Too high for too long, supraphysiological mini cycle

[ilovelamp]

I've been on TRT for a couple of years now, and have come to realize a few things. My journey started with 5 grams of androgel and some HCG , and ended up taking me from a total testosterone in the low hundreds to one hovering around 1,500 ng/dL. Now, you can imagine the kind of things this drastic spike did to my body. I was essentially starved of test for quite awhile, and I think that was my doctors reasoning for leaving me up there to cruise so high, at least at first. A few months passed and still no request to lower any of my dosages by my doctor. At this point I sure as hell wasn't going to argue. I had gained 40 lbs in five months, and was feeling like..well the shit.

Fastforward to six months later and I started to notice something was off. That incredible muscle tone I had developed over the past year was slowly fading. Only because I was still looking and feeling good, did I ignore what was happening. As weeks passed, I started to realize I was getting smaller, which was strange because the scales hadn't budged. I weighed the same but looked as though I had lost 15 lbs or so. I go in to see the doc and check how everything's looking lab wise. Test is still up there, 900 ng/dL and E2 is in check. I had heard that for some transdermals eventually stop absorbing correctly, something with the stratum corneum or epidermis thickening, but I never thought anything of it because of the results androgel was giving me.

As time went on I knew something was definitely up. I made the switch to injections, first at 120 mg every two weeks, a shitty protocol for sure. That obviously didn't work so I was bumped up to 200 mg a week and have been there ever since (keep in mind this is two years after starting a gel). Recently I've been searching for answers on why everything shifted.

I thought maybe it was a thyroid issue, despite never really losing any weight, I had lost muscle and hyperthyrodisim could possible account for that. T4 and TSH both came up completely normal..which put an end to that potential theory. I then considered the possibility that after that much time with supraphysiological testosterone levels , I had developed an androgen resistance, or down regulation. After reading into that, I discovered that the scientific verdict on androgen receptor down regulation is that it doesn't occur, rather up regulation seems more fitting for real world results.

So that leaves me to consider that something goes haywire when testosterone levels are left out of that normal window, and into the supraphysiological range for too long. I've had my liver checked out, ALT, AST, all the enzymes and everything in range, nothing going on there. I also read into a few articles that mentioned insulin resistance as a result of supraphysiological testosterone levels. Maybe that has something to do with the muscle loss? But then again I've also had a fasting bs done that came back 90 (70-110) which still shows a normal sensitivity, and along with that I've had random blood sugars done that come back in the 70's and 80's, non-diabetic for sure.

Now I'm left wondering if I should keep throwing gasoline on this fire by staying on 200 mg of cyp a week, or move it down to 100 and see if any of this resolves itself. Any thoughts, comments? I've included pictures of when things were working and currently. I know this is TRT talk, but its more of a cruise with no blast IMO. I guess it'd also be nice to hear from those guys who do blast and cruise, and see how they feel.
thanks

[Chief N~]

200mg a week of test cyp! thats the good stuff, my man, your levels will definitely be over 1000 at all times.

Well, you definitely are not going to notice an increase in mass and muscle size if you decrease your test cyp dosage to 100. Compared to 200, of course.
You'd get bigger on 100mg a week and busting your ass in the gym compared to 200mg a week and not working out hard, ya know?

I'm not sure whats going on with your body, but it seems like its what you are doing on the gym. Can only guess, though. Good luck friend.

[Bonaparte]

It probably is just from myostatin and SHBG, which are the reasons for diminishing returns when using steroids (mostly the former).

[ilovelamp]

200mg a week of test cyp! thats the good stuff, my man, your levels will definitely be over 1000 at all times.

Well, you definitely are not going to notice an increase in mass and muscle size if you decrease your test cyp dosage to 100. Compared to 200, of course.
You'd get bigger on 100mg a week and busting your ass in the gym compared to 200mg a week and not working out hard, ya know?

I'm not sure whats going on with your body, but it seems like its what you are doing on the gym. Can only guess, though. Good luck friend.

That's what I was trying to establish though, and I guess its my fault for not making it clear. I'm busting my ass, eating right, and sleeping like a baby EXACTLY like I was when I got huge in the first place. None of it pays off now though..which is why I was wondering if it was something to do with my test levels being too high for too long. Currently its 1,700 ng/dL and a good free testosterone too.

These are the pictures of me before

[ilovelamp]

Me currently

[Chx beach 79]

That's what I was trying to establish though, and I guess its my fault for not making it clear. I'm busting my ass, eating right, and sleeping like a baby EXACTLY like I was when I got huge in the first place. None of it pays off now though..which is why I was wondering if it was something to do with my test levels being too high for too long. Currently its 1,700 ng/dL and a good free testosterone too.
<img src="http://forums.steroid .com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129136"/> <img src="http://forums.steroid.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129137"/> <img src="http://forums.steroid.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129140"/><img src="http://forums.steroid.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129141"/>
These are the pictures of me before

Dude! You look great!!! My doctor makes me cruise around 1,000 on my test... I thought that was good, but whatever you are doing is working! Keep it up!!!

[ilovelamp]

Dude! You look great!!! My doctor makes me cruise around 1,000 on my test... I thought that was good, but whatever you are doing is working! Keep it up!!!

You're probably looking at the before pictures lol. The current ones are weak as shit.

[warmouth]

The current one dont look bad. I think Bonapartes answer is spot on. Maybe you can get some advice from him on as to what to do. Honestly, to me, you look about the same size, maybe a little flabbier now, but not bad. The tan from the first pics also helps, as compared to now. Sometimes we all go through droughts and lose shape, get softer, etc, but it can usually be attributed(in my case) to lacking on my diet, missing workouts, bad sleep habits, and normal life circumstances that go unforeseen. I know I have lost alot of shape and muscle tone because I am not hitting the gym as much as I should or eating like I should. I am on TRT as well, but I really think it has something to do with you that you are missing. Even missing a meal a few times a week, missing a couple of workouts here and there, staying up late on the weekends and still gettting up early, can all play a factor in this situation. The size is still there, and I think alot of it is in your head (my case as well). It is the little things, the things that seem insignificant, that end up doing the most damage to us. Rethink your diet, cruise dose, workout routine, and sleep pattern and see if that makes a difference. Maybe lower your cruise for a couple of months to let your body have a break, then ramp it back up. Change up your workout routine. But seriously ask Bonaparte some questions onhow to go about fixing this. The man is a genius.

[ilovelamp]

The current one dont look bad. I think Bonapartes answer is spot on. Maybe you can get some advice from him on as to what to do. Honestly, to me, you look about the same size, maybe a little flabbier now, but not bad. The tan from the first pics also helps, as compared to now. Sometimes we all go through droughts and lose shape, get softer, etc, but it can usually be attributed(in my case) to lacking on my diet, missing workouts, bad sleep habits, and normal life circumstances that go unforeseen. I know I have lost alot of shape and muscle tone because I am not hitting the gym as much as I should or eating like I should. I am on TRT as well, but I really think it has something to do with you that you are missing. Even missing a meal a few times a week, missing a couple of workouts here and there, staying up late on the weekends and still gettting up early, can all play a factor in this situation. The size is still there, and I think alot of it is in your head (my case as well). It is the little things, the things that seem insignificant, that end up doing the most damage to us. Rethink your diet, cruise dose, workout routine, and sleep pattern and see if that makes a difference. Maybe lower your cruise for a couple of months to let your body have a break, then ramp it back up. Change up your workout routine. But seriously ask Bonaparte some questions onhow to go about fixing this. The man is a genius.

I know exactly what you're saying about the many variables that could account for what I've experienced. I've even considered cycling, but that would just complicate things currently. I feel if I'm not making gains where I'm at currently, its not time to throw in a cycle and waste the money. Do you honestly think 200 mgs a week is too high of a TRT dose? I've heard of guys doing 400 and its actually what's been prescribed lol. Either way, I'll look into it. Thanks for pointing me int he right direction.

[warmouth]

I know exactly what you're saying about the many variables that could account for what I've experienced. I've even considered cycling, but that would just complicate things currently. I feel if I'm not making gains where I'm at currently, its not time to throw in a cycle and waste the money. Do you honestly think 200 mgs a week is too high of a TRT dose? I've heard of guys doing 400 and its actually what's been prescribed lol. Either way, I'll look into it. Thanks for pointing me int he right direction.

200 mgs is on the high side, but only you and your doctor know the answer to that. Now if you are self prescribing TRT, then you might be on the high side. Also, at that dose, it is possible you will need to run an aromatase inhibitor. 200mgs is usually always prescribed with some type of inhibitor(in my research locally). I am 30 years old and use 100-125mgs weekly and am good to go as far as normality. I feel great. 400mgs being prescribed is ridiculous. I think that DR might have been on the "herb". That is a cycle dose. I use less than that on my first cycle a matter of fact.

[ilovelamp]

200 mgs is on the high side, but only you and your doctor know the answer to that. Now if you are self prescribing TRT, then you might be on the high side. Also, at that dose, it is possible you will need to run an aromatase inhibitor. 200mgs is usually always prescribed with some type of inhibitor(in my research locally). I am 30 years old and use 100-125mgs weekly and am good to go as far as normality. I feel great. 400mgs being prescribed is ridiculous. I think that DR might have been on the "herb". That is a cycle dose. I use less than that on my first cycle a matter of fact.

I've got some adex, no E2 issues really, just the difficulty putting on mass currently. And yeah, 400's a crazy dose lol

[ilovelamp]

I know a guy who's also on 200 mg but does a tren e cycle for two months annually and it gets him great results that he maintains. I guess its something to consider?

[ilovelamp]

**** **** ****ity ****, I think I know what's up.
My free T when I I first started Androgel was 289 for what I'm assuming was measured in pg/mL.
Recently my free T came back 32, for what I know for a fact was measured in pg/mL because it had a range 9.3-26.5 picogram/mL....SO HOLY SHIT!! I had that much more free T then, assuming that that 289 is pg/mL. If its ng/dL its a whole different story. Does anyone know of a lab that does free T in ng/dL??

[fit2bOld]

Body fat is higher for sure and why TRT at 24?

[bp2000]

myostain might have gone up. Try to come off test for a month maybe use some Clomid and then go back on.

[Sworder]

Welcome to the board. There are a lot of smart guys here but they don't really get into the androgen receptor discussions.

400mg is the max a doctor can prescribe legally. It is very easy to justify it too.

[MickeyKnox]

Welcome to the board. There are a lot of smart guys here but they don't really get into the androgen receptor discussions.

400mg is the max a doctor can prescribe legally. It is very easy to justify it too.

These same smart guys dont get into tren and hCG cycles either.

Agree with Bonaparte on the SHBG.

[Sworder]

These same smart guys dont get into tren and hCG cycles either.

Agree with Bonaparte on the SHBG.

EDIT: Lets not derail. Ok MickeyKnox.

[Sworder]

These same smart guys dont get into tren and hCG cycles either.

Agree with Bonaparte on the SHBG.

Bonaparte meant myostatin when he said former. His SHBG is fine and you should be able to tell by his post above.

[ilovelamp]

My free T when I I first started Androgel was 289 for what I'm assuming was measured in pg/mL.
Recently my free T came back 32, for what I know for a fact was measured in pg/mL because it had a range 9.3-26.5 picogram/mL....SO HOLY SHIT!! I had that much more free T then, assuming that that 289 is pg/mL. If its ng/dL its a whole different story. Does anyone know of a lab that does free T in ng/dL??

Does this have anything to do with any of this? It seems like the culprit to me.

[MickeyKnox]

EDIT: Lets not derail. Ok MickeyKnox.

I agree, my fault. I couldn't resist. My apologies.

[ilovelamp]

Could it be that the free T is so different now?

[Sworder]

Post all the bloodwork please.

[ilovelamp]

Two years ago:
Total T- 1,400
Free T 289 pg/mL or ng/dL not sure *yet. I called the lab to verify
SHBG: 44

Currently:
Total T: 1,700
Free T: 32 range 9.6-26.3

If that is the case, there is a HUUUUGE difference in free T earlier.

[Sworder]

I don't know if anybody mentioned it on the other forum but has the thought crossed your mind that MAYBE you are playing with your hormones too much and the "staying too high for too long" may have interfered with your cortisol. The reason why people get off a cycle is to restore stasis. Normal guys don't run in the 1700 range. I would lower your TRT to 100 before your next cycle. Your testosterone is skyhigh, SHBG is fine as well. AR receptor downregulation nope, desensitization no, BUT as I have told you before. The body will build a tolerance of sorts. This can manifest in many different ways, I think your cortisol is too high or something to that effect. Come down to 100mg/week.

Why do you keep mentioning your free T? Who cares about free t when your tT is skyhigh.

[ilovelamp]

I don't know if anybody mentioned it on the other forum but has the thought crossed your mind that MAYBE you are playing with your hormones too much and the "staying too high for too long" may have interfered with your cortisol. The reason why people get off a cycle is to restore stasis. Normal guys don't run in the 1700 range. I would lower your TRT to 100 before your next cycle. Your testosterone is skyhigh, SHBG is fine as well. AR receptor downregulation nope, desensitization no, BUT as I have told you before. The body will build a tolerance of sorts. This can manifest in many different ways, I think your cortisol is too high or something to that effect. Come down to 100mg/week.

Why do you keep mentioning your free T? Who cares about free t when your tT is skyhigh.

Sworder you're a ****ing genius!!!! That made more sense than anything I've ever heard. You're suggesting I lower the dose to 100 for a duration of..say 4 months or so? And then blast for about maybe two months and then lower to 100 again and repeat possibly?

Not to disagree or anything, but what exactly are tolerances of other sorts? Also, don't the pros stay on grams of test year round and still do fine? Just curious. There is also a decent amount of guys on 200 mg of T a week, but they don't complain of diminished returns. Is it just different with everyone?

[Sworder]

4 months should be good. Other examples of tolerance that are known is myostatin as mentioned. I can't speak of what cycles Jay Cutler does but I know a childhood friend that is a bodybuilder in Sweden. He runs 8weeks on 2 weeks completely off, also consumes 11k calories/day during bulk. It's going to be very individual as well.

[ilovelamp]

4 months should be good. Other examples of tolerance that are known is myostatin as mentioned. I can't speak of what cycles Jay Cutler does but I know a childhood friend that is a bodybuilder in Sweden. He runs 8weeks on 2 weeks completely off, also consumes 11k calories/day during bulk. It's going to be very individual as well.

Out of curiosity, you did see the significant differences between the current pics and the ones two years ago, right? Its painfully obvious that something in my body chemistry is far different than it was then, but then again so much is different now. I am determined that the differences are not lifestyle related, but here's my little comparison.

Tell me what you think, Sworder.
Then:
-I had low T for two years and was pretty small to begin with, of course the changes were going to come faster and be perceived as far more noticable. Its like if someone weighs 150 before their first cycle, and 170 after. Their second cycle may only result in about 5-10 lbs more in gains because they are approaching their genetic limit, and that's where myostatin kicks in.

In Between (One year ago):
- I was still very muscular by most people's standards, but I noticed my tone was lost and I felt puffier. This was the beginning of the end..lol. I think that as the gel stopped absorbing my SHBG slowly creeped up and rendered my T useless while E2 ran wild.

Now: Your average male has a testosterone level between 300 and 1,000, and most can make gains and look good naturally. Although it is nice to step into the supraphysiologic realm to obtain mass and look better than you could naturally, and it does work (for awhile) it isn't meant to last. Like you said, over time the body stops responding..through mechanisms entirely misunderstood by a lot of us.

There are people who do blasts and cruises, but I think their cruise is a reasonable TRT dose so that may be why it works for them. If you happen to know, how much T does your friend run both during his 8 week blast? And if 2 weeks of nothing works for him, shouldn't that be all it takes for me?..or have I done too much damage?

[human project]

It probably is just from myostatin and SHBG, which are the reasons for diminishing returns when using steroids (mostly the former).

What can be done for this?

[ilovelamp]

What can be done for this?

Not much lol. Return to normal physiologic levels and wait.

[Sworder]

Sounds about right. There are a lot of things going on that are not understood, when you reach a certain level of androgens you get the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy effect(read fuller muscles).

To be quite honest I don't know how the hell he does it. I have tried but the gains won't come unless you reset. On my last cycle I hit 209 then I felt that my gains were slowing down, so I upped my tren from 500 to 800mg/week and nothing happened. You are going to reach that plateau when gains just stop and that's when you need to reset. It won't matter how much gear you run your body will just stop. I don't think you did your reset that is why you can't grow right now, go down to 100mg/week or if you have the willpower stop the TRT for a month to ensure a reset.

He runs about 2-3grams of androgens, slin, hGH and peptides. On the 2 weeks off only hCG or nothing at all.

I think that most of us can agree that 600mg Tren is a lot but the truth is, if you would run that for a year would won't continually grow. How/why can the pros do it? I don't know. We need to come off and reset, its that simple.

[ilovelamp]

Sounds about right. There are a lot of things going on that are not understood, when you reach a certain level of androgens you get the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy effect(read fuller muscles).

To be quite honest I don't know how the hell he does it. I have tried but the gains won't come unless you reset. On my last cycle I hit 209 then I felt that my gains were slowing down, so I upped my tren from 500 to 800mg/week and nothing happened. You are going to reach that plateau when gains just stop and that's when you need to reset. It won't matter how much gear you run your body will just stop. I don't think you did your reset that is why you can't grow right now, go down to 100mg/week or if you have the willpower stop the TRT for a month to ensure a reset.

He runs about 2-3grams of androgens, slin, hGH and peptides. On the 2 weeks off only hCG or nothing at all.

I think that most of us can agree that 600mg Tren is a lot but the truth is, if you would run that for a year would won't continually grow. How/why can the pros do it? I don't know. We need to come off and reset, its that simple.

You're talking strictly for steroid or steroid like doses, correct? Normal TRT does not put guys near 2,000 like me, correct? We can agree that I've been on too much for too long, and that it messed with my body chemistry among other things. What about when you reach that plateau and the gains disappear? I hear a lot about guys with gains slowing, but rarely do you hear guys tell stories about all their hard work deteriorating. All I'm scared of is lowering to 100, losing what little gains I still have, and being in the same boat as I am now because it wasn't the problem. I know its foolish, and I'm probably just being paranoid..but I really need to get to the bottom of this. Maybe after taking some time off I do a quick blast with tren and T and then return to cruise to see how dramatically it effects me. Do you think 2 months on 100 mg will be enough time? If your friend gets away with 2 weeks, I'm sure 2 months would help somewhat.

[Sworder]

Yes, steroid like doses.

Your gains probably disappeared as a result of cortisol increasing from being too high for too long or something to that effect. There are so many unknowns. Don't worry too much about losing gains, they will be returned after a cycle or two. The "muscle memory" which generally is a mystery exists and will help you come back to where you were two years ago provided your stress hormones come down. Gains come and go, they are easily obtained with the right training and diet. You seem to be in this for the long run so be patient.

He can get away with 2 weeks, I can't. Everybody is different, hopefully your body will return to normal after 2 months. Hit it with tren and test for a quick cycle and if you will not grow I would drop the TRT for a couple months because you aren't "reset" at that point.

[ilovelamp]

Yes, steroid like doses.

Your gains probably disappeared as a result of cortisol increasing from being too high for too long or something to that effect. There are so many unknowns. Don't worry too much about losing gains, they will be returned after a cycle or two. The "muscle memory" which generally is a mystery exists and will help you come back to where you were two years ago provided your stress hormones come down. Gains come and go, they are easily obtained with the right training and diet. You seem to be in this for the long run so be patient.

He can get away with 2 weeks, I can't. Everybody is different, hopefully your body will return to normal after 2 months. Hit it with tren and test for a quick cycle and if you will not grow I would drop the TRT for a couple months because you aren't "reset" at that point.

Would it be a decent idea if I went and got an AM cortisol done to see where that's at?
Are there studies that support steroid like doses of T effecting cortisol?

[Sworder]

I thought this was interesting:

INTERACTIONS OF CORTISOL, TESTOSTERONE , AND RESISTANCE TRAINING: INFLUENCE OF CIRCADIAN RHYTHMS
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...20521003778773

Optimal adaptations to resistance training (muscle hypertrophy and strength increases) also seem to occur in the late afternoon, which is interesting, since cortisol and, particularly, testosterone (T) concentrations are higher in the morning. T has repeatedly been linked with resistance training adaptation, and higher concentrations appear preferential. This has been determined by suppression of endogenous production and exogenous supplementation. However, the cortisol (C)/T ratio may indicate the catabolic/anabolic environment of an organism due to their roles in protein degradation and protein synthesis, respectively. The morning elevated T level (seen as beneficial to achieve muscle hypertrophy) may be counteracted by the morning elevated C level and, therefore, protein degradation. Although T levels are higher in the morning, an increased resistance exercise–induced T response has been found in the late afternoon, suggesting greater responsiveness of the hypothalamo-pituitary-testicular axis then. Individual responsiveness has also been observed, with some participants experiencing greater hypertrophy and strength increases in response to strength protocols, whereas others respond preferentially to power,

[kelkel]

Agree with Sworder that you need complete BW done to include a full thyroid panel as well. Your aforementioned TSH and T4 levels being checked is really not sufficient. TSH is a weak indicator and T4 just being in the range doesn't tell us anything. Thyroid is far more than those two elements. There could be sub-clinical indications that are easily missed if your doc is not astute. You also need to relax a bit and let your body adjust to a normal TRT protocol for a while.

Good article on cortisol below. Remember cortisol and test are related basically. As your cortisol goes up your T will go down. DHEA will help balance your cortisol.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2011/...ortisol_02.htm

If you do BW get all the obvious done and be sure to include dhea-s, pregnenolone, vit D 25 hydroxy

Good imput from Sworder.

kel

[ilovelamp]

Isn't that just supporting the widely accepted idea that C breaks down and T builds up. Too much C and muscle is lost. This doesn't show any correlation between high levels of T leading to high levels of C though.

[kelkel]

Your body is searching for homeostasis. T and C are not the only two that play together. High levels of circulating cortisol will reduce T as stated. But keep in mind what your injecting. It's not going to crush it. Everyones metabolism is not the exact same in function. Still think good BW is your ticket here.

[Sworder]

Kelkel is on point. I don't know what other factors come into play(and if they are measurable) when your body is trying to reach stasis by upping cortisol and you supply exogenous testosterone . You are working against your own body by doing that, and I don't think it will yield favorable results with your body composition.

[ilovelamp]

Your body is searching for homeostasis. T and C are not the only two that play together. High levels of circulating cortisol will reduce T as stated. But keep in mind what your injecting. It's not going to crush it. Everyones metabolism is not the exact same in function. Still think good BW is your ticket here.

Most recent labs (All within 2 months)

Free T4 0.91 0.75 - 1.76 ng/dL

TSH 2.35 0.35 - 5.50 mIU/mL

Testosterone 1351 ng/dL (This was at the end of a week, so a trough level)

Testosterone,Free 32.1 Not Estab. pg/mL

Sodium 139 (136 - 145) mmol/L

Potassium 4.3 3.6 - 5.2 mmol/L

Chloride 103 96 - 108 mmol/L

BUN 20 8 - 21 mg/dL

Creatinine 1.1 0.4 - 1.3 mg/dL

Glucose Result 92 70 - 110 mg/dL

Calcium 9.4 8.4 - 10.6 mg/dL

EGFR 91.7 ml/min/1.73m^2
Hours Fasting Hours
Fasting Status
Anion Gap mmol/L


These were done a year ago, right when I started noticing the problems:

Glucose Result 77 70 - 110 mg/dL
Calcium 10.2 8.4 - 10.6 mg/dL
BUN 26 8 - 21 mg/dL
Creatinine 1.1 0.4 - 1.3 mg/dL
EGFR >60 ml/min/1.73ms2
Normal Range: >60ml/min/1.73m^2
For African Americans, multiply the eGFR by 1.21.
Sodium 141 136 - 145 mmol/L
Potassium 5.0 3.6 - 5.2 mmol/L

Chloride 106 99 - 114 mmol/L

CO2 26 23 - 33 mmol/L

Total Protein 6.5 6.4 - 8.2 g/dL

Albumin (BCG) 4.8 3.7 - 4.9 g/dL

Alkaline Phosphatase 183 32 - 122 u/l

Bilirubin, Total 0.5 0.2 - 1.2 mg/dL

Bilirubin, Direct .20 .00 - .40 mg/dL

ALT 16 0 - 55 u/l

AST 24 12 - 42 u/l

Testosterone: 1,743 ng/dL

Do you feel that dropping the dose for awhile will allow my body to regain homeostasis?