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View Poll Results: Which do you prefer for PCT

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  • Torem

    3 30.00%
  • Nolva

    6 60.00%
  • Clomid

    1 10.00%
  • Other

    0 0%
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  1. #1
    rage223 is offline Junior Member
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    Torem, Nolva or Clomid... Which do you prefer for pct?

    Which do you like best? Dosage? Time Frame?

    1.) Torem
    2.) Nolva
    3.) Clomid
    Last edited by rage223; 07-27-2012 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Move to PCT section. My bad.

  2. #2
    gonzo6183's Avatar
    gonzo6183 is offline Senior Member
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    You need more than one compound

  3. #3
    austinite's Avatar
    austinite is offline HRT Specialist ~ * ~AR-Hall of Famer~
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    incomplete question.

  4. #4
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo6183 View Post
    You need more than one compound
    Not entirely true, though most of the time this is the case. It all depends on what type of cycle was run, and the person's personal recovery ability post-cycle.

    With that being said, my choice is always Nolvadex as a PCT component, and as an adjunct to an AI with, depending on the cycle i've run, HCG . Nolva has been shown to be more effective than clomid in literally everything it does. Nolvadex at a dose of 20mg a day has been shown in studies to raise testosterone levels by 150%(1). In comparison, you'd need 150mg of clomid to achieve that. In addition, nolvadex acts as a much stronger and better estrogen receptor agonist than clomid does, making it more effective on a mg per mg basis for blocking gyno. Clomid and nolva are like brothers and sisters, and nolvadex has shown to do everything far better than clomid. It should be everyone's #1 choice over clomid for PCT to recover endogenous test production, as well as gyno control.

    I would also like to mention that clomid has been known to come with some nasty side effects a lot of people seem to get, that is not anywhere near as commonly reported as nolvadex. These include things like hot flashes, extreme mood swings, and vision problems(!!!). Vision problems!? No thanks, not for me.

    References:

    1. Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.

  5. #5
    cherryking is offline Junior Member
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    From what I've researched from the nolv vs clom is nolva seems to be superior when it comes to blocking gyno related symptoms while clomid will block estrogen better then nolva but not at the nipples which is really what everyone is concerned about, and as for the mg to mg who cares if you have the money aas is so expensive anyways that it still ends up being only a small fraction of the cost, most people actually run nolva and clomid together so if nolva is better then clomid in every aspect then why not just take more nolva right, so let's say theoretically clomid dose restore the body back to normal quicker then nolva why not take clomid? Because nolva blocks estrogen at the nipple far more superior then clomid so if any sings of gyno were to appear while on cycle taking clomid would take a high and long dose to stop the estrogen form Creating gyno where as Nolva would stop it dead in its tracks quickly so why not scrap clomid completely and just use nolva? Well some cycles using non aromatizing steroids wouldn't require nolva because there is no estrogen convention so I this case clomid would be the better choice where as a cycle containing estrogen converting steroids nolva would be the better choice, but since pct is only a fraction of the price of a cycle and the most important part of a cycle both is optimal IMO so clomid or nolva? Both, just one? Nolva, just one on an anavar only cycle pre contest? Clomid
    Also a lot of the side affects of clomid come with the rediculously high kickstart doses of 300mg a reasonable dose of 100 75 50 50 gave me no sides or anyone els I know any sides besides a little extra emotion during sad movies
    Last edited by cherryking; 07-28-2012 at 09:13 AM.

  6. #6
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherryking View Post
    From what I've researched from the nolv vs clom is nolva seems to be superior when it comes to blocking gyno related symptoms while clomid will block estrogen better then nolva but not at the nipples which is really what everyone is concerned about, and as for the mg to mg who cares if you have the money aas is so expensive anyways that it still ends up being only a small fraction of the cost, most people actually run nolva and clomid together so if nolva is better then clomid in every aspect then why not just take more nolva right, so let's say theoretically clomid dose restore the body back to normal quicker then nolva why not take clomid? Because nolva blocks estrogen at the nipple far more superior then clomid so if any sings of gyno were to appear while on cycle taking clomid would take a high and long dose to stop the estrogen form Creating gyno where as Nolva would stop it dead in its tracks quickly so why not scrap clomid completely and just use nolva? Well some cycles using non aromatizing steroids wouldn't require nolva because there is no estrogen convention so I this case clomid would be the better choice where as a cycle containing estrogen converting steroids nolva would be the better choice, but since pct is only a fraction of the price of a cycle and the most important part of a cycle both is optimal IMO so clomid or nolva? Both, just one? Nolva, just one on an anavar only cycle pre contest? Clomid
    Also a lot of the side affects of clomid come with the rediculously high kickstart doses of 300mg a reasonable dose of 100 75 50 50 gave me no sides or anyone els I know any sides besides a little extra emotion during sad movies
    Cherryking, you shouldn't post about such subjects if you have no idea what you are talking about. Your post contains a myriad of flat out wrong misinformation, and I become gravely concerned when people post things like this because someone who doesn't know better will read it and take the garbage information you're posting to heart. I try to provide the best possible fact based upon scientific and medical study in this particular arena of endocrinology. I enjoy sharing my knowledge here in the effort to help people out and assist them in their hormone augmentation as safely as possible, and one thing that really bothers me is when people spout misinformation, and then it gets circulated around as fact. I've bolded the parts of your post that make absolutely no sense, and I am going to address them one by one:

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryking View Post
    nolva seems to be superior when it comes to blocking gyno related symptoms while clomid will block estrogen better then nolva but not at the nipples
    You are contradicting yourself here. You are also not explaining the difference between 'blocking gyno related symptoms' and 'block estrogen'. This is because you are making up these terms, formulating things out of nowhere. You then proceed to state a complete error here when you say: "clomid will block estrogen better then nolva but not at the nipples". This is absolutely wrong. Both nolvadex AND clomid are SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators). A SERM is a compound which acts as an estrogen receptor antagonist in some tissues (in this case, breast tissue), and as an estrogen receptor agonist in other tissues.

    The key piece of knowlege here is that Nolvadex was not developed to stop gyno in steroid -using athletes. It was developed as a breast cancer fighting drug, as most breast cancers are exacerbated by estrogen binding to receptor sites on breast tissue, signaling growth. If cancerous cells exist there, you can see how this would be a problem. The idea is that after breast cancer surgery, the female takes nolvadex because it has an EXTREMELY higher affinity for the receptors on breast tissue than estrogen does, thereby reducing the chance of cancer recurring by a great deal. The other side to this coin, however, is that nolvadex really IS an estrogen, albeit a 'fake' estrogen in breast tissue (a placeholder, if you will, that masquerades as the real estrogen but does absolutely nothing when it gets there). The thing with that is, though nolvadex may act as an estrogen antagonist in breast tissue, it acts as an estrogen in other tissues in the body.

    Clomid was developed for the exact same purpose, THEY DO THE SAME JOB AT BREAST TISSUE RECEPTOR SITES. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. And there is a reason why breast cancer treatment, for the most part, does not include clomid any more. It's because in comparison to nolvadex, it absolutely sucks at binding affinity to receptor sites on breast tissue. You require far more mg of clomid to do the same job as nolvadex at a much lower mg. You will be able to block estrogen (i.e. gyno prevention/elimination) far more succesfully in breast tissue with nolvadex than with clomid.

    Now, i've established that nolvadex and clomid do the exact same job at breast receptor sites - there is no difference between them except their efficiency at doing this job. With that being established, nolvadex on a milligram for milligram basis, is stronger than Clomid - 1mg of Nolvadex carries more potency than 1mg of Clomid.

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryking View Post
    if nolva is better then clomid in every aspect then why not just take more nolva right
    WRONG.

    You evidently did not look into the reference to a study I posted earlier whereby I stated that nolvadex, at a dose of 20mg a day, has been shown in studies to raise testosterone levels by 150%(1). In comparison, you'd need 150mg of clomid to achieve that same effect.


    It does this by signalling the pituitary to produce more gonadotropins, which in turn signal the testes to produce testosterone . In comparison with hCG , however, it takes longer to work and garner its full effect. In men, both Clomid and Nolvadex act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus, and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). Lh (leutenizing hormone) output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason EVERYONE persists in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two, and i've already provided one reference to back up this fact. I am now going to provide even more.

    Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (2). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid even at that raised dose!!!). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

    With all of this being said, I never once said that because nolvadex is the better of the two at everything that means you should take MORE nolvadex (as you have accused me of saying). My point with everything I am saying is this: you do not need massive doses of nolvadex in order to achieve BOTH functions (blocking estrogen at breast tissue receptors as well as raising gonadotropins during PCT). 20mg of Nolvadex does all of these functions incredibly well! In fact, it has been shown that if you double your Nolvadex dose to 40mg, or go even higher, that the results will be no different than a 20mg dose. You don't need to break your bank with this stuff! A little goes a long way, and if you use even more, you are not only wasting your money but you are increasing the incidence of potential negative effects. There is always a point where adding more of anything doesn't improve anything, and the threshold for that with Nolvadex is very low!

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryking View Post
    theoretically clomid dose restore the body back to normal quicker then nolva why not take clomid? Because nolva blocks estrogen at the nipple far more superior then clomid
    Clomid does not restore the body back to normal quicker during PCT. I have proven this numerous times already with references. Your statement is invalid.

    Next...

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryking View Post
    why not scrap clomid completely and just use nolva? Well some cycles using non aromatizing steroids wouldn't require nolva because there is no estrogen convention so I this case clomid would be the better choice
    This is exactly what I am saying. Scrap Clomid completely, and use Nolvadex instead! Do not even run both.

    Then you state "some cycles using non aromatizing steroids wouldn't require nolva because there is no estrogen convention so I this case clomid would be the better choice".

    Excuse me? What? You make no sense. You're just making things up again.

    First of all, there do exist non-aromatizing steroids that DO require nolvadex, because they can cause gyno even though they do not convert to estrogen. Ever heard of Anadrol??? Anadrol is a DHT-based compound, which cannot possibly convert to estrogen. Yet it causes estrogenic side effects in users (water retention, gyno, etc.). This is because it is believed that Anadrol itself acts as an estrogen agonist in certain tissues (breast tissue for one thing). And you're telling people to throw out nolvadex and use clomid, the weaker compound???? Nolvadex is the absolute must-have choice to combat something like this from a compound like Anadrol. Nolvadex would more effectively block receptor sites on breast tissue than Clomid ever would, thereby preventing Anadrol from activating receptors and causing gyno to form.

    So no, clomid would not be the better choice. Not for PCT, not for blocking gyno, NOT FOR ANYTHING. Clomid is an outdated compound and shouldn't be used by anyone unless you feel like wasting money on having to use a higher dose of a far less superior compound. PERIOD.

    Please, go do more research before you attempt to advise people on this forum. The last thing the anabolic steroid community needs is misinformation and bad advice floating around. That is one of the larger reasons why the AAS using community has been so crippled over the last 20+ years.

    References:

    1. Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.
    2. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen , in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

  7. #7
    cherryking is offline Junior Member
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    Hey man just what I've read, nolva seems to best on hand because its better to stop gyno in its tracks and I've read up on other reasearch and found that nolva always comes out on top but clomid beats it in just a few ways but it's very complicated to me and you seem to know what your talking about and I know some Oral's that dont convert will still give you gyno but say something like tbol won't and in the rare case it dose it's usually fake gear, Ive read that using clomid as a pct for an oral only after tbol or anavar will help you keep more gains, I did extensive reasearch at the time but at the time I had already bought clomid and didn't want to go out and buy nolva so mabey my reasearch was byist due to the fact I wanted to run clomid as pct and a lot of my post that you bolded you were twisting my words, I wasn't contradicting my self. And like he said which do you prefer and like I stated at the beginning "from what I've reasearched" no lie that's what my reasearch showed I think you miss read half of what I was saying because of my sleep deprived crack head typing but I did find study's stating the minor benefits of clomid over nolva but always outweighed by nolvas gyno fighting ability that's not accounted for in an oral only OT cycle which I happend to run, 15 pounds of gains with non loss after my clomid pct but for my next injectable cycle I will be running nolva and clomid as pct

  8. #8
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherryking View Post
    Hey man just what I've read, nolva seems to best on hand because its better to stop gyno in its tracks and I've read up on other reasearch and found that nolva always comes out on top but clomid beats it in just a few ways but it's very complicated to me and you seem to know what your talking about and I know some Oral's that dont convert will still give you gyno but say something like tbol won't and in the rare case it dose it's usually fake gear, Ive read that using clomid as a pct for an oral only after tbol or anavar will help you keep more gains, I did extensive reasearch at the time but at the time I had already bought clomid and didn't want to go out and buy nolva so mabey my reasearch was byist due to the fact I wanted to run clomid as pct and a lot of my post that you bolded you were twisting my words, I wasn't contradicting my self. And like he said which do you prefer and like I stated at the beginning "from what I've reasearched" no lie that's what my reasearch showed I think you miss read half of what I was saying because of my sleep deprived crack head typing but I did find study's stating the minor benefits of clomid over nolva but always outweighed by nolvas gyno fighting ability that's not accounted for in an oral only OT cycle which I happend to run, 15 pounds of gains with non loss after my clomid pct but for my next injectable cycle I will be running nolva and clomid as pct
    Quote Originally Posted by cherryking View Post
    but clomid beats it in just a few ways
    How?

    I'd like to see the research on this. Please provide me with some clinical studies to prove this claim, because everything i've seen (and i've shown you the raw data) has shown that Nolvadex is superior in every way to clomid. I see no advantages to Clomid over Nolvadex. In fact, I haven't even delved into the issue of crappy side effects that are associated with Clomid that do not occur with Nolvadex, such as: vision problems, mood swings, hot flashes, risk of cataracts.

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryking View Post
    and I know some Oral's that dont convert will still give you gyno but say something like tbol won't and in the rare case it dose it's usually fake gear
    Yes, and i've told you that Anadrol is one of them. I've also described how Nolvadex works perfectly well, and in fact far better than Clomid, at doing the job of blocking estrogen at breast tissue receptor sites so that Anadrol itself (or any other similar steroid ) can't get in there and stimulate gyno.

    Quote Originally Posted by cherryking View Post
    I did find study's stating the minor benefits of clomid over nolva but always outweighed by nolvas gyno fighting ability that's not accounted for in an oral only OT cycle which I happend to run, 15 pounds of gains with non loss after my clomid pct but for my next injectable cycle I will be running nolva and clomid as pct
    Again, please provide me with the clinical studies that show that Clomid has, at the very least, minor benefits over Nolvadex.

    You do realize that gyno from an oral anabolic is the exact same gyno from an injectable?

    You also realize that your claim of keeping 15 lbs of muscle post-cycle is something called anecdotal evidence and holds no weight in the face of real medical study? I could sit here and tell you about my very first cycle of Test E for 10 weeks, gained 27 lbs, and how I used Nolvadex and Aromasin as my PCT and at the end held on to 25 lbs. But guess what? That means nothing. You also realize that there is far more to keeping your gains after a cycle than what PCT drugs you use? Things such as diet and training perhaps hold just as much in the final determining factor. The fact of the matter is, despite all of this, the research tells the truth. And i've shown you the research that clearly describes how Nolvadex is far superior than Clomid at raising gonadotropin secretion, and acting as an estrogen antagonist in breast tissue. If the sole determining factor in 'what's better than what' is a drug's ability to raise natural testosterone during post-cycle and block estrogen, then Nolvadex wins in every case.

  9. #9
    Far from massive's Avatar
    Far from massive is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Atomi,

    Agree 100% on clomid. As someone who has suffered a hemmorage in their optic nerve from interferon I would never ever take something that was known to cause visual sides. It amazes me the way the FDA pushes through drug after drug with visual sides these days. I really think if more people ever really thought about just what the hell a "visual side" was they would be a lot more reluctant to take these drugs when there was an option.

    Also on gains and keeping gains I think you need to look at the shape the individual was in when they started the cycle. If you are in a sedate out of shape condition, young and go to the gym willy nilly once or twice a week you could probably gain 15 lbs in 10 wks without AAS so if you do an AAS cycle and you to eat and train like a pro for 10 wks was it really the AAS that caused the growth or the other changes
    Last edited by Far from massive; 07-29-2012 at 04:37 AM.

  10. #10
    Atomini's Avatar
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    I wouldn't take Clomid if you paid me to!

    Look at the massive amount of people who have had vision problems with Clomid. Anything that screws with your optic function is serious business in my eyes (no pun intended)! I will never ever use anything that has been known to cause optic disturbances. I have a father who is blind, and I know from a life time of dealing with that growing up in my family, your vision is probably the most precious thing you have. And the interesting thing about your eyes is: we all take it for granted. You have limbs - two arms and two legs that you can visibly see, so you will always think twice before screwing around with things that could leave you limbless. But your eyes you cannot see. You see through them. And its all fun and games until you start having optical disturbances from a drug you're taking... a blurry spot here, a blurry spot there... and then it gets worse, your eyes start to hurt, you start to see spots more frequently... NO THANKS!!! I would rather lose an arm than lose my vision if I was given a choice, thank you very much. Imagine losing your sight! Or even just having your sight impaired for the rest of your life. This is one of the reasons why I take Clomid so seriously, and I haven't even discussed this just yet.

    Just google profiles on Clomid (i'm talking abour real profiles on medical websites) and look at what it says:

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dru...ation/DR202151

    This medicine may cause blurred vision, difficulty in reading, or other changes in vision. It may also cause some people to become dizzy or lightheaded. Make sure you know how you react to this medicine before you drive, use machines, or do anything else that could be dangerous if you are not clear-headed or able to see well . If these reactions are especially bothersome, check with your doctor.

    Less common or rare
    Blurred vision; decreased or double vision or other vision problems; seeing flashes of light; sensitivity of eyes to light; yellow eyes or skin
    And another:

    http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-1120...rugname=Clomid

    Vision changes (e.g., blurred vision, seeing spots or flashes) may sometimes occur during clomiphene treatment, especially if you are exposed to bright light. These side effects usually go away a few days or weeks after treatment is stopped. However, in rare cases, vision changes may be permanent. Tell your doctor immediately if any of the following occur: vision problems/changes, eye pain.
    Eye pain? EYE PAIN!?!?!??!!?!? NO THANKS!!! Possibility of permanent eye damage? Get that shit 10 feet away from me at all times! That's just messed up, I don't care if even some of the visual side effects are in the 'less common or rare' section. I've seen enough people who have used Clomid on-cycle or for PCT actually get these side effects. Just do a simple google search, or even search this forum and you'll see for yourself. So, I don't understand why, people still persist in using something as shitty as Clomid in the face facts that the solid research shows Nolvadex is superior to Clomid in every way, IN ADDITION to the knowledge of the dangerous and scary side effects of vision problems of clomid. Why anyone would choose Clomid over Nolva (or even run them together) despite all of that, is neandrethal thinking to me...
    Last edited by Atomini; 07-29-2012 at 06:14 AM.

  11. #11
    Lemonada8's Avatar
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    you get eye issues because clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist at the ER due to the different isomers. Estrogen is a vasodilator, so if the way the individual's body breaks down the isomers at different rates, you can get some pro-estrogen effects. same with hot flashes.

    As for the advantages of clomid vs nolva, what about the LH pulse amplitudes and frequencys? and you have to remember that the body is techinically in a state of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism because of the lack of production of gonadotropins being produced by the pituitary. Hence the use of HCG while on cycle to maintain Intratesticular testosterone ( which is the most important thing to maintain spermatogensis over the course of using AAS and protection to the leydig & sertoli cells; and should be ran with EVERY cycle)
    Then with the assumption of the AAS user being a normal man and only being temporary suppressed; that the pituitary gland will start producing LH when the negative feedback is gone, and with the use of SERMs the functionality of LH production is increased temporarily to 'jump start' the body back to stabilization and natural production in the hypothalamus/pituitary axis ( not including testes because of the use of HCG during the cycle, that should have never been halted in the first place )

    Clomid as been shown to increase the amplitude of each pulse 30% in a single day, and a typical clomid stimulation test is 100mg clomid ED for 5-7 days and a normal response is a doubling of LH in that time period. When the body is not making LH naturally due to the negative feedback, this kickstarts the pituitary into releasing LH. However with continued use, it can lead to LHRH insensitivity which ultimately lowers LH production and it not wanted, but that is at higher doses for extended periods of time. It doesnt have much effect on pulse frequency. One more thing with clomid is that the older the person gets, the less effective it is comparative by age; it is still effective but the increase in LH isnt as much.
    Nolva doesnt increase the amplitude of LH pulses, but it does increase the pulse frequency; and by this it increases LH. But it usually takes a longer period of time to increase LH to the same extent that clomid can do in a week. However, one benefit is that nolva does increase sensitivity to LHRH which ultimately leads to increased production of LH which is better in the long run.

    So initially, in the first part of PCT; clomid will help jumpstart the pit to release LH in greater amounts yet can make it less sensitive to LHRH ( say 4 weeks 100 first week, 50 2nd week and 25 3rd and 4th week). With the combined use of nolva, the LH pulses could/would increase in frequency and increase sensitivity to LHRH which, if continued over time ( say 6 week time period) it would negate any of the decreased sensitivity to LHRH done by the clomid while having an increase in LH pulse frequency. This combined with HCG on cycle would help maximize recovery speed and efficiency after an AAS cycle, aka keep gains.

    and that is why i would run clomid and nolva together, i hope its not to neanderthal for ya

    a few sources for stuff i said here, i have much more but i am still in the process of writing my article on PCT.

    The effect of clomiphene citrate on the 24-hour LH secretory pattern in normla men - R.M. Boyar, M. Perlo, S. Kapen, G. Lefkowitz

    Estradiol Modulates the Pulsatile Secretion of Biologically Active Luteinizing Hormone in Man - Johannes D. Veldhuis and Maria L. Dufau

    Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression - Andrea D. Coviello, Alvin M. Matsumoto, William J. Bremner, Karen L. Herbst, John K. Amory,
    Bradley D. Anawalt, Paul R. Sutton, William W. Wright, Terry R. Brown, Xiaohua Yan, Barry R. Zirkin, and Jonathan P. Jarow

    Clomiphene Citrate Effects on Testosterone/Estrogen Ratio in Male Hypogonadism - Ahmad Shabsigh, MD, Young Kang, MD, Ridwan Shabsign, MD, Mark Gonzalez, MD, Gary Liberson, MD, Harry Fisch, MD, and Erik Goluboff, MD

    Studies of the Pituitary-Leydig Cell Axis in Young Men with Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism and Hyposmia: Comparison with Normal Men, Prepuberal Boys, and Hypopituitary Patients - C. WAYNE BARDIN, GRIFF T. Ross, ARLEEN B. RPIaND, CHAUURS M. CARGILLE, and MORTIMER B. LIPsETr

  12. #12
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    Interesting as well!!

  13. #13
    Atomini's Avatar
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    I love you, Lemonada8!

    you get eye issues because clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist at the ER due to the different isomers. Estrogen is a vasodilator, so if the way the individual's body breaks down the isomers at different rates, you can get some pro-estrogen effects. same with hot flashes.
    Totally agree with you here. The interesting thing is, that Nolvadex does seem to do the same thing but at a lesser degree. WIth Nolva, you just don't see the ER agonistic effects in certain tissues as prominent as Clomid. I wish I could find more specific studies into this but I can't find anything.

    One more thing with clomid is that the older the person gets, the less effective it is comparative by age; it is still effective but the increase in LH isnt as much.
    Very interesting. I wish I could find some research that explains why this is the case (note that I haven't looked through all the references you cited just yet, so I may have yet to get to it).

    I wouldn't say your choice is very neandrethal. I am curious as to how effective it is in real application, and how long do you run clomid for in your PCT protocol? You mentioned the 'first part of PCT'. The first week? First two weeks? I wouldn't mind even just trying this out and getting bloodwork to compare it to other PCT protocols i've used. I'm always open to new ideas, and this is one that I haven't yet heard when it comes to clomid.

    Quick question: are we looking at the big picture here, or are we looking at this with a magnifying glass? I've noticed over time that often times, the pig picture (long term view of PCT) is often more important than the small little additions. I.e. overall HPTA recovery by the end of PCT vs short term HPTA recovery over the first couple weeks of PCT.

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    rage223 is offline Junior Member
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    This has my attention!

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    slatts77 is offline Junior Member
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    ive posted a thread on a cycle and was advised to run both clomid and nolva in PCT, so does that mean i should not even bother with the clomid and just run Nolva: 40/40/20/20 for pct?

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    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slatts77 View Post
    ive posted a thread on a cycle and was advised to run both clomid and nolva in PCT, so does that mean i should not even bother with the clomid and just run Nolva: 40/40/20/20 for pct?
    That would be my advice, yes.

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    Atomi I know you love nolva and you run it alone, but what about raloxenfine and torem running with nolva like
    torem and nolva or raloxenfine and nolva?
    Haha say that five times fast

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    slatts77 is offline Junior Member
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    well isnt torem the cousin compound to nolva? so wouldnt it be like running the same thing but double

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    Quote Originally Posted by slatts77 View Post
    well isnt torem the cousin compound to nolva? so wouldnt it be like running the same thing but double
    Ive seen a lot of people do it, yes its a new form of nolva. I'm starting to think Evista and nolva is the best combo cause Evista is a newer more effective version of clomid I think.

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    slatts77 is offline Junior Member
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    if i only run nolva instead of
    Nolva: 40/40/20/20
    clomid 50/50/40/40 like a lot of members suggest on here, does that mean i have to double my volva dosage if i want the same effect as if i were to run both the clomid and nolva?

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    Atomini's Avatar
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    Well, I was about to use Toremifene once until I read a study that compared it to Nolvadex , and Nolvadex still came out on top (though Toremifene came close) in terms of its ability to stimulate the body's testosterone production. So, with that being said, even though there's nothing wrong with stacking Tore and Nolva... the way I see it you might was well just do 40mg of nolva instead. Just makes things simpler.

    But listen... if you want to run something WITH nolva to help restore your HPTA quicker... it's extremely rare and hard to find but this stuff I a gem... I mean a REAL GEM, but so few people have heard of it that it is very hard to find.... Testolactone (aka Teslac). You won't find this produced by ANY research chem companies, because it is a steroidal compound, so it is classified under the same restrictions as AAS. Here's its profile: http://www.steroid.com/Teslac.php

    It is incredible stuff if you can find it. It is like Proviron , only better! Proviron does not stimulate your body's testosterone production and in fact has a slight suppressive effect - TESLAC DOES NOT! Teslac in fact stimulates your body to produce gonadotropins!

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    Quote Originally Posted by slatts77 View Post
    if i only run nolva instead of
    Nolva: 40/40/20/20
    clomid 50/50/40/40 like a lot of members suggest on here, does that mean i have to double my volva dosage if i want the same effect as if i were to run both the clomid and nolva?
    No you don't. 40/40/20/20 is just fine. If you pay attention to the studies i've referenced, you'll see that even just 20mg of Nolva stimulates the body to produce 150% above baseline testosterone levels in just 10 days. Increasing the dose to more than 40 doesn't elicit a stronger effect either.

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    ok perfect. Thanks for the help and this thread was very informative

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    all I run is Nolva also

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    Hey I wanted to do a first cycle with test only for first 8 weeks (might add proviron - not sure), i've read a lot of different opinions so i'm just wondering, if I followed Ronnie Rowland's 20 week blast i'm just wondering your opinions on doing 500 i.u's a week of hcg , aromasin on hand if I need it. Deloads 500 iu hcg also, and then at the end for pct I could do nolva 40/40/20/20 and hcg would be just for the first 2 weeks, at 2500 eod. Ronnie recommended nolva but I think it's not necessary. If this could work let me know what you think. Thanks man!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    I love you, Lemonada8!
    Totally agree with you here. The interesting thing is, that Nolvadex does seem to do the same thing but at a lesser degree. WIth Nolva, you just don't see the ER agonistic effects in certain tissues as prominent as Clomid. I wish I could find more specific studies into this but I can't find anything.
    Very interesting. I wish I could find some research that explains why this is the case (note that I haven't looked through all the references you cited just yet, so I may have yet to get to it).
    I wouldn't say your choice is very neandrethal. I am curious as to how effective it is in real application, and how long do you run clomid for in your PCT protocol? You mentioned the 'first part of PCT'. The first week? First two weeks? I wouldn't mind even just trying this out and getting bloodwork to compare it to other PCT protocols i've used. I'm always open to new ideas, and this is one that I haven't yet heard when it comes to clomid.
    Quick question: are we looking at the big picture here, or are we looking at this with a magnifying glass? I've noticed over time that often times, the pig picture (long term view of PCT) is often more important than the small little additions. I.e. overall HPTA recovery by the end of PCT vs short term HPTA recovery over the first couple weeks of PCT.
    For the PCT that i recommend, i say:
    Clomid: 100, 50, 25, 25
    Nolva: 40, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20

    clomid at 25mg ed is therapy for increased fertility in males, and boosts test along with sperm counts.
    the continued use of clomid at 100mg ED is what leads to LH insensitivity so after the first week, where it really kicks out the LH from the pit in that first week then start to slow down that pressure to minimize the potential problems. And with HCG usage during the cycle, the testes didnt 'dry out' and lose ITT volume which keeps them in their prime to produce testosterone .
    then the nolva for 2 weeks longer to maximize the return of test production and keep most imbalance sides away.

    and i view PCT as a whole, for the person who does one cycle and wants to keep the gains as much as possible and get a full recovery with hormone levels. that is more important in the long run, and not just the initial boost. Cuz with the drugs, you can get too high of a LH stimulation and when ur off the drugs u can have a rebound suppression because it is lower than the natural threshold set by the hypothalamus.

    and FYI, Testolactone is basically a AI. those arent really good for a PCT because yes it is true that estrogen is a key component of the negative feedback, you can cause delayed problems with its use in a PCT. You dont want to take out a factor in the recovery process ( the T/E ratio) because then you arent really truely recoverying, you are tilting the ratio in favor of T. then when u stop there is additoinal rebalancing of that ratio which can cause delayed problems.

    and with HCG, there has been some wild 'uses' said here, and i want to set it straight. HCG is to keep your testes funcitoning to keep the testosterone levels in teh testes high to keep the Leydig and sertoli cells good, and not struggle due to lack of hormone production. So by using it you maintain those cells during the cycle, and to keep that going you only need 250iu's at 2x a week.. 500iu 2x a week if you notice smaller testes ( i recommend use a measuring device to make sure you are accurate)
    Dont use HCG during a pct, it futher inhibits recovery and makes it longer to re-stabilize.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonada8

    For the PCT that i recommend, i say:
    Clomid: 100, 50, 25, 25
    Nolva: 40, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20

    clomid at 25mg ed is therapy for increased fertility in males, and boosts test along with sperm counts.
    the continued use of clomid at 100mg ED is what leads to LH insensitivity so after the first week, where it really kicks out the LH from the pit in that first week then start to slow down that pressure to minimize the potential problems. And with HCG usage during the cycle, the testes didnt 'dry out' and lose ITT volume which keeps them in their prime to produce testosterone .
    then the nolva for 2 weeks longer to maximize the return of test production and keep most imbalance sides away.

    and i view PCT as a whole, for the person who does one cycle and wants to keep the gains as much as possible and get a full recovery with hormone levels. that is more important in the long run, and not just the initial boost. Cuz with the drugs, you can get too high of a LH stimulation and when ur off the drugs u can have a rebound suppression because it is lower than the natural threshold set by the hypothalamus.

    and FYI, Testolactone is basically a AI. those arent really good for a PCT because yes it is true that estrogen is a key component of the negative feedback, you can cause delayed problems with its use in a PCT. You dont want to take out a factor in the recovery process ( the T/E ratio) because then you arent really truely recoverying, you are tilting the ratio in favor of T. then when u stop there is additoinal rebalancing of that ratio which can cause delayed problems.

    and with HCG, there has been some wild 'uses' said here, and i want to set it straight. HCG is to keep your testes funcitoning to keep the testosterone levels in teh testes high to keep the Leydig and sertoli cells good, and not struggle due to lack of hormone production. So by using it you maintain those cells during the cycle, and to keep that going you only need 250iu's at 2x a week.. 500iu 2x a week if you notice smaller testes ( i recommend use a measuring device to make sure you are accurate)
    Dont use HCG during a pct, it futher inhibits recovery and makes it longer to re-stabilize.
    So would you recommend this protocol:

    HCG during a test-E cycle at 250iu twice a week...then after last pin of test, run HCG ED at 500iu for 14 days, then drop HCG use and start pct of clomid and nolva?

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    No. Dont run HCG ED at all, its unnecessary. keep it at 2x a week untill first day of PCT ( actually taking pills)

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonada8
    No. Dont run HCG ED at all, its unnecessary. keep it at 2x a week untill first day of PCT ( actually taking pills)
    Ahh, ok. Thank you for the correction. So just continue the HCG at 250iu twice a week, stoping the day I commence pct of clomid and nolva?

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    yep... Good luck w/your cycle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judah View Post
    So would you recommend this protocol:

    HCG during a test-E cycle at 250iu twice a week...then after last pin of test, run HCG ED at 500iu for 14 days, then drop HCG use and start pct of clomid and nolva?
    I would add some Aromasin in there for PCT. HCG will cause an increase in E2 if the dose is high enough. And I don't think you need 100 of Clomid. That is way to high. I wouldn't go higher than 50 and I personally never use more than 25. Clomid can fvuck your eyes up in higher doses. Not worth the risk.

    I use formeron for PCT, its like Aromasin - along with Nolva and low dose clomid to jumpstart the pituitary. For PCT you need to get your balls working, it's the most imporant part of recovery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonada8 View Post
    No. Dont run HCG ED at all, its unnecessary. keep it at 2x a week untill first day of PCT ( actually taking pills)
    I second this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brohim View Post
    I would add some Aromasin in there for PCT. HCG will cause an increase in E2 if the dose is high enough. And I don't think you need 100 of Clomid. That is way to high. I wouldn't go higher than 50 and I personally never use more than 25. Clomid can fvuck your eyes up in higher doses. Not worth the risk.

    I use formeron for PCT, its like Aromasin - along with Nolva and low dose clomid to jumpstart the pituitary. For PCT you need to get your balls working, it's the most imporant part of recovery.
    his dosage is at 250ius. thats not high enough to cause the increase in E2. The increase in E2 is because there is too much LH in the body, which leads to increased test which results in increased E2.

    I disagree with the use of an AI during pct completely.

    I state my reasoning for the use of clomid at 100mg for the first week above.

    When pct begins, and hcg is used throughout the cycle his balls never stopped working. its the pituitary gland that needs to restart producing LH hence the use of SERMs. The HCG on cycle prevents his balls from stopping in the first place.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonada8 View Post
    his dosage is at 250ius. thats not high enough to cause the increase in E2. The increase in E2 is because there is too much LH in the body, which leads to increased test which results in increased E2.

    I disagree with the use of an AI during pct completely.

    I state my reasoning for the use of clomid at 100mg for the first week above.

    When pct begins, and hcg is used throughout the cycle his balls never stopped working. its the pituitary gland that needs to restart producing LH hence the use of SERMs. The HCG on cycle prevents his balls from stopping in the first place.
    Sounds like you know your stuff, I read about AI's and to use em' only if you need it, I asked Ronnie Rowland different questions and I just wanted to hear other opinions - so if I did his '20 week cycle', I could do 10 weeks, basically just start again and do another 10 weeks while using hcg at 500/week, aromasin on hand as well as using proviron and test for this cycle and I should be fine? Should I use test only or add proviron also, b/c it doesn't do TOO much?

    Thanks man, i'm reading as much as I can, idk where to go to find how your body works as far as hpta and lh ect, and how it all works together though.

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    This has been one hell of an informative read for me. Thanks guys. Quick question. My blood tests show lh & fsh at 0. I am shut down. I have been running a supplement called hcgenerate the entire Cycle that literally thousands swear by. Its use is to keep the boys kicking on cycle. As far as I can see, this supplement is not doing what it is said to do.

    That being said, I have true hcg on hand. Im in week 9 of my 16 week cycle of test cyp 500mg ew/masteron 400mg ew. Should I start the hcg now at 250iu 2x ew?

    Im guessing yes? And will I see the hcg show tht its working ( in the form of LH & fsh) in my next blood test in wk 12?

    Thanks everyone!
    Last edited by rage223; 08-05-2012 at 09:46 PM.

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    Bump for question...

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    HCG wont increase your LH or FSH. Those are made by the pituitary gland. HCG is synthetic LH which keeps your testes going during a cycle.

    Yes start HCG asap!

    TO stimuate LH and FSH, you have to use something that targets the pituitary gland. Clomid, nolva are common ones. GnRH would be direct stimulation.

    Its not good that FSH is at 0. There is a 2ndary feedback for FSH which helps keep it from goin to 0 and still be produced by the pituitary.

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    Hey Lemonada could you answer my question if you have time also? It's post #34, thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dtrain17 View Post
    Sounds like you know your stuff, I read about AI's and to use em' only if you need it, I asked Ronnie Rowland different questions and I just wanted to hear other opinions - so if I did his '20 week cycle', I could do 10 weeks, basically just start again and do another 10 weeks while using hcg at 500/week, aromasin on hand as well as using proviron and test for this cycle and I should be fine? Should I use test only or add proviron also, b/c it doesn't do TOO much?
    Thanks man, i'm reading as much as I can, idk where to go to find how your body works as far as hpta and lh ect, and how it all works together though.
    I dont really know Ronnie's 20 week cycle stuff, i stick with short cycles ( 7 weeks) with prop .

    If you are going to do that cycle, i would say def stay on the HCG the entire time that you are on cycle, and stop it when u start pct.
    As for the AI usage, If you are having sides n such then i would def say use one, other than that to use it as a precautionary method is wise depending on the dosage of test you are doing. Check out Swifto's thread on AI usage during a cycle, its a pretty good read.

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    Okay thanks man. I've read Swifto's last week, just getting different opinions, I read that the clomid is bad for you with using it too long or at high dosages so I figured hcg all the way through then I guess stop like you say for pct. Ronnie said to keep going but if it's not necessary i'll save my $$ and just use nolva, like I said I have aromasin on hand, never cycled before and was going to do test only at 500 mgs and 2nd cycle might be test at 500 or 750 with proviron 50 mgs.

    So do the standard nolva and you think if I do your method of doing clomid I shouldn't have problems or do you think I could get away with just nolva..I'm trying to do it as safely as possible.
    Btw is there any books you recommend that teach you about how everything works, ex. hpta and everything? Thanks for the help I appreciate it!!

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