1st Cycle and HRT

**Juced_porkchop** · 07-28-2015, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by rhoag

I did consider that. But being the egotistical, want instant results, impulsive guy that I am thought I would give it a try. Seriously though everything I read tren is the holy grail and will make you hard and lean. I have increased my test and have seen some results. I have read many of your post (non cardio!!) and respect your opinion. Why do you feel tren should not be the route and if I decided to do a test only cycle what would you recommend I increase test to? Keeping in mind I am currently at the upper range of the scale.

you should see the hell alot go through with tren sides... i dont even get it bad and i pretty much say F tren now... i say up the test. maybe add in maste for 12 weeks with it.

**NACH3** · 07-28-2015, 09:00 AM

G

Originally Posted by rhoag

Almost done with this cycle and it couldn't come soon enough. Physically I feel great and look better than I have in years. But, I am angry and have a black cloud over my head. I have been married 35 years and my wife is kinda a bitch. Even our kids ask me how I managed to stay married to her this long. They don't know everything. Anyway, in the past few weeks I have not been able to shake this bad mood I am in. Work has sucked because of a new boss, but mainly I am pissed because my sex drive is off the chart and I am obsessing over a certain aspect of our sex life. Well, the wife just ain't having anything to do with it. I am lucky to get it 3 times a week when I need it 3 times a day.
Pics from last week 54 years and 1 day old. Don't know what I will do after this cycle to keep moving forward.

Looking great, Rhoag! DLD hit it on the money! hows your strength? Man I gotta run tren lol(in time) getting good results from Nandrolone still... But it's coming up! Haha

Your abs look much better, along w/everything! Chest way more developed - arms big and nicely shaped - well done big guy!

**bethdoth** · 07-28-2015, 12:01 PM

I was amazed at the increase in strength. My pumps are unbelievable...almost to the point they are painful. My chest has always been one of my better muscle groups so I focused on shoulders (rear delts) and arms. My tennis elbow is also gone! The change in my build was pretty fast. I have had a couple guys at the gym notice and ask if I was juicing. Just told them I increased my HRT levels to that of a 25 year old.

**NACH3** · 07-28-2015, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by rhoag

I was amazed at the increase in strength. My pumps are unbelievable...almost to the point they are painful. My chest has always been one of my better muscle groups so I focused on shoulders (rear delts) and arms. My tennis elbow is also gone! The change in my build was pretty fast. I have had a couple guys at the gym notice and ask if I was juicing. Just told them I increased my HRT levels to that of a 25 year old.

Nice answer! It does suck tho - it seems like most sessions anymore someone is coming up asking me the same lol - I don't say anything - or go w/the hrt statement!

Well this blast sure did serve you very well! Great work! You look awesome, man! Keep crushin it -

I think maybe running var while on your TRT would definitely solidify your gains... Or just up your cardio if you just go back to hrt dose! Many options - what else were you thinkin?

**bethdoth** · 07-29-2015, 06:57 AM

At this point I am not sure where to go next. I have maybe two more injection left then I am done (really hard to give it up). I need some advise from the experienced members on this forum. I know I want to let things settle for a bit and just go back to my normal HRT 140mg subq test cyp every 3.5, continue stane, low dose Cia and NAC. Should I do another week of caber after ending cycle?
I have an appointment next week to get 1 pint of blood drawn. Then I will wait about 3 weeks and schedule my annual physical with the VA. If that blood work comes back ok then I will get labs from my regular doc that monitors my HRT. In the mean time I plan to start doing my fasted HIIT in the morning again and then lift after work, also adjust diet down a bit. I feel I could probably get pretty close to my goal of looking like the guy above, just a bit smaller version.
My other questions would be how long off cycle before doing another? Since the low dose tren /test cycle worked pretty good, should I do the same cycle again or try something else?

**NACH3** · 07-29-2015, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by rhoag

At this point I am not sure where to go next. I have maybe two more injection left then I am done (really hard to give it up). I need some advise from the experienced members on this forum. I know I want to let things settle for a bit and just go back to my normal HRT 140mg subq test cyp every 3.5, continue stane, low dose Cia and NAC. Should I do another week of caber after ending cycle?
I have an appointment next week to get 1 pint of blood drawn. Then I will wait about 3 weeks and schedule my annual physical with the VA. If that blood work comes back ok then I will get labs from my regular doc that monitors my HRT. In the mean time I plan to start doing my fasted HIIT in the morning again and then lift after work, also adjust diet down a bit. I feel I could probably get pretty close to my goal of looking like the guy above, just a bit smaller version.
My other questions would be how long off cycle before doing another? Since the low dose tren/test cycle worked pretty good, should I do the same cycle again or try something else that doesn't make me feel like I want a divorce everyday?

Id start tapering off your caber(though I use prami and is easier to taper w/the liquid) I did notice after my last 19nor cycle I did take the prami at a lower dose until it cleared - that worked for me but BW is the way to go(if you can get some after the clearing process(w/ace is really short 3 days) - say a couple wks after stopping the caber try and pull some PROLACTIN bloods?!

It's best to take the same time on as off to let your body return to homeostasis(I know it's tough) then if BW shows your g2g then you could blast again!

If the tren was a lil to harsh(as sides and aggression go) try NPP or deca it's a great compound - hardens fills you out strength(not like tren I'm assuming)

But the sides are way less from what I've heard(not run tren yet) but its another great compound... Add d-Bol/or drol(pulse it throughout or IMO I like backloading orals - but if running longer esters maybe a kicker - var is great for pumps and will help lower bf if diet is on point... I wouldn't do made unless your @ 10% or even lower really.... Many options! If in a cal deficit - Primo(legit) is great for leaning out and building LBM!

**edmondle** · 07-29-2015, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by rhoag

Almost done with this cycle and it couldn't come soon enough. Physically I feel great and look better than I have in years. But, I am angry and have a black cloud over my head. I have been married 35 years and my wife is kinda a bitch. Even our kids ask me how I managed to stay married to her this long. They don't know everything. Anyway, in the past few weeks I have not been able to shake this bad mood I am in. Work has sucked because of a new boss, but mainly I am pissed because my sex drive is off the chart and I am obsessing over a certain aspect of our sex life. Well, the wife just ain't having anything to do with it. I am lucky to get it 3 times a week when I need it 3 times a day. Pics from last week 54 years and 1 day old. Don't know what I will do after this cycle to keep moving forward.

Oh.... U look better than most ppl in my GYM?

**bethdoth** · 07-29-2015, 10:16 AM

Thanks edmondle! Holly shit Nach3 you just gave me a huge homework assignment to research other options. I do love the results of tren at this point. But, I almost ripped my bosses head off during a meeting today. When I got back to my office I checked my blood pressure and it was 161/99 and this was after an hour to cool off. I am also interested to see how much of my gains I will be able to keep?? Right now my focus will be getting a G2G bloodwork and then go from there. I have a friend that swears by winny?
Thanks for the input.

**NACH3** · 07-29-2015, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by rhoag

Thanks edmondle! Holly shit Nach3 you just gave me a huge homework assignment to research other options. I do love the results of tren at this point. But, I almost ripped my bosses head off during a meeting today. When I got back to my office I checked my blood pressure and it was 161/99 and this was after an hour to cool off. I am also interested to see how much of my gains I will be able to keep?? Right now my focus will be getting a G2G bloodwork and then go from there. I have a friend that swears by winny?
Thanks for the input.

Well we're gonna try and let your aggression calm down a bit

At least your boss is alive lol - I know how you feel - I'm an aggressive person as well(w/out gear) - however it's a lil bit easier knowing this(was it more so the tren or do you have a quick temper(like a switch) - at least your aware! That's hlf the battle...

I think you'll keep just about all your gains(diet dictates) and your on HRT so it's easier for you w/out the loss of T levels! Glad I could give some pointers for you to go off of! Take er easy buddy

**tectime** · 07-29-2015, 03:31 PM

Right! ^^^ good advice Nach as always! And Op with being able to stay on hrt doses and remaining hardcore at the gym those gains are going to stay. Great job also brother ! Actually fantastic job man ! Chill for a little period just to let the tren monster calm then a nice tes/deca blast might be the ticket. Again man good work !

**bethdoth** · 08-03-2015, 07:49 AM

All done with cycle, last injection of 50mg was on July 30th and stopped T3 on Aug 1st. Now to do a good post cycle, change diet and workouts. I plan to take caber one more time on Wed, give blood this week, keep test at HRT 80mg subq E3.5days, 12.5mg Stane ED, and 5mg CIA ED.
will now go calorie deficit of 500 Calories, increase cardio and try to get BF very low 11% before I start another cycle in the fall. Fall cycle is still to be researched.

**Joco71** · 08-03-2015, 08:05 AM

Rhoag what are your thoughts on the t3. Do you feel it played a role or you would have had same results regardless. Thanks!

**bethdoth** · 08-03-2015, 08:27 AM

I'm not sure because I was only taking 50mcg daily. From what I understand T3: A complete guide to cycling T3 and how it works normal production when on tren is stopped. Tren is what yields results along with training and food intake. With all the sides from Tren I am not sure if the T3 did anything, but if I wasn't taking it would I have maybe felt worse??? At times I would get very warm but that is also a side of tren (night sweets). Sorry I can't tell you either way, but like I said the tren and test are the main players and I feel the T3, caber, stane are all just for managing sides. I am no expert only my first cycle. Maybe the pro's will jump in here.

**NACH3** · 08-03-2015, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by rhoag

I'm not sure because I was only taking 50mcg daily. From what I understand T3: A complete guide to cycling T3 and how it works normal production when on tren is stopped. Tren is what yields results along with training and food intake. With all the sides from Tren I am not sure if the T3 did anything, but if I wasn't taking it would I have maybe felt worse??? At times I would get very warm but that is also a side of tren (night sweets). Sorry I can't tell you either way, but like I said the tren and test are the main players and I feel the T3, caber, stane are all just for managing sides. I am no expert only my first cycle. Maybe the pro's will jump in here.

I've never ran T3 but have a full bottle lol... But I'd imagine it would've made you run even hotter(w/tren as the night sweats are a common side) - on another note I get the sweats from just test(always have)

Rhoag... What type of training were you doing while on? In my scenario I do HIT(heavy) so when it's time to pullback(after cycle especially) I do more S/Sing and keep w/o's short and sweet - intensity should come down a little (ex for me from reg HIT) - our CNS needs to recover from the assault we just put it thru lol! Try getting in and out of the gym in 30-45min the latter being the max

Have you looked into any other alternatives to your next blast?? FYI I'd stay clear of winny(great compound but really fvks w/your joints and body imho)

**Joco71** · 08-03-2015, 08:55 AM

Thanks Rhoag and Nach just trying to see when people have results from T3 use, like you Nach I have a Couple of unopened bottles of T3. When I feel like I know enough about it and feel it will be an asset I will then use hopefully to aid in lower BF% as this is my own personal struggle as it is with many. I need to just grow a set of balls and eat super clean but keep having trouble with consistency. I will get it right eventually.LOL

**bethdoth** · 08-03-2015, 09:35 AM

Like I said I am no pro I only do what I feel is working for me. I have been doing basically one muscle group a day for an hour. Lets say chest day I would warm up stretch, then for each exercise 4 sets (failure starting at about the 10th rep, keep increasing weight till failure about 5th rep then drop set last two sets), flat bench, dumbbell incline flys, peck deck, pull overs, flat single arm dumbbell press, push-ups with 30lb sand bag etc...
I plan to do HIIT on the elliptical fasted about 3 times a week, change my lifting to the standard chest/bi's, back tri, legs, shoulders, and two dedicated 30 minute ab workouts twice a week. Workouts will be less exercises, maybe cut back to three sets each, still going to failure 8-10 ..little less weight let my old joints have a break.

**NACH3** · 08-03-2015, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by rhoag

Like I said I am no pro I only do what I feel is working for me. I have been doing basically one muscle group a day for an hour. Lets say chest day I would warm up stretch, then for each exercise 4 sets (failure starting at about the 10th rep, keep increasing weight till failure about 5th rep then drop set last two sets), flat bench, dumbbell incline flys, peck deck, pull overs, flat single arm dumbbell press, push-ups with 30lb sand bag etc...
I plan to do HIIT on the elliptical fasted about 3 times a week, change my lifting to the standard chest/bi's, back tri, legs, shoulders, and two dedicated 30 minute ab workouts twice a week. Workouts will be less exercises, maybe cut back to three sets each, still going to failure 8-10 ..little less weight let my old joints have a break.

Sounds good - but in bold(not the ab routine) - why change your routine?? What built the muscle will keep the muscle! I agree w/everything else you've mentioned(and HIIT will help aid in lowering bf) but IMO, you just made great gains w/one BP a day -- why change it now if you've got the results you did.... If it works on cycle it'll work off cycle! Bes of luck and keep this thread going so we help you w/any future planning -

~Nach

**bethdoth** · 08-04-2015, 07:21 AM

Nach,
Time man... there is not enough time in the day. My goal would be to get my BF% as low as I can before my next cycle. This means 40-45 minutes cardio, calorie deficit proper nutrition, and still lifting to maintain muscle. I suppose I have enough time most days to do a quick 20 minute lift on one muslce group then cardio.
My timing on the last cycle was bad. I had 2 camping trips in the middle that consumed 14 days of my cycle, where it is impossible to workout and I drink a lot. My next cycle will be planned better and i hope to get more results. I may increase tren from 50mg EOD to 75 EOD would depend on sides if I stay there.

**bethdoth** · 08-11-2015, 11:07 AM

Ok post cycle ... been 13 days since last shot of vitamin T (tren ). My pumps are still very good at the gym, have not lost any strength yet, but do feel tired and had about a week of depression. I am back 100% to just HRT last caber was Sunday. Giving blood today... will see what that does, it will be interesting to see what my hemoglobin is at.

**Juced_porkchop** · 08-11-2015, 01:04 PM

I would just rec blast th test at around 500mg ew for around 12 weeks and go back to hrt. maybe add in maste or deca for blast

**bethdoth** · 08-12-2015, 06:57 AM

Right now I just want to get back to go to go blood work, then stay there till about Oct 15th. Then do a 10 week cycle. I should have added in my above post that the last few days I have zero energy. I wonder what my T3 is doing? Is my normal production coming back? Is my test low? I will soon find out, I just wanted to be off cycle a couple weeks before doing labs.
one last thing I have noticed. When on cycle my normal day to day aches and pains from living my life went away. Now my tennis elbow feels like it is coming back, did a back workout Monday and the middle of my upper back hurts again. Not the good hurt from lifting.

**bethdoth** · 08-13-2015, 07:44 AM

I think post Tren is worse than when on it!!! I am not sure if it is all because of the tren, but I sure am moody, not feeling happy, it almost feels like a mid-life crisis and I want to change my whole life. New job new wife new everything.....Maybe it is!

**tectime** · 08-13-2015, 09:51 AM

[QUOTE="rhoag"]I think post Tren is worse than when on it!!!

Yes indeed I have to agree. When on tren bulletproof when first coming off only bullet resistant.

**bethdoth** · 08-17-2015, 11:29 AM

I was reading a post from another member, where the vets were telling him he was to high of Body Fat to be on cycle with tren , because increased body fat equals increased sides. I feel my gains during this process were ok despite my crappy cycle. I did jump start my cycle by deceasing body fat from 17% to 15% (according to calipers) before starting. Then I had the prostate issue (prostattis) and stopped. I have no idea if it was coincidence or caused by the tren, or the fact that I was doing subQ? Once cleared I ran a kinda crappy cycle. I kept my test close to HRT levels 160mg week and started my tren really low for 2 weeks 30mg EOD. Once I didn't seem to have any issues with the prostate I went to my original plan of 50mg EOD for 4 weeks then 60mg EOD for the last 2 weeks. Here is a before dropping Bodyfat pic and end of 8 week cycle. Yes I know the after is after working out and the before is a Sunday morning.
My next cycle will be planned better...no 10 day camping trips in the middle etc....

**kelkel** · 08-17-2015, 02:01 PM

Great progress!

**TheTaxMan** · 08-17-2015, 02:19 PM

Excellent gains well done
Inspired

**bigdil511** · 08-17-2015, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by SteveMcGee1987

Excellent gains well done Inspired

Same here makes me ashamed I'm 20 years younger and look nowhere as good. I'm gonna use you for some motivation.

**bobtail** · 08-17-2015, 03:48 PM

Just got to jump in and say your looking good, man! What was your ending weight?

**bethdoth** · 08-18-2015, 10:33 AM

I was kinda amazed at the whole thing. Started in mid Feb at 218/219 went as low as 203 just before jumping tren to 50mg EOD ended at 208. I would add anyone doing a first or any cycle...listen to the vets. Like I said I feel I could have gotten more gains if I would have planned better. If my first attempt wouldn't have been cut short by the prostate issue I would not of had a 10 day drinkfest in the middle of my cycle.

Thanks for all the compliments. Maybe at age 55 I can be bigger, stronger, and leaner. It's kinda funny... I do push-ups a lot for a reason. Young guys always seem to want to challenge me to push-ups when I am at a festival or some place and not wearing a shirt. When I do my push-ups (at the end of a workout) I put a 30 pound sandbag across my upper back and go till I am shaking normally about 48-50, then I flip it off and continue till I am shaking again, then I drop to my knees and do them like a girl till shaking. Well, I have it so I can crank out about 75 on a normal day. Last young guy dropped at 31 I did 72.

**bethdoth** · 08-20-2015, 11:29 AM

3 weeks since last injection. I have been feeling pretty much back to normal. BP back to my normal high of 138/84 pulse 64, sex drive back to once a day vise 3 times a day, mood fine, pumps at the gym not as good, strength still good though. IMHO things went back to normal quicker after giving blood.
Kinda miss being an out of control muscle head! LOL
Annual VA physical is Sept 9th and I will get full labs then. That will be close to the 6 week mark. I hope everything is settled back in to normal. I have not decided on my next cycle. It appears that a lot like test/deca cycles.

**bethdoth** · 08-20-2015, 11:52 AM

After reading about Deca it appears the sides at 400mg a week are not to bad. I know I would have to continue stane, hcg but what about T3 and caber with deca?

**bethdoth** · 08-21-2015, 07:02 AM

Wow there is a lot of info out there.... kickstarts, pulse, stacking deca dbol test etc ... I want to keep this simple and with moderate dosing protocol to hopefully minimum sides with good gains. I am pretty dedicated to my nutritional intake and training, also I am not looking to be huge, just a bit bigger and cut.
I did learn a lot from my first cycle and hope to do better with the second one. I know that at 200mg test CYP (100mg subq E3.5days) my total test goes to the upper range of 1100. I also know that I need to use the caber for 2 weeks PCT not just one.
With this in mind I was thinking an 10wk cycle then back to HRT: Deca 400mg a week, test 200mg week, 12.5 mg stane daily, .25mg caber e3.5d, and 250IU HCG Mondays and Tuesdays. Any suggestions to improve this to meet my goal would be greatly appreciated.

**kelkel** · 08-21-2015, 07:45 AM

Why HCG on Monday and Tuesday?

**bethdoth** · 08-21-2015, 09:50 AM

I have read (all things male Dr John Crisler) that it should be taken the 2 days prior to your HRT test injection. I do my HRT injections on Sun morning and Wed evening. There is a ton of info out there and we all do what we think is right. Do you have a better suggestion? Also what would be the proper protocol for Deca at 400mg a week? Twice a week 200 each, EOD, daily?

I found the paper he wrote: This is the paragraph.
In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...S4Hydg&cad=rja

**tectime** · 08-21-2015, 10:59 AM

It doesn't matter much to when you take your hcg as look as its 3.5 days apart also. I take mine the day before my tes/deca injections. On the deca id stack it in the same syringe as the tes and I'd bump the tes up to at least 300 mgs per wk. just my personal preference.

**bethdoth** · 08-26-2015, 09:30 AM

Ok time to plan my next cycle. After doing more research I think i will do 200mg test cyp and 400mg Deca . Do my injections same as I do my HRT Sunday morning 100 test and 200 deca and same thing Wed evening. Keep my HCG at 250iu Monday and Tuesday, caber .25 Sunday and Wednesday, and stane 12.5mg daily with fat. I may have to increase my stane a bit but will wait till mid cycle blood work to check.
I have to look at my schedule, but want to maximize my time in the weight room with no disruptions from trips. So I am thinking mid Oct start depending on G2G labs from last tren cycle.

**bethdoth** · 09-04-2015, 09:03 AM

It's been 5 weeks since my last tren injection. I felt my estradial might be high so I went and got my test and estradial checked. I have full labs next week via the VA. My test is a bit lower than normal 682 even though I went back to my same old HRT protocol and my estradial low at 19 normally runs about 26.
After tren do you think something could have changed? I will up my test to 80mg E3.5 and lower my stane dosage from 12.5mg ED to maybe 10mg ED.

**tectime** · 09-04-2015, 12:27 PM

How are your gains holding out on your hrt dose? Notice any lose of size or appearance of muscle definition? I know strength will be down just wondering about gains. I know I'm able to keep gains easily after blasts but I don't let me t levels get very low so just wondering?!

**bethdoth** · 09-08-2015, 09:26 AM

I would say that everything gains and strength are down just a bit. Let me see if I can explain this right. Just roughly I gained 5 pounds of muscle and increased my bench by 100 pounds, I would say I still have about 4 pounds of the muscle and am still around 80 pounds heavier in my bench. My pumps when lifting are still very good. I think my main lose is the hardness and some of the fullness you have when on cycle. I have an appointment tomorrow for a full physical and labs. I hope all is G2G. If all is good then I will pick a date to start my next cycle of Deca vise tren .

**tectime** · 09-08-2015, 12:13 PM

Sounds about the same good gains good keeps. How's the psychological after tren effects if you don't mind me asking brother? For me not too bad but I def have to adjust back to " normal"!