First cycle and diet, Help is appreciated.

[Droq13]

Hey guys,

I've been researching for over a year now. I'm 27y/o 5-11 187lbs about 12-13% bf. So far this is what I have come up with. I would appreciate your guys' feedback. Main questions are: Is 400mg test enough or should I go to 500? How does PCT look? Thanks!

Cycle:
Weeks 1-12 400mg test e
Weeks 3-12 HCG 500iu 2x/week

Armidex as needed .2-.3 as needed

PCT:
Week 15-18 Nolva 40/40/20/20
Proviron 25mg ED
Forma Stanzol 2 pumps 2x/day

Diet:

Meal 1- 4 1 scoop ON whey, 1 scoop glutamine, 1 cup whole milk, 4 egg omelette, 1/2 cup oats, 2 tbsp almond butter.

Meal 2- 8 oz sirloin, 1 cup green veggies, 1 cup brown rice or sweet potato

Meal 3- 8 oz chicken breast, 1 cup green veggies, 1/2 avocado, 1 cup brown rice.

Meal 4 pre workout 1 scoop ON Whey, 1 scoop glutamine, 1 scoop glycoject.
Post workout 1 scoop carnivor beef isolate, 1 scoop glutamine, 1 scoop glycoject.

Meal 5- 8 oz fish (salmon, tilapia, mahi), 1 cup green veggies, 1 cup brown rice/ sweet potato

Meal 6- Weight gainer shake 1 scoop casein, 1 scoop glutamine, 1 cup whole milk, 1 cup cottage cheese, 1/2 cup oats, 2 tbsp almond butter, Banana/berries

Snacks throughout the day- raw almonds, walnuts, home made beef jerky, quest bars, quest protein chips,

[Kyle1337]

500mg just seems to be the sweet spot for beginners. I'd also suggest HCG from day 1 with the first test shot. Continue the HCG 2x a week until 3 days prior to PCT. Arimidex shouldn't be taken 'as needed' it should be taken .25mg EOD up until PCT. You should run Clomid with the nolva for PCT

Diet looks good... You say you've been researching for a year, but it seems you may have missed the most important thread My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

[Droq13]

I've gotten mixed answers thats why.. For test, some people say start with 300mg, then 400, then 500mg 3rd cycle... Looks like i'll bump it up to 500mg a week. Can I pin once since it's a long esther or do I have to pin twice?

Reason for the HCG starting 2 weeks later is I've read since Test E is a longer esther, I can wait 2 weeks. Wasn't sure on this one that's why I'm asking.

As for Clomid, I read Swale's PCT guide and it said that clomid and nolva don't have significant benefits running together. I've seen a bunch of sample PCT's use Clomid/Nolva together, and some that use only nolva.

[73rr]

I've gotten mixed answers thats why.. For test, some people say start with 300mg, then 400, then 500mg 3rd cycle... Looks like i'll bump it up to 500mg a week. Can I pin once since it's a long esther or do I have to pin twice?

Reason for the HCG starting 2 weeks later is I've read since Test E is a longer esther, I can wait 2 weeks. Wasn't sure on this one that's why I'm asking.

As for Clomid, I read Swale's PCT guide and it said that clomid and nolva don't have significant benefits running together. I've seen a bunch of sample PCT's use Clomid/Nolva together, and some that use only nolva.

500mg test will be fine. Pin twice so sunday and thursday.

Run the hcg like kyle suggested. Y risk it?

Same with clomid and nolva. It's not to expensive so y risk it? Rather safe then sorry

[Kyle1337]

I've gotten mixed answers thats why.. For test, some people say start with 300mg, then 400, then 500mg 3rd cycle... Looks like i'll bump it up to 500mg a week. Can I pin once since it's a long esther or do I have to pin twice?

Reason for the HCG starting 2 weeks later is I've read since Test E is a longer esther, I can wait 2 weeks. Wasn't sure on this one that's why I'm asking.

As for Clomid, I read Swale's PCT guide and it said that clomid and nolva don't have significant benefits running together. I've seen a bunch of sample PCT's use Clomid/Nolva together, and some that use only nolva.

Still no backing, just random statements. You keep saying "I've read somewhere" yet you go into no detail....

There are 2 major components involved in recovery. Testosterone production and Spermatogenesis.

LH and FSH are both required for the equation. LH is produced by the pituitary and stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Once testosterone is in production it works alongside FSH and stimulates sertoli cells to produce sperm. Sperm production is hindered if either of these are unhealthy. They both work in synergy. You need BOTH to be at healthy levels.

clomid has multiple effects. It's an anti-estrogen, so it obviously decreases the estrogenic effects in your body by stimulating the Hypothalamus back to life and sending gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) to your pituitary, so that LH/FSH can be secreted.

Nolva boosts the effects of clomid because it put clomid into "competition" mode where they both fight for a receptors to bind to. This competitiveness will only occur with the presence of BOTH nolva/clomid, and will inevitably resolve the issue of excess estrogen in the Hypothalamus. This will trigger both LH and FSH to crank UP, as the high estrogen in this cluster is suppressive. This entire scenario is not as effective with only one drug.

Furthermore varying the compounds; Since we know both stimulate LH, what most don't know is that the act is different. clomid boosts the amplitude of LH serum, but has no effect on the frequency. Nolvadex is the complete opposite in that area, where it boosts the actual frequency of LH and has no effect on its amplitude.

You're probably assuming they're identical and overpowering... clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Nolva is also mixed, however.... it is a pure antagonist in the E receptor in breast tissue. There is a reason that clomid is not recommended for gynecomastia reversal, but Nolva is.

Can you recover with just Nolvadex, or just clomid? Well, anything is possible. But why would you take that risk if the combination gives you a much better chance? To save a few bucks and risk your health? clomid when coupled with Nolvadex is clearly the safer choice over using either compound individually.

There's NEVER a good reason to spew random information and flood the boards with random statements. You also JUST started a thread asking about running multiple compounds. Does your random rule not apply to you? Not trying to beat you up here, Zero, but let's be logical, at least.

Quote from austinite... he knows his shit

[Droq13]

Got it, okay i'll be runningnolva, clomid, and proviron . Is the forma stanzol necessary or overkill?

Also, just a quick question on dosing... armidex is 1mg tabs. Do i break these into 4 and take eod? Same with proviron 50mg tabs-- break into 2?

[Bio-Active]

Got it, okay i'll be runningnolva, clomid, and proviron. Is the forma stanzol necessary or overkill? Also, just a quick question on dosing... armidex is 1mg tabs. Do i break these into 4 and take eod? Same with proviron 50mg tabs-- break into 2?

yes using a pill cutter is the easiest way

[TheTaxMan]

Quote from austinite... he knows his shit

Im sure austinite is female - just saying

[Kyle1337]

Im sure austinite is female - just saying

* CURRENT STATISTICS:

Age:	36
Height:	6' 0"
Weight:	201 LBS
Body Fat %:	13.66%
Lean:	173.54 LBS
Fat:	27.46 LBS
TDEE:	3776
Training:	11 years
TRT Patient:	Yes

[I][B]



* BLOOD WORK RESULTS (as of : 9/17/2012)



[TD]ESTRADIOL[/TD]
[TD]21 pg/mL[/TD]
[TD]< OR = 39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, LC/MS/MS[/TD]
[TD]897 ng/dL[/TD]
[TD]250 - 1100[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]TESTOSTERONE, FREE[/TD]
[TD]151.2 pg/mL[/TD]
[TD]35.0 - 155.0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CHOLESTEROL, TOTAL[/TD]
[TD]193 mg/dL[/TD]
[TD]125.0 - 200[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CHOLESTEROL, HDL[/TD]
[TD]40 mg/dL[/TD]
[TD]> OR = 40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CHOLESTEROL, LDL[/TD]
[TD]128 mg/dL[/TD]
[TD]< 130[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]TRIGLYCERIDES[/TD]
[TD]151 mg/dL[/TD]
[TD]< 150[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]GLUCOSE[/TD]
[TD]91 mg/dL[/TD]
[TD]65 - 99[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]UREA NITROGEN (BUN)[/TD]
[TD]23 mg/dL[/TD]
[TD]7 - 25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CREATININE[/TD]
[TD]1.08 mg/dL[/TD]
[TD]0.60 - 1.35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]SODIUM[/TD]
[TD]141 mmol/L[/TD]
[TD]135 - 146[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]POTASSIUM[/TD]
[TD]4.9 mmol/L[/TD]
[TD]3.5 - 5.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CHLORIDE[/TD]
[TD]102 mmol/L[/TD]
[TD]98 - 110[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CARBON DIOXIDE[/TD]
[TD]28 mmol/L[/TD]
[TD]21 - 33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CALCIUM[/TD]
[TD]10.5 mg/dL[/TD]
[TD]8.6 - 10.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]PROTEIN, TOTAL[/TD]
[TD]8.0 g/dL[/TD]
[TD]6.2 - 8.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE[/TD]
[TD]91 u/L[/TD]
[TD]40 - 115[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

__________________________________________________ ________________________________

I could be wrong, but judging by his weight, height, natural test levels and so on... I'd say he's a male

[Mr.BB]

Got it, okay i'll be runningnolva, clomid, and proviron . Is the forma stanzol necessary or overkill?

Also, just a quick question on dosing... armidex is 1mg tabs. Do i break these into 4 and take eod? Same with proviron 50mg tabs-- break into 2?

Lose the proviron. Its supressive, no reason to take it specially in pct.

Whats is formastanzol?? If its some test booster its probably a waste of money.

Yes, cut arimidex pills in 4. Pill cutters will help.

Get bloodwork before cycle.

[Droq13]

forma stanzol is a lotion that is supposed to increase igf-1 and decrease progesterone receptors.. okay I can scrap that and save 60 bucks.

I was reading that proviron helps with libido and helps keep strength and gains during pct. If used in small doses at 25mg its supposedly not supposed to induce hpta suppression.

I'll be getting lab tests after xmas... I was actually going to ask, which lab test do you recommend. I read the "How to get accurate testosterone level results on blood work" thread.

Good info but i'm not sure which tests I should get, I don't want to overkill it. I've recently had labs done on cholesterol, glucose, etc and everything came back fine. Never ran a test panel though.

[i_SLAM_cougars]

The ones I would be interested in are

Test
Free Test
CMP
CBC
Sensetive E2 Assay

[TheTaxMan]

@kyle possibly true, just his or her profile has a photo album and looks like a female to me lol, have a look. Plus every avatar change has been the same woman, who is a professional female bodybuilder (forgot her name, but may want to remain provate so wouldnt post the name anyway)

[Mr.BB]

forma stanzol is a lotion that is supposed to increase igf-1 and decrease progesterone receptors.. okay I can scrap that and save 60 bucks.

I was reading that proviron helps with libido and helps keep strength and gains during pct. If used in small doses at 25mg its supposedly not supposed to induce hpta suppression.

I'll be getting lab tests after xmas... I was actually going to ask, which lab test do you recommend. I read the "How to get accurate testosterone level results on blood work" thread.

Good info but i'm not sure which tests I should get, I don't want to overkill it. I've recently had labs done on cholesterol, glucose, etc and everything came back fine. Never ran a test panel though.

Look here for info on lab panels for bloodwork.

Proviron is a DHT analog, it will only help libido if you have low DHT. It has no effect on muscles, you cannot find any DHT in muscles so it does nothing for strenght or gains.
It is supressive as is a potent androgen, maybe its only mildly supressive but still supressive. When on PCT you are trying to restablish your HPTA axis, you dont want anything supressive, even if its only midly, it is a sensitive time.

Plus it will mess your hairline very quickly if you are prone to it.

[Droq13]

Thanks for the help. What are your thoughts on pre-workouts? I mainly use pure arginine, a 1/4 scoop of evogen EVP for the flavor and sometimes 1/4 scoop of emerge (caffeine based) when I need extra focus.

[TheTaxMan]

Tried pre workouts for a few weeks, get immune to them quickly and they make me crash after workouts

Double espresso is a wonderful pre workout IMO

[Droq13]

Pre-cycle blood work in... Couple of the levels are slightly off. I posted the actual reading and the max of the range after.

Glucose 103, max 99
BUN 29, max 20
BUN Creatinine ratio 29, max 19
ALT 46, max 44

Testosterone is also low 246, normal range 348-1197. I got off a Ligandrol SARM cycle a month ago and read that Sarms tend to lower free test a few weeks after the cycle ends.


Are these lab results bad or Can I still proceed with the first test cycle?

[Droq13]

Ps- I've been lifting super heaving working at 90-95% of my max this week before the blood draw

[Mr.BB]

Pre-cycle blood work in... Couple of the levels are slightly off. I posted the actual reading and the max of the range after.

Glucose 103, max 99
BUN 29, max 20
BUN Creatinine ratio 29, max 19
ALT 46, max 44

Testosterone is also low 246, normal range 348-1197. I got off a Ligandrol SARM cycle a month ago and read that Sarms tend to lower free test a few weeks after the cycle ends.


Are these lab results bad or Can I still proceed with the first test cycle?

Its not the liver where bw indicates problems but with kidneys. Can we see the whole bloodwork?

I would reduce the protein intake, increase water intake and retest before starting any cycle.

Are you taking creatine powder? Whats your blood pressure?

[Droq13]

yes, I'm taking creatine. BP has been normal.

Test Name Result Flag Reference Range Lab
CBC With Differential/Platelet
WBC 9.0 3.4-10.8 x10E3/uL 01
RBC 4.81 4.14-5.80 x10E6/uL 01
Hemoglobin 15.1 12.6-17.7 g/dL 01
Hematocrit 45.8 37.5-51.0 % 01
MCV 95 79-97 fL 01
MCH 31.4 26.6-33.0 pg 01
MCHC 33.0 31.5-35.7 g/dL 01
RDW 13.1 12.3-15.4 % 01
Platelets 257 150-379 x10E3/uL 01
Neutrophils 68 % 01
Lymphs 24 % 01
Monocytes 7 % 01
Eos 1 % 01
Basos 0 % 01
Neutrophils (Absolute) 6.1 1.4-7.0 x10E3/uL 01
Lymphs (Absolute) 2.2 0.7-3.1 x10E3/uL 01
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.7 0.1-0.9 x10E3/uL 01
Eos (Absolute) 0.1 0.0-0.4 x10E3/uL 01
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.2 x10E3/uL 01
Immature Granulocytes 0 % 01
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 0.0-0.1 x10E3/uL 01
Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)
Glucose, Serum 103 HIGH 65-99 mg/dL 01
BUN 29 HIGH 6-20 mg/dL 01
Creatinine, Serum 1.00 0.76-1.27 mg/dL 01
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 103 >59 mL/min/1.73 01
eGFR If Africn Am 119 >59 mL/min/1.73 01
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 29 HIGH 8-19 01
Sodium, Serum 144 134-144 mmol/L 01
Potassium, Serum 4.6 3.5-5.2 mmol/L 01
Chloride, Serum 103 97-108 mmol/L 01
Carbon Dioxide, Total 25 18-29 mmol/L 01
Calcium, Serum 9.2 8.7-10.2 mg/dL 01
Protein, Total, Serum 6.5 6.0-8.5 g/dL 01
Albumin, Serum 4.2 3.5-5.5 g/dL 01
Globulin, Total 2.3 1.5-4.5 g/dL 01
A/G Ratio 1.8 1.1-2.5 01
Bilirubin, Total 0.3 0.0-1.2 mg/dL 01
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 69 39-117 IU/L 01
AST (SGOT) 31 0-40 IU/L 01
ALT (SGPT) 46 HIGH 0-44 IU/L 01
Testosterone , Serum
Testosterone, Serum 246 LOW 348-1197 ng/dL 01
Comment: Comment 01
Adult male reference interval is based on a population of lean males
up to 40 years old.
Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S
LH 4.0 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL 01
FSH, Serum
FSH 5.5 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL 01
1 of 2
Estradiol
Estradiol 10.6 7.6-42.6 pg/mL 01

[Droq13]

I never took a PCT after the 2 month Sarm cycle at 1mg ed. I was an idiot and listened to the guy at max muscle that i didn't need one... now i'm reading that I do.

[Mr.BB]

Yeah, which sarm were you using and when did you stopped using it?

You are basically proving what we have been discussing about sarms in a few threads below.

SARMs are supressive and not by a small amount.

Also im finding intriguing your quite high BUN and normal creatinine. Are you taking any other medications?

[Droq13]

I used Ligandrol at 1mg ED by chem-tek (sp?). I get monthly cortisone (kenalog) shots for a couple keloid scars... As far as prescription medication, I don't take anything. Vitamins- creatine, glutamine, protein, shark cartilage, joint support, cla, fish oil, and magnesium.

I'm planning to start supplementing vitamin D.

I was reading up on the BUN and creatinine... could it possibly be due to creatine and not enough water? I went on a 6 mile hike the day before so perhaps I was a bit dehydrated? I was also training with my powerlifting buddies that week so we were going pretty heavy for a 3 days that week and the other 3 days I was training upper body pretty heavy as well.

I have clomid and Nolva as I was planning my next cycle.. do you thing i should take a mild PCT? if so, how long and what dosage?

[applips]

Hey guys,

I've been researching for over a year now. I'm 27y/o 5-11 187lbs about 12-13% bf.

Diet:

Meal 1- 4 1 scoop ON whey, 1 scoop glutamine, 1 cup whole milk, 4 egg omelette, 1/2 cup oats, 2 tbsp almond butter.

Meal 2- 8 oz sirloin, 1 cup green veggies, 1 cup brown rice or sweet potato

Meal 3- 8 oz chicken breast, 1 cup green veggies, 1/2 avocado, 1 cup brown rice.

Meal 4 pre workout 1 scoop ON Whey, 1 scoop glutamine, 1 scoop glycoject.
Post workout 1 scoop carnivor beef isolate, 1 scoop glutamine, 1 scoop glycoject.

Meal 5- 8 oz fish (salmon, tilapia, mahi), 1 cup green veggies, 1 cup brown rice/ sweet potato

Meal 6- Weight gainer shake 1 scoop casein, 1 scoop glutamine, 1 cup whole milk, 1 cup cottage cheese, 1/2 cup oats, 2 tbsp almond butter, Banana/berries

Snacks throughout the day- raw almonds, walnuts, home made beef jerky, quest bars, quest protein chips,

3 meals and 3 shakes, are you taking meal 5 right after workout? Also how many calories is this diet in total?

[Mr.BB]

I would advise not to cycle with low test. You need to wait out to see if your body restarts on its own or do something like a power PCT.

Cycling might make it even harder to recover afterwards agravating the problem, or you might need to undergo TRT which at 27 kinda sux

[Droq13]

It's technically 4 meals and 2 big shakes. Meal 1 starts with a shake, but there's also eggs and oats. Meal 5 will be taken within 1 hour of workout. There's a post workout shake consumed immediately after. Calories I'm not sure, I was mainly counting macros.

[Droq13]

What kind of power PCT? I want to get this back to normal ASAP. Would 2 weeks clomid/nolva at 50/50 and 20/20 do the trick?

[73rr]

It's technically 4 meals and 2 big shakes. Meal 1 starts with a shake, but there's also eggs and oats. Meal 5 will be taken within 1 hour of workout. There's a post workout shake consumed immediately after. Calories I'm not sure, I was mainly counting macros.

How do u get macros without having cals counted?

[Droq13]

How do u get macros without having cals counted?

As in protein levels, carbs, etc.

Ie meal one has 25g protein from the shake, 24grams protein from eggs, and 7 grams protein from the almond butter, 5 grams from oats. Total 61 grams protein in meal 1

[73rr]

As in protein levels, carbs, etc.

Ie meal one has 25g protein from the shake, 24grams protein from eggs, and 7 grams protein from the almond butter, 5 grams from oats. Total 61 grams protein in meal 1

Ok so then add all that up and that would be your daily cal intake. For each protien, carb, and fats

[73rr]

So

1 cal of protien is 4 grams
1 cals of carbs is 4 grams
1 cal of fats is 9 grams

[thelifesquare]

500mg seems to be the sweet spot for beginners. You have to maintain you diet also.

One important thing just care about you knee because when you starts cycling, you just being careless about your knee. Just care them other wise you have to suffer in future.

[Droq13]

So

1 cal of protien is 4 grams
1 cals of carbs is 4 grams
1 cal of fats is 9 grams

So i calculated everything:

protein 435g 1739 cal
carb 290g 1182 cal
fat 151g 1358 cal

total cal 4300 cals

[Droq13]

500mg seems to be the sweet spot for beginners. You have to maintain you diet also.

One important thing just care about you knee because when you starts cycling, you just being careless about your knee. Just care them other wise you have to suffer in future.

Thank you, yes my knees and back... I try to be very careful as I had a back injury in the past

[73rr]

So i calculated everything:

protein 435g 1739 cal
carb 290g 1182 cal
fat 151g 1358 cal

total cal 4300 cals

Some may disagree but I would take some of that fat off and put it into the carbs. Seems like your eating enough though.

[Mr.BB]

435 grs of protein will also explain the high BUN.

You dont need that much protein. Your kidneys are not managing to remove all this urea (protein waste)from your blood. Lower your protein so your kidneys suffer less stress.
Look on youtube for george farah speechs, I tend to agree with most he says about nutrition, he only has 1 kidney due to a gunshot wound.

Personnaly also agree on reduce fat and increase carbs.

[Droq13]

435 grs of protein will also explain the high BUN.

You dont need that much protein. Your kidneys are not managing to remove all this urea (protein waste)from your blood. Lower your protein so your kidneys suffer less stress.
Look on youtube for george farah speechs, I tend to agree with most he says about nutrition, he only has 1 kidney due to a gunshot wound.

Personnaly also agree on reduce fat and increase carbs.

I'm taking about 2.3 gr protein/lb body weight.. I train about 6 times a week, usually heavy (80-90% of max) with occasional deload weeks. Should I reduce this to 2 gr/ lb body weight? This would put me at about 370 gr protein/day

[Droq13]

Some may disagree but I would take some of that fat off and put it into the carbs. Seems like your eating enough though.

If I drop some fat off and increase carbs, which fats should I eliminate? Skim milk over whole milk? tilapia over salmon? scratch out the almond butter?

[Droq13]

I have an appointment with my doctor in 3 days... This low testosterone is really freaking me out. I've been doing more research on low test and I feel like I have most of the symptoms... low libido, low energy, fatigue, even noticing signs of depression (didn't think much of it before)... Should I start a nolva/clomid cycle for 2 weeks and see what happens?

[TheTaxMan]

We need good fats in our diet

But not Saturated fat so cut those out

Whole milk is full of saturated fat, so go skimmed