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Thread: My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

  1. #1281
    ZoomyR6 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    May not be the answer you're looking for but it's accurate. My guess would be a minimum of .25 adex the day of each injection and check bloods 4-6 weeks later. It's a guess until you pull BW. Starting small is always the correct choice, which is what this thread preaches with the recommended starting dose of 500 mgs. Again, you'd be shutting down your endogenous production for what many consider just a small amount over a hormone replacement dose.
    Kelkel, thank you for the response. I agree with you, it very well may be a waste of time. I am already on trt 100mg/wk as it is and seen a big difference so far. Some people are already under the assumption I'm on steroids . Theoretically, they are right. I do not want to draw any more attention to myself. I just want to mess around a little before going to 500mg in the spring.
    .25mg 2x/wk actually sounds logical. However, I don't know if this changes things. My blood work just came back. My E2 sensitive assay is 32 (was 29 prior to trt) so it only went up 3pts since being on 100mg/wk. Do you, or anyone else for that matter, think I can get away without having to take an AI based on my current labs given this minor bump? I do not want to tank my e2.

    Regards

  2. #1282
    ZoomyR6 is offline Junior Member
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    Double post
    Last edited by ZoomyR6; 09-11-2017 at 12:55 PM. Reason: double post

  3. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZoomyR6 View Post
    Kelkel, thank you for the response. I agree with you, it very well may be a waste of time. I am already on trt 100mg/wk as it is and seen a big difference so far. Some people are already under the assumption I'm on steroids . Theoretically, they are right. I do not want to draw any more attention to myself. I just want to mess around a little before going to 500mg in the spring.
    .25mg 2x/wk actually sounds logical. However, I don't know if this changes things. My blood work just came back. My E2 sensitive assay is 32 (was 29 prior to trt) so it only went up 3pts since being on 100mg/wk. Do you, or anyone else for that matter, think I can get away without having to take an AI based on my current labs given this minor bump? I do not want to tank my e2.

    Regards

    Well this changes things. I had not clue (or I missed it) that you were on TRT. You're not shutting yourself down so that makes a difference in the advice that I'd provide.

    So your E2 Sens was 29 before you initiated TRT whatsoever. Now it's 32 while on 100 mgs pw and I assume the range is about 8-35? If you're are planning on running 2.5 times your base TRT dose of 100 mgs you will need an AI as it will catch up to you. Personally I'd always prefer E2 a little higher than lower but imho you will need a small amount. If still not sure, maybe go 4 weeks and pull some minimal BW to see how your doing but I have little doubt you'll need some.

    Is your current protocol 100 mgs once pw?
    What TT and FT numbers is your BW showing at that dose, assuming pulling it just prior to injection?
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  4. #1284
    ZoomyR6 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Well this changes things. I had not clue (or I missed it) that you were on TRT. You're not shutting yourself down so that makes a difference in the advice that I'd provide.

    So your E2 Sens was 29 before you initiated TRT whatsoever. Now it's 32 while on 100 mgs pw and I assume the range is about 8-35? If you're are planning on running 2.5 times your base TRT dose of 100 mgs you will need an AI as it will catch up to you. Personally I'd always prefer E2 a little higher than lower but imho you will need a small amount. If still not sure, maybe go 4 weeks and pull some minimal BW to see how your doing but I have little doubt you'll need some.

    Is your current protocol 100 mgs once pw?
    What TT and FT numbers is your BW showing at that dose, assuming pulling it just prior to injection?
    Actually, the range for the sensitive e2 is < or =29.
    I'm not too concerned at people can get away with going as high as around 45 with no issues.

    My current protocol is 100mg 1x/wk and 250iu HCG 2x/wk

    My numbers were less than impressive:
    TT-447 (250-1100 taken in Afternoon right before shot-213 before trt)
    FT-98.8 (35-155 increase from 78 prior trt level)
    SHBG-15 (10-50 Dropped from 19 prior Trt
    DHT-14 (16-79 LOW)

  5. #1285
    kelkel's Avatar
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    I'm used to seeing 8-35 for E2 Sens via Labcorp. Yes, I'd always rather have slightly higher than lower E.
    Your numbers would be much more impressive if you split your injections to twice per week. 50 x 2. You'd have less E2 conversion to worry about and you'd maintain a much more stable (and higher) test levels.

    Test has a half-life of about 5 days or so metabolism dependent and peaks in about 24 hrs post injection. After that it's all downhill for the rest of the week as the below graph will show:



    If you choose to stay with your once pw protocol (I encourage you to switch) then inject your HCG both one and two days before your test injection. The point of this (old school) is to bump up waning T levels as they fade at the end of the week.
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  6. #1286
    ZoomyR6 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    I'm used to seeing 8-35 for E2 Sens via Labcorp. Yes, I'd always rather have slightly higher than lower E.
    Your numbers would be much more impressive if you split your injections to twice per week. 50 x 2. You'd have less E2 conversion to worry about and you'd maintain a much more stable (and higher) test levels.

    Test has a half-life of about 5 days or so metabolism dependent and peaks in about 24 hrs post injection. After that it's all downhill for the rest of the week as the below graph will show:



    If you choose to stay with your once pw protocol (I encourage you to switch) then inject your HCG both one and two days before your test injection. The point of this (old school) is to bump up waning T levels as they fade at the end of the week.
    I am most likely going to have to got with 2x/week anyway, if not, EOD or daily to get my SHBG raised. it is too low and should be much higher.
    Thank you for the feedback kelkel.

  7. #1287
    ZoomyR6 is offline Junior Member
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    ans what are your thoughts on mixing hcg and T in the same syringe to minimize the amount of injection a week and keep it at 2?

  8. #1288
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    No problem with mixing the two at all. Re SHBG - having lower shbg value isn't a problem unless you possess other signs such as metabolic syndrome.
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  9. #1289
    ZoomyR6 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    No problem with mixing the two at all. Re SHBG - having lower shbg value isn't a problem unless you possess other signs such as metabolic syndrome.
    I do not have any metabolic syndrome. I am, however, having sides related to low shbg.
    I can't seem to find the answer to this, BUT, would HGH have an effect on this? SHBG could mean metabolic syndrome, as you stated. That could mean insulin resistance. HGH causes this.
    Could the low SHGB be related to me taking HGH for the past 5 months? SHBG is still well within range but ideally should be higher that 25.

  10. #1290
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Yes. GH can effect shbg (even a low dose.) As GH elevates shbg can decrease and insulin can increase.
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  11. #1291
    ZoomyR6 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Yes. GH can effect shbg (even a low dose.) As GH elevates shbg can decrease and insulin can increase.
    Well thats the exact opposite of what I'm experiencing. My SHBG dropped.

  12. #1292
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZoomyR6 View Post
    Well thats the exact opposite of what I'm experiencing. My SHBG dropped.
    Odd but human. We can all metabolize differently and who knows what other factors can be having influence.
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  13. #1293
    abhijit38 is offline New Member
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    hey ..everyone great info for newbeis.. i goning to start a bulking cycle this is my first cycle so i do not want to make it complicated i research almost every compond i researching since 2 years .. some suggest me run old school deca dbol test combination there is no dought in that . this is great combination for putting mass.. but i want to keep things simple ..
    week 1-6 dbol 30 mg day
    week 1-12 test e 500 mg week
    week 11-14 hcg 1000iu per week
    week 15-18 clomid 50/50/25/25 with nolva 40/20/20/10.
    i use aromasin 12.5 or .5 eod from week 2 - 12
    questions
    i do not like pining can i do 500 mg at once per week . of test e in this cycle
    how much i expect from this cycle or it is better to i stack 400 mg deca in it ...
    have liver kidney and fish oil for protection

  14. #1294
    kelkel's Avatar
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    You don't want to make it complicated yet you're changing what's recommended in the first post of this thread. Why not simply follow this thread as it's meant to be and do it correctly? You don't need dbol . The basic premise is to learn what test will do for you and how to handle the sides without other variables.

    HCG should be from week 1 at a much lesser amount. Pin twice per week for stable levels. If pinning bothers you then you need to reconsider cycling until you're more ready.
    Last edited by kelkel; 09-27-2017 at 08:33 AM.
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  15. #1295
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    WOW, that answered so many questions. Thank you.

  16. #1296
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    swalleezy is offline New Member
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    This may seem like a silly question...if I have to run HCG , AI, (also 20mg accutane ed) in addition to test, how do I know the compounds counteracting sides are not causing issues?

  17. #1297
    kelkel's Avatar
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    There's a risk with anything in life. In this case though we know that totally shutting down your testicals is not healthy nor productive for obvious reasons. We also know that out of control estrogen levels will cause far more issues than levels that are maintained as normal. Sure you can try it without the above ancillaries but no one here would recommend it.

    There a plenty of threads here on guys having issues after not properly using ancillaries. I don't recall any on guys having issues while (properly) using them.
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  18. #1298
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    I'm back with a couple of questions One is subjective, one not.

    I ordered everything I'll need, including PCT, except the pins and stuff. Haven't gotten around to that yet. Just waiting for everything to arrive. Will probably start in the next week or two.

    On the not subjective part: What do you do when you travel? I have a few trips coming up for work, going home for Christmas, and a vacation in January. If I'm lucky, Christmas and my work trip in December won't interfere because they'll be short trips. If the timing does NOT line up, do I pin early? In January, though, I'll be gone probably four days for work and four days for vacation (separate times). That means I'll probably have to pin at least once. What do I do for those trips? I'll be flying for all of these trips, including the short ones.

    On the subject part: Is it normal to be a little nervous? Part of me kind of doesn't want to stop being natural just out of pride, part of me is worried about the risks (though I'm following the first post to the letter, so I know chances there are minimum), and part of me is just worried about pinning, though I don't have a fear of needles. I've never hit my body goals with my own work and when I look at the types of builds I want to emulate, none of them are natural. So, logically, this is a good path for me. Just hard to wrap my mind around now that I'm close to actually starting, if that makes sense.

  19. #1299
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aredee View Post
    I'm back with a couple of questions One is subjective, one not.

    I ordered everything I'll need, including PCT, except the pins and stuff. Haven't gotten around to that yet. Just waiting for everything to arrive. Will probably start in the next week or two.

    Be tough without the pins....

    On the not subjective part: What do you do when you travel? I have a few trips coming up for work, going home for Christmas, and a vacation in January. If I'm lucky, Christmas and my work trip in December won't interfere because they'll be short trips. If the timing does NOT line up, do I pin early? In January, though, I'll be gone probably four days for work and four days for vacation (separate times). That means I'll probably have to pin at least once. What do I do for those trips? I'll be flying for all of these trips, including the short ones.

    Just pin right before you leave and right when you get back. You'll be fine. Don't sweat it.

    On the subject part: Is it normal to be a little nervous? Part of me kind of doesn't want to stop being natural just out of pride, part of me is worried about the risks (though I'm following the first post to the letter, so I know chances there are minimum), and part of me is just worried about pinning, though I don't have a fear of needles. I've never hit my body goals with my own work and when I look at the types of builds I want to emulate, none of them are natural. So, logically, this is a good path for me. Just hard to wrap my mind around now that I'm close to actually starting, if that makes sense.

    Totally normal to have those feelings. You wouldn't be human if you didn't. Consider the pro's and con's and make your decision.
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  20. #1300
    aredee is offline New Member
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    hahaa I know I need the pins, but they are the easiest to get, so I've been putting it off. I was traveling for work this week; didn't want to get any without doing some more reading on which to get and didn't want to do that on my work PC

    Thanks again for your help! I'm really stoked on the end-goals, guess just need a little reassurance getting over the hump

  21. #1301
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Keep reading here aredee. Knowledge is power and your health is important so do things correctly.
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  22. #1302
    aredee is offline New Member
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    For sure and thanks again for your help!

  23. #1303
    Marietmc is offline Female Member
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    Wow this is HARD there isn’t a lot of females in any of these Threads there are some but not to many. Even in the female forums. MAN WTH

  24. #1304
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Marietmc I'll have admin turn you pink for access to the Female only Forum.
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  25. #1305
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Yes. GH can effect shbg (even a low dose.) As GH elevates shbg can decrease and insulin can increase.
    Kelkel, i knew that insulin decreasing SHBG, not increasing:

    Inverse association between serum insulin and sex hormone-binding globulin in a population survey in Sweden

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7962291

    DECREASED SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOBULIN (SHBG) AND INSULIN-LIKE GROWTH FACTOR BINDING PROTEIN (IGFBP-1) IN EXTREME OBESITY - WEAVER - 1990 - Clinical Endocrinology - Wiley Online Library

    Maybe there's something that i don't know accurately.

  26. #1306
    kelkel's Avatar
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    My key word was "can."
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  27. #1307
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    I haven't been able to find any information on what typical bloodwork numbers should look like pre, on, and post cycle.

  28. #1308
    aredee is offline New Member
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    I got my bloods back today. Everything was normal except:
    Lymphs (absolute) came back high (3.2 - range is listed as 0.7-3.1)
    Estradiol is high (60.8 - range is 7.6-42.6)
    ALT (SGPT) is high (46 - range is 0-44)

    I'm mostly concerned about the ALT (and mad about the estradiol). Is it safe to start with the ALT slightly above range like that?

    EDIT to add: Test is 740
    Last edited by aredee; 11-13-2017 at 08:38 PM.

  29. #1309
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    Quote Originally Posted by aredee View Post
    I got my bloods back today. Everything was normal except:
    Lymphs (absolute) came back high (3.2 - range is listed as 0.7-3.1)
    Estradiol is high (60.8 - range is 7.6-42.6)
    ALT (SGPT) is high (46 - range is 0-44)

    I'm mostly concerned about the ALT (and mad about the estradiol). Is it safe to start with the ALT slightly above range like that?

    EDIT to add: Test is 740
    are you currently running a cycle ? If so your test should be way higher .

    Don't worry about the ALT level , if it wasn't slightly elevated then your simply not training hard enough in the gym.
    Estadiol is not too bad either especially if you feel good,, keep in mind 'normal' on a estradiol blood work range is for 'normal' people, not enhanced.. you don't need to keep estrogen super low while blasting (unless your jumping on stage)

  30. #1310
    aredee is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    are you currently running a cycle ? If so your test should be way higher .

    Don't worry about the ALT level , if it wasn't slightly elevated then your simply not training hard enough in the gym.
    Estadiol is not too bad either especially if you feel good,, keep in mind 'normal' on a estradiol blood work range is for 'normal' people, not enhanced.. you don't need to keep estrogen super low while blasting (unless your jumping on stage)
    Nope, this is pre-cycle bloodwork. Wanted to make sure everything is okay before I started!

  31. #1311
    shadowdragon is offline New Member
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    I read every page on this thread, and I'm hoping this is the right thread as it is a question about my first cycle.

    1) I read a few pages back that Austinite doesn't recommend Aromasin because it takes longer to kick in;
    that being said would it be beneficial to front/pre load it, like take it a week before your first pin?

    2) Do the other AI's have a rebound effect since they only block not destroy the aromatose enzyme?

    3) On the Nolvadex info page they recommend to run it in cycle as well....
    Is this accurate and what dose is recommended and does it affect how you'd run your AI?

  32. #1312
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowdragon View Post
    I read every page on this thread, and I'm hoping this is the right thread as it is a question about my first cycle.

    1) I read a few pages back that Austinite doesn't recommend Aromasin because it takes longer to kick in;
    that being said would it be beneficial to front/pre load it, like take it a week before your first pin?

    No. Never front load an AI

    2) Do the other AI's have a rebound effect since they only block not destroy the aromatose enzyme?

    Rebound effect dogma is overblown. Just wean off your AI if worried but know that the serms will cover any issue (spike) even it it did occur.

    3) On the Nolvadex info page they recommend to run it in cycle as well....
    Is this accurate and what dose is recommended and does it affect how you'd run your AI?
    Sure, you can run it on cycle if gyno prone but there's no need to start with it without any issues being present. 10 mgs p/d would work if issues arise. Remember is normal to have nipple sensitivity, etc when hormones are in flux. It does not automatically mean gyno is developing or present.
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  33. #1313
    shadowdragon is offline New Member
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    Thank you for the fast response!

    follow up, why not to the front loading AI, or just it might tank your estro levels before your cycle begins?

    and then I've read the AI reference guide, so basically doesn't matter which AI you choose, just personal preference in how you feel you can manage it?

  34. #1314
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowdragon View Post
    Thank you for the fast response!

    follow up, why not to the front loading AI, or just it might tank your estro levels before your cycle begins?

    and then I've read the AI reference guide, so basically doesn't matter which AI you choose, just personal preference in how you feel you can manage it?
    the reason you don't want to front load an AI before going on cycle is that there is absolutely nothing at all wrong with estrogen getting elevated as total test levels elevate (this is the bodies natural process).. plenty guys don't even need an AI, let alone need to take it beforehand .
    Estrogen is just as needed as is testosterone . Keeping estgeon under control is the whole goal of an AI (or crashing estrogen low to get dry to step on stage)..

    I personally think too many guys abuse AI's and use them to keep estrogen in the low normal range (which is not really normal if test levels are supra-physiological) rather then use them to control excessive estrogen . Absolutely nothing wrong with blasting test for 8 weeks and letting estrogen be on the high end for those 8 weeks as well .. the AI is just there at low dose to keep estrogen in control, Not to keep estrogen in the low normal range.

    the idea of front loading an AI prior to a cycle takes the whole notion of OCD with estrogen to a whole new level


    go to a hardcore gym, I'll bet the big 280 pound bodybuilder did not use near as much AI's as a lot of you 165 pound guys new to AAS are trying to use..
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 11-14-2017 at 10:49 PM.

  35. #1315
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    the idea of front loading an AI prior to a cycle takes the whole notion of OCD with estrogen to a whole new level

    So true. Cracked me up.
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