08-11-2012, 11:56 AM #161
tren is plenty, especially if you are throwing it into your first cycle. It is a very strong compound. I would highly reccomend you do it EOD, period, instead of M/W/F to keep blood levels stable and side effects low. One of the other reasons side effects flare up, such as acne, is because blood levels are shooting and rollercoastering wildly up and down. Steady blood levels won't do that.
08-11-2012, 03:43 PM #162Junior Member
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do you think one would experience diminished sides if they pinned ed instead of eod to keep levels even more stable?
also, if you didnt shed any hair on a test only cycle (500mg a week) would it would be safe to say that you wont lose hair on tren or is tren just a whole different story. Have you had any hairloss at 800mg/week?
08-12-2012, 12:07 AM #163
I personally have never run tren ED, so I cannot say anything from experience. However, the word is that from those who have used tren ED, it does tend to keep blood levels even more stable and therefore people who do this report less side effects!
As far as hair shedding goes, the answer to this question is in the FAQ portion of the main post of this thread. Androgen-related hair loss is hereditary - you require the genetics for it in order to trigger it.
08-14-2012, 06:53 PM #164
08-14-2012, 08:56 PM #165
Ah, yes... methylated trenbolone ! Literally the strongest anabolic steroid ever, lol. It is approximately 12,000 - 30,000 times stronger than testosterone . Yeah, those weren't typos. I said twelve thousand to thirty thousand times stronger than test in the anabolic rating department. This is due to its methylation at the 17th carbon, which makes it available to be consumed orally, and also subsequently blasts its anabolic potential out of the stratosphere! Unfortunately, as you might already have guessed, liver toxicity is also pretty extreme with it. Its liver toxicity makes Anadrol -50 look like a multivitamin... Methyltrienolone is the most hepatoxic steroid EVER.
As far as it goes with its similarity in side effects to trenbolone, I can't really say. There aren't really too many people out there who have used this, as its primarily a designer steroid and it's very very rare. And as tempting as it may be to use it, I don't think I would ever use it even if I had access to it. I can definitely say that it is still a progestin, and would still act as a progestin in the body. That means you can expect all of the usual issues such as progesterone-related gyno, sexual dysfunction, prolactin increases, etc. But as far as other side effects that are seen with regular tren , such as insomnia, sweating, etc... I don't know. I would ASSUME that yes, those side effects would come with it. And all side effects associated with trenbolone would probably be far, FAR more hard-hitting with Methyltrienolone due to this:
Androgenic rating: 6,000 - 7,000
Anabolic rating: 12,000 - 30,000
Those are some pretty beastly numbers. Expect things to be serious business if/when using this stuff. The moment you disrespect it, you'll land yourself in a world of hurt.
08-14-2012, 09:07 PM #166
You forgot DImethyltrienolone. But I don't think that stuff has ever made it of the research lab.
08-14-2012, 09:16 PM #167
Oh i'm sure that perhaps some athletes and pro bodybuilders have probably had it made for them. With all those designer compounds floating around, I don't doubt thatperhaps Diemthyltrienolone may have been one of them, though rare i'm sure.
08-14-2012, 10:21 PM #168
anavar , i was reassured its var but maybe under dosed, that being said i have never ran var before.
in 1 week: at 80mg
i have no increase in strength, ok rule out dbol ,
loss of appetite
very bad gas
my arms and around my hips are becoming very vascular
sex makes me so winded after i cum , similiar to doing cardio on tren
During my work outs my head is a water fall
i took all 80 before cardio last week and with in 3 minutes of cardio i was sopping wet using a 7.5 incline walk at 3mph mainly in my tummy and head locations.
5lbs of weight, water? not bloated cept from teh gas and it passes with gas pills all in 1 week Monday and Monday weigh ins only of eating clean at maintenance calories.
quick to anger, but i dont get douche bag rage. im just snippy , people walking to close to me annoys me lol
its like i have all the sides of tren with this var... hence why i asked about oral tren.
i am running 400mg mast and test 600 both enanthate , but its only week 2 of injections, 3rd poke was yesterday. So i am trying to figure out if i have dummed down var or a winny/var dbol/var combo... tbol?? doesnt feel like tbol
On t nation and such people talk about strength from var in 2-3 weeks. where on here people say with in the first few days
Sorry if seems off topic , my research has lead me back to Methyltrienolone
Last edited by mockery; 08-14-2012 at 10:24 PM.
08-15-2012, 03:22 AM #169New Member
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I cant find any test to run with tren where im at. But i really want to do a cycle of tren. What's the worst that would happen if i ran tren only 300mg a week? I have did this before with around 25 pnd gain and the only side i got was lack of sleep for a week or so and night sweats. Didnt notice anything bad. Please let me know something asap because i just brewed up some fina and really want to start this week. What can or should i do? Plz get back at me, you guys rock.
08-15-2012, 05:59 AM #170
It sounds like you have something that isn't an AAS at all... sounds like some chemical that's just giving you these loads of side effects. I highly doubt it is methylated tren - that stuff is very rare to find to begin with. I would stop taking whatever talbets those are... its probably some chemical that gives all kinds of weird sides, and god knows what its doing to your body. I don't think even methylated tren would do as much shit to your body as you just described. Just stop.
testosterone ... its the cheapest and most common AAS out there. Search harder, you should be able to get some form of test.
I cannot sit here and tell you "sure, its alright to do tren without test, you can run it on its own, go for it man" when that's not what I condone at all. I'm not here to tell people what they want to hear - i'm here to help people with the best possible advice I can give with the knowledge and experience that I have. And my advice on tren-only cycles is: don't do them.
08-15-2012, 07:51 AM #171
08-15-2012, 07:53 AM #172
08-15-2012, 08:06 AM #173New Member
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Atomini, great thread. Very informative.
This may be out of your wheelhouse, but what are your opinions on low dose Tren in HRT?
I've read some interesting things on people using 75-100mg of test a week along with 50-100mg
of tren on TRT/HRT.
In your opinion, what would the positives and negatives of such a protocol be?
Do you think caber would be necessary with a 50mg/wk regimen of tren E?
08-15-2012, 08:34 AM #174
08-15-2012, 09:19 AM #175
08-15-2012, 10:57 AM #176Junior Member
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08-15-2012, 11:07 AM #177
08-15-2012, 11:12 AM #178
08-15-2012, 11:17 AM #179
08-15-2012, 11:22 AM #180
08-15-2012, 11:54 AM #181
Jesus Christ... forum is making me spaz out again...
08-15-2012, 11:59 AM #182
call u jacob two two
08-15-2012, 12:24 PM #183Associate Member
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Wow, reading all of your posts, Atomini, confuses me, lol. Not because of the validity of the information - because ultimately I don't know what is right and what is wrong, but because most of what I have been learning from this board is conflicting with what you say. But you seem very educated and this is where the confusion comes from. lol.
"My personal opinion is that I see far too many people excessively relying on HCG in the first place. It is very easy to destroy your body's endogenous LH secretion with it, and is one of the reasons why strongly advise against its constant use while on-cycle. IF it were to be used at all, I advise only during the first week or so of PCT to give the testes a jumpstart - that's IT."
"HCG is VERY important in cycles IMHO. It prevents the main reason the HPTA doesnt recover immediately post cycle - testicular dysfunction. It should be a staple of EVERY cycle causing shutdown IMHO. I suggest HCG be used at 125-250ius 2-3 times weekly (as per Dr.Crisler's advice) with an AI throughout the cycle lasting 6-12 weeks. This will maintain testicular size and function and prevent testicular dysfunction. It should also be noted that administering over "500ius will cause an increase in estrogen and progesterone, further hindering recovery" - Dr.Crisler."
As far as PCT, you say (not quoting) that Clomid is not necessary and can be damaging, and studies have shown that Nolva is much more effective dose for dose, yet others on here ("knowledgable memebers") swear on the use of Clomid and Nolva together for PCT
Now I am like...WTF should I do with HCG and PCT with the current cycle that I am on? lol...
08-15-2012, 12:36 PM #184Associate Member
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Oh, and one more thing, Atomini. Maybe you can add a "example cycle for beginners" in your OP in the FAQ section. I know you touched up on it throughout your text, but someone will have to read through the whole thing to find it versus being able to find it by skimming through it [(don't worry, I read it all..=))]
I know you said you would recomemnd 100mg test prop and 250mg tren per week, and a prolactin antagonist along with it, but for how long of each the test and tren? When to start PCT on such cycle? Your PCT recommendation? (which I already know you said Nolva at 40/40/20/20 I beleive)? Just a sample cycle would be nice in the FAQ. TIA
Last edited by Trying-Hard; 08-15-2012 at 12:39 PM.
08-15-2012, 02:42 PM #185
Of course you are going to hear conflicting information everywhere - this forum has been around for more than 10 years! As such, it will have accumulated every single cycle theory and protocol from here to Timbuktu, and dating all the way back to protocols and theories from the 1970s onwards!
There are a lot of cycling and PCT protocols and such that are just plain outdated, since many clinical studies have been performed in order to see what works best in many given areas. Other newer and more efficient compounds have arrived on the scene over the last two decades as well. Aromatase inhibitors were nonexistant prior to the mid 1990s, nolvadex and clomid were poorly understood ESPECIALLY in the bodybuilding and AAS-using scene. The concept of Post Cycle Therapy did not exist AT ALL until the mid-late 1990s! Nobody did 'PCT' in the 90s, or 80s, or prior! Nobody even knew what the hell that was, it didn't exist.
A lot of people wonder "why isn't there an exact science to all of this?" Well, I am here telling people THERE IS! The problem is that in the AAS-using world, there is a lot of misinformation, 'bro-talk', 'bro-science', parroting and garbage advice and information that is circulated.
Prior to the 90s, nobody knew much about AAS at all. Most of the practices people did were experimental things, and most protocols (if there even were any) were developed by meatheads in gyms - NOT by doctors, scientists or ANYONE in the medical community. Ever since the original ban (and criminalization in the USA) in 1990, it has driven the practice further underground. As a result, doctors, scientists, and the medical community as a whole have been extremely reluctant to engage in research surrounding AAS use for the purposes of performance/physique enhancement. Now, with that being said, a ton of medical studies have been done and most of them have only happened within the last two decades. More are being conducted, and i'm very happy to see that no longer is this area of medicine and science being plainly ignored. I'm glad that medical application is stepping in here and that more people are looking towards science and medicine for proper science-based instructional use on AAS, rather than how it was before where the only people/place that instructional use on AAS was coming from was from meatheads in gym environments - people completely unqualified to develop protocols and advice for use of such things.
However, to this day the medical community for the most part refuses to ackgnowledge AAS use for the purpose of performance and physique enhancement as a legitemate use. And it is for this reason that doctors and the medical community in general must refuse to provide proper medical supervision of cycles, and this is mainly because of the legality and stigma surrounding the whole thing. It is extremely rare that you'll find a doctor who will provide proper supervision during your cycles. I know of ONE doctor who is okay with it, and by acting as such I believe he is potentially placing his license to practice medicine at risk. Anyhow, nearly all other doctors are not willing to do the same thing. As a result, it has been for the most part left up to the AAS-using community to come up with proper theories and protocols on AAS use, and this is largely done by people without medical background. However, as I mentioned... thankfully since the 1990s, clinical studies and information from them have played a large role in providing logical assistance to AAS-related usage protocols, but we still don't have that 100% support from the scientific/medical community to ackgnowledge AAS use for performance enhancement as a legitemate use.
My goal here is to stop the spread of non-science based misinformation and 'bro-talk' that so horribly plagues this little world of AAS use for performance enhancement. I'm here to engage in intelligent scientific and medical study in this particular arena of endocrinology. I enjoy sharing my knowledge here in the effort to help people out and assist them in their hormone augmentation as safely as possible, and in turn gain knowledge from the dynamic of seeing how others respond to my advice and their cycles, etc.
Does this mean Swifto doesn't know what he is talking about? No... he is a very knowledgeable member, he knows very well what he is talking about and has more cycle experience than me. However, what is the context by which he is giving this advice on HCG ? I think it is aimed more so towards people who conduct very long cycles (14 or more weeks). You also must factor in the dose of a given cycle, as heavier dosed cycles will obviously impact the body's HPTA far more. And if you are running heavy dosed long cycles... well, you can put 2 and 2 together and figure it out yourself! You also must understad that everybody responds differently to every compound, every dose, and every cycle length. There is no one-set one-size-fits-all protocol for EVERYONE. Some people will need to modify slightly. I still maintain what I said about the use of HCG - if you cycle moderately, use moderate doses, and keep your cycles as short as possible, then you should be able to minimize the need for HCG. As far as it goes with clomid, I believe it to be worthless - period. I have mentioned it before and I will mention it again: nearly all of the protocols out there that include clomid in them are outdated old protocols, and the reason people go around regurgitating these protocols to others is simply because someone told them, and so therefore they are telling others now to do it. It's called parroting. These outdated protocols still tend to echo through the community, and the truth is that people need to use logic and rational thinking to put a stop to it. They need to look at the actual hard evidence and data for themselves - the clinical studies - and see for themselves that nolvadex is far superior than clomid, and that clomid is essentially for the most part during this day and age, a bygone of the 1980s.
The biggest problem I find people run into is that when they are new to this world of AAS, they do a lot of research (which is of course a good thing). But the problem is that they read everything with extreme contexts and start to freak out. People will read about how most AAS convert into estrogen and DHT on cycle, and how it will suppress the body's endogenous hormone production, etc. So then they freak out and think they need to buy copious amounts of aromatase inhibitors, SERMs, 5-AR blockers, shoot HCG into themselves every day on cycle, and literally try to combat EVERY SINGLE THING that they read about. I have to tell these people "whoa, calm down and just take a step back for a second and look at the big picture". You need to realize this is why we start first cycles with testosterone -only, and start things slow so you can gauge how you react to it. Not everyone will get gyno, not everyone will get acne, etc. etc. and so you must learn what YOU need to do. If you just go off and buy every single blocker of everything, and run it on your first cycle... how will you ever know if you are even sensitive at all to these side effects you're attempting to block? The answer is you don't know! You could be wasting your money buying all these ancilliaries and running them at full blast doses to block side effects you aren't even prone to! This is where we use logic and reason when we plan cycles and do research, etc.
I would put up a tren cycle for beginners, but the problem is I reached my max capacity for that first post. I will see if I can add it, or perhaps get the admin to allow more characters to be typed into the post. My only problem with creating an 'example tren cycle for beginners' is that I feel it is too much like spoonfeeding people. I want to leave my tren thread as informative as possible, but just ambiguous enough so as not to have a bunch of newbie retards coming on here thinking that they can run tren for their first cycle because there's a model cycle laid out for them. The idea with keeping the post somewhat ambiguous is because it is understood that trenbolone is for the experienced user - and if you're experienced enough to begin considering trenbolone, then you're experienced enough and knowledgeable enough to be able to know how to construct your own cycles without having to follow some cookie-cutter cycle layout made up by me. And i've mentioned this in the main post.
Last edited by Atomini; 08-15-2012 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Typo
08-15-2012, 03:11 PM #186Associate Member
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- Jul 2012
Read every word of your reply. understood. Thanks.
So if you only advise to use HCG in the first week of PCT only, what HCG dose do you recommend for a newbie that is finishing up a 12 week cycle of test only at 500mg/wk?
If you don't want to answer here and clutter this thread with non Tren context, I would highly appreciate it if you PM me. Thank you!
Last edited by Trying-Hard; 08-15-2012 at 03:16 PM.
08-15-2012, 03:17 PM #187
IF you are dead-set on using HCG , 500iu/day for the first week or so (7-10 days) with aromasin as your aromatase inhibitor at full dose 25mg/day while you use the HCG. Nolvadex is taken this whole time as well. When the HCG stops, the Aromasin stops. The Nolvadex is then continued for the duration of your PCT.
Idea here is to immediately stimulate the leydig cells of the testes with synthetic gonadotropins (HCG) in the first week. After that, the testes should be sufficiently stimulated to be producing testosterone while the administration of nolvadex is stimulating the pituitary to release endogenous gonadotropin to carry things along permanently.
08-15-2012, 04:38 PM #188Associate Member
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08-15-2012, 05:06 PM #189
Reason being is that when you use HCG, it will increase aromatase and estrogen activity in addition to stimulating testosterone secretion. With aromatase also going up, we can't afford to have this especially at a time when we want to keep estrogen manageable, and we are trying to recover from the cycle we just did. Therefore, aromasin keeps the increased aromatase activity (due to the HCG) in check.
The other more minor reason is that lowering estrogen creates a feedback loop whereby the pituitary will signal more gonadotropin release to increase testosterone production. I myself have run Nolvadex and Aromasin PCTs before (without HCG), and my recovery was just fine.
I would suggest you go to the PCT section of the forum and look at the thread 'PCT by steroid .com' (it should be stickied).
08-15-2012, 05:11 PM #190Junior Member
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- Oct 2008
Atomini, great thread.
Quick question for you, think you covered this but gonna double check.
I was planing on running a cycle similiar to:
Week 1-12: Sus 500mg - 750mg
Week 1-10: Tren E 600mg
Week 1-6: Dbol 50mg ED
Now, I read how tren is 5x stronger then test, and how you suggest using higher tren, and trt dose of test...
So, in LBM gain, am I wasting the extra 500mg etc of testosterone ? Will it make any extra gains or more side effects, due to elevated estrogen?
Would you suggest:
Week 1-12: SUS 250mg
Week 1-10: Tren E 600mg
Week 1-6: Dbol 50mg ED
Thanks a lot, appreciate it.
08-15-2012, 05:14 PM #191Associate Member
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- Jul 2012
Ok, and just for the sake of availability, can I use Arimidex instead or Aromasin ? If so, how would you dose that with the HCG ? Right now I am taking A-dex @ .25mg EOD (irrelevant to the discussion, just threw that out there).
Atomini, my wife is a doc and you should have seen her facial expression when I told her I am going to get on Cabergoline one day when I get on Tren . LOL. I am sure you would have gotten a good laugh.
08-15-2012, 05:24 PM #192
Nolvadex . Arimidex and Letro have been shown to dramatically lower blood plasma levels of Nolvadex - not something very good for PCT! Aromasin is also far better on cholesterol profiles than the other two major AIs.
Did your wife give you that look as though she was scared that she wouldn't be able to keep up in bed? Because that's exactly what that stuff will do to you, you'll be able to outperform any woman lol.
Your revised cycle looks much better, although I would eliminate sustanon and use a single-estered testosterone instead of a blend. Use test E instead... I hate sustanon or any testosterone blend product. There are a few posts and threads in this forum that explain why sustanon is a horrible product that throws blood plasma levels all over the place and creates sharp peaks and valleys, which ends up causing stupid side effects all the time. In order to make the most of sustanon, you need to be pinning it every other day as well.
And as far as the dbol goes... i'd say scrap it, but that's just me... i'm the guy who hates on every anabolic steroid that isn't test or tren. If you're using it for a kickstart, then sure, go ahead I guess.
08-15-2012, 06:47 PM #193
08-15-2012, 06:57 PM #194
08-15-2012, 09:37 PM #195
08-16-2012, 12:36 PM #196
Nope, I have no experience running Letro at all for anything. I've never had to use it, nor have I ever had the desire to use it. Letro is a bad choice for PCT as well.
08-16-2012, 06:11 PM #197New Member
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- Aug 2012
Hey Atomini i need your help with my cycle that I want to run. I was looking to run this:
week 1-10 test e @ 250 twice a week (mon, thurs)
week 4-10 tren ace @ 100mg (mon, wed, fri) i can only get 100ml Vials. Or should i start from week 1?
week 1-4 dbol at 50mgs a day
Week 1-10 Letro (or dont bother)
Nolva HCG Aromasin Vitamin E
1 20mgs/day 500iu/day 25mgs/day 1000iu/day
2 20mgs/day 500iu/day 25mgs/day 1000iu/day
3 20mgs/day 500iu/day 25mgs/day 1000iu/day
4 20mgs/day 25mgs/day
5 20mgs/day 25mgs/day
Thanks for the help and comment A.S.A.P. i need to order soon! Thanks !
08-16-2012, 07:26 PM #198
Why are you throwing the tren into week 4? Why not just run it from the beginning?
Why letro through the whole cycle? Horrible idea, don't bother.
Here's a better plan for you:
Weeks 1-4: Dbol @ 50mg/day
Weeks 1-10: Tren Ace @ 100mg EOD (NOT m/w/f unless you want wildly spiking blood levels going up and down like rollercoasters, and end up with worse side effects - just make sure its EOD)
Keep aromasin on hand for estrogen control to combat any potential estrogen-related side effects (do not use letro, its overkill and you will get estrogen rebound when you cease it). PCT looks solid. I like how you went with the PCT by steroid .com, it is my favorite.
08-16-2012, 07:55 PM #199Banned
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08-16-2012, 10:32 PM #200
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