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  1. #1
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    Alcohol and dbol

    I plan on using Dbol as part of my next cycle. I am aware it is very harsh on the liver and it goes without saying I will be taking milk thistle and completely avoiding alcohol while on it. I only plan on running it for 3-4 weeks and then I will let the test. take over. My question is how long after using dbol should I wait be for I go out and have a couple drinks with my friends? And im not talking about going out and getting drunk because I know alcohol and body building do not mix.

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    If you're that serious you shouldn't at all. Especially if you're currently taking an oral.

    If I'm on cycle I will let myself have a drink every once in a while, but If I have an oral involved it's just a no for me. Would rather be safe then sorry!

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    they are both out of your system pretty quickly. if you manage to wait a full day or even 2 from finishing the dbol then your liver is already at work repairing itself. alcohol is probably worse than dbol for the liver imo, it just goes down too easily and nobody ever really gives a thought to the damage it can do. living in thailand i know quite a few people who have retired here to drink their pensions away, most of them die from liver failure. does it happen from one drink? no of course not but who has just one drink?

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    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahbuddy289 View Post
    I plan on using Dbol as part of my next cycle. I am aware it is very harsh on the liver and it goes without saying I will be taking milk thistle and completely avoiding alcohol while on it. I only plan on running it for 3-4 weeks and then I will let the test. take over. My question is how long after using dbol should I wait be for I go out and have a couple drinks with my friends? And im not talking about going out and getting drunk because I know alcohol and body building do not mix.
    dont suck in the broscience.

    one or two once a week will not do you any harm at all. ive run drol/dbol cocktails and had still have had my usual 2 330ml bottles of leffe every Sat night. not one bit of harm, and i've had bloods to prove it (on trt).

    obviously going out and getting wasted 2-3 times a week is a diff story but that in itself will wreck the liver. as will running stupid doses of orals, moderation = safe usage. orals are not half as sore on the liver as most hyped up BS would lead you to believe.

    waste money on milk thistle if you like, but i havent used in for around 4yrs now, its unproven.
    Last edited by dec11; 10-05-2012 at 05:49 PM.

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    Yes like I said... Im serious enough to train, diet, and use aas so I will not be getting wasted but I will go out once a week and have a drink or two with friends.... Thanks for the responses guys. I dont take using aas lightly so I just felt the need to ask.

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    Times Roman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dec11 View Post
    dont suck in the broscience.

    one or two once a week will not do you any harm at all. ive run drol/dbol cocktails and had still have had my usual 2 330ml bottles of leffe every Sat night. not one bit of harm, and i've had bloods to prove it (on trt).

    obviously going out and getting wasted 2-3 times a week is a diff story but that in itself will wreck the liver. as will running stupid doses of orals, moderation = safe usage. orals are not half as sore on the liver as most hyped up BS would lead you to believe.

    waste money on milk thistle if you like, but i havent used in for around 4yrs now, its unproven.
    agree. almost. the drinking and the dbol will make your liver panels go up. It won't waste your liver right out the gate. but over time, if left unchecked, it could become a problem.

    I personally use milk thistle, and there are sufficient studies out there verifiying that it is an effective liver protectant.

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    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    agree. almost. the drinking and the dbol will make your liver panels go up. It won't waste your liver right out the gate. but over time, if left unchecked, it could become a problem.

    I personally use milk thistle, and there are sufficient studies out there verifiying that it is an effective liver protectant.
    have you had bloods to verify? mine came back perfect and that was 5days after discontinuing 75mg drol and 35mg dbol .

    liver values elevating and liver values elevating dangerously are too different things completely

    another concern is that checks on a lot of milk thistle brands showed they contained very little of the active ingredient

    any studies on steroids and milk thistle? i can only ever find anecdotal advice. i go on my bloods anyhow..........
    Last edited by dec11; 10-05-2012 at 06:10 PM.

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    In the big picture, though, the milk thistle products that you can buy at a health food store just don't work, said study author Dr. Michael Fried, director of the University of North Carolina Liver Center. "There's really no benefit to be treated with milk thistle."
    According to an information sheet from the University of Maryland, people have used milk thistle for thousands of years to treat mushroom poisoning, liver problems -- particularly those due to alcoholism -- and hepatitis. Milk thistle products are derived from the seeds of the white-streaked sunflower-like plant, which was named, according to legend, for milk that fell from the breast of the Virgin Mary.
    Milk thistle capsules are fairly inexpensive and may cost just pennies each, although some recommendations suggest that people take a few each day.
    Fried estimated that perhaps a third of patients with chronic liver disease have tried milk thistle.
    In the new study, researchers took 154 hepatitis C patients who hadn't responded well to drug treatment and randomly assigned them to take daily doses of 420 milligrams (mg) of milk thistle extract, 700 mg of milk thistle extract or a placebo. (Those doses are much higher than typical recommendations.) They took the capsules for six months.
    A few patients -- two in each group -- showed signs of progress after the six months. "We didn't find any benefits whatsoever," Fried said.
    Symptoms were about the same among the three groups, suggesting that milk thistle doesn't cause noticeable side effects.
    Patients often turn to milk thistle because they're frustrated by the inability of medicine to relieve the symptoms of their liver disease, explained Dr. Eugene Schiff, director of the Center for Liver Diseases at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine. Milk thistle appears to be safe, he said, but it just doesn't have any effect.

    The good news is that new drugs are on the horizon that should help improve the treatment of hepatitis C, Schiff said.
    The study appears in the July 18 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association.
    More information
    For more about milk thistle, try the U.S. National Library of Medicine.
    SOURCES: Michael Fried, M.D., professor, medicine, and director, UNC Liver Center, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill; Eugene Schiff, M.D, professor, medicine, and director, Center for Liver Diseases, Schiff Liver Institute and Hepatology Laboratory, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine; July 18, 2012, Journal of the American Medical Association
    Last Updated: July 17, 2012

  9. #9
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    my liver panel tests came back fantastic after 4 weeks dbol @25mg daily and test e 500wk with no liver support e.g. milk thistle tudca etc. i'm not using that as evidence to suggest or recommend anyone else do the same. i think the most harm from having a drink or two while on cycle is from the poor choices made after having the drinks rather than the drinks themselves.

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    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmms View Post
    my liver panel tests came back fantastic after 4 weeks dbol@25mg daily and test e 500wk with no liver support e.g. milk thistle tudca etc. i'm not using that as evidence to suggest or recommend anyone else do the same. i think the most harm from having a drink or two while on cycle is from the poor choices made after having the drinks rather than the drinks themselves.
    exactly, its all overblown BS. moderation is the key, in the oral you use and the lifestyle choices.

    i really dont see any harm in debunking popular myths WITH experienced views.

  11. #11
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    My liver likes NAC. They're in a relationship right now and they have a joint facebook page.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dec11 View Post
    have you had bloods to verify? mine came back perfect and that was 5days after discontinuing 75mg drol and 35mg dbol .

    liver values elevating and liver values elevating dangerously are too different things completely

    another concern is that checks on a lot of milk thistle brands showed they contained very little of the active ingredient

    any studies on steroids and milk thistle? i can only ever find anecdotal advice. i go on my bloods anyhow..........
    yes, I've ran orals with and without milk thistle, and the milk thistle panels were in the low range.

    I've posted links to studies and clinical data in other threads before. the only thing milk thistle really doesn't help is hep c.

    when i purchase milk thistle, i DO NOT go to the health food stores. I get mine in bulk, one kilo at a time, and typically take a heaping 3 gram scoop each day. maybe the reason it doesn't work for some is that they are not taking sufficient quantites?

    my personal opinion is that anytime I'm going to take an item, I always try to get it in bulk. I can see where some are taking a cap or two a day and not seeing the improvement they should be getting due to low dose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    yes, I've ran orals with and without milk thistle, and the milk thistle panels were in the low range.

    I've posted links to studies and clinical data in other threads before. the only thing milk thistle really doesn't help is hep c.

    when i purchase milk thistle, i DO NOT go to the health food stores. I get mine in bulk, one kilo at a time, and typically take a heaping 3 gram scoop each day. maybe the reason it doesn't work for some is that they are not taking sufficient quantites?

    my personal opinion is that anytime I'm going to take an item, I always try to get it in bulk. I can see where some are taking a cap or two a day and not seeing the improvement they should be getting due to low dose.
    teach me how to be thrifty!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dec11 View Post
    have you had bloods to verify? mine came back perfect and that was 5days after discontinuing 75mg drol and 35mg dbol .

    liver values elevating and liver values elevating dangerously are too different things completely

    another concern is that checks on a lot of milk thistle brands showed they contained very little of the active ingredient

    any studies on steroids and milk thistle? i can only ever find anecdotal advice. i go on my bloods anyhow..........
    here's the other thought i had dec.

    it's an analogy, but i think the correlation fits.

    I knew a guy that was a heavy drinker, and had cirrhosis of the liver by the time he was 45. Now I've got anther "friend", well, more like my womans uncle. anyways, he's been a heavy heavy drinker all his life, every day, since he was a teenager. he's early 80's now, and still drinks.

    How is it one bloke gets cirrhosis early, and another bloke that drinks much more, for many more years, gets a free pass?

    Dec, I think alot of it might have to do with genetics. If you can do orals and no changes to your liver panels, then count yourself as one of the blessed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    teach me how to be thrifty!
    PM me what you are looking for, and then I'll let you know where I get it.

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    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    here's the other thought i had dec.

    it's an analogy, but i think the correlation fits.

    I knew a guy that was a heavy drinker, and had cirrhosis of the liver by the time he was 45. Now I've got anther "friend", well, more like my womans uncle. anyways, he's been a heavy heavy drinker all his life, every day, since he was a teenager. he's early 80's now, and still drinks.

    How is it one bloke gets cirrhosis early, and another bloke that drinks much more, for many more years, gets a free pass?

    Dec, I think alot of it might have to do with genetics. If you can do orals and no changes to your liver panels, then count yourself as one of the blessed.
    im sorry mate, but we are just going to disagree on this. if someone has something underlying then milk thistle wont help them. orals are way way overblown as far as toxicity is concerned. the medical community is undecided on what if anything milk thistle does. there is no evidence at all of it protecting against oral steroids . i really dont think functioning livers are necessarily genetic dependant, thats just a wild statement. also, livers repair and regenerated themselves so i doubt any one person is 'blessed'.

    how do you know something is legit just by buying in bulk?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    here's the other thought i had dec.

    it's an analogy, but i think the correlation fits.

    I knew a guy that was a heavy drinker, and had cirrhosis of the liver by the time he was 45. Now I've got anther "friend", well, more like my womans uncle. anyways, he's been a heavy heavy drinker all his life, every day, since he was a teenager. he's early 80's now, and still drinks.

    How is it one bloke gets cirrhosis early, and another bloke that drinks much more, for many more years, gets a free pass?

    Dec, I think alot of it might have to do with genetics. If you can do orals and no changes to your liver panels, then count yourself as one of the blessed.
    a friend of mine here just died recently. he was mid to late 60's and a heavy drinker for his entire adult life. he didn't drink coffee in the morning, he drank whiskey or vodka or anything else with alcohol. in the years i knew him, i don't recall ever seeing him drink anything that didn't contain alcohol. i think he probably drank more in the 5 years i knew him than i've had in my entire life. crazy. his eyes weren't white anymore, they were yellow. he couldn't write anything without help as his hands shook too much. he could neither drive a motorbike or a car, not just because he was always drunk but physically, just couldn't do it. i'm not sure how he managed to keep that going for the 5 years i knew him but he did and i don't think he was blessed. the liver is an amazing piece of work. /ramble

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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman

    agree. almost. the drinking and the dbol will make your liver panels go up. It won't waste your liver right out the gate. but over time, if left unchecked, it could become a problem.

    I personally use milk thistle, and there are sufficient studies out there verifiying that it is an effective liver protectant.
    tr milk thistle does nothing unless your dosing 12-15 gram daily

    fair enough your bloods came back fine, that is because whatever you ran didnt effect them

    toxicity of compounds is massivly exaggerated here lately

    i had bloods recently, 80mg tbol, 100mg var, 20mg accutane and doc didnt deem necessary to consult me over results just a simple phonecall from his nurse to say liver wise that everything is in normal ranges

    i also am fond of a drink and not using any form of liver protection
    Last edited by DanB; 10-05-2012 at 08:56 PM.

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    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanB View Post
    tr milk thistle does nothing unless your dosing 12-15 gram daily

    fair enough your bloods came back fine, that is because whatever you ran didnt effect them

    toxicity of compounds is massivly exaggerated here lately
    plus the fact that you arent going to constantly use dbol for the 'over time' effect, and the fact that the liver quickly repairs any damage that might occur

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_thistle
    Toxin-induced liver damage

    Research suggests that milk thistle extracts both prevent and repair damage to the liver from toxic chemicals and medications. Workers who had been exposed to vapors from toxic chemicals (toluene and/or xylene) for 5–20 years were given either a standardized milk thistle extract (80% silymarin) or placebo for 30 days.[11] The workers taking the milk thistle extract showed significant improvement in liver function tests (ALT and AST) and platelet counts vs. the placebo group.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2692696/


    Abstract.


    Failure and high systemic toxicity of conventional cancer therapies have accelerated the focus on the search for newer agents, which could prevent and/or slow-down cancer growth and have more human acceptability by being less or non-toxic. Silymarin is one such agent, which has been extensively used since ages for the treatment of liver conditions, and thus has possibly the greatest patient acceptability. In recent years, increasing body of evidence has underscored the cancer preventive efficacy of silymarin in both in vitro and in vivo animal models of various epithelial cancers. Apart from chemopreventive effects, other noteworthy aspects of silymarin and its active constituent silibinin in cancer treatment include their capability to potentiate the efficacy of known chemotherapeutic drugs, as an inhibitor of multidrug resistance associated proteins, and as an adjunct to the cancer therapeutic drugs due to their organ-protective efficacy specifically liver, and immunostimulatory effects. Widespread use of silymarin for liver health in humans and commercial availability of its formulations with increased bioavailability, further underscore the necessity of carrying out controlled clinical trials with these agents in cancer patients. In this review, we will briefly discuss the outcomes of clinical trials being conducted by us and others in cancer patients to provide insight into the clinical relevance of the observed chemopreventive effects of these agents in various epithelial cancer models.


    Mates,
    there is much more data out there. But I've put together a decent agrument before, and really don't feel like being diligent every time this discussion comes up. The facts are that taken in sufficient doses, Milk Thistle will improve liver function, and readily too.
    Last edited by Times Roman; 10-05-2012 at 09:28 PM.

  21. #21
    DanB is offline Banned
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    chemicals and medications, what were they exactly? and what doses of meds and milk thistle?

    there is a reason why everybody (except supp companys etc) says it is garbage

    continue taking it, that is your decision but i.m.e 1. things are massivly exaggerated here, have you ever looked into the massive (not massive but comments here would lead you to believe they are yet they are administered by medical professionals and considered safe) theraputic doses of anadrol used for extended periods with little to no problems

    and 2. skittles are more effective then low dose milk thistle i.m.o

  22. #22
    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    there is also an equal amount disputing it, as i said, i'll trust my blood work and the fact Dr Scally even rubbishes the stuff lol.

    you still havent provided conclusive evidence that it protects against oral compounds

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanB View Post
    and 2. skittles are more effective then low dose milk thistle i.m.o
    Skittles opposed the AAS-induced oxidative stress and the rise in liver lipids and circulating ALT in subjects of a study. Writing something with big words making it sound official usually convinces people of what you are writing although it may be utter bullsh1t.

    Milk thistle has been shown to be beneficial to liver function, the evidence which has been presented however isn't directly correlated to AAS and hasn't convinced me to include it if I were to run an oral.

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    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    heres an eye opener. keep wasting money on it if you wish............





    Anabolic steroid -induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated?

    Dickerman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.


    Source

    The Department of Biomedical Science, University of North Texas Health Science Center, Fort Worth 76107-2699, USA.


    Abstract

    OBJECTIVE:

    There have been numerous reports of hepatic dysfunction secondary to anabolic steroid use based on elevated levels of serum aminotransferases. This study was conducted to distinguish between serum aminotransaminase elevations secondary to intense resistance training and anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity in elite bodybuilders.

    DESIGN:

    This was a case-control study of serum chemistry profiles from bodybuilders using and not using anabolic steroids with comparisons to a cohort of medical students and patients with hepatitis.

    PARTICIPANTS:

    The participants were bodybuilders taking self-directed regimens of anabolic steroids (n = 15) and bodybuilders not taking steroids (n = 10). Blood chemistry profiles from patients with viral hepatitis (n = 49) and exercising and nonexercising medical students (592) were used as controls.

    MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:

    The focus in blood chemistry profiles was aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT), and creatine kinase (CK) levels.

    RESULTS:

    In both groups of bodybuilders, CK, AST, and ALT were elevated, whereas GGT remained in the normal range. In contrast, patients with hepatitis had elevations of all three enzymes: ALT, AST, and GGT. Creatine kinase (CK) was elevated in all exercising groups. Patients with hepatitis were the only group in which a correlation was found between aminotransferases and GGT.

    CONCLUSION:

    Prior reports of anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity based on elevated aminotransferase levels may have been overstated, because no exercising subjects, including steroid users, demonstrated hepatic dysfunction based on GGT levels. Such reports may have misled the medical community to emphasize steroid-induced hepatotoxicity when interpreting elevated aminotransferase levels and disregard muscle damage. For these reasons, when evaluating hepatic function in cases of anabolic steroid therapy or abuse, CK and GGT levels should be considered in addition to ALT and AST levels as essential elements of the assessment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanB View Post
    chemicals and medications, what were they exactly? and what doses of meds and milk thistle?

    there is a reason why everybody (except supp companys etc) says it is garbage

    continue taking it, that is your decision but i.m.e 1. things are massivly exaggerated here, have you ever looked into the massive (not massive but comments here would lead you to believe they are yet they are administered by medical professionals and considered safe) theraputic doses of anadrol used for extended periods with little to no problems

    and 2. skittles are more effective then low dose milk thistle i.m.o
    skittles may or may not be more effective than low dose milk thistle, but the chances of getting shot are too great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder

    Skittles opposed the AAS-induced oxidative stress and the rise in liver lipids and circulating ALT in subjects of a study. Writing something with big words making it sound official usually convinces people of what you are writing although it may be utter bullsh1t.

    Milk thistle has been shown to be beneficial to liver function, the evidence which has been presented however isn't directly correlated to AAS and hasn't convinced me to include it if I were to run an oral.
    hold on what "big words to sound offical" are you on about?

    disagree if you like, but im not talking bullshit, if i am then majority of people with same opinion are also full of shit by your reasoning yeah?

    people alot smarter then you and me

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmms

    skittles may or may not be more effective than low dose milk thistle, but the chances of getting shot are too great.
    getting shot?lol where did that come from? am i missing something?

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    I need to frontload advil again...

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    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    I need to frontload advil again...
    haha

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    Read the first sentence of my post I am agreeing with you, I think you misinterpreted my post and what it is directed at.

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    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder View Post
    Read the first sentence of my post I am agreeing with you, I think you misinterpreted my post and what it is directed at.
    yeah dan, ffs waken up would ya?!! you on the slurp again????

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    Austinite, if you wish to refute anything I state I would politely ask you to do so in an intelligent manner. I don't really know how to respond to your comments otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder
    Read the first sentence of my post I am agreeing with you, I think you misinterpreted my post and what it is directed at.
    ah ok lol

    my apologies
    Last edited by DanB; 10-05-2012 at 10:44 PM.

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    dec11 is offline 'everything louder than everything else'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder View Post
    Austinite, if you wish to refute anything I state I would politely ask you to do so in an intelligent manner. I don't really know how to respond to your comments otherwise.
    he's clowning mate

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    Quote Originally Posted by dec11
    yeah dan, ffs waken up would ya?!! you on the slurp again????
    nope sober as a judge, mabey thats the problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder View Post
    Austinite, if you wish to refute anything I state I would politely ask you to do so in an intelligent manner. I don't really know how to respond to your comments otherwise.
    huh? I would politely ask that you relax.

  37. #37
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    Oh ok, sorry. I have a hard time interpreting jokes. I will update the frontloading thread when I come home and include some common OTC meds for reference.

  38. #38
    austinite's Avatar
    austinite is online now HRT Specialist ~ LowTestosterone.com ~ Monitor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder View Post
    Oh ok, sorry. I have a hard time interpreting jokes. I will update the frontloading thread when I come home and include some common OTC meds for reference.
    heh. Consider a much higher AI dose, bro...

    ^^ THAT WAS A JOKE.

  39. #39
    Phased is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    My liver likes NAC. They're in a relationship right now and they have a joint facebook page.
    With you on this one 100%.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanB View Post
    getting shot?lol where did that come from? am i missing something?
    just being sarcastic man, remember the zimmerman/trayvon court case going on right now...

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