12-08-2001, 09:01 PM #1Junior Member
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Serostim...... What Is Different About It?
SEROSTIM..... ? What is so different about it as compared with the other GH's, like Nutropin, Nutropin AQ, Humatrope, Genotropin, etc....??????????
All the other's need constant refridge, even before reconstitution. Serostim doesn't..... Somehow Serostim is fine at room temp prior to reconstition... They say potency isn't affected. Yet if you left Eli Lilly's out for 72 hours it will become biologically inactive...
Serostim is about 1/2 the cost of the other rHGH......? There is obviously a reason for that.... Lower or different quality?
I know a heavy weight pro (no longer competitive, but was ranked within the top 10 USA when he was).... He insists that Serostim doesn't give nearly the gains of the others. That is both his observation and that of many of his pro friends.... There has to be a reason for that....
LASTLY..... I reading the 2002 LIPPINCOTT'S Nursing Drug Guide. It talks about GH and lists out all the major one's, like I did above. It talks about indications, what they are used for etc... For pituitary dwarfism, it specifically says all EXCEPT SEROSTIM! NOW, obviously THERE MUST BE SOMETHING DIFFERENT ABOUT SEROSTIM..... WHAT IS IT?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!???? Sersostim is singled out as the cheaper variety used to treat aids patients.
Now, please don't start any flaming shit about how you have used Serostim and it rocks! I want medical input from anyone, or anyone that can get it. If you have used Nutropin AQ, or the like, and you are 110% sure it was properly stored, therefore having full potency, and it didn't give any better gains than Serostim, etc..... Feel free to comment.... I know there are plenty out there that have only experienced Serostim and like it. However, there is obviously something different about it. Resulting in cheaper price, ability to be kept at room temp, and for it to not be used as a treatment for pituitary dwarfism....
I MUST KNOW! ! ! !
12-15-2001, 11:52 AM #2Junior Member
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12-15-2001, 12:00 PM #3The Iron Game Guest
I cannot really comment on this but an interesting post worthy of an answer.........
12-15-2001, 12:19 PM #4Mike Guest
You may find these ineteresting....
HIV Study Shows No Muscle Growth From Serostim Growth Hormone
by Michael Mooney (July, 1999)
Serostim growth hormone (GH) may have value in therapy for lipodystrophy because of its potential for improving lipid oxidation (fat burning) in HIV, and while data from several studies by Mulligan and others show that GH can increase lean body mass (LBM), note that LBM does not always mean muscle tissue. The tissue compartments that make up LBM include muscle, bone, connective tissue, organs, and water. Several studies on HIV(-) subjects have shown that GH does not increase muscle tissue. (1-4) For details see the article called Serostim Growth Hormone: How Much Muscle Does It Really Build?
Does GH have a different effect in HIV(+) wasting subjects? Is there muscle growth in wasting HIV(+) subjects? This remains to be known conclusively, but the first study that actually analyzed what tissue was gained in HIV(+) subjects using MRI (magnetic resonance imaging), which is a much more critical method of analysis than bioelectric impedance analysis (BIA), showed that no muscle tissue was gained.
I underline that all the studies on GH used with HIV(+) people have documented changes in LBM, but none of these studies have actually told us which part of the LBM tissue is gained. So until now we have not had any confirmation that GH really increases muscle tissue.
And until now the studies have never used sophisticated measuring techniques like MRI to ascertain what is actually happening to the different tissues in the body.
This may have been purposeful on Serono's part; because they know that Serostim is inferior to anabolic steroids as an anabolic (muscle-building) agent to address wasting in HIV, it appears that Serono has kept this information from being uncovered in the details of the studies it creates and funds. But now the lack of a significant effect on muscle tissue begins to leak out.
Here is some of the relevant text of the report:
At the Cannes Conference data from a study by Donald P. Kotler, MD reported the results of an interim analysis of a 6-month open-label trial of the safety and efficacy of recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH) upon visceral adipose tissue, as determined by whole body MRI scanning, in HIV-infected men and women with documented changes in body fat distribution by clinical criteria. Therapy with 6mg of Serostim rhGH did not promote a significant change in skeletal muscle during the first 12 weeks of therapy in the 8 subjects for whom repeat MRI data were available. (Cost for 12 weeks was approximately $19,000 - my note.)
The political problem here is that Serostim GH has been promoted as an anabolic agent with claims by Serono sales people that GH builds muscle better than testosterone or anabolic steroids . Note that testosterone and anabolic steroids have been proven to be anabolic to muscle tissue, and testosterone has been shown to significantly increase muscle growth (5) at a far lower cost than GH. Testosterone costs between $100 and $200 per month for high dose injectable versions. Various anabolic steroids also cost much less than Serostim.
Because of the deception of Serono's sales people many HIV(+) people who have needed anabolic steroids to build their bodies and their health have been given Serostim GH by well-intentioned, but misinformed physicians.
Are Anabolic Steroids Safer Than Serostim Growth Hormone?
Additionally, while Serono sales people continue to say that GH is safer than anabolic steroids, this is not what the published data indicates so far.
While none of the studies on testosterone or anabolic steroids used for HIV have documented any significant health problems associated with their proper therapeutic use, Dr. Gabe Torres' data on his patients who experienced a reduction in symptoms of HIV-related lipodystrophy with Serostim growth hormone showed that at the standard 5 and 6 mg doses, 80 percent of his HIV patients experienced significant side effects, including elevated glucose, elevated pancreatic enzymes, or carpal tunnel syndrome. (It should be noted though, that anabolic steroids and testosterone decrease the body's own production of testosterone while they are being used, which can temporarily result in atrophied testicles in HIV(-) subjects. No one knows if testicular atrophy can become permanent in HIV(+) subjects, though.)
Elevated blood glucose can lead to diabetes and the problems that can result, including cardiovascular problems, eye damage, and neuropathy; elevated pancreatic enzymes can lead to pancreatitis; and carpal tunnel syndrome may require surgery. So far, Serostim growth hormone does not appear to be significantly safer than testosterone or anabolic steroids used for HIV therapy.
Serostim GH certainly does appear to have value for treating some of the symptoms of lipodystrophy, but I caution that the 4, 5, and 6 mg Serono doses are overdoses for many HIV(+) people, and lower doses between 0.5 mg and 3 mg per day should be considered by the physician.
Additionally, Serostim's price is out of reach of most HIV(+) people, if insurance will not cover it.
Serostim Human Growth Hormone Costs 300 Times More Than Cow GH
Bovine (cow) growth hormone (BGH), which is a very similar molecule and costs about the same to manufacture as human GH, costs farmers about $20 per month, while Serostim costs humans over $6000 per month at 6 mg per day. This indicates that Serono has an outrageous profit margin, and this is why insurance companies resist paying for Serostim.
Serono should lower their prices so that all HIV(+) people with lipodystrophy have a better chance of accessing Serostim.
On several occasions we have tested Serono's patient assistance programs for people who do not have insurance, and found that while some of the other companies that make anabolic agents, like Biotechnology General (Oxandrin), and UNIMED (Anadrol ) have very user-friendly patient assistance programs, Serono's program is one of the biggest hoop-jumping contests in AIDS, which means that very few HIV(+) people are provided with assistance from Serono.
1. Yarasheski KE, et al. Effect of growth hormone and resistance exercise on muscle growth in young men. Am J Physiol, 262(3 Pt 1):E261-7 1992 Mar.
2. Yarasheski KE, et al. Effect of resistance exercise and growth hormone on bone density in older men. Am J Physiol, 268(2 Pt 1):E268-76 1995 Feb.
3. Zachwieja JJ, et al. Does growth hormone therapy in conjunction with resistance exercise increase muscle force production and muscle mass in men and women aged 60 years or older? Source Phys Ther, 79(1):76-82 1999 Jan.
4. Yarasheski KE. Growth hormone effects on metabolism, body composition, muscle mass, and strength. Exerc Sport Sci Rev, 22():285-312 1994.Exerc Sport Sci Rev, 22():285-312 1994.
5. Bhasin S, et al. The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men [see comments] N Engl J Med, 335(1):1-7 1996 Jul 4.
6. Torres RA, et al. Treatment of dorsocervical fat pads (buffalo hump) and truncal obesity with Serostim (recombinant human growth hormone) in patients with AIDS maintained on HAART. XII International AIDS Conference, Geneva (1998) June 28-July 3. Abstract No. 32164.
Serostim Growth Hormone:
How Much Muscle Does It Really Build?
by Michael Mooney (March 1, 1999 - Updated April, 2000)
Q. I am confused. You say that Serostim growth hormone is not very anabolic, but it seems like everyone else thinks it is. It's supposed to be something that is used when steroids don't work for someone who has AIDS, so it must be more powerful as an anabolic hormone.
A. This is incorrect. Let's dig a little deeper and get to the truth. Serostim growth hormone is promoted by its manufacturer to address wasting in HIV. Since wasting is the loss of lean body mass that precedes death, this is an important effect. And growth hormone does increase lean body mass, but exactly what does this mean? Don't assume that lean body mass means muscle.
Several studies of HIV(-) subjects indicate that growth hormone does not increase the portion of the lean body mass (LBM) that is known as muscle, even though growth hormone does increase "lean body mass". Note that LBM describes several compartments of tissue that include muscle, connective tissue, bone, organs, and water, too. These studies found that the increase in LBM with growth hormone in HIV(-) subjects consists of tissue other than muscle. Actually the increase in LBM appears to be mostly water, with perhaps a little connective tissue, and some organ tissue, too. (It should be underlined that organ tissue, like muscle tissue, wastes in HIV, and rebuilding of organ tissue by growth hormone could be an important effect that may improve overall health and survival.)
1. Effect of growth hormone and resistance exercise on muscle growth in young men. Yarasheski KE; Campbell JA; Smith K; Rennie MJ; Holloszy JO; Bier DM. Am J Physiol, 262(3 Pt 1):E261-7 1992 Mar
In this study GH given at 2 to 4 times normal physiological levels (9 IU per day) did not produce significant muscle growth in HIV(-) young men who lifted weights. While there was an increase in LBM, this study showed that the LBM that was gained was basically not muscle, but water or other tissue.
Note that studies with anabolic steroids do show considerable muscle growth when given in doses that are this much higher than normal physiological doses. (See: Bhasin, S, et al. The effect of supraphysiological doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men. N Engl J Med (1996) 335(1):1-7, and Friedl, KE, et al. Comparison of the effects of high dose testosterone and 19-nortestosterone to a replacement dose of testosterone on strength and body composition in normal men. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol (1991) 40(4-6):607-612.
2. Effect of growth hormone and resistance exercise on muscle growth and strength in older men. Yarasheski KE; Zachwieja JJ; Campbell JA; Bier DM. Am J Physiol, 268(2 Pt 1):E268-76 1995 Feb
In this study there was also a lack of effect on muscle tissue, but in older men who lifted weights. The authors said: "The greater increase in fat free mass (FFM) with GH treatment may have been due to an increase in noncontractile protein and fluid retention." Note that "contractile protein" tissue is muscle, so "noncontractile" tissue could mean connective tissue like ligaments, or organs like kidneys.
3. Growth hormone effects on metabolism, body composition, muscle mass, and strength. Yarasheski KE. Exerc Sport Sci Rev, 22():285-312 1994
In this one the author said, "On the basis of the similar increases in muscle protein synthesis, muscle cross-sectional area, and muscle strength observed in placebo and GH-treated exercising young adults, it is doubtful that the nitrogen retention associated with daily GH treatment results in an increase in contractile protein, improved muscle function, strength and athletic performance."
While some people would question the validity of applying data gleaned from studies on HIV(-) subjects to HIV(+) subjects thinking that they must have very different responses to GH, anabolic response to GH in HIV(+) subjects has been described as being "comparable" to the HIV(-) subjects in her study by highly-respected Dr. Kathleen Mulligan of San Francisco General Hospital. (See: Anabolic effects of recombinant human growth hormone in patients with wasting associated with human immunodeficiency virus infection. Mulligan K, et al, J Clin Endo & Metab 1993;77(4): 956-962.)
GH's Real Value
In HIV(+) subjects we do have a somewhat different metabolism than the "normal" metabolism of someone who is HIV(-), and there is weak indication in some of the published data that a perhaps little of the LBM growth caused by growth hormone might actually be muscle growth in some HIV(+) subjects, but this has not been investigated in more depth, so this is still quite unclear.
Note that Serono, the manufacturer of Serostim has not allowed any study to be done of Serostim GH with exercising subjects. I assume that this is because they do not want people to know the truth -- they are trying to keep the issue of muscle growth confused so that they can sell more GH to people who have a false impression that Serostim increases muscle tissue or the effects of weight training on muscle tissue.
During the next two years we should see the publication of some studies with wasting HIV(+) people that will carefully analyze what kind of LBM is gained. The first information released from one of them did show that there was no muscle gained in HIV(+) people over 12 weeks. Read it at: HIV Study Shows No Muscle Growth From Serostim Growth Hormone.
While this might surprise some people because they believe that they have seen significant changes in the muscle tissue of friends who have used GH, consider that it is possible that GH's effect may actually only be that the person's muscle tissues hold more water so they look fuller, while the GH caused some loss of bodyfat, so the person's muscle have a better appearance. However, for its cost, these effects still don't make GH seem like an equitable compound.
It could also be that GH increases organ tissue, which may be a critical role that would improve survival in HIV. This needs to be studied though, and Serono has not funded any study that details this, perhaps important aspect.
If GH is shown to have little or no effect on muscle tissue growth or organ tissue under any circumstances, this wouldn't mean that GH has absolutely no value, as GH's effect on lipid oxidation (fat burning) may be its most important effect. But if it was proven to be true that GH promotes little or no muscle growth, then it shouldn't be used to try to grow muscle; anabolic steroids are proven to do that much more effectively.
GH should be used for GH replacement purposes, which means it should be part of the hormone "cocktails" that can address wasting or lipodystrophy (bodyfat redistribution syndrome). For someone who has wasted severely, sometimes growth hormone can effect a miraculous improvement that has been described as "life-saving." But this kind of effect can be caused by several things including improved hydration (water) in the muscles and the body, better burning of fat for energy, and an improvement in the health of organ tissues that are critical for overall health, like the kidneys or the heart.
It seems likely that GH would be better used in a lower replacement dose in combination with testosterone and perhaps an anabolic steroid, with the idea that these hormones could complement each other and become a "cocktail" that might have a better effect than any one of them alone could.
GH's place in addressing lipodystrophy appears to be mostly related to its role in adipocyte (fat cell) metabolism, which is an important part of possible treatments or treatment combinations for lipodystrophy. So consider GH for this use, but do not put your money on it doing what steroids can do to help you build up your arms, legs, or butt if they have wasted. Also consider that for whatever problem GH is used to address, the 4, 5, and 6 mg daily doses that Serono currently recommends cause side effects like joint aches and carpal tunnel syndrome in a majority of HIV(+) people because the doses are too high. (Most professional bodybuilders are cautious about using doses of GH greater than about 1.4 mg (~ 4 IU) because they know that they might suffer from severe joint aches.)
We have reports that HIV(+) people are experiencing a reduction in lipodystrophy symptoms like protease paunch with doses as low as 1 mg per day up to 3 mg per day without problems. Finding an appropriate dose is highly individual, though, so ask your doctor to help you find a lower dose that is effective but doesn't cause side effects.
Richard - A Seemingly Dramatic Response to hGH
We have also seen a few HIV-positive individuals who have a seemingly tremendous anabolic response to the use of high dose growth hormone, and much more so than they do to anabolic steroids. This can be deceptive.
For instance, one of the my close friends, Richard, who is 56 years old and has been extremely progressed in AIDS (several times near death), is an example of a person who appears to have a significant resistance to the effects of anabolic steroids, as steroids have not helped him gain as much lean body mass as some people do. In an attempt to help him gain weight his doctor put him on Serostim growth hormone and two weeks after he had started Serostim we were surprised to find that he had gained 18 pounds. (I even thought that I might have to re-assess my somewhat critical position on growth hormone.)
However, a few days into his third week he began to be overwhelmed by the problems he was having with side effects. He admitted that in his high hopes that growth hormone would be the magic bullet that it is advertised as he had down-played the fact that he had been experiencing extreme swelling and pain in his hands and other joints, numbness in his hands and arms when he slept, difficulty breathing when he climbed stairs and he was unable to sleep on his back because he felt like he was suffocating.
On examination his doctor found that most of the weight he had gained was water and determined that he was suffering from severe pulmonary edema (water in the lung tissues), so she immediately took him off of Serostim and admitted him to the hospital. After several critical medical procedures while he was in the hospital (he was almost given open-heart surgery) he recovered to live another day. His doctor said that it is unlikely that she would prescribe Serostim again.
I assert that this kind of situation can result from the use of the currently recommended 4, 5, and 6 mg doses that for most people are over-doses of growth hormone, and the fact that there is no preservative in Serostim's formulation, which deters people from lowering their dose to reduce the side effects. During the later part of 1998 we have had numerous reports of people solving this problem by mixing Serostim with Abbott bacteriostatic water instead of the sterile water that comes with Serostim. When bacteriostatic water is substituted, I am told that growth hormone will last for two weeks in the vial instead of 24 hours, as when the sterile water is used. Then the individual can ration out a lower daily growth hormone dose; one that does not produce side effects, but still produces beneficial effects. Ask your doctor to consider giving you a prescription for bacteriostatic water, and work with your doctor to find a dose that works for you.
12-15-2001, 12:24 PM #5Mike Guest
Serostim has always been under scrutiny by Sterno as to what clinical trials it is used in. Sterno has been very careful to make sure that no studies were done with 'exercising patients' so that the "anabolic effects" were not promoted. And in fact these don't exist. The reason that Serostim is not widely prescribed for hypopituitarism etc. is because Sterno has never bothered doing clinical studies to make this an approved use of Serostim. In fact Serostim DOES work for hypopituitarism. But since they have never formally studied this and passed it through the FDA they are not allowed to label it as an approved ussage for those disorders. Sterno has been very focused on studying against wasting and lipodystrophy (a disorder caused by the usage of protease inhibitors in AIDS patients)
I actually have a friend with hypopituitarism that has serostim prescribed to him and has found it relatively effective.
(BTW - just a side note - I have used serostim)
12-15-2001, 12:44 PM #6
so what about this pure bovine colustrum, do you think it will help in buildin muscle or not.
12-15-2001, 03:08 PM #7
Damn, Mike. Great Read! This should probably be moved to the educational threads section.
07-02-2003, 09:13 PM #8Banned
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hyOriginally Posted by Mike
what do you think about ansomone rHGH from china would you say it is better than most like serostim or what
07-03-2003, 01:48 AM #9
Well......Serono(not sterno...lol) makes 2 different GH products. Saizen is for the HRT market, and Serostim is for the immune deficiency market. They are the same, except Serostim is more concentrated. They are both highly effective.
No offence to Mike, but that cut and paste is old crap from ******. The author is clueless. rhGH is prescribed to immune deficient patients because it improves the immune system, not as an anabolic . GH is not a mass builder.....common knowledge. It is awesome as a changer of lean body composition. GH, with a proper steroid stack and insulin will take a bb'er to the next level after hitting the last plateau. Friggin Mooney would know that if he had read the research he cites.
Also, ALL rhGH is the same........human growth hormone (hGH) produced by recombinant DNA technology 191 amino acid residues and a molecular weight of 22,125 daltons. Otherwise it would not be human. No, equine or bovine shit won't work on humans.....different amino profile.
Ansomone is quite good, but you must get it on ice from the distributer or it is worthless.
07-08-2003, 03:35 PM #10Anabolic Member
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damn great read!!!
i saw that Saizen GH came in kit of 15ui and Serono GH at 128ui. which one is for HRT? thanks
06-01-2004, 10:49 PM #11New Member
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Hi! have 1 question, i recently purchased 3 boxes of serostim HGH. one box has just expired 04/30/04 just 30 days. Is it still usable or is it worthless? Thanks for your help. I have looked everywhere for an answer but no luck. Also how about expired steroids ? are they still any good if expired?
06-01-2004, 10:58 PM #12Originally Posted by robotechjair
Next time though, start a new thread rather than bumping one from the Clinton era.
06-02-2004, 10:19 PM #13New Member
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Sure. Thanks for the reply. It is hard to come by this stuff now days. at least the other 2 boxes have not expired.
06-02-2004, 10:22 PM #14New Member
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I am fairly new in this forum and fairly new to steroids . Just finish a mild cycle and gained 17 pouns of solid muscle. I am 5' 11" and weight about 203lbs with 10% bf. My ?? is that i have recently aquired 200 spa anavar pills. My source told me they are 5mg, but every book and web page tells me spa only makes 2.5 mg pills. Who is correct?
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