Newbie Expectations

[Jetlag707]

Hey all.

Where to begin. Hopefully it's not too scattered. I've been reading a lot here and there are many others who are so much more articulate than me. Anyways, caller you are on the air, how can we help you?

Stats:
51 yo
179#
6'
8% BF
Endurance athlete until bad accident in 2003. Approximately 10 years off before doing first Ironman. Then did 2 more in the next year. Long distance swimmer. Longest was Bridge to Bridge in SF Bay.
Started TRT 4 weeks ago. Dr started 100mg weekly (self injected) based on Free Test of 54. Because of the way the script was written and shipped I've been doing 200mg pinned 100mg 2x Friday/Monday

Background. Took a cruise on my 50th birthday and did a BF analysis. It was the electrostatic variety. Came in at 12.5%. Weight was about 159# due to training for Ironmans. That was in August last year. My weight dropped to 154# in September. So I decided to take time off from that type of endurance training and switch to weights. I've been in and around a gym before but of course always something to gain, right? My typical PRs would have been centered around Pull up reps etc vs. bench press or squats. And at 6' 154# we, or those who do know know, what that looks like.

Fast forward to today. From roughly October of last fall to April of this year I put on weight and dropped BF. Pictures of BF analysis if it help. I'm not saying that you can put on lean mass but I did. It was a LOT of work and diet played a huge role. It was very validating to read the post about the beginner cycle and how diet was so important along with target weights/heights. So I hit those, mostly.

At 51, with lethargy and so many other symptoms of low T I went and got it checked. I have a decent local support network, read a good buddy who is going through the same thing. Now that I am on Test C, dude, why didn't I do this earlier!

So what, as a newbie, are manageable expectations for this going forward? A blast and cruise of Test 200/500, for example? I get that. What are my goals you might ask. Right? That would help of course. I suppose, I am new right, I want to add mass. I'd like to see how #185-#190 <10% BF feels looks and at the same time do events. I understand about WADA and exemptions. Keeping in mind I'm not going to quit my day job, as an age grouper-except for swimming- I'm low on the totem pole and really one of the biggest goals is to look good naked. As a California native theres swimsuit weather almost 24/7.

In my continued research are there compounds I should lean towards, read up on, stay away from? The diet that's worked for me so far is high in fat and protein. I'm an ectomorph, hard gainer and it's a lot of work for me. I imagine my diet will change while on a cycle to take advantage of the specific compound but I do still live in California and love to basically eat what I call clean.

Any advice? Links? Dialogue? I hope I didn't ramble on too much but I'm sure I did.

Thanks. To quote someone I read earlier, it got real when I got the script.

[canadian77]

My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

Start here. But pretty much yes do a 500mg EW of Test for 16 weeks. Since you're an older guy who is looking to blast cruise, might as well stay on longer. You'll probably easily put on 20lbs of LBM.

I've seen a couple studies where they put old guys on 600mg of Test EW for 20 weeks, told them to eat at maintenance with only 70 grams of protein per day and zero exercise. The average gain was 16lbs of lean body mass. So assuming you do things correctly, you'll kill it my friend!

[AR's King Silabolin]

I have a good, efficient and relatively safe solution for you, specially when on trt.

Do this 12 weeks cycle. 10 mg LGD, mk677 12,5 mg twice a day. And Rad140 20-30 mg each day.

The gains will be steroidlike, i promise, hardly any sides execept from significantly lowered HDL cholestrol. So u migth wanna spend some bucks on cholestrolsupps. And a cholestrolfriendly lifestyle is mandatory.

10-15 pounds of clean musclegains should happen for u.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

Start here. But pretty much yes do a 500mg EW of Test for 16 weeks. Since you're an older guy who is looking to blast cruise, might as well stay on longer. You'll probably easily put on 20lbs of LBM.

I've seen a couple studies where they put old guys on 600mg of Test EW for 20 weeks, told them to eat at maintenance with only 70 grams of protein per day and zero exercise. The average gain was 16lbs of lean body mass. So assuming you do things correctly, you'll kill it my friend!

Please note that water weight is considered lean body mass.
It is impossible by the laws of physics to put on 16lbs of muscle if you are eating at maintainence.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

I have a good, efficient and relatively safe solution for you, specially when on trt.

Do this 12 weeks cycle. 10 mg LGD, mk677 12,5 mg twice a day. And Rad140 20-30 mg each day.

The gains will be steroidlike, i promise, hardly any sides execept from significantly lowered HDL cholestrol. So u migth wanna spend some bucks on cholestrolsupps. And a cholestrolfriendly lifestyle is mandatory.

10-15 pounds of clean musclegains should happen for u.

I disagree.
I think he should blast at 500mg of test per week with an AI and hCG year round.

[Jetlag707]

Canadian77 Read it. More than a couple of times now and will reread at least a couple more I'm sure. Thanks I was looking for something a bit different.

Silibolan Thanks for the tips. I'm familiar with SARMS and those specifically. I'm not looking into a SARM cycle. The costs involved make me lean the other direction especially since I'm already pinning.

The Deadlifting Dog. Thanks. I just started this process so I don't really see starting a blast until a couple of more months into it. I wasn't thinking that water is lean mass but it's not fat. If you're suppose to stay hydrated drink lots of water anyway, how much 'retention' is a lot? Water weighs about 7# per gallon. Is it just as simple as getting your BF checked, follow skeletal muscle mass and water- intracellular and extracellular just fluctuates? I've had it drop 2# overnight and as much as 4# doing cardio somedays.

Your suggestion of an AI and hCG year round. Why? Is the AI just as needed or would it become a regular with my morning coffee routine? And hCG. I've read and heard lots of stuff about it. Seems all over the map. Being an old guy kids are no longer on my radar screen. Is the hCG for more than keeping the boys looking their best like fat loss or what should I be looking out for?

Thanks. Great forum you guys have here btw.

[Chicagotarsier]

My two cents from my own personal experience.

It takes 6-12 months after going on HrT to get dialed in where you want to be, your body upregulates everything back to normal, and you can figure out your AI. My cycles before I had been on HrT a year were a shadow of the ones after. If I had listened to Marcus I would have saved myself some money.

After you get dialed in you still will not be completely happy. There is just something about your body handling the natural testosterone and you injecting substitute. You might find you are dealing with lowered libido due to estrogen management. Many things to get sorted before you move on to cycle or blast cruise. I know the feeling of wanting to get going but this is a marathon not a sprint.

As far as blast cruise I personally dislike this using test only. Too much estrogen crap to keep feeling natural. I have found that substances like (for me) Tren are a holy grail due to no aromizatation. Popping in 50 mg a week tren gives me the same experience as a 500 mg cycle of testosterone without the estrogen rollercoaster. I get a strength bump and have no Tren sides. Just what I do. Makes it hella easy to use tren at higher doses when cycle time comes also. I am not saying what I do is right for you. I am saying there might be better options for blast and cruise than testosterone only. You have to be patient and try to find what works for you.

[Jetlag707]

Thanks deadlifting dog & chicagotarsier.

Looks like I'll go back to lurking and reading maybe over at the TRT and nutrition forums.

The blast and cruise advise and your small tren was kinda what I was looking for. I didn't realize it might take so long to get dialed in on TRT or that other values besides Test might become players. Having only a value of 54 for total test I thought it was pretty simple.

Thanks.

[songdog]

Tren isnt a beginner compound it shouldn't really be used until the 6th or 7th cycle when other compounds start fading.Tren will also kill your cardio.

[PT1982]

I have a good, efficient and relatively safe solution for you, specially when on trt.

Do this 12 weeks cycle. 10 mg LGD, mk677 12,5 mg twice a day. And Rad140 20-30 mg each day.

The gains will be steroidlike, i promise, hardly any sides execept from significantly lowered HDL cholestrol. So u migth wanna spend some bucks on cholestrolsupps. And a cholestrolfriendly lifestyle is mandatory.

10-15 pounds of clean musclegains should happen for u.

I'm not picking on Sil because I disagree with 99% of his advice, but of any member here to not take advice from, he's the one.
Do not, under any circumstance, take peptides, sarms , serms, etc for a first time blast. Your first cycle is generally going to be your best one, in terms of physical change, so do what is known to work and has plenty of data and research. More people can help and assist you when you use normal gear for cycling. I'm not saying you won't benefit from using those compounds, but stick to what is known. You can always tinker with that stuff down the road if you want to. Just be sure to research them to see if you even want to try them.

For your first blast, I would advise you to stick to test only, maybe some anavar with your trt dose of test. But don't try to get fancy and go straight for the "exotics" right off the bat. Make sure you have all of your ancillaries on hand before you start, as well as hcg . Keep reading threads as you currently are doing, and keep asking questions. You can never be too safe in this. Keep conservative in your approach and you should be fine. Also, keep your expectations realistic. At 51 years old, don't try to shoot for the moon and overdo it. Pace yourself and keep your health top priority. Your results will be based off of your diet and training regimen. Stay on top of your bloodwork and your prostate. On that note, consider getting on cialis as well. A low daily dose or a moderate every other day or 3rd day will be fine. I prefer every day dosing. 2.5-10mgs daily would be more than enough. Too much and you might have to carry duct tape around with you. Try 2.5-5mgs daily and go from there.

[AR's King Silabolin]

I disagree.
I think he should blast at 500mg of test per week with an AI and hCG year round.

Wow. Just wowish. Have a swimtrainer and a first timer, who is just looking to look good naked, to blast 500 mg year round.
If i had said something like this, many guys would have been busy for 2 days writing shit.

Im not calling u out dog. Your take is interessting. In tha ask the doc series the doc suggests blasting 600 year round.

Im calling cape out. Where your newbilinks this time?

[Jetlag707]

Tren isnt a beginner compound it shouldn't really be used until the 6th or 7th cycle when other compounds start fading.Tren will also kill your cardio.

Kill my cardio. Roger that. Good to know. And looking ahead to 6 or 7 cycles is like 3-4 years down the road right? That's a ways away.

Thanks

[Jetlag707]

Wow. Just wowish. Have a swimtrainer and a first timer, who is just looking to look good naked, to blast 500 mg year round.
If i had said something like this, many guys would have been busy for 2 days writing shit.

Im not calling u out dog. Your take is interessting. In tha ask the doc series the doc suggests blasting 600 year round.

Im calling cape out. Where your newbilinks this time?

So I'm familiar with SARMS . That's something I might have entertained if I hadn't started TRT. The way I see it I'm in now. I was always worried about needles before but nothing to do about it now.

I'm seeing the 500 a week as something right out of the first cycle sticky. YMMV.

[Jetlag707]

PT1982 Thanks for the clear and solid advice. I appreciate it. I have a couple of questions. You and Deadliftingdog both recommend hcg . Why? Other than combating shrinkage, I've got 3 kids already and not planning any more. Is this something that will come up with TRT too or just cycles?

The other question is why the cialis?

Thanks

[AR's King Silabolin]

So I'm familiar with SARMS . That's something I might have entertained if I hadn't started TRT. The way I see it I'm in now. I was always worried about needles before but nothing to do about it now.

I'm seeing the 500 a week as something right out of the first cycle sticky. YMMV.

Eh...sarms are perfect when on trt.

[MToption2]

PT1982 Thanks for the clear and solid advice. I appreciate it. I have a couple of questions. You and Deadliftingdog both recommend hcg . Why? Other than combating shrinkage, I've got 3 kids already and not planning any more. Is this something that will come up with TRT too or just cycles?

The other question is why the cialis?

Thanks

Hcg serves many many other functions. Testosterone isn't the only hormone the testes are responsible for. It's good to take for both trt and cycles. Your gonads are shutdown either way.

Lolol the cialis is totally optional imo. Icing on top?

[MToption2]

PT1982 Thanks for the clear and solid advice. I appreciate it. I have a couple of questions. You and Deadliftingdog both recommend hcg . Why? Other than combating shrinkage, I've got 3 kids already and not planning any more. Is this something that will come up with TRT too or just cycles?

The other question is why the cialis?

Thanks

Hcg serves many many other functions. Testosterone isn't the only hormone the testes are responsible for. It's good to take for both trt and cycles. Your gonads are shutdown either way.

Lolol the cialis is totally optional imo. Icing on top?

[AR's King Silabolin]

So I'm familiar with SARMS . That's something I might have entertained if I hadn't started TRT. The way I see it I'm in now. I was always worried about needles before but nothing to do about it now.

I'm seeing the 500 a week as something right out of the first cycle sticky. YMMV.

Eh...sarms are perfect when on trt.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Wow. Just wowish. Have a swimtrainer and a first timer, who is just looking to look good naked, to blast 500 mg year round.
If i had said something like this, many guys would have been busy for 2 days writing shit.

Im not calling u out dog. Your take is interessting. In tha ask the doc series the doc suggests blasting 600 year round.

Im calling cape out. Where your newbilinks this time?

BLAST at 500mg and an AI
and
hCG year round

Sorry for the confusion.
only hCG is year round

[Jetlag707]

Yeah. Got it. And there's a whole active thread now on cialis lol

[kelkel]

Jetlag be sure you keep an eye on your blood work. Specifically your RBC's (hemo and hema) and E2. Make sure when you pull E2 a Sensitive Assay is used for accuracy. At 200 mgs per week you need to keep an eye on your E2 as most will need an AI for estrogen control at that dose. You are lean and that's beneficial but you still may need to add this. Further, monitor your psa and dht as well.

Heed PT's advice in Post #9's second paragraph as it's on point. Further, you just initiated TRT and I assume you'll have an upcoming doctors appointment to check blood work. You should consider returning to your original dose until you dial in and get through this appointment. You cannot properly evaluate efficacy of your prescribed protocol if you titrate doses beyond what your doctor tells you. You need stable levels to do so.

Once through your follow-up appointment and all is well do what you desire. You also need to consider the doctor-patient relationship if he suspects you are going beyond his protocol. All that said, simply with restored optimal hormone levels you should be able to make phenominal gains assuming nutrition and training are on point.

Be well and welcome to the forum!

ps: Cialis and Vit D. Get on them.

[Jetlag707]

Jetlag be sure you keep an eye on your blood work. Specifically your RBC's (hemo and hema) and E2. Make sure when you pull E2 a Sensitive Assay is used for accuracy. At 200 mgs per week you need to keep an eye on your E2 as most will need an AI for estrogen control at that dose. You are lean and that's beneficial but you still may need to add this. Further, monitor your psa and dht as well.

Heed PT's advice in Post #9's second paragraph as it's on point. Further, you just initiated TRT and I assume you'll have an upcoming doctors appointment to check blood work. You should consider returning to your original dose until you dial in and get through this appointment. You cannot properly evaluate efficacy of your prescribed protocol if you titrate doses beyond what your doctor tells you. You need stable levels to do so.

Once through your follow-up appointment and all is well do what you desire. You also need to consider the doctor-patient relationship if he suspects you are going beyond his protocol. All that said, simply with restored optimal hormone levels you should be able to make phenominal gains assuming nutrition and training are on point.

Be well and welcome to the forum!

ps: Cialis and Vit D. Get on them.

Thanks. There's a couple of things in there. First you're right. I should be doing what my doc wants and find out what the new normal is before I second guess what's going on. That goes to patience and feeling like a little school girl going to her first dance I guess.

I will have a follow up in a few weeks. Nothing is on the books yet. She said 8 weeks I think which is how much I have anyways. A panel with progesterone, estradiol, test and free test, DHEA, FSH, LH, SBGH. RBCs came with a CBC and basic metabolic panel.

My buddy who recommended this place went thru creams, pellets and finally shots. He also has hCG . Will it probably come up later on it's own or is this something have to be proactive about?

I sup Vit D now and it's good. It'll be interesting to see how it's affected. Cialis...I had a script for it before because with basically no T, let's just say it enhanced the quality of the experience. Now that I'm on Test though, dude, every morning-EVERY morning there's morning wood. I guess I'm a bit confused.

Thanks for reminding me to keep it real with my doc. And thanks for the welcome. Looks like a decent place.

[PT1982]

PT1982 Thanks for the clear and solid advice. I appreciate it. I have a couple of questions. You and Deadliftingdog both recommend hcg . Why? Other than combating shrinkage, I've got 3 kids already and not planning any more. Is this something that will come up with TRT too or just cycles?

The other question is why the cialis?

Thanks

It's all about keeping your body normal. You are adding large doses of hormones to your body, which is going to start making other systems go into overdrive, or shutdown. So you want to normalize everything the best you can. Just like when using an AI. Hcg has more benefits other than shrinkage. To keep from getting long winded, read the sticky on it. Cialis is good for prostate health, sex related issues you might get while on blast, blood pressure (as it is a vasodialator).

[Jetlag707]

It's all about keeping your body normal. You are adding large doses of hormones to your body, which is going to start making other systems go into overdrive, or shutdown. So you want to normalize everything the best you can. Just like when using an AI. Hcg has more benefits other than shrinkage. To keep from getting long winded, read the sticky on it. Cialis is good for prostate health, sex related issues you might get while on blast, blood pressure (as it is a vasodialator).

Again with the sticky! jk

Thanks

[kelkel]

It is a great place to read, learn and contribute. Particularly focus on the HRT Forum since you're new to this world. Keep that in mind as most doc's unfortunately don't know hormones that well as they're not trained in them in med school.

I would suggest you drop back to your prescribed dose immediately to let the excess T clear from your system and you become stable. For one, you need to know where you land with TT, FT, RBC's, E2 and so on. Whether you need an AI or not at that dose, which I doubt all things considered. Maintain copies of your BW from this point forward as well.

Unfortunately HCG is probably something you'll have to bring up yourself. Read the sticky thread at the top of the HRT Forum about it. Also know that basically all the top docs in this field back the use of HCG, and use it themselves. It mimics LH which is shut down when exogenous testosterone is implemented. You have LH receptors throughout your body. It's about far more than just testical size, it maintains function as well.

Ask your doc to include Vit D (25 hydroxy) in your upcoming blood work. You should always know the effect of what dose you take as D is fat soluble not water soluble. This means excessive amounts can be toxic if over-done over time. Take it with a large meal for best absorption as well.

When it comes to "morning wood" it's simply your body's initial response to enhanced dopamine levels. Enjoy it as it will normalize over time.

[canadian77]

Please note that water weight is considered lean body mass.
It is impossible by the laws of physics to put on 16lbs of muscle if you are eating at maintainence.

Muscle is only about 20% protein my friend, and the rest is mostly water and glycogen.

Plus anyone who says you can't gain muscle in a caloric deficit hasn't tried Tren .