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12-31-2012, 10:43 PM #1
How do you take Delta Sleep Inducing Peptide??
Any one knows the doses? Also can I just use for distilled water??
Last edited by anahny; 12-31-2012 at 11:58 PM.
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12-31-2012, 11:29 PM #2
that stuff sounds interesting!
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01-01-2013, 02:01 AM #3Productive Member
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Use bacteriostatic water, not distilled. I am unsure of the dosing, but I have been looking into it a bit as well.
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01-01-2013, 02:13 PM #4
Learn something new every day. this is from Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_s...ducing_peptide
Function
Many roles for DSIP have been suggested following research carried out using peptide analogues with a greater molecular stability [13] and through measuring DSIP-like immunological (DSIP-LI) response by injecting DSIP antiserum and antibodies.[14]
[edit] Roles in endocrine regulation
Decreases basal corticotropin level and blocks its release.[8]
Stimulates release of luteinizing hormone (LH).[15]
Stimulates release of somatoliberin and somatotrophin secretion and inhibits somatostatin secretion.[16]
[edit] Roles in physiological processes
Can act as a stress limiting factor.[17][18][19]
May have a direct or indirect effect on body temperature and alleviating hypothermia.[20][21][22]
Can normalize blood pressure and myocardial contraction.[8][23]
It has been shown to enhance the efficiency of oxidative phosphorylation in rat mitochondria in vitro, suggesting it may have antioxidant effects.[19]
There is also conflicting evidence as to its involvement in sleep patterns. Some studies suggest a link between DSIP and slow-wave sleep (SWS) promotion[24][25] and suppression of paradoxical sleep, (PS)[26][27] while some studies show no correlation.[28] Stronger effects on sleep have been noted for the synthesized analogues of DSIP.[29]
It may have an impact on human lens epithelial cell function via the MAPK pathway, which is involved in cell proliferation, differentiation, motility, survival, and apoptosis.[12]
[edit] Roles in Disease and Medicine
It has been found to have anticarcinogenic properties. In a study on mice, injecting a preparation of DSIP over the mice's lifetime decreased total spontaneous tumor incidence 2.6-fold.[30]
The same study found it to also have geroprotective effects: it slowed down the age-related switching-off of oestrous function; it decreased by 22.6% the frequency of chromosome aberrations in bone marrow cells and it increased by 24.1% maximum life span in comparison with the control group.
Levels of DSIP may be significant in patients diagnosed with major depressive disorder (MDD). In several studies, levels of DSIP in the plasma and cerebrospinal fluid are significantly deviated from the norm in patients with MDD, though there are contradictions as to whether levels are higher or lower than healthy control patients.[10][31][32]
Studies have demonstrated a direct link between GILZ expression (homologous to DSIP) and adipogenesis which has links to obesity and metabolic syndrome.[33]
In studies on rats with metaphit-induced epilepsy DSIP acted as an anticonvulsant, significantly decreasing the incidence and duration of fits suggesting DSIP as a potential treatment for epilepsy.[34][35]
DSIP has been found to have an analgesic effect. In studies on mice it was found to have a potent antinociceptive effect when administered intracerebroventricularly or intracisternally (see: Route of administration).[36]
Due to its possible effects on sleep and nociception, trials have been carried out to determine whether DSIP can be used as an anaesthetic. One such study found that administration of DSIP to humans as an adjunct to isoflurane anaesthesia actually increased the heart rate and reduced the depth of anaesthesia instead of deepening it as expected.[37]
Low plasma concentrations of DSIP have been found in patients with Cushing's syndrome.[38]
In Alzheimer's patients levels of DSIP have been found to be slightly elevated, though this is unlikely to be causal.[39]
A preparation of DSIP, Deltaran, has been used to correct central nervous system function in children after antiblastomic therapy. Ten children aged 3–16 years were given a ten-day course of Deltaran and their bioelectric activity recorded. It was found that the chemotherapy-induced impairment in the bioelectrical activity of 9 out of the 10 children was reduced by administration of DSIP.[40]
DSIP can act antagonistically on opiate receptors to significantly inhibit the development of opioid and alcohol dependence and is currently being used in clinical trials to treat withdrawal syndrome.[41][42] In one such trial it was reported that in 97% of opiate-dependent and 87% of alcohol-dependent patients the symptoms were alleviated by DSIP administration.[43]
In some studies administration of DSIP has alleviated narcolepsy and normalized disturbed sleeping patterns.[44][45]
Safety and possible side-effects of long-term DSIP use hasn't been established in clinical research studies.
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01-02-2013, 01:33 AM #5Banned
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didnt do much for me...........
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01-02-2013, 06:49 AM #6
I like you, your a good Ginnie pig. Saves the rest of us a lot of trouble. Seems every other peptide makes some great claim to fame but most dont do anything for anyone. I have tried quite a few for different things and never been impressed or almost never. So far I am with the TB-500
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03-25-2013, 11:29 AM #7
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I could not agree more as to the positive benifits of TB-500 / Beta - 4000 ! Great stuff for tissue repair and for recovery after w/o ! I have seen more benifits from TB-500 in 3 mths than I have from a very good and reptuatable Orthopedic Surgon in 8 years but then he does not want to use TB -500 he want to do surgery and I would not do that the TB-500 has repaired my rotator cuff and eased a lot of other of the many issiues in my mangled body . . . lol
I also found a Positive use for PT-141 at a 2 mg dose 3 hrs before w/o for energy and positive state of mind during w/o - 2 mg did not cause increase in libido . . . . lol ! 2 other members have tried it and they said they felt the same results from the PT-141
I have been reading a lot on DELTA and the thing that has caused me to hold off is that in several different write ups it is stated as an IV injection I am kewl with IM and SubQ but no self injected IV peptide please share your knowledge on this TR ? or anyone else with knowledge on this pep ?Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 03-25-2013 at 12:02 PM.
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03-25-2013, 03:45 PM #8
Didn't do anything for me. But neither does 2 Benedryl.
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03-26-2013, 11:08 AM #9
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Bump question:
Many Articles state this is an IV injected peptide
Does nayone have any info as to SubQ or IM being an opition
All I have read state IV ?
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03-26-2013, 11:38 AM #10
IV injections would make me nervous.
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03-26-2013, 11:51 AM #11
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Yea that is the only reason my lab rat has not tried it is he told me never ever IV anything even the write ups from Europe state only to be used uder direct supervisio of Dr. or qualified medicial personel just for the IV reason it is also used to prevent withdrawals fro opioates (pain meds ) so if I could get a green light from somebody like TR I would be all over this stuff because it does have many clains backed up by actual European Dr's I would buy a 60 day supply and stop the pain meds and build a sleep routine at the same time which opiates screw up your sleep also !
I cn't think of one think they are good for other than pain relief and there are sooooo many sides but I have tried all the Cymbalta, Lyricia, Celebrex, Meloxicam, and the only thing that has helped my pain is the TB-500 and IMO that is because it assisted in repair of the issue that was causing the pain !
Other Peptide lay claim to rebuilding cartlidge they are just so high priced ? I am still going to try them before I have a knee replacementLast edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 03-26-2013 at 11:55 AM.
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03-26-2013, 09:50 PM #12new member
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I took it for a week and it didn't help me sleep at all.
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03-26-2013, 10:08 PM #13
Thanks for the info. I was seriously considering trying it out.
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03-27-2013, 12:04 AM #14
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03-27-2013, 01:56 PM #15
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Originally Posted by lovbyts;646***7
I research and cross research and just like now I want to do the DELTA /DISP but I will not inject just for the sake of poking a needle in me ! I poke a lot of shit now but I am confident in what the risk are as opposed to the rewards ! ! ! ! ! !
With the pervios logic of some of the posters on this peptide I should go shoot a ball of Meth IV and then I would burn calories and have a lot of energy for my next work/out ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
WHOA NOBODY WOULD FEEL ANY EFFECTS BECAUSE THESE PEPTIDES ARE FOR RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY AND NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION SO THAT IS WHY THEY FELT NOTHING ; MY BAD !
WTFLast edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 04-09-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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03-27-2013, 03:33 PM #16
I have been contemplating trying this peptide out for the sleep. I have done a little bit of preliminary research and found that there are many users who have used it subcutaneously without any problems, even though the clinical studies conducted have administered it IV. Let me tell you this - you don't NEED to do it IV just because it was done that way in the study. Yes, there are differences but once the peptide is in your system, it is in your system and it will do its job with the only major difference being how fast it will begin to work. There are many studies that have been done on things that were administered IV during the study, and when administered orally or IM by the end users in uncontrolled environments, the end results were more or less the same.
I'm very curious about this peptide though, but with the majority of posters in this thread saying that it didn't work for them, I am not going to decide to try just yet. I'd like to know how reputable the quality of the source was that these individuals here used, and how they used DSIP before I decide.
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03-27-2013, 08:29 PM #17
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I donot disagree with what you are saying but I am new to the Peptide research and can you explain how if all the Medicial studies I read were from DR. (I most of all over most ppl know that the Dr. doesn't mean shit Due to the Dr. I have now!) Why did they not offer their results of IV (ONLY) results show in my research on Internet : vs SubQ vs IM and the different time frame and what to expect different I am just asking you to explain why you say what you do and then I would have to assume the dosage would change . . . . . how to figure this and what is the time frame for it to start to work the studies to state the the pep builds up in your body to give desired effect and it is not even close to a anastetic; it works almost the opposite of an aanestic. Soo what dosage would you pin and when should you expect to see results according to what you stated as once you reach saturation point what would be the dosage then ? Assuming that you are getting what you paid for how and when would you dose and when would you drop back to lower dose of maintaince ?
My research supplier has A-1 Quality products ! Not the lowest price but not the highest I am trying other suppliers to do Quality control Quality and purity are priceless IMO !
MT-II
HGH 5000 iu's - my prefrence
HGH Frag 176-191 no he only carries ADO 9604
Cialis
his Liquidex did not work but my E2 was 66 and I only took .25 mg EOD Sooooo could be my dose I took was to low
TB-500 not sure if he stocks it on line yet but he sells it to me seems to be as good and the company TR uses this stuss is not cheap any where and Quality is # -1 and biggest concern !
PT - 141 is great
B12 put me off the charts @ 1 mL a week
GHRP @ I bought all he had left and he gave me 5 free vials
Includes 1 vial of 10 mL steril water with purchase of 3 vials or more and free bottle of anything with $300.00 purchase
I would trust him with DELTA or DISP . . . . . . JUST NOT SURE ON INJECTION METHOD !Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 04-09-2013 at 12:16 PM.
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04-04-2013, 06:22 PM #18
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Bump I have still been Internet searching and I read where some people in 09 were doing SuQ but like some of our threads no facts to back up claims and it has been around since what 1977 why no more info when it is also benificial in treatment of withdrawals on alcholics and opiat dependants ?
No disrespect but I need more than one man telling me oh just do SubQ it will work sooner or later ? No facts to back this statement up !
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04-09-2013, 11:21 AM #19
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Note This is an update but up to now I have not found a dosage for SubQ Injections . This is research on a cat and shows positive results desired but at what dose ?
The effect of subcutaneous administration of delta sleep-inducing peptide (DSIP) on some parameters of sleep in the cat
Susić V ? I have no idea what this means ?
.
Source Department of Physiology, School of Medicine, Beograd, Yugoslavia.
Abstract
Delta sleep inducing peptide (DSIP) significantly increases deep-slow-wave sleep (DSWS) of cats after subcutaneous (SC) injection. Cats (n = 8) were SC injected with DSIP (120 nmol.kg-1) What dosage would this be if the cat weighted 200 + lbs ? prior to polygraphic recording of EEG combined with electro-oculography, EOG) and electromyography (EMG) for 8 hours. DSIP was found to significantly increase slow-waves (delta sleep) in the sleep EEG. There was a tendency to reduced waking time and a prolongation of slow wave sleep time, and a shortening of sleep onset and REM sleep latencies but the differences from control (Ringer injection) were not statistically significant. There was no change in the amount of REM sleep. These findings support the belief that DSIP can increase sleep wave activity when administered by peripheral route.
(120 nmol.kg-1) - This is the dosage used on 8 cats in a labratory. Estimated weight average would be 35 lbs (may vary) Does anyone care to convert this to a 200 lb cat. 225 lb cat. 250 lb cat ?
Refrence:
peripheral route - as refered to in this article is refrencing IV Injections.
Refrence:
Ringer's injection - a sterile solution of sodium chloride, potassium chloride, and calcium chloride in water for injection, used as a fluid and electrolyte. replenisher.Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 04-09-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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04-09-2013, 11:35 AM #20
I posted my dosage in this thread http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...p#.UWRQtsjLeEB
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04-09-2013, 01:14 PM #21
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All of the many benifits of DISP per and indeepth German study
[0059]Listed below are main fields of use of the present invention together with clinical examples of the use of the agent for the correction of neurotransmitter, neuroendocrinal and metabolic disorders occurring due to various stress factors.
[0060]1. Efficacy of use with respect to diseases/conditions caused by emotional, physical, psychological or pathophysiological stress factors:
[0061]1.1 The preparation is effective in the case of emotional and mental stress, i.e. during exam or test preparation. Intranasal administration at a dose of at least 0.3 mg at least two times per day for at least 2 days to adults (to children depending on age: 1-2 ampoules per day for 10 days) significantly increases the capability for learning large amounts of information and reduces the time needed for material repetition during exam preparation and analogous situations. In the case of rest necessity at least a single application of the preparation provides a satisfactory feeling of rest and recreation.
[0062]1.2 The preparation is effective in the case of significant emotional and physical stress, i.e. during long-distance passages and long-distance flights, in the case of frequent changes of time zones and in the case of frequent changes of the communication language. Intranasal (sublingual) administration in a dose of at least 0.3 mg one-two times per day allows easy/painless overcoming of emotional and physical stress associated with traveling.
[0063]1.3 The preparation is effective in the case of significant psychological and physical stress, i.e. sport competitions on a professional and/or amateur level and intensive training. Intranasal administration in a dose of at least 0.3 mg one time per day for at least 5 days with repeating courses allows tolerating intensive physical stress without psychological breakdowns.
[0064]1.4 When using the preparation to prevent and to reduce manifestations of acute stress conditions and symptoms of exhausting stress overstrain in a dose of at least 0.3 mg daily in case of a borderline neuropsychic pathology an overcoming of insomnia, a reduction of time for testing tasks completion and an increase of resistance and of the long-term attention stability occur.
[0065]1.5 The use of the preparation in extreme conditions of military operations led to a massive reduction of complications of neuropsychic character and also to an acceleration of the processes of wound healing and rehabilitation including those after firearm wounds and fractures. At intranasal administration of at least one ampoule of the preparation per day in conditions of exposure to extreme factors no evidence of insufficiency of vegetative neural systemlike tachycardia development, elevation of systolic and/or diastolic pressure has been found. Moreover, a decrease of anxiety and psychic tension, headache, dizziness and tympanophonia has been observed.
[0066]1.6 The preparation is effective under exposure to pathophysiological stress factors, i.e. for reducing the withdrawal syndrome in therapy of opioid addiction. Intravenous administration in a dose of at least 0.3 mg at least 4 times per day for at least 3 days led in 97% of the cases to a rapid disappearance of clinical manifestations of withdrawal symptoms. Intranasal administration in a dose of at least 0.3 mg per day for at least 3 days provides significant influence on somato-vegetative symptoms and is effective in complex treatment of opioid withdrawal syndrome.
[0067]1.7 The use of the preparation is highly effective in the case of long-term stress disorders as to correct neurotic disorders, including reduction of neurotic manifestations in case of neurasthenia with anxious-phobic disorders, alcoholism and opioid addiction without simultaneous use of other drugs. The course dose is at least 60 mg (6 mg per day for 10 days).
[0068]1.8 As to reducing ethanol addiction and the withdrawal syndrome of associated forms of alcoholism. Administration in a dose of at least 3 mg/day resulted in 72% of the cases in a reduction of vegeto-asthenic disorders compared to the control group and in a significant sleep improvement. In a further course of treatment the preparation demonstrated a significant influence on primary alcoholic attraction. The time of remission in patients receiving Deltaran far exceeded the control group: maximum time was 18 month and 1 month, respectively. It is particular importance that in the case of a failure the narcotic intake was not accompanied by common euphoria occurrence that can be considered as restoration of normal sensitivity of opioid receptors in patients receiving Deltaran.
[0069]1.9 Course administration of the preparation leads to an increase of potency in case of functional disorders of sexual activity. Long-term use of small doses of the drug (at least 3 mg per day for at least 2 weeks, repeated at least 2 times a year) allows durable preserving the sexual activity in particular of elderly people and under conditions of chronic stress.
[0070]2. Use of the drug with respect to different manifestations of the metabolic syndrome is effective in case of repeated course administration each of at least 5 days.
[0071]2.1 Use of the preparation in the case of the cardiovascular system pathology. The drug provides a stabilizing action on the contractile myocardial function and on the electrical activity. Intranasal administration of at least 1-2 ampoules for at least 7 days to patients with a severe progressing course of ischemic heart disease against a background of hypertonic disease of grade II-III led to a stabilization of the condition, to the termination of heard strokes and to the termination of extra systoles and ECG-signs of transient myocardial ischemia. Course administration of the drug resulted in easy tolerance of coronary angiographic procedures and led to the possibility of reducing the dose of long-term administered preparations. A drug monotherapy in elderly patients with ischemic heart disease (older than 70 years) led to a significant reduction of complaints associated with multiorgan pathology and metabolic syndrome, and thus to an increase in life quality of the patients. Intranasal course administration of the drug during at least the first 5-10 days of each month increases the resistance of elderly patients to the physical and emotional stress, reduces meteosensitivity and the need for coardiotropic drugs.
[0072]2.2 Efficacy of ambulant use of the preparation in the therapy of elderly patients with diabetes mellitus of type II. Intranasal course administration of the drug in a dose of at least 3 mg per day for 20 days led to a subjective improvement of life quality (improvement of short-term memory, reduction of depression, anxiety, hidrosis, and also hunger tolerance). A significant reduction of the intensity of diabetic neuropathy manifested itself in an increase of the vibration sensitivity level, in the disappearance of convulsions, paresthesias and numbness of lower extremities. The majority of patients showed a decrease of systolic and diastolic pressure and also an improvement of the glycemic profile values. The drug shows a normalizing effect on age-associated hormonal-metabolic processes and is a valuable additive to sugar-decreasing therapy in patients with a geriatric profile.
[0073]2.3 The use of the drug is safe and effective in middle aged patients suffering from diabetes mellitus type II of a moderate severity. A course of treatment of at least 3 mg per day two times per day during first six days, then 3 mg once per day in the morning for at least 8 days after achieving satisfactory compensation of diabetes mellitus leads to an increase in the portion of patients with a good compensation of diabetes mellitus A significant reduction of daily glucosuria has been observed. The therapy provides a positive effect on arterial pressure, on the carbohydrate metabolism and on the functions of the vegetative nervous system.
[0074]2.4 The use of the drug is effective to reduce neurocirculatory dystonia and discirculatory encephalopathy of atherosclerotic genesis in case of degradation of the memory and of mental working capacity. In these kinds of pathology a regular application of a course of treatment is necessary of at least 3 mg per day during first 5-10 days of each month, and subsequently a similar treatment course every three months and thereafter every 6 months, but not less frequently. Such treatment courses of discirculatory encephalopathy of atherosclerotic genesis lead to a reduction of insomnic and cephalgic syndromes, of dyspraxia, vestibular, ataxic and cochlear disorders, as well as to a definite improvement of the function of optico-dimensional gnosis and of the audio-verbal memory, which generally leads to an increase of life quality of said category of patients.
[0075]2.5 In the case of incorporation of the drug into a therapy of vegetative vascular dystonia, an improvement of sleep quality is achieved as well as a reduction of encephalic syndrome, a significant decrease in frequency of migraine attacks, a decrease of anxiety, irritability and mood fluctuations. During treatment a significant decrease in frequency of vegetal crises and their intensity in 30% of patients occurs and a termination of crises occurs in 70% of patients. The duration of the treatment effect is preserved during monotherapy with at least 3 mg/day for at least 10 days, a subsequent two-week interruption and repeated course of treatment for 3-5 months.
[0076]2.6 In the case of incorporation of the drug into a therapy of patients suffering from migraine, a change of the vegetative index is observed that is shifted towards the zero value, thus achieving vegetative balance. An adaptation to physical stress occurs. During the first half of the year after the conduction of drug therapy with a dose of at least 3 mg/day for at least 7 days the frequency, the extent and the duration of migraine attacks decrease significantly.
[0077]2.7 The use of the drug in patients with moderate and severe bronchial asthma by at least 6 mg per day for five days, then 3 mg per day (in the evening) for 20 days leads to a significant reduction of the need for use of beta-agonists in patients by way of reducing bronchial obstruction. The drug potentiates the action of short-term acting beta-agonists and allows a significant reduction of their maintaining doses. The use of the drug reduces the variation of daily average values of peak expiratory rate, thus improving the controllability bronchial asthma.
[0078]2.8 Pharmacological efficacy of the drug was proven with respect to acute pancreatitis. An intranasal or intravenous administration of the drug in a dose of at least 6 mg per day for 5 days leads to a significantly decrease of the content of non-peptide components of medium weight molecules that play a considerable role in the development of endotoxicosis.
[0079]3. Use of the preparation with respect to pathological conditions caused by different infectious and/or autoimmune agents.
[0080]3.1 The use of the preparation in neuroborreliosis. Intranasal administration in the course dose of at least 6 mg/day for 5 days and subsequently of 3 mg per day (in the evening) for 20 days (60 mg, 20 ampoules) leads to the disappearance of complaints regarding irritability, sweating, headache and sleep disturbance. One month after the start of the therapy a positive dynamics of neurological symptoms is obtained in 70% of the patients. Immunological evidence of the absence of destructive processes in neural tissue is achieved 3-6 months after starting the therapy using the drug.
[0081]3.2 Use in multiple sclerosis. Incorporation of the drug into a complex therapy of multiple sclerosis in a dose of at least 6 mg per day for 5 days with a subsequent administration of 3 mg per day (at the evening) for 20 days led to a significant reduction of vegetative dystonia and intellectual-mental disorders. The intensity of the positive drug effect is directly proportional to the level of irregularity of sleep structure and of psychoemotional condition. a positive dynamics in the emotional sphere was achieved in 75.6% of the patients and a reduction of the syndromes of vegetative and neurocirculatory dystonia of the hypotonic type was achieved in 83.3% of the patients by the use of the drug for 10 days.
[0082]3.3 Use in autoimmune thyrioiditis. Intranasal administration in the dose of at least 3 mg for at least 10 days led to a decrease in the thyroid tissue antibody concentration. Furthermore, a trend to normalization of thyroid hormone levels was observed.
[0083]4. Incorporation of the drug into the course of treatment of patients with infantile cerebral paralysis (such spastic forms like spastic diplegia, hemiparetic form, atonic-astatic form, consequences of cranio-cerebral trauma) led to a reduction of muscular tonicity, to an expansion of range of motions and to an increase of muscular strength. A positive effect was achieved when the drug was administered intranasally in a dose of at least 0.3 mg for at least five days.
[0084]4.1. In the case of incorporation of the drug into a complex program of rehabilitation of children with minimal brain dysfunction and with functional and organic abnormalities of the central nervous system function in a dose of at least 3 mg for at least 10 days led to an improvement of intellectual-mnestic functions, an improvement of psycho-emotional condition and to an improvement of sleep. Definite reorganization of neurodynamics and bioelectrical brain activity is achieved. A normalizing effect on the values of alpha-activity indicates an improvement of the interaction of inter-structural and inter-centre relationships in the damaged brain. The drug provides positive treatment effects in the case of its incorporation into the products for children's nutrition.
[0085]4.2. In the case of clinical manifestations of perinatal pathology of newborn children (abundant regurgitation within one hour and more after feeding, head-tilt in sleep, increased pulsation of anterior fontanel, muscular hypotonicity or hypertonicity, superficial sleep, day and night confusion) 5-10 ampoules of the drug are intranasally administered to the mother in the case of breast-feeding. Intranasal administration of a dose of at least 3 mg for 5-10 days (bottle-fed children were administered from 1/2 ampoule (1.5 mg) intranasally for at least 10-14 days) led to a significant positive dynamics. Repeated conduction of course therapy significantly improved values of physical, psychic and emotional development of the children.
[0086]4.3. In the case of incorporation of the drug into a therapy of patients suffering from symptomatic and idiopathic epilepsy a decrease in frequency of the development of attacks or a stopping of said attacks occurs. A positive effect is observed by a course administration of at least 6 mg per day for 20-30 days. A repetition of analogous or shorter courses of therapy led to a significant prolongation of the free period.
[0087]4.4. Use of the preparation in pregnant women actively taking heroin. The manifestations of the abstinence syndrome were rapidly reduced in pregnant women, who terminated the narcotic intake and used Deltaran in a dose of at least 6 mg per day for 20-30 days during pregnancy and/or prepartum. The newborn children did either not develop an abstinence syndrome or developed an abstinence syndrome in a form, which did not required any treatment.
[0088]5. Possibilities of using the drug in oncology practice. Incorporation of the drug into a complex concomitant therapy of oncologic diseases leads to an improvement of psycho-emotional condition of the patients, to an increase of motion activity, to an improvement of sleep and appetite, and an increase of the pain limit. An intranasal administration of the drug in a dose of at least 0.3 mg per day for 7-10 days allows a decrease of the necessary dose of narcotic and non-narcotic analgetics in case of difficulties in or even impossibility of radical treatment of the disease. In the following conduction of short-term courses of at least 2-3 days and a period between the courses of 7-10 days is effective.
[0089]5.1. The use of the drug in a minimal dosage of at least 3 mg/day for at least 5 days at the early period of polychemotherapy-induced pancytopenia led to a more rapid restoration of the leucocytes and consequently to a lower frequency of infectious complications and therefore to a reduced need to antibacterial and antimycotic therapy. The described effectiveness of the drug is realized in the treatment of children as well as of adult oncology cases. The average duration of leucopenia in patients receiving the drug was 8.2.+-.0.5 days, and in patients that did not receive the drug aid leucopenia lasted for 13.2.+-.0.8 days. A significant improvement of the psycho-emotional status made it easier for children with an oncologic disease to stay in the hospital.
[0090]6. Use of the preparation in a complex therapy of burnings in pediatric practice. Intranasal administration of the drug in a daily dose of at least 3-9 mg led to an acute acceleration of the recovery from shock condition and subsequently, when continuing the therapy in the post-shock period to a significant improvement in psycho-emotional sphere (sleep improvement, appetite improvement, reduction of bandage fear), and to an acceleration of healing and graft acceptance in the treatment of children with a damage area of more than 47% of the body surface and a marked septic toxemia.
[0091]6.1. Intranasal administration of the drug in a dose of at least 3-6 mg per day leads to a significant acceleration of wound surface healing and to an improvement of the psycho-emotional state of the patients in the case of a significantly lower damage.
[0092]7. Use of the preparation in complex therapy of severe cranio-cerebral trauma. Intranasal administration of high doses of the preparation (up to 15 mg per day) allowed to save life of patients that underwent a life-threatening severe cranio-cerebral trauma. In the case of a long-term control of patients after a severe cranio-cerebral trauma with a surgical removal of the crush injury locus of the brain a course administration of the drug in a dose of at least 3 mg twice per day for 5-7 days led to the disappearance of pathological phenomena in 70% of patients during the first month, and to a normalization of sleep in 100% of patients. Functional stress did not cause paroxysmal activity in the majority of patients, which allowed in 24% of the patients to reduce the dose of anticonvulsive drugs and in 4% of the observation to cancel these drugs totally.
[0093]7.1. In the case of incorporation of the drug into a complex therapy of patients with a history of diffuse axonal damage in conditions of deep coma, where a stable vegetative condition is not formed, a regress of neurological deficit in motion and sensuous spheres occurs and patients can attend to themselves. Intranasal or intravenous drug administration in a dose of at least 3 mg/day for at least one week to treat such severe patients allows to reduce lethality (more than two fold), to improve prognosis for conscious restoration, to significantly reduce invalidization and to improve quality of life. In the case of use of the drug the expenses for conventionally used drugs are significantly reduced.
[0094]7.2. Use of the drug is effective and justified in the case of pathology of central and peripheral nervous system (meningitis, encephalitis of any genesis, paresis, and insults). In the case of emergency situations (shock of any genesis) the use at least 3 ampoules of the preparation per day until recovery from the critical condition leads to a significant reduction of lethality, to an improvement of the subsequent course of the disease and to a significant reduction of the hospitalization period.
[0095]8. The use of the drug in surgery is indicated for acceleration of wound healing, for creating conditions of primary adhesion of postoperative wound and for avoiding formation of deep scars and keloids. Multiplicity of the metabolic effects of the drug and its anti-stress activity inter alia provide for a reduction of immune depression and therefore lead to an acceleration of wound healing when administered intranasally in a dose of at least 3 mg per day during the entire postoperative period.
[0096]8.1 Prophylactic intranasal administration of the drug in a dose of at least 3 mg per day 5 days before operative treatment in case of planned operations significantly reduces the risk of post-surgical complications and significantly increases the rate of wound healing, even in gerontological patients. In the case of drug use in the pre- and post-surgical period the wound practically always heals by first intention.
[0097]8.2 Course use of the drug in the pre-surgical periods in case of a planned operation with an artificial blood circulation provides for an advantageous course of narcosis recovery and for a significantly reduction of the risk of severe post-operative complications and for a reduction of the hospitalization duration. The intranasal or intravenous drug administration in a dose of at least 3 mg per day during the entire pre- and postoperative period is highly effective for correction of insomnia and asthenic conditions in pre- and post-surgical periods (for extensive surgical interventions including those using artificial blood circulation).
[0098]8.3 Use of the drug in patients with pyoinflammatory diseases of the maxillofacial region, including those with severe background pathology, leads to a decrease of the signs of intoxication, edema, functional impairment and pain syndrome. An intranasal course administration of the preparation in a dose of at least 3 mg per day during the entire acute phase of a purulent inflammation leads to a positive effect with respect to wound cleansing, to generation of primary granulation and to enhancement of the antibacterial effect of systemic and local antibiotics.
[0099]9. Intranasal application of the drug in cosmetic medicine leads to a substantial improvement of the skin turgor, to an improvement of microcirculation, to the ability of the skin to conserve moisture and to an improvement of the resistance to common infections. A regular conduction (not less than once in a month) of short-term treatment courses with at least 3 mg per day for 5-7 days during a long-term period (of half a year and more) is effective in cosmetic medicine. Incorporation of the drug into the composition of creams, including creams for the skin treatment around the eyes, of tonics, lotions and milk for skin treatment of the face and the body in a dose of at least 3 mg per volume of the cosmetic for one skin treatment application considerably improves the microcirculation and a consequence also improves the complexion, leads to the disappearance of dark circles under the eyes, and normalizes skaling of affected skin at the face and the trunk in a course treatment for at least one week. Incorporation of the drug into the composition of creams, including creams for the skin treatment around the eyes, of tonics, lotions and milk for the skin treatment of the face and the body in a dose of at least 6 mg per volume of the cosmetic for one skin treatment application leads to a significant improvement of the status of the facial skin and the periorbital region for a significant time period.
[0100]10. The use of the preparation in veterinarian medicine regarding small, middle and large mammals, including dogs and cats allows for a significant reduction of the treatment period of contagious and parasitic diseases and for an increase of the resistance to various infectious contaminations and stressful situations (e.g. exhibitions, passages, changes of owners, etc.) by intranasal or intramuscularly, subcutaneous or intravenous administration in a dose of at least 1 mg for 1-5 days.
[0101]11. Application of the drug in combination with the synergistically acting amino acid glycine being an inhibitory neurotransmitter and its derivative trimethylglycine allows for the use of the agent in shorter treatment courses of at least 1 day, achieving a similar and even a greater positive therapeutic effect.
[0102]12. The use of the agent in combination with such biogenic matter like carnitine, carnosine, homocarnosine or their precursors in intranasal, intramuscular or intravenous application in a dose of at least 3-6 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5-10 days results in improvement of the appetite, in growth acceleration and body weight gain and supports normalization of the hyperthyroidism metabolism. Furthermore, said combined drug use is effective in the treatment of anorexia caused by nervous and physical attrition or after previous diseases, operations, and in chronic ischemic heart disease.
[0103]13. Use of the agent in combination with Nicotinamide or vitamin PP (niacin) representing a hydrogen carrier and effecting oxidation-reduction-processes supports an improvement of the carbohydrate metabolism particularly in case of diabetes mellitus type II in middle-aged and elderly patients (by intranasal or intravenous application in a dose of at least 3-6 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 10-20 days), and is also indicated in case of liver diseases, and peptic ulcer of the stomach and the duodenum (by intranasal or intravenous application in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5 days), in case of slow-healing ulcers and wounds including those of trophic nature in varicose veins of the inferior extremities (by intranasal or intramuscular application in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5 days, and also by local treatment of the damaged surface in a dose of at least 6 mg per volume of the agent for ligation).
[0104]14. Use of the agent in combination with vitamin B.sub.1 (Thiamine) in neuritis, radiculitis, neuralgia and peripheral paralysis supports a faster resolution of the acute symptoms, a reduction of the hospitalization period and a reduction of invalidism by intranasal or intramuscular application in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5-10 days.
[0105]15. Use of the agent in combination with vitamin B.sub.1 (Thiamine) and vitamin B.sub.12 (cyancobalamin) and their derivatives in dermatology is effective in resolution of neurogenic pruritus, is effective in pyoderma, psoriasis or eczema by intranasal, intravenous or intramuscular application in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5-10 days.
[0106]16. Use of the agent in combination with Vitamin B.sub.6 (pyridoxine) and its derivatives supports an enhancement of the metabolism of tryptophane, methionine, cystein, glutamic and other amino acids and supports the resolution of pregnancy toxemia and improving the condition of the fetus in water rich pregnancy by intranasal or intramuscular application in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5-10 days.
[0107]17. Use of the agent in combination with Vitamin B.sub.6 (pyridoxine) and its derivatives supports an increase of the efficacy of recombinant growth factors in leukopenic conditions and allows for a reduction of their course of application by intranasal, intramuscular or intravenous application of the agent in a dose of at least 3-6 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5-10 days.
[0108]18. Use of the agent in combination with Vitamin B.sub.6 (pyridoxine) and its derivatives allows for an application of the agent at minimal doses obtaining analogous and even higher positive therapeutic effect in Meniere's disease, in sea and air sickness and also in involutional depressions by intranasal application of the agent in a dose of at least 3-6 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 10-20 days.
[0109]19. Injections of the agent in combination with vitamin B.sub.12 (cyancobalamine) or its derivatives is indicated for the reduction of painful syndrome in treatment of diseases of the central nervous system, of traumatic diseases of peripheral nerves, for the reduction of the frequency of migraine attacks by intramuscular or intravenous administration of the agent in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day until reduction of the painful syndrome or for at least 5 days each month.
[0110]20. Use of the agent in combination with phosphatide lecithine and its constituent choline reduces or prevents fatty liver infiltration and is indicated for Botkin's disease, hepatitis, liver cirrhosis (mainly in early stages), hypothyroidism, cystinuria, and chronic alcoholism by intranasal or intramuscular application of the agent in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 10 days with repeated courses of at least two times a year.
[0111]21. Intranasal or intramuscular application of the agent in combination with lipoic acid in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 10 days with repeated courses of at least 3 times a year is indicated for the prevention and treatment of coronary atherosclerosis, liver diseases (light or middle-severe Botkin's disease--in absence of an intensive or increasing jaundice; chronic hepatitis, cirrhosis), of diabetic polyneuritis, and of intoxications.
Continuided in next post !Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 04-09-2013 at 01:22 PM.
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04-09-2013, 01:16 PM #22
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Continued from pervious post
[0112]22. Intranasal application of the agent in combination with ascorbic acid in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5 days is indicated for prophylaxis and treatment of Barlow's disease, of hemorrhagic diathesis, of nasal, parenteral, pulmonary and other hemorrhages, and also of an overdosage of anticoagulants, of contagious diseases, of slow-healing wounds and fractures of bones. Use of the agent in combination with ascorbic acid improves the tolerance to serious exercise stress and strain, particularly in pregnancy.
[0113]23. The long-term use of the agent in combination with the vitamin E (alpha-Tocopherol) reduces the severity of clinical manifestations and increases the duration and stability of neurologic remission in neuromuscular diseases (e.g. muscular dystrophy, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, etc.).
[0114]24. Short-term intensive intranasal application of the agent in a dose of at least 6 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5 days in combination with the vitamin E (alpha-Tocopherol) to men suffering from a disturbance of spermatogenesis and potency results in recovery of normal erectile function.
[0115]25. Use of the agent in combination with vitamin A (Retinol) and/or its precursors in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 10 days allows for a reduction of the volume of therapeutic interventions in skin damages and skin diseases (e.g. chilblains, wounds, ichthyosis, follicular dyskeratosis, senile keratosis).
[0112]22. Intranasal application of the agent in combination with ascorbic acid in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5 days is indicated for prophylaxis and treatment of Barlow's disease, of hemorrhagic diathesis, of nasal, parenteral, pulmonary and other hemorrhages, and also of an overdosage of anticoagulants, of contagious diseases, of slow-healing wounds and fractures of bones. Use of the agent in combination with ascorbic acid improves the tolerance to serious exercise stress and strain, particularly in pregnancy.
[0113]23. The long-term use of the agent in combination with the vitamin E (alpha-Tocopherol) reduces the severity of clinical manifestations and increases the duration and stability of neurologic remission in neuromuscular diseases (e.g. muscular dystrophy, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, etc.).
[0114]24. Short-term intensive intranasal application of the agent in a dose of at least 6 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 5 days in combination with the vitamin E (alpha-Tocopherol) to men suffering from a disturbance of spermatogenesis and potency results in recovery of normal erectile function.
[0115]25. Use of the agent in combination with vitamin A (Retinol) and/or its precursors in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 10 days allows for a reduction of the volume of therapeutic interventions in skin damages and skin diseases (e.g. chilblains, wounds, ichthyosis, follicular dyskeratosis, senile keratosis).
[0116]26. Course application of the agent in combination with Riboxinum (a derivative of the nucleoside purine) in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 10 days allows for a reduction of the volume of therapeutic interventions in ischemic heart diseases (e.g. chronic coronary failure and myocardial infarction) and in myocardial dystrophy.
[0117]27. Course application of the agent in combination with vegetable bioflavonoides being capable of stimulating and accelerating tissue reparation processes allows for an effective use of the agent in repeating short-term administration courses in a dose of at least 3 mg within one-three days with intervals between the courses of up to 4 weeks, thus creating conditions for a significant improvement of the metabolism of tissues exposed to oxidative stress.
[0118]28. Intranasal, intramuscular or intravenous repeated use of the agent in combination with succinic acid and its derivatives, and also with macroelements and trace elements (e.g. magnesium, potassium, calcium, chrome, selenium ions, etc.) in a dose of at least 3 mg within 3-5 days with intervals of up to 4 weeks and a repetition of courses at least once in three months shows a significant positive effect on liver metabolism, and is indicated for acute and/or chronic intoxication (including alcoholic intoxication) and for functional disorders of the liver caused by hepatitis. Use of the agent in combination with succinic acid and derivatives thereof considerably enhances the tolerability of intensive physical stress, increases the resistance to air pollution by toxic waste products (including conditions of living in a megacity), and supports the conservation and maintenance of mnestic functions under conditions of sustained attention.
[0119]29. Course application of the agent in combination with herbal nutriceuticals on the basis of extracts of garlic, onion, green tea, ginseng, grapes, licorice, ginger, gotu kola, ginkgo biloba and coniferous plants. in a dose of at least 3-6 mg per day with a ratio of 3 mg agent:10-250 therapeutic doses of the nutriceutical at least once per day for at least 10-15 days leads to a significant improvement of the quality of life, to an improvement of tolerance to psycho-emotional, physical and infectious-induced stress, and is indicated for prophylaxis of development of stress-associated diseases and for the treatment of various manifestations of the metabolic syndrome.
[0120]30. The use of the preparation is also indicated for other cases, including: for prophylaxis and treatment of sea and air sickness, wherein intranasal or intramuscular application of the agent according to claim 1 or claim 2, or claim 3, or claim 4, or claim 5, or claim 6, or claim 7, or claim 8 is performed in a dose of at least 3 mg at least 1-2 times per day for at least 1-2 days in combination with Vitamin B.sub.6 (pyridoxine) and its derivatives.
[0121]The use of the drug does not provide a direct sedative effect. The intensity of the somnolescent effect of the preparation is directly proportional to the level of abnormalities in the sleep structure and the psycho-emotional condition.
[0122]According to its molecular structure and its chemical and biological effect the drug is phylogenetically conservative and not species-specific and therefore not able to cause an allergic reaction. In the clinical use no case of intolerance of the drug was observed.
[0123]The preparation compensates a DSIP-deficit of the organism providing for a restoration of the central nervous system work and optimizes its function. The drug therefore consequently leads to a favorable course of diseases in terms of highly increasing efficacy of standard medical agents and preventing the development of complications. The multiplicity of the effects of the drug is associated with the manifestation of the central DSIP effect being the normalization of the cell respiration function by acting on the cellular mitochondrial apparatus by modification of the GABA-receptor activity.
[0124]The stabilization of CNS functions and the neuroprotective activity (prevention of neuronal loss) according to the present invention allow to use of the present agent as follows: [0125]1. in emergency medicine for reducing acute, life threatening conditions; [0126]2. in preventive medicine, even under arctic conditions, emergency conditions and conditions of technogenic catastrophe, for the prevention of development of complications in terms of physical and psycho-emotional overloads, for the decrease of central nervous system disorders in different manifestations of the metabolic syndrome. A single course and/or permanent application of the agent provides for an optimal level of performance capability of operators under extreme conditions (intensive physical and psycho-emotional stress, exposure to unfavorable environmental factors--including climatic, toxic, etc.); [0127]3. for prophylaxis and improvement of efficacy of treatment of diseases the severity of which is stress-associated to a certain extent, such as cardiovascular diseases (infarction and insults), diabetes, etc.; [0128]4. in the treatment of infectious diseases and diseases complicated by secondary infections: for reduction of manifestations of secondary immunosuppression to provide a significant improvement of the etiopathology of such diseases like tuberculosis, Lyme disease, pneumonia, wound infections, etc. Single-twofold application of the drug prior to conduction of a prophylactic vaccination significantly reduces the risk of development of complications in infant or adult patients with a burdened anamnesis. [0129]5. in restorative medicine and operative surgery for the normalization of the regenerative processes after trauma, after chemical intoxication and operative treatments. Course application of the drug in pre- and postoperative period in case of planned operations, including operations with application of extracorporeal circulation prevents development of post-operative complications and is indicated for preventing of development and for treating posttraumatic stress disorder; [0130]6. in cosmetic medicine: the long-term use of short-term courses of the drug improves significantly the skin turgor, the microcirculation, the resistance to common infections, and skin's ability to restore moisture; [0131]7. the use of the preparation retards development of neurodegenerative processes in the CNS in case of chronic and acute intoxication (in particular alcoholic and narcotic intoxication or of other diseases (multiple sclerosis, gout, senile dementia) and also decreases the extent of vascular and metabolic abnormalities, associated with the aging process. The agent is effective in the prevention of neurodegenerative processes in patients with alcoholic and other neurotropics and narcotics abuse, and in the treatment of cranio-cerebral trauma and ischemic brain damage. The agent is also an anti-aging drug; [0132]8. in reproductive medicine and neonatology for significant reduction of manifestations resulting from birth traumas (infantile cerebral paralysis, etc.), of traumatic brain injury (TBI), of unfavorable influence on the fetus by metabolic and toxic pathologies of the mother (children of narcotic addicts, children's diabetes, late toxicosis). The drug may be used as a agent for fetal protection under conditions of unfavorable effects induced by metabolic, traumatic, toxic and other factors; [0133]9. in pediatrics for compensation of an endogenous FDSIP deficiency in the early postnatal period in children not receiving breast milk, and also for normalization of psychic health of children suffering from hyperexcitability and attention deficit syndromes; [0134]10. repeated course administration of the preparation is indicated for prophylaxis of development of malignant neoplasms under apparent effect of cancerogens and procancerogens of various acting mechanism (in particular under conditions of unhealthy and hazardous production, technogenic accidents, etc.). The antimutagenic effect of the preparation is due to its basic acting mechanism in particular under the massive impact of mutagens (ionizing radiation, radiotherapy and X-ray therapy, multiple repeated X-ray examinations, etc.); [0135]11. repeated (multiple) long-term (not less than 21-30 days) course administration of the preparation with a minimal course dose of not less than 60 mg leads to a significant reduction in frequency of the development of convulsive attacks in epilepsy, to a normalization of activation-inhibition processes, to an improvement of mnestic functions and to a significant reduction of dyssomnia; [0136]12. The method has been approved for treatment of animals in case of infectious, parasitic, noncontagious internal and surgical disorders to allow for a reduction of the period of traditional treatment by at least 2 times, to allow for preventing complications and massive reducing the number of fatal cases by administering the drug, wherein intranasal or subcutaneous administration is performed in a dose of at least 1-3 mg per day for at least 2-5 days. The use of the drug leads to an acceleration of regenerative processes in affected organs and tissues and to acceleration of recovery. [0137]The method of prophylaxis and treatment of stress conditions using the present agent is characterized in that the compositions according to the invention are used: [0138]intranasally in form of nose drops or in form of a spray; [0139]sublingually in form of dissolving tablets or capsules; [0140]in form of powders, suppositories, ointments, creams; [0141]in form of different injections (intracutaneously, subcutaneously, intramuscularly, intravenously); [0142]in form of different cosmetics (creams, lotions, tonics, cosmetic milks, foams, soaps, etc.); [0143]as components of the products for children nutrition.
Source: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090098096Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 04-09-2013 at 01:18 PM.
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04-09-2013, 01:21 PM #23
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04-10-2013, 05:14 AM #24
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04-10-2013, 06:31 PM #25
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Thank you very much and are you happy with the sleep resulths at that dosage doing it SubQ ?
I am also going to use it to stop my pain meds that I have been scripted and just can't shake I was on 60 mg of Oxycodone a day 10 mg every 4 hrs and when I got tappered off to 4 that was where my system started with the withdrawals !
I have cut my Xanax script of 8 mg a day all the way down to 1 mg and for some reason every once in a while I will requir 2 mg a day ? I hope to be free of Xanax in about a long month and the DSIP is supposed to me taken 3 mg per day to stop opiate withdrawals for 10 days and then the monkey is off your back ! I want to be pill free so bad but my body is stronger than my mind in the seemingly desire or need for the drug ?
I do have sleep issues and have found it for $10.00 for 2 mg vials !!
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10-29-2017, 04:34 PM #26New Member
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"You're a good Guinea pig."
Much of this is slightly off topic, but it addresses what you said.
There are a lot of good peptides out there. Even some of the latest research chemicals are pretty solid.
CJC 1295 WITH DAC (the only true CJC 1295- without is just mod GRF 1-29) couples well with ipamorelin. I use the CJC at the beginning of the week, then use the ipamorelin before bed. Don't use the ipamorelin in the morning. The lethargy will kill you.
Also, using any GHRP, GRF, GHRH in combination with MK 677 would be a mistake. You get lots of GH, it's noticeable, but the lethargy is debilitating!
Give MK a shot! Definitely use it at night. Definitely use no more than 25 mg. MK 677 is dose dependant. To a degree, the more you use the more GH you get. But, it's so strong that using higher doses makes the lethargy unbearable!
I get it in liquid form. I use it sublingually. I figure one less liver pass is better. I haven't seen any data that suggests the second liver pass from ingesting it is beneficial.
If that's not your style, try the CJC w/ DAC with another short acting peptide on top of it. The CJC w/ DAC need only be dosed once per week. Just 1 mg does the trick. So, one vial goes pretty far.
The MK's half life isn't nearly as long...about 24 hours.
Steer clear of GH agonists like hexarelin and GHRP2. They've been shown to cause pituitary desensitization.
I haven't tried the TB 500. I'll look into it.
I came here looking for dosing on phospho DSIP, but a few of the guys in this thread seem to agree with you on the TB 500.Last edited by JC96; 10-29-2017 at 04:38 PM. Reason: Forgot something
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First Test-E cycle in 10 years
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