Another "F"ing Nolva question!

[BIG TEXAN]

Ok, I did the search and all that came up about nolva was for using it against gyno. Well my question is about using it post cycle instead of clomid. A source of mind has nolva alot cheaper than clomid. Now, using it post cycle should it work just as well as clomid and also in what dosage cause I know with clomid you do the typical 300/100/50 split but I don't have an idea where to startwith the nolva. Any thoughts on the matter?

[latasaurus]

nolvadex doesn't effect the gonadotropin in the testes . they are what helps your body produce testosterone again.clomid is much better for this .nolvadex only blocks the estrogen receptors .this will keep your estrogen levels down but will not aid in boosting your bodies natural testosterone.if you have insurance go to a toxocologist and have bloodwork done tell him what you've done and see if you can get him to give you a bottle of hcg .

[symatech]

stick with the clomid post cycle. Also, I would not use the hcg . It shuts down your natural test production too. so using it post cycle is useless; it will only take more time to fully recover. most tend to use it midway through a cycle.

[BIG TEXAN]

Yeah I know about the hcg ....just wasn't sure about trying the nolva. Just the price difference kinda git my hopes up is all. But not gonna risk any gains I make just to save a few bucks.

[Lift Chief]

Yes- you can use nolva instead of clomid- some people prefer this!

[Sicilian30]

I personally would do both but surely if I had a choice it would be clomid instead of Nolv. ON this cycle I plan on doing both..

[latasaurus]

hcg doesn't shut down your natural test production GO READ!!!IT IS USE TO JUMPSTART IT BACK UP.a friend of mine i train has a doctor who helps him with anti e's and monitors his blood (test levels ,liver values ,and estrogen levels .when my friend first went to see him he was post cycle and his test lvls were at 150 anyone who knows anything will know this is way below normal .normal is 1000 or better for a 20 yo male .he gave him a 10 cc bottle of HCG to take 1000 iu's ed for 10 days .after 5 days he felt much better when he went back for more bloodwork his levels were at 3200.this doctor is one of the top toxocologists in the country and my friend goes to him once every 2 to 3 weeks for bloodwork .tell him hcg will shut down your natural test.

[BIG TEXAN]

I normally use hcg the last week of my cycle and follow up with clomid but a buddy has nolva at alot better price than the clomid and have heard of people using it instead of clomid. I'm just looking for anyone with either experience or if they know this to be true or not and if it is ok to take nolva instead of clomid at what dosage?

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by BIG TEXAN
I normally use hcg the last week of my cycle and follow up with clomid but a buddy has nolva at alot better price than the clomid and have heard of people using it instead of clomid. I'm just looking for anyone with either experience or if they know this to be true or not and if it is ok to take nolva instead of clomid at what dosage?

20mg of nolvadex is roughly equivalent to 50mg of clomid.

So do
60mg of nolva day 1
40mg day 2-12
20mg day 13-28

something along those lines.

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by latasaurus
hcg doesn't shut down your natural test production GO READ!!!IT IS USE TO JUMPSTART IT BACK UP.a friend of mine i train has a doctor who helps him with anti e's and monitors his blood (test levels ,liver values ,and estrogen levels .when my friend first went to see him he was post cycle and his test lvls were at 150 anyone who knows anything will know this is way below normal .normal is 1000 or better for a 20 yo male .he gave him a 10 cc bottle of HCG to take 1000 iu's ed for 10 days .after 5 days he felt much better when he went back for more bloodwork his levels were at 3200.this doctor is one of the top toxocologists in the country and my friend goes to him once every 2 to 3 weeks for bloodwork .tell him hcg will shut down your natural test.

You're right. It won't shut down your natural test as long as it's administered correctly.

[BIG TEXAN]

Hey I appreciate it Little Chief.

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by BIG TEXAN
Hey I appreciate it Little Chief.

Haha- that's LIFT chief

[latasaurus]

i have to disagree with you lift chief nolvadex blocks estrogen receptors and is usually prescribed to women with breast cancer.clomid is used as a firtility drug for women trying to have children they are not the same at all nor do the react the same in the body .the purpose we use nolvadex for is to aid in prevention of gynocomastia .clomid is used to help our bodies own test lvl to rebound post cycle and this also heps to defend against gyno.

[BIG TEXAN]

Originally posted by Lift Chief


Haha- that's LIFT chief

My bad brother! "Lift Chief".....ok, logged in for future use.

[mmaximus25]

Originally posted by latasaurus
the purpose we use nolvadex for is to aid in prevention of gynocomastia .clomid is used to help our bodies own test lvl to rebound post cycle and this also heps to defend against gyno.

Not sure where you get your info bro..??
I made a post about gyno very in-depth. and the number one contributing factor in gyno is the mammary gland wants to function due to high levels of prolactin being sent by the pituitary. Dopergin and bromocriptine are the best defense against gyno because they suppress the prolactin hormone. Yes high amounts of estrogens cause the rise in prolactin and there are a few other glands that release prolactin but number one the pituitary is the active gland in regards to mammary function...
and two... if taking nolva while on a cycle you will yes block estro receptors but your estrogen levels will become very high, once off your cycle the flood of estrogens can cause a gyno reaction... so a more often post cycle therapy of nolva is taken during and well after or just after... The response is so much better after & during testosterone cycles... because post cycle levels of estrogens wont be so high because the ratio of estro to T is now significantly lower... during high test cycles the androgens aren't so weak that the build up of estrogen can harm results...
my post on gyno:
http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...108#post419108

If your gonna use nolva use it as a post cycle therapy or along with bromo or dopergin during a cycle.

if worried about gyno use an anti aromo like proviron or liquidex to stop conversion from the start...

Big Texan read this It a good post from a good bro... I dont and have never used clomid for post cycle... If this doesn't explain I can break it down for you...

http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...threadid=41771

http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...348#post449348


preview
Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

[Rayman]

Thanks mmaximus25.

Can someone please say Amen?

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by mmaximus25


Not sure where you get your info bro..??
I made a post about gyno very in-depth. and the number one contributing factor in gyno is the mammary gland wants to function due to high levels of prolactin being sent by the pituitary. Dopergin and bromocriptine are the best defense against gyno because they suppress the prolactin hormone. Yes high amounts of estrogens cause the rise in prolactin and there are a few other glands that release prolactin but number one the pituitary is the active gland in regards to mammary function...
and two... if taking nolva while on a cycle you will yes block estro receptors but your estrogen levels will become very high, once off your cycle the flood of estrogens can cause a gyno reaction... so a more often post cycle therapy of nolva is taken during and well after or just after... The response is so much better after & during testosterone cycles... because post cycle levels of estrogens wont be so high because the ratio of estro to T is now significantly lower... during high test cycles the androgens aren't so weak that the build up of estrogen can harm results...
my post on gyno:
http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...108#post419108

If your gonna use nolva use it as a post cycle therapy or along with bromo or dopergin during a cycle.

if worried about gyno use an anti aromo like proviron or liquidex to stop conversion from the start...

Big Texan read this It a good post from a good bro... I dont and have never used clomid for post cycle... If this doesn't explain I can break it down for you...

http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...threadid=41771

http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...348#post449348


preview
Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

You just saved me a lot of typing. Thanks

Oh and it is debatable whether to use clomid or nolvadex post cycle... many people with a lot of expertise/experience have debated this exact issue to a standstill- with studies backing up the use of each compound. I would use both.

[symatech]

if you use hcg post cycle it will take you longer for your natural test levels to recover. i suggest you go read

peace

[latasaurus]

symatech...how do you figure and where did you get your info on the hcg .it is common knowledge that you take it post cycle to help the bodies natural test recovery. and you basically said what i said in my post you just typed more.i agree that you should take nolvadex post and during your cycle to help prevent gyno so why are you asking me where i get my info from mmaximus

[mmaximus25]

Originally posted by latasaurus
symatech...how do you figure and where did you get your info on the hcg .it is common knowledge that you take it post cycle to help the bodies natural test recovery. and you basically said what i said in my post you just typed more.i agree that you should take nolvadex post and during your cycle to help prevent gyno so why are you asking me where i get my info from mmaximus

It’s a debate of anti-e's, or gyno prevention....why an anti-e during your cycle?
Your gyno prevention statement with nolvadex is not the way to go... nolvadex and clomid or alone should be used as post cycle therapy for HPTA...

The best gyno prevention drugs are bromocriptine or Dopergin combined with proviron or liquidex...Proviron or liquidex should suffice... if you go to the thread I posted it will explain why liquidex and bromo are choice...
you must understand the two areas of notice from gyno are the growth and function of the mammary gland and the adipose tissue around it...
stopping the function and reducing the esrtogen conversion is where you want to be... you could take a small dose of nolva to add, but then all that money... just have the glands removed...
That’s what I'm saying... why should someone be trying to get an anti-e during a cycle when they should be trying to get an anti-aromo...
Secondly
Nolvadex or clomid taken during a cycle will cause problems if you’re on a higher anabolic lesser androgenic AAS.
Kids here need to understand the correct info... or better choice and not get things mixed up all the time... that’s why I asked where you got your info...
You may understand what I'm saying but slipping up with info as I have also done in the past can cause some newbie to make a mistake

Nolvadex, yes is an anti-estro blocker but not the choice for gyno prevention because of associated issues with AAS ratio relating to estrogens/androgens... an anti-aromo and small dose of bromo or dopergin are the best choices to combate gyno and gyno prevention

If and an only if in my eyes to save money use nolvadex as a gyno preventor but you must be on a high androgenic cycle... not a high anabolic...

[symatech]

http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...t=hcg+recovery

heres one scroll down some to madmax's post. I'll try and dig up some more later on.

peace

[Terinox]

While you guys are debating this, I got a small question.

For the cycle which I am on right now, I plan on doing the usual Clomid therapy, three weeks after Sus (one day after Winny), and i'll be taking it the usual 300/100/50 style. However, I also have lots of Nolvadex pills left over, about 70 of them. So I was thinking of taking about 20 pills, cutting them in half so they become 10mg each, and taking them for about 40 days, near the end of the cycle, and through Clomid therapy. Will this help? Just 10mg mind you.

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by mmaximus25


It’s a debate of anti-e's, or gyno prevention....why an anti-e during your cycle?
Your gyno prevention statement with nolvadex is not the way to go... nolvadex and clomid or alone should be used as post cycle therapy for HPTA...

The best gyno prevention drugs are bromocriptine or Dopergin combined with proviron or liquidex...Proviron or liquidex should suffice... if you go to the thread I posted it will explain why liquidex and bromo are choice...
you must understand the two areas of notice from gyno are the growth and function of the mammary gland and the adipose tissue around it...
stopping the function and reducing the esrtogen conversion is where you want to be... you could take a small dose of nolva to add, but then all that money... just have the glands removed...
That’s what I'm saying... why should someone be trying to get an anti-e during a cycle when they should be trying to get an anti-aromo...
Secondly
Nolvadex or clomid taken during a cycle will cause problems if you’re on a higher anabolic lesser androgenic AAS.
Kids here need to understand the correct info... or better choice and not get things mixed up all the time... that’s why I asked where you got your info...
You may understand what I'm saying but slipping up with info as I have also done in the past can cause some newbie to make a mistake

Nolvadex, yes is an anti-estro blocker but not the choice for gyno prevention because of associated issues with AAS ratio relating to estrogens/androgens... an anti-aromo and small dose of bromo or dopergin are the best choices to combate gyno and gyno prevention

If and an only if in my eyes to save money use nolvadex as a gyno preventor but you must be on a high androgenic cycle... not a high anabolic...

Bromo is for progesterone induced gyno, why are you telling people to use it as a regular anti-e- to combat standard estrogen issues?

Bromo would be "possibly" needed for fina/deca /drol... and anything else that converts to progesterone. If these are not part of your stack a typical estrogen blocker like l-dex/femara/aromasin would be more than sufficient.

Also- nolvadex at 10mg ED would be a fine anti-e to run on low dose cycles. It would be a cheap way to block most estrogen from binding to receptors and would also reduce some water retention.

Arimidex or liquidex would be preferred, but nolvadex would suffice on lower dose cycles.

I have used nolva at 10mg ED on 500mg of test and that was more than enough to control any gyno issues and reduce water retention slightly.

[mmaximus25]

Originally posted by Lift Chief


Bromo is for progesterone induced gyno, why are you telling people to use it as a regular anti-e- to combat standard estrogen issues?

Bromo would be "possibly" needed for fina/deca /drol... and anything else that converts to progesterone. If these are not part of your stack a typical estrogen blocker like l-dex/femara/aromasin would be more than sufficient.

Also- nolvadex at 10mg ED would be a fine anti-e to run on low dose cycles. It would be a cheap way to block most estrogen from binding to receptors and would also reduce some water retention.

Arimidex or liquidex would be preferred, but nolvadex would suffice on lower dose cycles.

I have used nolva at 10mg ED on 500mg of test and that was more than enough to control any gyno issues and reduce water retention slightly.

Go to this thread read my post and then start from the very top with B8K's...

It is tiresome to rewrite posts over again as many here would agree...
After reading this thread if you would like to start a debate... there will need to be reference citing... I mostly get my info from text books and will find second and third source via the internet...

Did anyone read those links I post the first time...????????????????????

I give clinical definition of bromocriptine and dopergin in my posts in the past and the link above explains my statments...........so please read then come back and give your thoughts...
"bromo"
http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Profs/Dat...riptinetab.htm
"Dopergin"
http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Profs/Dat...opergintab.htm

If you read my posts... I'm not saying to use bromo as an anti-e but as a prolactin supressant... big difference
please read before responding...
this is about physiology and I can go into more detail if you dont understand...

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by mmaximus25


Go to this thread read my post and then start from the very top with B8K's...

It is tiresome to rewrite posts over again as many here would agree...
After reading this thread if you would like to start a debate... there will need to be reference citing... I mostly get my info from text books and will find second and third source via the internet...

Did anyone read those links I post the first time...????????????????????

I give clinical definition of bromocriptine and dopergin in my posts in the past and the link above explains my statments...........so please read then come back and give your thoughts...
"bromo"
http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Profs/Dat...riptinetab.htm
"Dopergin"
http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Profs/Dat...opergintab.htm

If you read my posts... I'm not saying to use bromo as an anti-e but as a prolactin supressant... big difference
please read before responding...
this is about physiology and I can go into more detail if you dont understand...

LOL- i did read your links, actually, but i find your way of posting technical information somewhat convoluted and quite confusing.

I'm well aware bromo should be used for prolactin suppression, but what i do not see is why you're recommending people to use it during cycles with no progesterone issues.

I understood what bromo did before reading the links you've so kindly posted.

[mmaximus25]

There is no such thing as progesterone induced gyno... What issue are you talking about... other than we need progesterone....
And because we screw with our estrogens and manipulate our endocrine system we have a lack there of...
Progesterone a specific hormone that we need.... So do not understand what you mean by progesterone issues.

The reason I say the best combat to people that have gyno or are trying to prevent it is an anti-aromo and a prolactin suppressant...
Is because our pituitary acts on the release of prolactin due to high estrogens... and prolactin is the hormone that causes the mammary gland to become functional, whether your taking a high anabolic or high androgenic AAS you will have higher amounts of estrogens in your body and that will effect your adipose tissue around the mammary gland which fat is an estrogen receptor and the prolactin will cause the mammary to enlarge... for those prone... being their estrogen target cells have a greater affinity to all estrogens. they must #1 be careful of a high estrogen level and #2 nip the bud for gyno at the beginning by using a prolactin suppressant...
I have gyno... This is why I have done as much research on this as I have...
This thread started out talking about the best way to use Nolvadex ... There many ways you can use Nolvadex, you can shove it up a cats ass, you can try and use it for an estro-blocker.... the best way I'm stating is to use it post cycle for HPTA therapy.... and if you want to combat estrogens in the body use an antiaromatizer like liquidex or proviron .... If your afraid of gyno which would be the reason I think most are trying to block E receptors... the 1 2 punch is prolactin suppressant and anti-aromotizer...

Your life source quote:
Progesterone for Men
Males make progesterone. They need it to make their testosterone and for the adrenal glands to make cortisone. Males synthesize progesterone in amounts less than women do but it is still vital. You can measure male's progesterone levels, and you'll find that when the woman has this follicle damage I'm talking about, the amount of progesterone she makes is less than that of a male.

Men with BPH (swelling of the prostate) and other male related problems will appreciate the speed of relief with progesterone cream. Dr. Lee recommends that men use 8 - 12 mg of progesterone daily. Progesterone has NO feminizing characteristics. Progesterone is a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor -- it helps prevent the conversion of testosterone into DHT.

Another youlifesource.com quote:

Progesterone - A Specific Hormone
Estrogen - A Class Name


Taken From a transcript of a Seminar by Dr John R. Lee, M.D.
Progesterone is a hormone made by men and women. It is a very specific molecule made in women primarily by the ovary and in men by the testes. But is also made by the adrenal gland, is even very likely made by hair follicles and by brain cells. There are receptors for progesterone essentially in every tissue of the body from nerves to brain cells to thyroid cells to muscle cells, fat cells and of course the breast, the ovary and the uterus. So you have to realize that when I say the word progesterone I am talking about that specific hormone. In fact when I decided after 12 years to share this information with my colleges and with the class I was teaching I put it on the cover. That is progesterone, a specific molecular configuration. We make it in our body from cholesterol.

The reason I emphasize that is the word estrogen does not mean that. Estrogen is a class name. There is no hormone named estrogen. There is estrone, estradiol, and estrial. There is about 20-30 different estrogens. Horse estrogen is different from human estrogen and so on. But there is no hormone named estrogen. It is the name of a class like apple is the name of a class. There is no apple named apple, you have Delicious, Pippins, Granny Smith, you've got all these different apples they all have their own name. The same thing with estrogen.

So this is one thing that bothers doctors. When you get a chance to talk to doctors they will think of progesterone in terms of a class name that there is a bunch of them, Provera and these artificial things are progesterone but they're not. And they'll think of estrogen as a unique thing and it is not, it is a class. They do different things. Estriol you make in large amount only during pregnancy, it doesn't do anything for hot flashes and probably doesn't do anything for maintaining minerals and bones. Estradiol is the only one that has a receptor in bone structure. So there is only one progesterone and all estrogens are not the same.

[Lift Chief]

I'd like to say that i agree with this excerpt right here which is similar to what you've been posting- so we can get that out of the way:

"Prolactin has a synergistic action with estrogen to promote mammary gland proliferation. It also brings about the release of progesterone from lutein cells which renders the uterine mucosa suitable for the imbedding of the ovum, should fertilization occur. Growth hormone also binds the lactogenic receptor (the receptor to with prolactin binds) but is not a significant source of lactation stimulation at normal physiological levels. Excessive levels of growth hormone, however, may lead to galactorrhea. This is analogous to high levels of prolactin binding to growth hormone receptor and inducing acromegaly."


All the drug definitions and hormone definitions are great, and give us a good base to start from, but often with the levels of hormone we are dealing with when taking steroids it doesn't follow what the medical references would say... which is why i base most of my knowledge off of the real world experience of myself, my friends, and the thousands of posts i've read.

With that said... there is nothing that i particularly don't agree with except that you do not need to block prolactin when you are not taking steroids that will cause prolactin issues. Prolactin is what causes men's breasts to lactate, which is why sometimes when people get a bad case of fina gyno they get lactating nipples.

But i have NEVER heard of anyone having lactating nipples or any other prolactin induced gyno problems when taking steroids that convert to estrogen, not progesterone.

When people get gyno from steroids that aromatize into estrogen they are easily taken care of using as you've said l-dex, proviron , nolvadex , etc... never has anyone needed bromo or dostinex or vitex or any other PROLACTIN suppressant in order to take care of the problem.

I would also like to add that proviron is a very weak anti-e, it's best purpose is to keep more test unbinded, thereby augmenting the effects of testosterone .

My point here is simply that prolactin suppression is not needed- especially when there are many unwanted side effects from bromo. If you take a steroid that converts to estrogen and take a strong anti-e along with it you will not have any gyno problems. Every post i've ever read has people that are completely fine with simply estrogen suppression when taking gear that does not cause prolactin problems.

Estrogen inhibitors from strongest to weakest: femara/aromasin /arimidex /proviron

[Lift Chief]

I fixed my post up there- hopefully you responded to the final version- i'm going to bed- i'll address any comments in the morning if you've had a chance to make some by then

[Warrior]

Originally posted by mmaximus25
I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be.

Mmaximus - are you sayin' that clinically Nolvadex can be interchanged with Clomid in prescibed patients? From my understanding, Clomid has a higher affinity for LH stimulating while being an effective estrogen blocker - clinically used to trigger ovulation in females wishing to get pregnant (female's have higher testosterone levels when they are ovulating, more prone to pregnancy).

With that understanding - Clomid should be number one for post-cycle, but if the side effects are too much, then Nolvadex can also be used (but shouldn't be the first choice coming off the gear).

I'll try and dig up some more info on this ... but someone correct me if I am wrong - PLEASE Any MD's?

[mmaximus25]

had to edit
I don’t think you understand what I'm saying... the lactation that you are referring to is the secondary action once gyno has started... Prolactin is not merely to get the mammary to lactate... its all surrounding function… meaning growth... That’s what gyno is... the development of your mammary gland and adipose tissue surrounding... how this gland knows to develop, estrogens messenge to your pituitary which messenge to you mammary gland to function.
Gyno is not noticed right a way... because the fist action is the development into a functioning gland… then you will notice adipose tissue building around the gland… most seldom reach lactation because the lump causes some action to be taken…

I said before an anti aromotizer is better suited than an anti estrogen blocker during any AAS cycle. If you are prone to gyno or if you have gyno then liquidex or proviron and a treatment of Dopergin or bromo are a must. Do you not agree with this?

If you have gyno as I do then you better get some proviron or liquidex with every cycle you do... and use blockers post cycle like clomid and nolvadex . The Dopergin or bromocriptine will combat the gyno as much as possible but once the gland has grown your stuck... the best thing to do is to keep a low body fat or have them removed... The proviron for me is taken 50mg a day and when I have the money 75mg ed… Dopergin is used only in treatments it is not meant to be run through out cycles as I cycle year long anyway… I don’t get off… I now go from high dose to maintenance dose yearly but have staggered previous that for the past two years

I'm not saying I know everything and I'm not sure if you’re saying I’m not using my experience by putting up references and definitions but this is coming up on my 7-8th year using and I’m 27…so experience is something I only come from... I don’t know your level of experience but if you were born in 82 how much can you have…? Do you have gyno LC…? Because I do, it’s in my left pec... why because of meagdosing and using solely nolvadex... why... because I just listen to what every body was saying instead of researching... basically what a kid does when starting out at 21
----The only way nolvadex will work to prevent gyno is if you use it through out a cycle into post cycle... That’s it----

The reason I put data up is so people will become familiar with the definition of drugs and different hormones… Not everyone knows what and why bromocriptine is and use for. Another reason is because too often people spurt shit out because of something they read or heard… I like to put up good info and give reference… not just words coming from an unknown face…

[mmaximus25]

War thats a quote I pulled... I actually got that from Hammerhead
check this reference out
http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/...threadid=41771
I cant say which is better becuse I've always using HCG and nolva psot cycle...
I think their both good choices though. After your PM about using Proviron and I'm not sure if you ever got it... but I did... anyway the proviron and dopergin worked well for the gyno in my left pec...
I did use 100mg of proviron a day for 2 and well I need to check my dosing of the dopergin before I state that

[mmaximus25]

LC
had to edit
I just reread my posts and I think I'm being misinterpreted... I don’t mean use Dopergin or bromo though out cycle but as a treatment...
I do however prefer anti aromotizers to solely blockers and if I had the choice would go with an anti-aromotizer every time.

I currently am running 40mg of nolva 50mg of proviron and maintenance of 200mg of enanthate weekly 100mg propionate e/3rd/day

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by mmaximus25
LC
I just reread my posts and I think I'm being misinterpreted... I don’t mean use Dopergin or bromo thought cycle but as a treatment...
I do however prefer anti aromotizers to solely blockers and if I had the choice would go with an anti-aromotizer every time.

I currently am running 40mg of nolva 50mg of proviron and maintenance of 200mg of enanthate weekly 100mg propionate e/3rd/day

I think we may have a misunderstanding here.

I would AGREE that with a pre-existing case of gyno the best way to approach trying to reduce this is with a multi-faceted approach.

Nolvadex - estrogen suppression
Bromo- Prolactin suppression
And some sort of topical <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=FAT%20BURNER S" target="_blank">fat burner</a>

But during a cycle where fina/deca /drol is not being used you would not need to use bromo, dostinex, dopergin, etc...

During a cycle the best thing you can take would be one of the stronger estrogen inhibitors like femara/aromasin - second choice being arimidex , and third choice being proviron . Simply have nolva on hand in case you get gyno symptoms, there is no need to run it throughout if you use a sufficiently strong estrogen inhibitor.

1/2 tab EOD of femara would be more than enough to block most estrogen issues with a reasonable dose of testosterone - and would likely do a much better job of controlling bloat than proviron/nolvadex combination... would you agree with that?

I think some of the confusion resulted from me editing my post.

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by Warrior

Mmaximus - are you sayin' that clinically Nolvadex can be interchanged with Clomid in prescibed patients? From my understanding, Clomid has a higher affinity for LH stimulating while being an effective estrogen blocker - clinically used to trigger ovulation in females wishing to get pregnant (female's have higher testosterone levels when they are ovulating, more prone to pregnancy).

With that understanding - Clomid should be number one for post-cycle, but if the side effects are too much, then Nolvadex can also be used (but shouldn't be the first choice coming off the gear).

I'll try and dig up some more info on this ... but someone correct me if I am wrong - PLEASE Any MD's?

Clomid does have a higher affinity for stimulating LH, but nolvadex is a stronger anti estrogen so they both have their advantages in post cycle therapy .

There really is no clear cut better option- very knowledgable people have debated on this exact point to a standstill, with references backing both sides of the argument... i personally decided a compromise was in order and so take a combination of the 2 for post cycle therapy... works pretty well.

[BIG TEXAN]

Damn.....looky at what I started. I will say that all posts have good info.

[mmaximus25]

Originally posted by Lift Chief


I think we may have a misunderstanding here.

I would AGREE that with a pre-existing case of gyno the best way to approach trying to reduce this is with a multi-faceted approach.

Nolvadex - estrogen suppression
Bromo- Prolactin suppression
And some sort of topical <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=FAT%20BURNER S" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=FAT%20BURNER S" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=FAT%20BURNER S" target="_blank">fat burner</a> </a> </a>

But during a cycle where fina/deca /drol is not being used you would not need to use bromo, dostinex, dopergin, etc...

During a cycle the best thing you can take would be one of the stronger estrogen inhibitors like femara/aromasin - second choice being arimidex , and third choice being proviron . Simply have nolva on hand in case you get gyno symptoms, there is no need to run it throughout if you use a sufficiently strong estrogen inhibitor.

1/2 tab EOD of femara would be more than enough to block most estrogen issues with a reasonable dose of testosterone - and would likely do a much better job of controlling bloat than proviron/nolvadex combination... would you agree with that?

I think some of the confusion resulted from me editing my post.

I was very confusing with my dyslexic explanations... It's reading not just writing that I have trouble with... actually not a joke even though I joke about it all the time.

I think because I didn't use the word treatment is the issue where anyone would have taken it as through out cycle.
It is my experience that I use and when it comes from using an anti-aromatizer’s or an estrogen-blocker... I would use any anti-aromatizes every time... I used estrogen blockers wrong in the past and have paid the price…

I would like to still caution to those that use estrogen blockers during cycles that the blockers if taken during a cycle must be drawn out into post cycles as well... so the flooding of estrogen will be less due to lower estro levels post cycle... so if using nolva during then clomid post or both nolva and clomid post….
I would also like to reiterate that the cycles using higher anabolic will do much better with anti-aromatizer’s like liquidex and not blockers because of the higher estrogen levels associated with blocks effecting gains with weak androgens.

I can be very confusing, but I do still recommend treating gyno with 2 to 3 treatments of a prolactin suppressant along with an anti-aromatizes

I would also like it if you guys bumped my progesterone thread or commented on it so if I need to edit I can do so. I want this to become common knowledge as far as the differences of progesterone and estrogens.

Glad we cleared all that up LC

[BIG R]

Maximus,

This tread cleared any smoke that I would have had on Nolvadex and Clomid. If my minor was not A&P then I think that I would have been off in the techincal explanation that you gave.
I just came back from The Lee Priest Classic. Was a cool first blood show for Texas. Did you compete Or be fat and happy watching from the audience? I didnt stay around for the night show. I just want to know who won.

R

[Lift Chief]

Originally posted by mmaximus25

I was very confusing with my dyslexic explanations... It's reading not just writing that I have trouble with... actually not a joke even though I joke about it all the time.

I think because I didn't use the word treatment is the issue where anyone would have taken it as through out cycle.
It is my experience that I use and when it comes from using an anti-aromatizer’s or an estrogen-blocker... I would use any anti-aromatizes every time... I used estrogen blockers wrong in the past and have paid the price…

I would like to still caution to those that use estrogen blockers during cycles that the blockers if taken during a cycle must be drawn out into post cycles as well... so the flooding of estrogen will be less due to lower estro levels post cycle... so if using nolva during then clomid post or both nolva and clomid post….
I would also like to reiterate that the cycles using higher anabolic will do much better with anti-aromatizer’s like liquidex and not blockers because of the higher estrogen levels associated with blocks effecting gains with weak androgens.

I can be very confusing, but I do still recommend treating gyno with 2 to 3 treatments of a prolactin suppressant along with an anti-aromatizes

I would also like it if you guys bumped my progesterone thread or commented on it so if I need to edit I can do so. I want this to become common knowledge as far as the differences of progesterone and estrogens.

Glad we cleared all that up LC

Yup- everything's all good now

[juicemonkey]

Originally posted by mmaximus25
LC
had to edit
I just reread my posts and I think I'm being misinterpreted... I don?t mean use Dopergin or bromo though out cycle but as a treatment...
I do however prefer anti aromotizers to solely blockers and if I had the choice would go with an anti-aromotizer every time.

I currently am running 40mg of nolva 50mg of proviron and maintenance of 200mg of enanthate weekly 100mg propionate e/3rd/day

i thought you said not to use nolva exept after a cycle but in your cycle u are taking it during
why

[rxarms]

Go with Clomid Bro. It blocks estrogen receptors in pituitary and hypothelamic regions and thus results more HCG production, thus more endogenous test. Nolv, blocks estrogen receptor more in the cells throughout the body and mostly in the breasts of females. Not the DOC.