Thread: coming off cycle contradiction
05-19-2003, 02:40 PM #1New Member
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- Dec 2002
coming off cycle contradiction
Why is it that everything i read about what to take and when to take, when coming off steriods seems to contradict each other. Some people say HCG is counterproductive when you take at the end of your cycle to get your LH pumping and others say it will make the HPTA get back to normal easier because of the increased LH production. What about the Clomid Vs. Novaldex debate? Does anyone actually know what they are talking about, who's right? So what exctly should i take and when exactly should i take it when coming off a cycle? Not to mention you have to worry about when to start clomid therapy, since i did deca and sust, 3 weeks after last shot right? And since they are both long acting do you have to taper them before you stop, wont they naturally taper themselves because they last so long? So far all I have is take proviron 50mgED after last shot until end of clomid therapy, then take Novaldex 20mgED until you start clomid then bump up to 40mgED until you finish clomid and the clomid 300mg/Day1, 100mg/next 10 days, 50mg/next 10 days. Do i even bother with the HCG? When do i start the clenbuterol , right away after last shot, or give it like a week? 2days on/2off right? Or should I say screw it all and jump into another cycle right now and tell my liver and kidneys to kiss my ass? Have open heart surgery at like 35-40 like Lee Priest and Arnold. What you guys think? Whos full of shit?
05-19-2003, 04:20 PM #2
Well I don't really like the tone of the post but I will answer it anyway. Recovery is an individual thing and certain things work better for some and not for others. In my opinion you should only use HCG on an extended cycle such as 16 weeks or longer. It should be used in the last two weeks of "on" time meaning the AAS is still in your system. If you take it after the AAS is out of your system it can be inhibitory. I think taking Nolvadex and Clomid is the best method of recovery but if I had to choose one I would take clomid (others prefer nolvadex). The schedule you have for clomid (including start time) and Nolvadex looks about right. You can start clen whenever you want and I prefer two weeks on two weeks off. I don't reccomend jumping into another cycle without taking the proper time off.
05-19-2003, 05:39 PM #3
hey cowboy u need chill,comming in here like that will definately get u flamed
05-19-2003, 06:18 PM #4Senior Member
- Join Date
- Apr 2002
- long island new york
Hey why don't you do some research for yourself and figure it out on your own.
Before you start talking about who's full of shit you might want to read up on each of these compounds and find out how each of them work and by what means they work.
Once you understand what axis each of these drugs work by it's pretty easy to figure out when and how to use them.
This is the best board around bro, no need to ask questions with a chip on your shoulder because you don't understand something.
05-19-2003, 08:08 PM #5
Actually, it looks like he has done some searching. He's just confused by it all. Understandable. As Rickson said, recovery is often times an individual thing. It took a few major crashes to figure out what works best for me. Now I know. Personally, HCG and Arimidex do me just fine. It was figuring out the dosing that was the trickiest part. Give Rickson's method a shot. If you crash, you'll know it didn't work for you. Then the next time you can try the HCG. Unfortunately, as scientific as we try to be, this isn't ALL science. Alot of it is trial and error and personal response to different compounds.
05-20-2003, 09:26 AM #6
Science by definition is trial and error. HCG last few weeks of cycle followed by some down time for drugs to leave the system (time varies depending on which drugs I choose), followed by 3-4 weeks of clomid treatment works excellent for me. My cycles are usually no more than 12 weeks though.
05-20-2003, 11:49 AM #7
I'm not usually full of shit. But tell me, how long was your cycle and what doses were you using? You will get varying answers depending on the length of your cycle, doses and AAS used. Most shorter 2-4 some even venture to say 8 week cycles may not require hCG therapy. But longer than that, well, possibly you could use hCG to your advantage. It is generally used to prevent testicular atrophy (by running 500 U/weekends only throughout cycle, or by running it for 2 weeks midcycle at 500-1000U/d and again same schedule towards end of cycle) or it is used to revert the atrophy after damage has already been done (this usually involves running it only near end of cycle in 1 of a # of ways to help restore the testes to full size before running clomid. For me, I have always liked the idea of preventing it rather than trying to revert it. But is my way the only right way? NO! You just want to make sure that when it comes time to run clomid, your nuts are going to be able to support and sustain the LH signal brought on by the clomid/nolva. You generally don't want to run hCG after the AAS have cleared because it is inhibitory of itself (just like any other sex hormone). So by running it say the 2-3 weeks BEFORE you finish (clear) AAS, you are still inhibited from the AAS so it is thought that any further inhibition brought on by hCG will not impact the recovering HPTA negatively. So basically if you took your last shot of sust/deca on day X, you would have this three week window where your system is clearing/eliminating the AAS (the 3 week window is chosen based on average half-lives of drugs used, and it is expected that the drugs will be cleared from the body by this time). *Note*-this three weeks will not be the same for every cycle or doses used, ie. if you were run 2 g of test + 1g of deca/week (yeah that's alot, but it will help state my point) for 12 weeks straight, you would have massive amounts of accumulation near d-day, and it may actually take longer than 3 weeks for your system to clear these doses. This should be pretty obvious: if you were to take 500mg/week of testE which has a t1/2 of ~ 6-7 days vs. 2g/week of testE, who do you think is going to have the higher blood levels come end of cycle? Or look at it like this: Week one you take 2g's, so if you dosed every half life which is about 1 week, come next dose you would have approximately 1g or 1000mg in your system when you inject your next 2g dose. Then in a few days when you reach peak blood levels, you will have what is left from first injection + this next injection, and would have ~ 2.5-3g's in your system and it goes on and on til end of cycle (this is in no way exact because so many other factors come into play when we talk about metabolism and excretion, but you see the point). So the more you have in your system come your last injection, the longer it is going to take to clear those doses. So know your half-lives and use a crude map to figure out how much you have left in you come d-day.
Anyways sorry to sidetrack! But you see where you would want to incorporate hCG if you were using it towards end of cycle? It would be used during the "clearing phase". Your exogenous hormone levels will be falling according to their half-lives, and you are blasting your testes with this synthetic LH to prime them and get them ready for the next step in recovery. This is where clomid/nolva/anastrozole (or any antiE that antagonizes the hypo/pit) come into play. These latter drugs will do nothing until total hormone levels have reached a low enough level to where they will not be able to inhibit the hypo/pit. You have already taken care of this by allowing the drugs to clear and by using the hCG during clearance(hCG has a half-life of ~ 1 day, so you wont have much accumulation of it to worry about). Now your hormone levels are low enough that when you start clomid/nolva etc. the hypo/pituitary recognizes this, and will be able to start producing the appropriate gonadotropins. And also, your testes will be able to utilize these gonadotropins better because you have made them more sensitive via hcG to accepting the incoming LH signal brought on by the antiE's. The whole deal behind sensitization, is that when your testes have been w/o LH signal for so long (and they will once you are and stay inhibited) they tend to atrophy because they are not receiving endogenous LH and therefore have no need to utilize it to make natural test. But the hCG "sensitizes" them, and shocks them out of hybernation. So now run your antiE for the remainder of the recovery phase; usually 3 weeks or so. If clomid is used, you can but don't have to do a loading dose of 300mg/day1, then 100mg/for 10 days, then 50mg/for last 10 days.
You could just as easily use nolva in place of clomid at 20-40mg/d.
Now you wanted to know why some use nolva or another antiE when using hCG? This is because once hCG stimulates the testes to produce endogenous test, this is pure, unesterified test coming out of these bad boys. And you have an abundant amount of aromatase enzyme in this area and throughout the body to readily convert the pure test into estrogens. In some people this will cause all the negative sides that estrogen usually gives you. But, if you keep your doses of hCG low (500U) range, this is usually not much of a problem. But if you find it is, take an antiE to combat the sides, and it doesn'n have to be nolva.
So I don't know if I even came close to giving you an answer, but I sure hope so, cuz I have gone over this so many times my head is spinning. But if you are still unclear, just say so. There is no such thing as a dumb question when it comes to AAS.
Now lemme try to summarize this mess:
1) hCG is used to sensitize the testes (by shocking them with supraphysiological doses) so they will be able to respond to LH stimulus and regain size and function. hCG has no effect on helping to recover the hypothalamus/pituitary from inhibition, only the testes. You can run it as atrophy prevention-500 U weekends only, or 2 weeks midcycle @ 500-1000U/d and again towards end. Or use it end only, to revert atrophy. But use it before you have cleared all AAS, so during your 3 week clearance period-if you chose to use it this way. You may need antiE's to prevent estrogen accumulation.
2) Use clomid to provide constant LH signal coming from hypo/pit. to subsequently stimulate the testes to keep producing endo test.
It is not the lack of LH that seems to be the problem in recovering, but rather the lack of the testes to be able to recognize this signal after being w/o it for so long. So yeah, you can make the hypo/pit produce LH, but if the testes aren't going to be able to use it, then this leaves you no where. You run clomid/nolva etc after hCG and after ALL hormone levels have declined appreciably.
Like tripple X said, once you understand the physiology of the HPTA, the drugs and how they act, you pretty much have it made. And like my boy Rickson said, consider it an individual thing. Recovery is not set in stone. There are many ways to manipulate these drugs to work for you in your favor and it is a matter of finding what works best for you.
Here is a site that may be helpful in your knowledge quest:
Last edited by ichabodcrane; 05-20-2003 at 12:53 PM.
05-20-2003, 11:56 AM #8
yeah, what HE said!!
05-23-2003, 02:32 PM #9New Member
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
Thanks alot, ichabod. You pretty much cleared everything up for me. I've been doing all sorts of reading and research, but it gets hard to put everything together. I usually find that people have different opinions that can sometimes conflict. But what you said cleared it all up. Nice to know guys like you are out there to make sure novices like me can understand all of this. Thanks again.
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