Need info about starting a cycle at a higher body fat %

**Diesel1985** · 08-28-2014, 01:46 AM

Hello,

I have been doing a lot of research about Anabolics, and yes before anyone says it I know I still have a lot more to learn, hence me posting here.

My Stats
I'm 28 years old
5'10"
250 lbs,
Body fat is probably between 20%-25%

Background
I have been strength training off and on for the last 10 years, for a while I got down to 8% body fat and weight 260 lbs, but I got injured at work and that really stopped my progress for a long time due to surgeries and recovery, that was in 2009-2010. I lifted casually ever since my recovery not trying to re-injure myself, last summer I took on a very hard training regiment, lifting daily, eating mostly clean and supplementing, I put on muscle mass and gained quickly then hit a wall for a long time. Due to work I kept traveling and didn't have time to train like I wanted and my diet was poor, so I put on some weight. I've still got decent definition on my shoulders, biceps, and legs, but I do have a gut that I am not proud of and have been working on with clean eating and exercise. I have been hitting the gym 5 days a week for the last 8 months, and I am strong with my lifts, but I've hit a plateau I can't seem to get past and this gut is ever persistent.

My Goal
I am trying to develop strength and some more size to me, but also want to shed this body fat. I am not trying to get huge for a competition or anything, but I can't seem to get past this wall and I wish to be strong and lean like I used to be.

My Gear
I see everyone has their opinions on what to take for a first cycle and how to do it, what I have is Sustabol 350 and Tamoxifen 20 mg. I know this isn't ideal but it is all I have to work with for now. Still doing research on dosage and cycles as well as post-cycle-therapy, but mainly I have 2 questions before I consider starting....

My Questions
What are the risks associated with starting a cycle at a higher body fat percentage?
Will the increased testosterone levels increase my metabolism so I can finally get rid of this persistent waist bulge?

Thanks for taking the time to read this and I'll be looking forward to your responses.

**kronik420** · 08-28-2014, 01:59 AM

you will probably just end up getting fatter..

and you will have a hard time controlling that E2..

it will basically just be a waste of your time, money, and health.

**Diesel1985** · 08-28-2014, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by kronik420

you will probably just end up getting fatter..

and you will have a hard time controlling that E2..

it will basically just be a waste of your time, money, and health.

Probably? I appreciate your response, but what are you basing that off of? I do not claim to know everything, but strength training burns more fat than cardiovascular exercises and testosterone is directly linked to muscle growth and repair, so using that information I would assume running a cycle would increase my metabolism and help burn it faster. But I am coming here seeking information, so if you have direct knowledge or a source that would back up what you said would you please share? I'm looking for scientific/educated responses as to the what, how, and why of things.

Like I said in my original posting, I am still doing tons of research, but I can't really find anything on this particular topic.

**kronik420** · 08-28-2014, 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by Diesel1985

Probably? I appreciate your response, but what are you basing that off of? I do not claim to know everything, but strength training burns more fat than cardiovascular exercises and testosterone is directly linked to muscle growth and repair, so using that information I would assume running a cycle would increase my metabolism and help burn it faster. But I am coming here seeking information, so if you have direct knowledge or a source that would back up what you said would you please share? I'm looking for scientific/educated responses as to the what, how, and why of things.

Like I said in my original posting, I am still doing tons of research, but I can't really find anything on this particular topic.

because i've done this...

**kronik420** · 08-28-2014, 03:14 AM

and if i were to do a cycle at a higher bf% it would be a cutting cycle......

**qscgugcsq** · 08-28-2014, 06:47 AM

If you eat on maintenance or lower you wont get fat...

BF% wont make you magically get fat on test...

It will help you shed some fat off due to the anabolic and androgenic property of testosterone .

However you will be prone to excess aromatization so BW will be needed to control your E2(which can stop you from losing fat...)
And you are more likely to suffer.from High blood pressure.

If you control your E2 and blodd pressure right.
Their is no other danger with cycling being fatter.

At that BF% I would focus on cutting...
Recomps are tricky and IMO it would require more than just test...(which is not advised)

Cut first bulk after.

After 4 weeks on test if your Blood.pressure is ok,You could add T3 which will assist you to burn more fat.

But once again diet is the key.

Good luck

**Diesel1985** · 08-28-2014, 10:32 AM

Thanks.

So being prone to excess aromatization, just taking Tamoxifen would not be sufficient to help stop that?

As for cutting vs bulking, I'm working on a balanced lifting and cardio routine, as well as supplementation and nutrition to do both at once, I know you get more results if you focus on one in paticular but it's also harder on the body to do that.

Like I said, I'm not looking to compete and get insanely shredded, I've just reached a strength plateau and I have some persistant weight that is being a bitch to lose.

I am eating clean and watching my calorie intake as well as my portion sizes, I'm not 100% on starting this cycle yet because I do need to do more research and educate myself a lot more, but right now I'm just trying to find out if running a cycle of Sustabol would give me that PUSH I need to get past this plateau and amp up my metabolism so I can lean out like i want.

Thoughts?

**SEOINAGE** · 08-28-2014, 10:35 AM

Waste of quality AAS in this situation. They are so much more effective at building muscle. Sure you could get bigger and stronger if you just start now, but then you'll lose it off cycle trying to bring the body fat down. Any strength you may lose during an unassisted cut will be brought back with ease on your cycle. You need to cycle properly as well. Test only first cycle with proper dose AI and HCG , then proper pct.

You want to be able to have the freedom to eat to build muscle on your cycle. for that reason I would suggest low teens minimum before starting, and that isn't even counting all the health problems that could arise. It has always been a battle for me, losing too much size and strength to get rid of bodyfat, but sometimes you just need to let things go for a while. I competed in powerlifting three times last year, two of which I was cutting hard, it wasn't till the start of this year I decided to not compete for a while, I lost some strength initially as I went to quite the extremes at times, but a little time with a reasonable diet and strength came back fast. It took hiring someone to convince me to make that change.

**qscgugcsq** · 08-28-2014, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Diesel1985

Thanks.

So being prone to excess aromatization, just taking Tamoxifen would not be sufficient to help stop that?

As for cutting vs bulking, I'm working on a balanced lifting and cardio routine, as well as supplementation and nutrition to do both at once, I know you get more results if you focus on one in paticular but it's also harder on the body to do that.

Like I said, I'm not looking to compete and get insanely shredded, I've just reached a strength plateau and I have some persistant weight that is being a bitch to lose.

I am eating clean and watching my calorie intake as well as my portion sizes, I'm not 100% on starting this cycle yet because I do need to do more research and educate myself a lot more, but right now I'm just trying to find out if running a cycle of Sustabol would give me that PUSH I need to get past this plateau and amp up my metabolism so I can lean out like i want.

Thoughts?

... Tamoxifen wont do shit to control estrogens... You need arimidex /aromasin for that.

Like I said recomp are tricky and if you dont have sufficient knowledge you will fail miserably.
Forget the recomp and focus on cutting.
If its your first time.on roid you can expect to.build a bit of muscle while.cutting. And still gain strengh. Of course if you cut with 2000cals.of deficit dont expect muscle gain...

**XxAndreaxX** · 08-29-2014, 10:14 AM

like they said, tamox only protects you against gyno. E2 will rise anyways.
If you are fat, and with 25% BF you're fat, you'll bloat up like a baloon.
There are people concerned about taking test at 12% BF and loose definition because of that, imagine with 25%.
Bad Idea, don't take any test unless you're at least 15% or below. About health, you won't probably die, I have many fat mates doing crazy types of cycles and never die. I wouldn't be concerned about health, I'd be concerned about the waste of time, gear and getting fatter.

**Diesel1985** · 08-29-2014, 11:13 AM

Ok, I'll look into getting some Arimidex then.

Thank you guys for the responses and info, this is why I joined the forum. I was hoping that doing a cycle would push my metabolism into overdrive if I watched my calorie intake so I would really cut my BF % down while increasing my muscle density. So it looks like I'll be waiting for a bit to start my cycle.

I'll start researching a cutting stack then and work on dropping my BF to a much lower first.

**michael30** · 08-29-2014, 12:50 PM

Op i learned the hard way, cycling at really high bf imho doesnt help with much. I think you will be surprised that you wont shed as much fat as you think at that high of bodyfat(from just aas alone). I started 8yrs ago at (328lbs and started cycling at 275lbs when i found out i had low t. I eventually got to 210lbs but if i could do it over again i would of dropped all the fat before cycling. Also if you do end up taking it anyway i strongly urge you to do a cutting cycle only. If you try a recomp at 25% bf i think you will be very unhappy with your results.

**itiswhatitis** · 08-29-2014, 01:21 PM

Look at it like this ... Before I knew what I was doing I was at 301lbs fat boy style ... I was at the gym doing abs because I assumed I would burn that fat ... All I really did was gain muscle there and make me look even fatter .... You can gain muscle all day but if there's high bf% you will never see it anyways ... Diet down first then go from there ... You will be much happier with the results ... In my opinion overweight people actually have it better off when it comes to gaining muscle and loosing fat ... Natural skinny people have to work much harder at both ...when it bigger u burn fat faster and chances are u have quite a bit of muscle underneath ...

**GGot FFina?** · 08-29-2014, 09:05 PM

Based on what you described in your original post, I wouldn't do it.

The reason i would recommend against it is because you stated you have been woking out for 8 months now and were not able to lean out naturally on your own yet. This tells me that the end result will be, you looking about the same, just a little stronger. If this is what you want out of this cycle, then by all means, go for it.

It sounds to me like you want to drop your BF % and no cycle will do this for you. What a cycle will do, is make you stronger, or allow you to retain more muscle, while cutting back on you BF%. This is exactly what i do every year, this year included. I start at about 23% BF before the summer, and jump on a cycle and a diet similar to the Keto diet, which i tuned to my own body. Starting a cycle on a high % BF works great for me because the end result is me retaining more muscle than i would have with out the cycle.

I would strongly not recommend this for you though since you are showing difficulty getting down on your own and the end result will not be pretty and will disappoint you.

Instead i would start cutting asap, once you see you accomplished getting down to 15%, and you see you are able to successfully cut, you can then start you cycle and continue dropping BF% till your goal is reached..

BTW, i'm not doubting you but you said you were 260 @ 8% BF??? If you could, please post this photo. I would love to see this since you must have looked incredibly amazing!!!

Good luck dude. Hope you succeed!!

**pushit_05** · 08-29-2014, 10:45 PM

I dont understand why people hate on higher BF levels and AAS. Look at most strongmen, powerlifters, and BBers in the off season. All of these people are cycling and setting huge records lifts. Your body is more likely to build muscle and strength when your body isn't trying to fight for energy. I wouldn't say push it higher than 25% for the average person but run some dex at .125-.25eod (check e2 for sure if you can) and it should be under control.

The more muscle you have the more you will burn body fat faster. I was talking with a powerlifter at my gym the other day who basically just runs a test/tren cycle and that is his cut at maintenance lol. For inexperienced lifters, yes you should know how to cut down to a desired BF level but if you know how to do that and just want to crush your goals, cycle up imo. Test only is not the way to go for cutting but if you set up nutrition correctly it will certainly start you in the right direction.

**tarmyg** · 08-30-2014, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Diesel1985

...strength training burns more fat than cardiovascular exercises...

That is one bizarre blanket statement based on absolutely nothing.

**tarmyg** · 08-30-2014, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by pushit_05

The more muscle you have the more you will burn body fat faster.

Bro science again. Please read up on that. Several sites with actual calculations on this stuff and unless you compare me and Ronnie Coleman it makes zero difference.

**pushit_05** · 08-30-2014, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by tarmyg

Bro science again. Please read up on that.

You can't say bro science and then respond in the same manner...There are a number of reasons why having larger amounts of lean body mass will equate to faster fat burning abilities. I'll use the example of someone with 150lbs LBM vs someone else with 200lbs both trying to lose 10% body fat :

- ATP > Glucose (4 cals) > Muscle (4 cals) > Fat (9 cals): this is the order in which the body will break down compounds in search for energy. ATP is the most readily available with stored glucose coming in second. Glucose is primarily stored in muscle so the more muscle you have the more glucose you can store. Muscles control all movement in the body and the greater their size the greater their possible ability for output. Larger muscle = more energy = capable of more work being accomplished. Lifting 405 for 10 rep requires much more energy vs lifting it once. If glucose and ATP stores are used up that only leaves the break down of either muscle or fat for energy (both of which will turn into glucose and then ATP but its a slow process). If you have a diet that focuses on muscle sparing (and who doesn't) the rate of fat oxidation exceeds fat storage and the person capable of more work will break down more fat to keep up with the load. This process occurs over weeks and months, not so much days. In case of cardio as well. It takes more calories to move a larger muscle than it takes to move a smaller one.

- Increased metabolic rate with more muscle mass. Fat storage is easy where as building and retaining muscle is a complex process. More calories are burned building and retaining muscle than storing fat. Resting or activity are all caused by muscles and muscles cannot function without calories for energy. People with lots of muscle mass tend to run warmer than your average person. This increased heat is expelled by the body caused by calorie expenditure from functioning muscles. Obese people tend to run warm as well but slightly less because fat doesn't require as much energy to operate or store.

- Calorie partitioning is another benefit of more muscle mass (which is what the body is likely to do with the food you intake). The human body prefers to store body fat vs building muscle (9cals vs 4cals) because we have evolved through periods of food scarcity. Its in our DNA to survive and we can live much longer on our fat stores then on our built up muscle mass. When we diet properly our bodies will burn up more calories favoring muscle mass over fat storage. This one relies more on diet but again the more muscle that is there the more calories are required by the body to create and build (this can come from both stored and dietary calories). With a proper diet you can force your fat stores to feed your muscles energy and the more muscle you have the more energy will be required.

While going from 8% down to 6-5% is difficult for really anyone of any body type. Going from 20% down to 10% will be a much faster process for someone who has a strong and well developed muscle structure. I look forward to your non-broscience rebuttal.

**tarmyg** · 08-30-2014, 07:04 AM

Ok, I really should have been less dismissive and more informative in my response and for that I apologies. As muscle does burn more than fat the difference is so small that for most people it really makes no difference at all. Muscle tissue burns roughly 7 to 10 calories/pound per day, compared to 2 to 3 calories/pound per day for fat. Replacing a pound of fat with a pound of muscle will yield about four to six more calories a day.

Now, you say

ATP > Glucose (4 cals) > Muscle (4 cals) > Fat (9 cals)

which I do not understand at all. You are saying muscle will be used as energy before fat?

**tice1212** · 08-30-2014, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Diesel1985

I do not claim to know everything, but strength training burns more fat than cardiovascular exercises.

What did i just read.. Clearly sir u don't know sh*t Haha

Originally Posted by kronik420

you will probably just end up getting fatter..

and you will have a hard time controlling that E2..

it will basically just be a waste of your time, money, and health.

Solid advice

**fit2bOld** · 08-30-2014, 07:57 AM

"I did not have time to train"

Your words above until you change the conversation around this you will continue to do just as you have in the past.

Fitness is a choice and I'm sure there were choices that were being made that could have been time dedicated to fitness and proper nutrition.

This will be the most effective way to your goals.

**pushit_05** · 08-30-2014, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by tarmyg

Now, you say which I do not understand at all. You are saying muscle will be used as energy before fat?

If proper diet is not in place to spare muscle mass then yes. Its much easier for the body to break down muscle fibers than it is for fat molecules (4cals vs 9 cals). This is by our biological design since we can live much longer with higher body fat vs high muscle mass during periods of starvation. In todays age we generally dont run into starvation but our evolution has not caught up yet. Our bodies are always in either an anabolic state (adding) or catabolic state (reducing). When adding we add muscle and fat, when reducing we reduce fat and muscle. We manipulate calorie partitioning to maximize muscle/minimize fat gain during anabolism and we maximize fat loss/minimize muscle conversion during catabolism.