Are AI's AAS dose dependant?

**likelifting** · 02-04-2013, 07:59 PM

Newbie ????

So if U are running a TRT dose, AI's aren't always needed. But if you are running a 600-900mgs you will most likely need an AI. So if someone runs 1500-2000 will you need a higher dose AI?

I know bloods are needed, but in general...

**zaggahamma** · 02-04-2013, 08:02 PM

yes.

**redz** · 02-04-2013, 08:03 PM

Not exactly, as your dosing goes up you would be more likely to have higher estrogen but not necessarily in a linear way. Yes you need more ai as estrogen levels get higher.

**The Bear 79** · 02-04-2013, 08:05 PM

I was told no before I started my blast & cruise, but as it turns out, you do in fact need a higher dose of AI when using higher doses of AAS. I didn't need to boost my AI dose until I hit about 1,800 mg/wk & noticed my nipples were getting puffy & sensitive & a bit of a lump started forming, even though I was using Aromasin dosed at 10 mg/ed.

**Sgt. Hartman** · 02-04-2013, 08:18 PM

No....but sometimes they can be depending on other factors.

The rate of aromatization and thereby E levels is determined by the amount of aromatase in the body. The amount of aromatase is dependent on a lot of different factors but the amount of test, endo or exo is not a major factor. So we control aromatase with an ai so it's a somewhat fixed variable. So really it shouldn't matter whether you run 500mg or 1g of test if aromatase is a constant level. Higher test levels can't cause the fixed amount of aromatase to convert more regardless of how high T is.

Only so much of the enzyme is in each of us and it doesn't increase in relation to the amount of aromatizable aas injected. So once you pass a certain threshold (which is obviously individual dependant) it really doesn't matter. Other factors like genetics, body composition, and other compounds being run (DHT or 19nor) can be a factor though.

**likelifting** · 02-04-2013, 08:20 PM

I just blasted with some Test instead of adding Tren and I bloated and noticed some nip sides. Was running Anastrozole at .25 eod at the start but was able to reduce and still be ok. I don't think you are supposed to go by feel with Estrogen but thats what I did for a little bit so I dropped to .25 every 3rd day.

But once I blasted something happened. Was running 750mg/wk and then jumped to 2000mg. Maybe I should have ramped. Like I said, I'm a newbie and learning. I'm old so not too worried about this shit, just learning.

**likelifting** · 02-04-2013, 08:21 PM

I've gotten sooooooo friggin much out of this last cycle that a bump in the road doesn't concern me. Thought I should add that.

**likelifting** · 02-04-2013, 08:22 PM

Also....thanks for the input. Put it all in the memory bank for next run.

**MickeyKnox** · 02-05-2013, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman

No....but sometimes they can be depending on other factors.

The rate of aromatization and thereby E levels is determined by the amount of aromatase in the body. The amount of aromatase is dependent on a lot of different factors but the amount of test, endo or exo is not a major factor. So we control aromatase with an ai so it's a somewhat fixed variable. So really it shouldn't matter whether you run 500mg or 1g of test if aromatase is a constant level. Higher test levels can't cause the fixed amount of aromatase to convert more regardless of how high T is.

Only so much of the enzyme is in each of us and it doesn't increase in relation to the amount of aromatizable aas injected. So once you pass a certain threshold (which is obviously individual dependant) it really doesn't matter. Other factors like genetics, body composition, and other compounds being run (DHT or 19nor) can be a factor though.

Spot on Sarge. Especially the highlighted parts.

**ironbeck** · 02-05-2013, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by MickeyKnox

Spot on Sarge. Especially the highlighted parts.

I respectfully disagree and agree with BEARS post, Also from my own personal experience.

**MickeyKnox** · 02-05-2013, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by ironbeck

I respectfully disagree and agree with BEARS post, Also from my own personal experience.

Respected.

Are you suggesting that the more exogenous testosterone i introduce into my body, the more aromatase inhibitor i will require to combat rising E2? If this were true, myself and others would be dosing very large amounts of Aromasin or Adex..which i don't. And 10mg of Aromasin/day is not unusual. In fact its what i am about to change my recommendations to, after i complete my research. But that's another story.

Please expand brother. Im looking for dosing amounts vs AAS.

**The Bear 79** · 02-05-2013, 06:32 AM

I am not "estrogen sensitive" by any means, but when I got my Test. dose up to 2,750 I had to use a full ml of Letro to reduce the puffiness & sensitivity.

So if that doesn't prove the more gear you use the more AI you need, then I don't know what will.

**Sgt. Hartman** · 02-05-2013, 08:13 AM

So how does increasing your test dose increase aromatase?

You got BW you could post up?

I'm not doubting you had to increase your AI dose when you got to 3G test (lol) but there had to be other factors involved.

**The Bear 79** · 02-05-2013, 08:17 AM

Well, the foundation of my theory is this: The more Test. you use, the more there is to convert to Estrogen.

Anytime I've had blood work done, I had everything well balanced, so there would be no evidence there.

**The Bear 79** · 02-05-2013, 08:21 AM

At any rate, I am definitely interested to find out what other that elevated E2 could cause me to need a higher AI dose to reduce sensitive nipples & puffiness...................

**kelkel** · 02-05-2013, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman

No....but sometimes they can be depending on other factors.

The rate of aromatization and thereby E levels is determined by the amount of aromatase in the body. The amount of aromatase is dependent on a lot of different factors but the amount of test, endo or exo is not a major factor. So we control aromatase with an ai so it's a somewhat fixed variable. So really it shouldn't matter whether you run 500mg or 1g of test if aromatase is a constant level. Higher test levels can't cause the fixed amount of aromatase to convert more regardless of how high T is.

Only so much of the enzyme is in each of us and it doesn't increase in relation to the amount of aromatizable aas injected. So once you pass a certain threshold (which is obviously individual dependant) it really doesn't matter. Other factors like genetics, body composition, and other compounds being run (DHT or 19nor) can be a factor though.

^^This exactly. I'll add that we all have varying amounts of aromatase enzyme unique to our own physiology. Sensitivity is another issue dependent on other factors. Personal example is that my E runs steady around 16 without an AI, yet I'm still nip sensitive.

**Sgt. Hartman** · 02-05-2013, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by The Bear 79

Well, the foundation of my theory is this: The more Test. you use, the more there is to convert to Estrogen.

Anytime I've had blood work done, I had everything well balanced, so there would be no evidence there.

More test doesn't cause higher estrogen, more aromatase causes higher estrogen.

**The Bear 79** · 02-05-2013, 09:34 AM

I can agree with that based on the proof provided through research & until now I was just as adamant as you that is is the only answer........... But again I ask, if it wasn't estrogen causing the estrogen related side effect subsequently forcing my to not only raise my AI dose but switch to stronger AI as well....................then what was it?

**kelkel** · 02-05-2013, 09:38 AM

Bear you just may carry a lot of the enzyme within you. Our individual internal makeup can be quite unique!

**The Bear 79** · 02-05-2013, 09:47 AM

Wonder if I can get a Doc. to test that?

**Sgt. Hartman** · 02-05-2013, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by The Bear 79

I can agree with that based on the proof provided through research & until now I was just as adamant as you that is is the only answer........... But again I ask, if it wasn't estrogen causing the estrogen related side effect subsequently forcing my to not only raise my AI dose but switch to stronger AI as well....................then what was it?

I don't know what it could be but I do know that on a test only cycle it doesn't matter whether its 300mg or a gram my AI dose can stay the same. But throw in tren (which doesn't aromatize) in the same cycle and I have to up my AI.

**The Bear 79** · 02-05-2013, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman

I don't know what it could be but I do know that on a test only cycle it doesn't matter whether its 300mg or a gram my AI dose can stay the same. But throw in tren (which doesn't aromatize) in the same cycle and I have to up my AI.

Prolactin.

**likelifting** · 02-05-2013, 01:04 PM

Why don't peeps need AI's at TRT doses?

**likelifting** · 02-05-2013, 01:06 PM

Sounds like it isn't AAS dose dependant, but when I blasted a couple weeks ago, my libido dropped, some weird nip things and I bloated. Weird.

**bigpapabuff** · 02-05-2013, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman

More test doesn't cause higher estrogen, more aromatase causes higher estrogen.

The question is does more test cause more aromatase. Does the effect on shbg effect aromatase and estrogen levels as well. Im not so certain it is simple and clear cut.

**Juced_porkchop** · 02-05-2013, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by likelifting

Newbie ????

So if U are running a TRT dose, AI's aren't always needed. But if you are running a 600-900mgs you will most likely need an AI. So if someone runs 1500-2000 will you need a higher dose AI?

I know bloods are needed, but in general...

not everyone is the same it is not that simple.
for MOST on an trt dose they may not need it, but some still will to keep estro levels where they want them.

and just about everyone will need (or should use in my op) an AI on cycle doses, gyno is besides the point, there are high BP, and edema issues with high estrogen levels and other aswell, its not juts about gyno.

**Juced_porkchop** · 02-05-2013, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by likelifting

Why don't peeps need AI's at TRT doses?

some do!

**The Bear 79** · 02-05-2013, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by likelifting

Why don't peeps need AI's at TRT doses?

TRT is supposed to mimic a natural Test. level, so if you don't need an AI when off cycle at "normal" Test. levels then why would you need an AI on a dose that is the same as your natural level............................get it?

**Sgt. Hartman** · 02-05-2013, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by bigpapabuff

The question is does more test cause more aromatase. Does the effect on shbg effect aromatase and estrogen levels as well. Im not so certain it is simple and clear cut.

I agree it's not clear cut at all. But more test does not directly increase aromatase.

**likelifting** · 02-05-2013, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by The Bear 79

TRT is supposed to mimic a natural Test. level, so if you don't need an AI when off cycle at "normal" Test. levels then why would you need an AI on a dose that is the same as your natural level............................get it?

Absolutely makes sense. Never thought about it like that. Thx.

**Bonaparte** · 02-05-2013, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman

I agree it's not clear cut at all. But more test does not directly increase aromatase.

Are you certain that aromatase expression will not increase as a response to elevated (non-DHT derived) androgen levels? Your cells can obviously produce new aromatase enzymes (or otherwise suicide inhibitors would be a permanent solution), and we know that aromatase gene expression can be enhanced through a number of factors.

**MickeyKnox** · 02-05-2013, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

Are you certain that aromatase expression will not increase as a response to elevated (non-DHT derived) androgen levels? Your cells can obviously produce new aromatase enzymes (or otherwise suicide inhibitors would be a permanent solution), and we know that aromatase gene expression can be enhanced through a number of factors.

Agreed.

There are a variety of factors that increase aromatase activity include age, obesity, insulin , gonadotropins and alcohol. But I dont believe that the aromatase enzyme continues to build up forever. You reach a certain point and that's it. Otherwise Pro BB'rs would be taking outrageous amounts of AI to combat their outrageous amounts of Test. I have never seen, read, or heard of that. Does anyone else have any solid info on this?

Kel has a perfect example of having low Estrogen levels yet still experiences high Estrogen/Prolactin sides. And i agree, it really isn't that cut and dry, as already suggested. (Unless you suffer from Aromatase Excess Syndrome. But that's a whole other story)

**jimmyinkedup** · 02-05-2013, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

Are you certain that aromatase expression will not increase as a response to elevated (non-DHT derived) androgen levels? Your cells can obviously produce new aromatase enzymes (or otherwise suicide inhibitors would be a permanent solution), and we know that aromatase gene expression can be enhanced through a number of factors.

I would take it a step further and just as in the presence of increased androgen the ar receptor life is extended and its rate of generation doubled, Id suspect a similar expression in the production of aromatase. Of course both have a point of diminishing returns...but where????
In fact if I was going to look into this further I might look for a correlation between number of Androgen Receptors and any correlation to aromatase levels as my starting point. Just a thought.

**jimmyinkedup** · 02-05-2013, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by bigpapabuff

The question is does more test cause more aromatase. Does the effect on shbg effect aromatase and estrogen levels as well. Im not so certain it is simple and clear cut.

Me either.

**Sgt. Hartman** · 02-05-2013, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Bonaparte

Are you certain that aromatase expression will not increase as a response to elevated (non-DHT derived) androgen levels? Your cells can obviously produce new aromatase enzymes (or otherwise suicide inhibitors would be a permanent solution), and we know that aromatase gene expression can be enhanced through a number of factors.

No I'm not saying that it's not possible but I don't believe androgen levels are a primary factor in aromatase activity.

Aromatase is obviously dependent on a ton of different factors, especially because it's found in so many different tissues, and constantly changing, so to say androgens or AR's have absolutely no effect probably wouldn't be accurate. Hell what I ate for breakfast probably has some sort of effect on it......

I just don't see it as a determining factor or having any type of linear effect on aromatase though. My personal experience and many others show otherwise.

**Ashop** · 02-05-2013, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by likelifting

Newbie ????

So if U are running a TRT dose, AI's aren't always needed. But if you are running a 600-900mgs you will most likely need an AI. So if someone runs 1500-2000 will you need a higher dose AI?

I know bloods are needed, but in general...

Everyone is different but I think its a good idea when using moderate to higher dosages to run an AI.

**The Bear 79** · 02-05-2013, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by ALIN;63***94

Everyone is different but I think its a good idea when using moderate to higher dosages to run an AI.

It's a good idea to run an AI at any dose over TRT.

**Bonaparte** · 02-05-2013, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman;6377***

No I'm not saying that it's not possible but I don't believe androgen levels are a primary factor in aromatase activity.

Aromatase is obviously dependent on a ton of different factors, especially because it's found in so many different tissues, and constantly changing, so to say androgens or AR's have absolutely no effect probably wouldn't be accurate. Hell what I ate for breakfast probably has some sort of effect on it......

I just don't see it as a determining factor or having any type of linear effect on aromatase though. My personal experience and many others show otherwise.

I agree that aromatase expression/activity will not increase in a linear relation to T levels. However, I was challenging the guys who stated that we only have a set number of aromatase enzymes (implying that a normal dose of AI would bind them all up).

**likelifting** · 02-05-2013, 10:55 PM

Not sure if I agree with running an AI just cuz I'm running over a TRT dose. I'm new but AI can cause probs too, correct?

It just seems to boil down to get bloods.

**marcus300** · 02-06-2013, 02:19 AM

From my own experience and many clients who I use to advice using moderate to very high amounts of testosterone I would say that we are all different and some may need an increased amount of AI and others don't need no more than a standard dose. There are many factors what come into play other than testosterone what will increase aromatase activity. Not everyone has the same amount of aromatase activity so not everyone will need the same amount of AI to control it. Just take a look at some guys who run 500mgs of test, some get serious estrogen related sides and others dont need an AI its all your body and how your body responds to an increased amount of test but as we all know there are many other factors what come into play. Same with trt some need an AI other dont its all about balance within the body but from my personal experience of using very high amounts of testosterone I didn't need an increased amount of AI, I ran just my normal dose which controlled and balance my body if I ran an increased amount I would get problems but I do understand that some need and have to due to the aromatase activity they have, its found in many different tissue within the body and can change depending on a various things so its all about controlling and balancing your aromatase activity because nothing is set in stone.