine."
    Stan A. Baldwin Ph.D.
    Asst. Professor
    Dept. Chair of Biological Sciences
    Mississippi College
    Box 4045
    Clinton, MS 39058

    Phone: (601) 925-3321
    FAX: (601) 925-3978
    email: [email protected]
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    I did not explain to him that I was injecting enanthate & propionate into my body. I also did not mention anything about androgenic anabolic steroids . I think we're a little better off as I at one time thought progesterone was bad for us, boy was I wrong.
    Estrogens and how they truly affect us is an area we should try and learn more about, as well as the different effects of specific synthetic Androgens. That said I am now a believer that a synthetic test is the safest AAS to take and that all derivatives have in some way or form a severe handy cap. They are not unsafe I am just trying to say I believe testosterone is the safest. There is no perfect drug but the safest is testosterone, merely because our body is much more accustom to this synthetic due to the similarity of our natural testosterone.
    This changes much of my outlook on long term use. Maybe in another thread we can dwell into AAS and the risk to benefit surrounding each.

  25. #25
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    Lack of Role of Prolactin in Gynecomastia , from Williams Textbook of Endocrinology, 10th Ed.

    "Plasma prolactin levels are usually normal in men with gynecomastia of diverse causes, and men who have prolonged elevation in plasma prolactin secondary to use of psychotropic drugs do not commonly have gynecomastia. Consequently, prolactin is not believed to play a direct role in the disorder. This conclusion is in keeping with the fact that prolactin is not a growth hormone for the breast. Furthermore, when gynecomastia develops in men with prolactin-secreting tumors of the pituitary gland and high plasma prolactin levels or in men taking psychotropic agents, the gynecomastia is probably the consequence of secondary testicular failure as a result either of the effects of the tumor mass or of inhibition of LH secretion by prolactin."

    Prolactin is not a growth hormone for the breast, so at best it is only a complicating factor in deca /fina gyno.

    Attached pic from harrison's
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  26. #26
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    Originally posted by Lift Chief
    Prolactin is the hormone that is actually the cause of gyno- true... but it is only an issue when dealing with steroids that convert to progesterone... so they're linked.

    This whole prolactin problem will only be an issue when you're dealing with fina/deca /drol... as they convert to progesterone not estrogen.

    When on gear that converts to estrogen you won't have to worry about taking any prolactin suppressants... this is an isolated issue that is relevant to only a few types of gear as i understand it.

    Rickson/IFL would you guys agree?

    well,
    i would have agreed bro.....but these guys are mixing test levels(estrone, estradiol) into the equation also, so now to be honest, i'm a little confused. all these studies are very nice, and i'm trying to get the most out of them, but some are more confusing than even i can follow........

    as for the drugs you mentioned, this is a definite "yes". the prolactin/progesterone response from these aas is significant. i would venture to say that if youre running these particular compounds, youre in line for a prolactin induced response.......if youre prone.

    peace I4L

  27. #27
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    LonghornDr

    GnRH stimulates secretion of LH, which in turn stimulates gonadal secretion of the sex steroids testosterone , estrogen and progesterone. In a negative feedback loop, sex steroids inhibit secretion of GnRH and also appear to have direct negative effects on gonadotrophs.

    I am confused how LH being stimulatied or inhibited is part culparate. The reason I can’t get away from prolactin is the fact that is stimulates growth in the mammary.

    I think the answer is somewhere but I can’t help but think a high level of estrogens and testosterone is stimulating and inhibiting GnRH causing screwed up hormonal messages to be sent in reaction from pituitary...

    I know prolactin is not a growth hormone for the breast but it is yet another stimulating hormone for the mammary and many other glands. A hormone that stimulates growth through function

    This has always been complex, no denying... but can we at least say progesterone is not a direct factor and the statement of progesterone induced gyno is false... maybe... common throw me a bone LonghornDr....
    I know this isn't going to be a sure answer but can we try and remove misconception with understanding... cause I sure would like to know more about how gyno happen becasue I have it in my left pec... ya know
    Last edited by mmaximus25; 04-22-2003 at 05:03 PM.

  28. #28
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    The more I have looked into this the more I believe that Prolactin does not cause true gyno (breast tissue growth). However I believe that increased prolactin does cause some swelling, nipple tenderness, and milking. I think that these gyno like symptoms are often what people classify as gyno especially from fina. I think for most people taking bromo or high doses of b6 will aleviate these symptoms and are thus effective treatments.

    I do believe that Progesterone in the right environment with estrogen and sufficient IGF-1 levels can cause tissue growth. This has been shown in prostate studies. I believe it to be the same in breast tissue however as we all know this is just a hypothesis. Until somebody test BB's on the effects of progesterone aromatization on breast tissue growth we can only go by trial and error.

    Good discussion and I would love to see some more info and theories on this topic.

  29. #29
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    Originally posted by Pheedno
    So if prolactin decreases test, that in turn would decrease estrogen production. The decrease in Estrogen production would then allow stimulation of GnRH, thereby stimulating LH, thus producing Progesterone.
    The misconception is that Progesterone causes Feminization(I fell into this misconception)And if it did, then gyno would be a factor from it.
    http://www.ijpc.com/_pdf/dalton.pdf
    From me: GnRH stimulates secretion of LH, which in turn stimulates gonadal secretion of the sex steroids testosterone , estrogen and progesterone. In a negative feedback loop, sex steroids inhibit secretion of GnRH and also appear to have direct negative effects on gonadotrophs.

    This is in normal people.... but we are using AAS so...
    I need to use these posts as examples for my theory... I basically in a simple way contribute gyno to high estrogens...
    OK I take it we all agree that our bodies operate like a negative feed back system, like a loop.
    Progesterone is through synthesis of pregnenolone synthesized from cholesterol and can be converted to test and then estrogens.
    Estrogens at such a high levels will have a negative feed back to the pituitary causing GnRH stimulation which in turn will cause LH to stimulate the gonad but since we have been injecting synthetic test into our bodies the Pituitary stops getting readings from our gonads and the only production being made in the testes is progesterone which in turn notices the imbalance of testosterone over estrogens and freely converts into two of three estrogens... Then GnRH stimulation from estrogens and testosterone will cease because of high levels of both, but because test is consistently being dosed the level of progesterone sees fit to convert solely into estrogens every time to create balance... This in turn also leaves us with low progesterone so now we have testosterone converting into not only estrogens but DHT... """Progesterone is an 5-alpha reductase inhibitor -- it helps prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT."""

    Gyno is a result of two hits a flood of estrogen affecting the high affinity adipose tissue around the mammary and causing the pituitary to release the stimulating hormone prolactin... With out prolactin the mammary will not begin to develop to a functioning state. But I believe this happens only in the beginning and end of a cycle. I say this because these are the two points where the Hypothalamus can affect the pituitary in an irregular way... Once shut down I believe the Pituitary get high feed back from both estrogens and test making it null and void...

    If blockers and aromotizers are used this should head off the two hits... ok that’s just my theory... I'm not a PhD or MD and I know that it's filled with a shit load of holes but I'm spiting it out as my thought...
    I may have to edit because I might have looped up my own theory...
    Last edited by mmaximus25; 04-22-2003 at 11:17 PM.

  30. #30
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    Wouldnt it be safe to say that elevated levels of any or all three (progesterone/prolactin/estogen) may (depeding on the person) cause gynecomastia to occur?

    This is what I had thought for a long time. When i had blood work done for my gyno-removal, I know the Doc tested my estrogen and progesterone levels (not sure about prolactin)

  31. #31
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    This is a great read, but based on what has been said, I still am unsure if bromo is needed in place of nolva when using fina/deca /drol.

    If this "Prolactin is not a growth hormone for the breast, so at best it is only a complicating factor in deca/fina gyno" is true, then estrogen inhibitors should prevent gyno, right?

  32. #32
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    A question to you Sig... Have you had gyno symptoms other than adipose tissue around your nipple? I mean can you feel a pea size or lima bean size lump underneath your nipple.

    Bromo and Dopergin have been useful to me in reducing the size of the gyno in me left pec.
    I use nolvadex with every cycle to combat further growth.
    I guess what I'm getting at is.
    If you are trying to prevent gyno but do not have it, then use your estrogen blocker's and anti-aromotizer's (stopping the majority of test conversion into estrogens)during appropriate cycles.

    If you’re dealing with gyno use estro blockers and anti-aromotizers during cycles and treat the issue after every cycle with bromo or Dopergin.

    Long term use of bromocriptine or Dopergin could be painful with migraines and vomiting, so be careful and use bromocriptine as a treatment not a preventative. You should be able to utilize liquidex and nolvadex to prevent and always have post cycle care

  33. #33
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    As a note: PROGESTERONE does NOT, I repeat NOT come into
    play with Fina at all. It only becomes into play when you're
    trying to inhibit prolactin synthetically.

    The only thing that can combat Fina-induced Gyno is:

    1. 2.5mgs Bromocriptine broken down to 1.25mgs 2X/day
    AM and PM.

    Thats it.

    No Vitex/Nolva/Clomid/Arimidex or whatever. They don't
    work for Fina.

    hey guys i got that off another forum http://www.steroidology.com/forum/showthread/t-828.html ......since the subject was on PROGESTERONE i thought i would share but is that true that only Bromocriptine will stop gyno with fina and another thing is in the drug profiles on A.R. it says fina rarely causes gyno so should it be a high concern when taking fina

  34. #34
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    brain

    I haven’t looked into long term use of dopamine antagonists. I can only speak from experience that I began to have migraine headaches... This could be attributed to the dosage though I was told later that lisurde is stronger than bromocriptine and the .2mg tab I was taken should have been broken in quarters and .05mg consumed once or twice a day.

    Dopergin is very strong. I want to look into the link you put up brain as I believe prolactin is much more the contributing factor in terms of gyno period.
    I've never used Fina... I maintain that my gyno came from a flood of estrogens in my body due to an estrogen blocker (nolvadex ) being used improperly and without adding or primarily using an anti-aromotizer (proviron ). I ran out of the blocker and along with my high test the high estrogens bit me in the ass…

  35. #35
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    Absolutely amazing thread!

    I'm still a bit confused as every theory is being based on Fina.

    Can Deca give a person gyno while still taking Arimidex ? Whether it being fat around the nipples or a small lump.
    Last edited by Money Boss Hustla; 05-18-2003 at 01:51 AM.

  36. #36
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    Bump.

  37. #37
    mmaximus25 is offline Senior Member
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    Brain, Money Boss Hustla

    http://www.steroidology.com/forum/showthread/t-828.html

    That is a very good article post. There you have a good view of the advantages of bromo and the disadvantages of chronic use of the drug.

    I am beginning to wonder if all problems stem from shutting down our hpta. There are so many counter measures for this and that but no one is exact and everyone is genetically different.
    Some guys don’t even get gyno from deca on the other hand some guys read 1200 ng/dl T serum levels when there 18 @ 6'5" 240lb already.

    Shutting down out HPTA for men is like going into menopause for women accept we are knowingly doing so... or I hope we are all knowingly doing so...

    When doctors prescribe HRT treatment they control your dose by reading your serum levels from time to time...

    I wonder if low dose cycles and keep HPTA functional is probably the best way to go.

    Or do a high dose cycle and have all your counter measures in place for during and post then creep into a low dose typical environment.

    As far as using armidex/liquidex as an anti-aromotizer to stop test from converting into estrogens it works really well but you will still suffer from HPTA shut down during deca cycles.

    I think there might be a better use for Clomid treatment during a cycle as well as after. (Although I prefer Nolvadex after)
    After I’m done looking into it I will post my findings…
    Later Bros...

  38. #38
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    Re: Brain, Money Boss Hustla

    Originally posted by mmaximus25
    After I’m done looking into it I will post my findings…
    Later Bros...
    I await for your findings.

  39. #39
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    Well when I first started reading this I was happy that progesterone doesn't cause gyno but more I read to finish has something to do with prolactin instead. I've never cycled but plan on doing test 500mg and deca 300mg a week and I have some nolvadex but nothing for deca. Has anyone on this board taken deca alone and got gyno from it?

  40. #40
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    This thread is a shining example of why AR is the best board on the net. Good job mmaximus25.

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