The ultimate LIVER thread and info on orals and ORAL TOXICITY!!

[incommservice]

Hey Atomini,

Great post.

I have a question though, do you think it's better to pre-load TUDCA prior to starting your oral?

Or should I start my first dose at the same time I start my oral.

[Atomini]

I don't see it being harmful to start TUDCA lets say a week prior to starting your oral. Generally, it doesn't really matter though. Just make sure you're getting the TUDCA into your liver once the hepatotoxicity begins (basically, once you begin the administration of oral AAS).

[incommservice]

I don't see it being harmful to start TUDCA lets say a week prior to starting your oral. Generally, it doesn't really matter though. Just make sure you're getting the TUDCA into your liver once the hepatotoxicity begins (basically, once you begin the administration of oral AAS).

Damn you reply back FAST lol. Thanks for keeping us safe.

For others looking for it, Omega Sports came out with their own brand of TUDCA over at Nutra, thats what I will be using.

[Atomini]

Damn you reply back FAST lol. Thanks for keeping us safe.

For others looking for it, Omega Sports came out with their own brand of TUDCA over at Nutra, thats what I will be using.

This is very good information, I didn't know this.

We need more TUDCA products on the market.

[ickythump]

Anyone know of the quality from build your own Sup's on Amazon??

[Atomini]

Bump

[Live for the PUMP]

Great info Atomini! Thanks for the education.

[slimshady01]

For thebros

[lovbyts]

Amazon.com sells the raw powders in bulk. A LOT of people haven't heard about it because this is something that has been recently discovered and used. Mind you, it has been studied since the 1990s though.

ha, that is what I was just looking at. I'm glad I have read most of this again especially about it raising the bad cholesterol if you use it to long. I may run some at lower dose soon even though no orals are used. I take Liv52 almost daily due to help keep the liver in good form after getting Hep B 20 years ago. So far so good, test are normal and actually doctor told me recently they dont even see any traces of Hep B anymore. I'm not a carrier in any way and no traces.

[Atomini]

ha, that is what I was just looking at. I'm glad I have read most of this again especially about it raising the bad cholesterol if you use it to long. I may run some at lower dose soon even though no orals are used. I take Liv52 almost daily due to help keep the liver in good form after getting Hep B 20 years ago. So far so good, test are normal and actually doctor told me recently they dont even see any traces of Hep B anymore. I'm not a carrier in any way and no traces.

This is great news, i'm glad to hear that you are getting positive feedback from your doctor. And I agree, Liv52 is a good daily year-round liver support.

TUDCA/UDCA is a good liver support limited to on-cycle use when using oral AAS.

[slimshady01]

This is great news, i'm glad to hear that you are getting positive feedback from your doctor. And I agree, Liv52 is a good daily year-round liver support.

TUDCA/UDCA is a good liver support limited to on-cycle use when using oral AAS.

Thats what im going... Tudca with Oral AAS and liv52 year round.

[AdrenalineJunkie]

Atomini (or anyone who can help)- can you shed any light on the raw form of tudca? Its much cheaper to buy the raw powder and was wondering my best method for consumption? Do i need to take the effort to measure and cap the powder, or would it be fine to measure it and save myself the effort of capping it by mixing it in a beverage and drinking it? I didn't see any information if there was negative effects to mixing it with liquids or certain items. My figure is it will dissolve most likely and didn't know how this effects it.

Also, there seem to be a lot of different opinions on dosages. My buddy will be taking it for his test cycle with dbol kickstart. I am not using any orals and just looking to add it for additional protection. Clearly we should take different dosages and different intervals. Thanks!

[MickeyKnox]

I was just looking for this. Why is this not a sticky?

[AdrenalineJunkie]

I was just looking for this. Why is this not a sticky?

Its under education threads, not stickys

[MickeyKnox]

Its under education threads, not stickys

Roget that! Thanks!

[Atomini]

Atomini (or anyone who can help)- can you shed any light on the raw form of tudca? Its much cheaper to buy the raw powder and was wondering my best method for consumption? Do i need to take the effort to measure and cap the powder, or would it be fine to measure it and save myself the effort of capping it by mixing it in a beverage and drinking it? I didn't see any information if there was negative effects to mixing it with liquids or certain items. My figure is it will dissolve most likely and didn't know how this effects it.

Also, there seem to be a lot of different opinions on dosages. My buddy will be taking it for his test cycle with dbol kickstart. I am not using any orals and just looking to add it for additional protection. Clearly we should take different dosages and different intervals. Thanks!

Nope, no need to cap it, and no need to 'time' it with your meals or anything. You should be able to just eat the raw powder with no problems, provided you've measured your doses (or followed directions on the label, etc.). There are no negative interactions that UDCA/TUDCA has with other foods or substances as far as I know.

[AdrenalineJunkie]

Nope, no need to cap it, and no need to 'time' it with your meals or anything. You should be able to just eat the raw powder with no problems, provided you've measured your doses (or followed directions on the label, etc.). There are no negative interactions that UDCA/TUDCA has with other foods or substances as far as I know.

Good deal. Ill just measure it out and mix it in a drink. Any suggestions to dosages for someone like me not currently on orals vs my buddy who will be?

[Atomini]

250mg per day while not on cycle.

500mg PER DAY for liver maintenance while on a cycle containing the use of oral AAS.

1,000mg or more per day for liver repair if you have done lots of damage from heavy oral use and/or you have high liver enzyme readings as shown from bloodwork, etc. The medical studies done on UDCA/TUDCA on people with liver disorders were using 1,500 - 2,000mg per day for repair purposes.

I will advise, however, against the use of TUDCA/UDCA if you are not on cycle and/or don't have any liver issues that require the need for TUDCA/UDCA. This is because after prolonged use, it can and does alter your cholesterol values in a negative manner. TUDCA/UDCA should not be used for more than approximately 8-10 weeks at a time, and I wouldn't advise using it if you don't absolutely need it. For a solid off-cycle daily liver maintenance supplement, Liv-52, Essentiale Forte N, or NAC should be used. TUDCA/UDCA is amazing incredible stuff and is the best thing out there for liver repair and support, but it has a more narrow place for its use than your average liver support supplement.

[Far from massive]

Atomini,

I stay clear of orals due to contracting HCV in the late 70s early 80s after a motorcycle accident. Anyway my question is have you read any studies of the use of TUDCA/UDCA for liver damage due to HCV? In case the degree of damage effects use my biopsies reveal mild fibrosis but no portal involvment or lesions.

By the way as a side note: I was a little concerned about using steroids even IM when I first started. However I had low T due to age and liver damage so I decided the benefits outwieghed the dangers. The funny thing is possibly due to diet changes, overall better health, etc. I now hardly ever experience any pain in the liver area, this is in contrast to 5 yrs ago, back then whenever I would do anything to stress the liver (Ice cream, Whey etc.) I would experience pain in the area of the liver. Now its been years since I have had these symptoms so for me its been a win/win.

Anyhow any feedback on your feelings on the use of TUDCA/UDCA for long term HCV liver damage would be appreciated.

[Atomini]

Yes! There indeed are many studies that have been done on the benefits of use of TUDCA/UDCA on Hepatitis C patients with very positive results. Here, i've got some links and quotes for you,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17943781

Bile acids for viral hepatitis. Chen W, Liu J, Gluud C. Toronto Western Hospital, University Health Network, University of Toronto, Liver Clinic, Room 181, 6B Fell Pav, 399 Bathurst St, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M5T 2S8. [email protected]

In one trial, ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) versus placebo for acute hepatitis B significantly reduced the risk of hepatitis B surface antigen positivity at the end of treatment and serum HBV DNA level at the end of follow-up. In another trial, UDCA versus no intervention for chronic hepatitis B significantly reduced the risk of having abnormal serum transaminase activities at the end of treatment. Twenty-five trials compared bile acids (21 trials UDCA; four trials tauro-UDCA) versus placebo or no intervention with or without co-interventions for chronic hepatitis C. Bile acids did not significantly reduce the risk of having detectable serum HCV RNA (RR 0.99, 95% CI 0.91 to 1.07), cirrhosis, or portal and periportal inflammation score at the end of treatment. Bile acids significantly decreased the risk of having abnormal serum alanine aminotransferase activity at the end of treatment (RR 0.82, 95% CI 0.76 to 0.90) and follow-up (RR 0.91, 95% CI 0.85 to 0.98). Bile acids significantly increased the Knodell score (WMD 0.20, 95% CI 0.08 to 0.31) at the end of treatment. No severe adverse events were reported.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9840118

Tauroursodeoxycholic acid for the treatment of HCV-related chronic hepatitis: a multicenter placebo-controlled study. Crosignani A, Budillon G, Cimino L, Del Vecchio Blanco C, Loguercio C, Ideo G, Raimondo G, Stabilini R, Podda M. Division of Internal Medicine, School of Medicine San Paolo, Milan, Italy.

RESULTS:
A consistent decrease in aminotransferase serum levels was observed in patients treated with tauroursodeoxycholic acid compared with placebo (p<0.001) and a progressive improvement with time was also found (p<0.05; linear time effect).

CONCLUSIONS:
Tauroursodeoxycholic acid improves the biochemical expression of chronic hepatitis. Long-term studies with clinically relevant end-points are warranted.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...615.x/abstract

Effect of tauroursodeoxycholic acid on bile acid-induced apoptosis in primary human hepatocytes. European Journal of Clinical Investigation.

Results
Apoptotic cell death was significantly increased after exposure to 50 μM GCDCA. Bile acid-induced apoptosis was not accompanied by hepatocellular Fas receptor overexpression. Tauroursodeoxycholic acid reduced apoptosis, as indicated by a significant reduction of oligonucleosomal DNA cleavage. Fas receptor expression was not significantly affected by tauroursodeoxycholic acid. At higher concentrations, direct cytolytic cell destruction was observed.

There's a few for you! There are even more studies out there that have shown positive liver repair benefits from UDCA/TUDCA for Hepatitis victims.

[AdrenalineJunkie]

Thanks atomini, greatly appreciated. Im going to hold off on it then and save it for an oral cycle.

[Atomini]

This needs a big bump.

Side note: I am currently using Antaeus Labs' Aegis liver protectant supplement, which contains TUDCA. I'm on a cycle right now that includes Anavar , so this is why I have chosen to run TUDCA even though Anavar is commonly touted as a 'mild' oral - TAKE NO CHANCES! I am loving it.

[slimshady01]

This needs a big bump.

Side note: I am currently using Antaeus Labs' Aegis liver protectant supplement, which contains TUDCA. I'm on a cycle right now that includes Anavar, so this is why I have chosen to run TUDCA even though Anavar is commonly touted as a 'mild' oral - TAKE NO CHANCES! I am loving it.

That's the same brand TUDCA I use! Ill be using with my 100mg of var cycle in spring!

[Atomini]

That's the same brand TUDCA I use! Ill be using with my 100mg of var cycle in spring!

Exactly what i'm doing right now. 100mg daily of Anavar (with 100mg weekly of Testosterone and 200mg weekly of Trenbolone ). Taking 6 capsules of Aegis per day (3 with one meal, and 3 with another meal later in the day).

[slimshady01]

Exactly what i'm doing right now. 100mg daily of Anavar (with 100mg weekly of Testosterone and 200mg weekly of Trenbolone). Taking 6 capsules of Aegis per day (3 with one meal, and 3 with another meal later in the day).

I was going to run tren here in a few weeks but someone commented today on my hair thinning which pissed me off so now no tren!

Oh and I use nizoral 2% and a whole slew of things . I've done well keeping most of it but afraid now tren might undo what's been kept.
I guess I'll be sticking with test var and deca /npp.

[Armykid93]

Great read. I didn't know this was here

[briansvk]

I have a question about hepatoxicity of compounds... When on cycle containing only injectables, but with AI... should I concern about liver? Are AI (anastrozole/exemestane) in oral (tablets) form liver toxic, lets say taking 0.5mg anastrozole a day for 3-4 months? Or these compounds does not affect liver in any abnormal way?

I am asking because:

On 31.10.2012 I finished 4 month long cycle.

It started 1.7.2012 with 250mg Test E and 250mg Boldenone undecylenate every third day. AI anastrozole 0.5mg daily along with this.
After 2 months (on 1.9.2012) Trenbolone hexahydrobenzylcarbonate was adden dosing 150mg every third day along with previous two.

The end of the cycle started on 14.10.2012 (dropped boldenone), than week after that 20.10.2012 trenbolone was dropped and another week after testosterone enanthate was dropped.

Afterwards I started "bridge" with 50mg test prop every other day and 30mg stanozolol (oral) every day (10mg 3x daily).

On 20.11.2012 I payed my doctor a visit for bloodwork. I was mainly interested in Liver and Kidneys tests because of trenbolone and boldenone. Today the results has come and there are some increased values in S-AST, S-ALT and S-ALP is down a little:



S-AST .... 0.86 ukat/l .... 0.10-0.75
S-ALT .... 1.10 ukat/l .... 0.10-0.85
S-GMT .... 0.27 ukat/l .... 0.13-1.00
S-ALP .... 0.70 ukat/l .... 0.76-2.00

I am using GHRP-6 with MOD-GRF which shouldn't interact with results in any way. But along I am using vitamin B6 (pyridoxín 100,0 mg), vitamin B12 (kyanokobalamín 1000 μg) and vitamin B1 (tiamín 100,0 mg) IM injection daily. This could have caused that S-ALP is down.

Should I be worried? I dropped stanozolol on 30.11.2012 to be sure. Since I have been on this blood work I took silymarin (sadly I did not have the knowledge you presented in this thread) 70 mg twice a day (morning/evening) for 25 days. The values are in different units as you wrote in previous post, so I am unable to compare. Thanks.

[Atomini]

Trenbolone , although injectable, does place a small measurable amount of strain on the liver. It should never be enough to cause alarm but it does happen and some users may experience more of it than others do. My liver enzyme readings were always okay while on Trenbolone, but I have a buddy who doesn't take as well to it when it comes to hepatotoxicity.

Your use of oral Winstrol may also be a large contributing factor as well. Even the injectable preparation of Winstrol, although it avoids this first pass through the liver, it still exhibits notable hepatotoxicity, although it is not as severe as the oral format. It has been noted in studies, however, that even the injectable preparation of Winstrol has resulted in significant in healthy bodybuilders(1).

References:
1. Androgenic /Anabolic steroid -induced toxic hepatitis . Stimac D, Milic S, Dintinjana RD, Kovac D, Ristic S. J Clin Gastroenterol. 2002 Oct;35(4):350-2.

[OdinsOtherSon]

Bump.

Atomini, great thread and info. In reading through I saw some discussion on Liv52 for daily liver support. Also I've read that TUDCA/UDCA, if used NOT on cycle of orals and for extended use, can negatively affect lipid/cholesterol levels. I'm assuming the same is not true for Liv52? Would Liv52 perhaps be beneficial in regulating cholesterol levels?

[Atomini]

Bump.

Atomini, great thread and info. In reading through I saw some discussion on Liv52 for daily liver support. Also I've read that TUDCA/UDCA, if used NOT on cycle of orals and for extended use, can negatively affect lipid/cholesterol levels. I'm assuming the same is not true for Liv52? Would Liv52 perhaps be beneficial in regulating cholesterol levels?

This is true. Liv 52 does not impact cholesterol profiles negatively.

[kolaking]

Great info...although I have not read the whole body yet I will. As someone who has Hep C (thanks to the Army) I do not tolerate orals very well, I get pain in the Gaul blatter, except for Anavar . Orals don't concern me very much anymore as my ideal body type has changed from bulked to athletic/hard. I keep up with enzyme levels and will be starting Interferon/ Ribovarin hopfully in the next year to try and clear the virus. Thanks for the info!

[Trying-Hard]

Exactly what i'm doing right now. 100mg daily of Anavar (with 100mg weekly of Testosterone and 200mg weekly of Trenbolone). Taking 6 capsules of Aegis per day (3 with one meal, and 3 with another meal later in the day).

Atomini,

I googled "Antaeus Labs' Aegis liver" and saw the serving is 125mg of Tauroursodeoxycholic acid. Why are you take 6 caps/day if you recommend 500mg while on cycle?

I am doing a Test/Var (60mg ed) in the near future and just want to confirm that it is 500mg that I should take for the 8 weeks I am on var, not 600+.

[Atomini]

Atomini,

I googled "Antaeus Labs' Aegis liver" and saw the serving is 125mg of Tauroursodeoxycholic acid. Why are you take 6 caps/day if you recommend 500mg while on cycle?

On my bottle, it says per 1 capsule, there is 85mg of TUDCA. So, 85mg X 6 capsules = 510mg.

[Trying-Hard]

On my bottle, it says per 1 capsule, there is 85mg of TUDCA. So, 85mg X 6 capsules = 510mg.

Got ya...Thanks. The one I googled showed 125mg.

A few more for ya..

1) You said that TUDCA should not be used more than 8-10 weeks at a time. But then you said TUDCA should be used through PCT. So what is your TUDCA use protocol for someone that is running Var for the last 8 weeks of their cycle, but then obviously has another 4-6 weeks of PCT?

2) You implied that you will not give orals the time of day and that, for example, if one wants to use var they should just use Masteron instead. Knowing that, why are you currently using Var at 100 mg ed? I am just curious..=)

[Atomini]

Got ya...Thanks. The one I googled showed 125mg.

A few more for ya..

1) You said that TUDCA should not be used more than 8-10 weeks at a time. But then you said TUDCA should be used through PCT. So what is your TUDCA use protocol for someone that is running Var for the last 8 weeks of their cycle, but then obviously has another 4-6 weeks of PCT?

2) You implied that you will not give orals the time of day and that, for example, if one wants to use var they should just use Masteron instead. Knowing that, why are you currently using Var at 100 mg ed? I am just curious..=)

1) I don't remember ever stating that one should use it through PCT. I do remember someone asking me if they should use it through PCT, to which I replied it is fine under the circumstances they told me they were using it. But I don't remember that post, it was a while ago now.

2) My Anavar run at the moment is a little experimental thing. I hate running orals, however, I am pretty impressed with the capabilities of Anavar at the moment. But this is not enough to justify myself using Anavar (or any oral) on a regular basis. This is perhaps the only time I will be using it. If I use it again, it won't be for years. Injectable compounds are what I use exclusively.

[slimshady01]

Got ya...Thanks. The one I googled showed 125mg.

A few more for ya..

1) You said that TUDCA should not be used more than 8-10 weeks at a time. But then you said TUDCA should be used through PCT. So what is your TUDCA use protocol for someone that is running Var for the last 8 weeks of their cycle, but then obviously has another 4-6 weeks of PCT?

2) You implied that you will not give orals the time of day and that, for example, if one wants to use var they should just use Masteron instead. Knowing that, why are you currently using Var at 100 mg ed? I am just curious..=)

The newer version is dosed different. I got the ones with 125 per cap and I take 4

[gearbox]

I use the powder. Tastes great lol

[Atomini]

I use the powder. Tastes great lol

Does it really? Or is that sarcasm? lol

[ElectraMaddox]

Amazing thread!

[Atomini]

Thanks! And thanks for keeping this bumped. Need more people to learn about the liver, how it works, and what to do about it. Fact of the matter is that this is the ONLY currently existing quintessential liver thread on this forum. And we get questions every day about liver this, liver that, what to take for the liver, etc. etc. Keep it at the top!