Anavar, T3/Clen, intermittent fasting, and an attempted emergency body recomp

[Jiggerjaw]

About me
Skip all this if you don't care about my life story. I'm going in to some detail so if someone does care about my workout background/current physical condition they know where I'm at.

I'm 26 years old, 5'11, through high school I did sports. Football/wrestling track til Sophomore year where I switched to cross country (weighed like ~120 pounds, was a year younger than everyone in my grade). Senior year of high school, I quit all sports, got depressed, worked at a pizza place, ate a bunch of pizza and shot up to ~200 pounds of fat, video game obsessed nerd.

I couldn't stand it so I worked out like crazy. From 18 years old to about 21ish, I did cardio out the ass, rode my bike everywhere, but wasn't seeing much improvement after I dropped to ~170. Was still always kind of chubby. Learned about hard cardio killing testosterone , hit the gym, and from 21-24 I became the man I had always wanted to be. I never quite got jacked but you could see my abs, I was pretty buff, probably around 18% BF, 180 pounds... Girls would tell me I was hot. It was great.

Got into a pretty serious relationship for the past couple years. I'm still at a university... The stresses of maintaining a serious relationship while trying to get in to grad school sent my workout schedule to the back burner. Fast forward to now... I'm 26, almost 27. I tried to maintain somewhat but basically I'm a fat mess.

Ended up breaking up with my girlfriend and realizing when going on Tinder/talking to girls that I'm a fugly ass mofo now. When I broke up w my girl (May 14th, almost two months ago), I was 198 pounds... I wasn't okay with this, went on a hardcore diet/workout regimen and got down to 185ish. Decided fuck it and for the first time in my life took some supplements not available at GNC. I started T3 and Clen . I lost another 7 pounds, down to 178... Which is nice since it's what I weighed before the girlfriend fiasco.

My lifts had already gone down and in this week of taking T3/Clen they went down significantly. The same weight I had lifted for 3 sets of 10-12 reps the week prior I could barely do 3 sets of 4-6. Having already lost so much strength in this past year I decided to go all out and take steroids for the first time ever. Upon this decision I took the last week to get my eating back to normal. I've shot back up to 185 and stabilized here (guessing glycogen/water regained).

Current me
So I've got the workout knowledge... My workouts used to be things like 10 sets of timed hill sprints, sub 6 minute warm-up miles before lifting, 1 legged bosu ball deadlifts with 60 pound dumbbells, squatting >360, box jumps to the highest box while holding 20 pound dumb bells... I wasn't anything phenomenal but I was in pretty fucking good shape. I've done the research, have all my forms down, and can manage a strength training/cutting routine well.
The problem is this was all realistically 2 years ago. I've worked out inconsistently and haven't lost everything but I've lost a lot.
I just dropped from 198 pounds, estimated 26% BF to 185 pounds estimated 22% BF (home caliper ranges from 18%-24%... Mostly finding around 22%)

My Plan
Goal: Body recomp. Keep lean muscle mass by normal eating training days, calorie deficit on off days

BMR= Lean body mass (lbs) x 13.8 calories = 1987

Thursday- Rest day (intermittent fast day) (360 calories, 28g carb, 44g protein, 14g fat) 2 t3 / 5 clen

Friday- Light Cardio Day [Bike Ride, MA, jog] (2875 Calories- ~288g carb, 216g protein, 96g fat) 4/5

Saturday- Arm Day [Dumbell flies, raises, curls] (3238 calories- ~324g carb, 243g protein, 108g fat) 3/5

Sunday- Leg Day [Squats, Back Ext, Hip Press] (3238 calories- ~324g carb, 243g protein, 108g fat) 3/5

Monday- Chest/Back [Bench, Pullups, crock] (3238 calories- ~324g carb, 243g protein, 108g fat) 3/5

Tuesday- Rest day (2506 Calories- 157g carb, 282g protein, 84g fat) 3/5

Wednesday- HIIT Day (Sprints, Gibraltar) (3238 calories- ~202g carb, 364g protein, 108g fat) 4/5

I also am taking a swing dance and tae kwan do class at my university. I go on hikes and life a moderately active lifestyle normally. These values keep me right at where I should be to maintain/slightly build muscle on training days but enter a calorie deficit on my Intermittent fast day. I believe with the Clen/T3 I should be in a daily calorie deficit even though I'm technically eating what I should be to build muscle.

My stack
The T3/clen dosages are listed next to my workouts. The T3 are 25mg and the Clen are 20mg (ie. 5 clen = 100mg) I plan on doing 1 week on/1 week off with the Clen.

I've ordered Letrozole , Anavar , and Nolvadex for my steroid stack. I know with high body fat, test is aromatized to estrogen which is why I'll be running Letro and Nolva with it.
I have 100x 20mg Anavar
30x 2.5mg Letro
30x 10mg Nolva

My plan is a 30 day cycle, starting on my cardio day after next week. I'm going to take 3 Anavar per day for 13 days, 4 per day for 14 days, then 2,2,1 to taper off over 3 days.
I'll take the Aromatase Inhibitor and Estrogen blocker bi-daily for the first six days, then daily for the rest of the cycle and the 3 days following the cycle. I've read that Anavar is pretty mild and a PCT of a couple days should be sufficient.

Why I'm Here
A) Encouragement... I'm going to be posting progress pics of this cycle and hopefully it works. I've put a lot of effort into researching it and getting my body prepared for this.

B) Tips/Suggestions - Please no suggestions about "bulk separate from cut". Yes, I could just not give a shit and become weak as fuck doing a 1000 calorie deficit every day for a couple months and I'd lose 20 pounds, be down to 165, and start from there.
I don't want to do that. I like being strong, I don't want to go back to some awkward looking scrawny guy that somehow still manages to have a gut. It's beach season and chubby guys get laid more than awkward skinny-fat dudes. I want to cut this fat while building some lean muscle. I know it's harder but I've seen that it's possible.
Any one that's experienced with anything (Clen, T3, Anavar, Letrozole, Nolvadex, diets, workouts, anything... ) that might let me know what I'm in for, please let me know your experience!! I'm very interested in how much Clen actually does since I only took it for a week before it started killing my strength.

I've never taken anything before. If you notice something blatantly wrong, please point it out. I'm posting in questions because this is my first time taking anything besides NO boosters and creatine. I'm a complete noob and am hoping some more experienced members can point me in a better direction (or tell me my plan looks awesome, I've done a lot of research but some reassurance is nice)


And I guess for a starting point...
*Note* I realize these are estimates from a body fat caliper and aren't as accurate as they could be *
May 14th- Caliper measurements unknown [198 lbs - estimated 27% BF - 144.5 lbs LBM]

June 24th- Chest 22, Stomach 32, Thigh 18 [178 lbs - 20.8% - 140.97 lbs LBM ]
*Tried to regain strength lost on initial cut*
July 7th- Chest 26, Stomach 34, Thigh 20 [185 lbs - 22.9%]


*Continued gaining strength lost on initial cut, strength increased towards pre-cut levels with no real change in body fat*
July 11th- Began the cycle as planned, a couple days earlier than the start of my workout cycle so anavar levels are up at first day of lifts.
Chest - 24, Stomach - 32, Thigh 18 [187.8 lbs - 21.3%]


July 14th- Decided to switch training schedule to HIIT twice a week since my recovery time seems short enough to handle it... Maybe anavar? Maybe placebo? Who knows... Not sure if it can start working in 3 days. Really feels like my recovery time is better though.
Chest 22, Stomach 30, Thigh 16 [182.4 lbs - 19.7%] Doesn't seem like I've lost anything but I calipered over and over and got the same results and I guess I did shed 5 pounds. Yesterday was fasting day and I haven't eaten dinner yet... We'll see if it stays off. I do notice the crease between my beer belly and waistline is almost gone Started Clen/T3 but stopped the Clen to see how I reacted to the Anavar. Plan on starting the Clen back up tomorrow.


July 20th- Chest 20, Stomach 28, Thigh 14 [185.2 lbs - 18%] Hard to believe there's any change from last week, but I guess I am seeing improvements on my hill sprints... Hard to say on my lifts since I switch them up week to week and the only repeated exercise (squats) I decided to work on my form since I've never been able to do full squats. Trying to transition from barely getting parallel to going past parallel, almost ass to ground. Starting to see some veins in my arms but overall look hasn't seemed to of changed at all. Decided to plan my meals for every day of the week instead of figuring it out day to day and under eating on most days.

July 23rd- Chest 18, Stomach 26, Thigh 14 [185.5 lbs - 17% - 154 lbs LBM]
The "beer belly" roll is nonexistent. Still some body fat around the abdomen but veins are visible in my forearms even during rest. Abs are starting to appear (hard to see in the pic since it's not the most definition, but that dimple is the beginning of abs). Overall, very happy. My lifts are going up, my cardio is lasting longer, and my bodyfat is literally melting off. I didn't even use clenbuterol for most of this past week (cuz I'm cycling it). My arms look bigger (which they must be because I weigh the same but have dropped 5% bodyfat) and instead of losing weight in my lifts like a normal cut, I've actually gone from doing 8 reps on my tricep extension and curls up to 3 sets of 12 reps, will be upping the weight next week. I'm excited for leg day today and chest/back tomorrow
I have 2 weeks of anavar left so I'll be starting my HCG this week and Nolva/letro next week.


August 3rd- Chest-18, Stomach 24, Thigh 12 [182 lbs - 15% (doubting these %s strongly now)]
Nearing the end of cycle... Started HCG, nolva and letro. After reading a bunch of shit on the boards about crashed estrogen, I'll be microdosing the letro every few days since I'm expecting to not have much T/E atm.
Realizing my caliper measurements aren't making my body fat calculations too accurate... Seems doubtful I'd be at 15% body fat and still have some gut. I think it's because I carry more weight around my midsection, especially love handles. If I replace my thigh measurement (12) with my love handle measurement (20), the calculated bodyfat % goes up to 18% which is probably more reasonable.
Overall, pretty happy. Abs are starting to come in, veins in my arms are always visible (though this could fade when the anavar is out of my system). The cycle is working out almost perfectly how I expected it to. I wasn't losing weight as quickly as I wanted so I've changed to 2 fasting days with ~600 calories and cut back 300 calories from every other day. I quit using the t3 and clen except for fasting days. Overall, strength has risen about as quickly as it would normally during a bulking phase for me. My hill sprints have seen crazy gains, faster than when I eat whatever I want.



Time for the crash

August 25th - 3 weeks after cycle, PCT complete - Chest - 12, Stomach 22, Thigh 10 [180 pounds, 12.9 % calculated (unrealistic) bodyfat]

I'll start this final update saying I know I didn't cut down to 12.9% bodyfat. I'd expect to see my abs if I had, I realize this. I continued measurements the same way I started. If the measurements at the end are off, the measurements at the start are inaccurate as well, but they should be consistently inaccurate.

As far as a "crash", there was literally nothing. No noticeable difference at all in any of my lifts. I stopped putting on strength for about a week and then last week started seeing gains again. I kept the fat loss off and gained strength in all of my lifts, and my sprints. It's exactly what I wanted. Maybe these results would have been possible without anavar, who knows... My past experience tells me there's no way I would have put on strength during a period of cutting this much bodyfat.

Final pic

[cousinmuscles]

About me
Skip all this if you don't care about my life story. I'm going in to some detail so if someone does care about my workout background/current physical condition they know where I'm at.

I'm 26 years old, 5'11, through high school I did sports. Football/wrestling track til Sophomore year where I switched to cross country (weighed like ~120 pounds, was a year younger than everyone in my grade). Senior year of high school, I quit all sports, got depressed, worked at a pizza place, ate a bunch of pizza and shot up to ~200 pounds of fat, video game obsessed nerd.

I couldn't stand it so I worked out like crazy. From 18 years old to about 21ish, I did cardio out the ass, rode my bike everywhere, but wasn't seeing much improvement after I dropped to ~170. Was still always kind of chubby. Learned about hard cardio killing testosterone , hit the gym, and from 21-24 I became the man I had always wanted to be. I never quite got jacked but you could see my abs, I was pretty buff, probably around 18% BF, 180 pounds... Girls would tell me I was hot. It was great.

Got into a pretty serious relationship for the past couple years. I'm still at a university... The stresses of maintaining a serious relationship while trying to get in to grad school sent my workout schedule to the back burner. Fast forward to now... I'm 26, almost 27. I tried to maintain somewhat but basically I'm a fat mess.

Ended up breaking up with my girlfriend and realizing when going on Tinder/talking to girls that I'm a fugly ass mofo now. When I broke up w my girl (May 14th, almost two months ago), I was 198 pounds... I wasn't okay with this, went on a hardcore diet/workout regimen and got down to 185ish. Decided fuck it and for the first time in my life took some supplements not available at GNC. I started T3 and Clen . I lost another 7 pounds, down to 178... Which is nice since it's what I weighed before the girlfriend fiasco.

My lifts had already gone down and in this week of taking T3/Clen they went down significantly. The same weight I had lifted for 3 sets of 10-12 reps the week prior I could barely do 3 sets of 4-6. Having already lost so much strength in this past year I decided to go all out and take steroids for the first time ever. Upon this decision I took the last week to get my eating back to normal. I've shot back up to 185 and stabilized here (guessing glycogen/water regained).

Current me
So I've got the workout knowledge... My workouts used to be things like 10 sets of timed hill sprints, sub 6 minute warm-up miles before lifting, 1 legged bosu ball deadlifts with 60 pound dumbbells, squatting >360, box jumps to the highest box while holding 20 pound dumb bells... I wasn't anything phenomenal but I was in pretty fucking good shape. I've done the research, have all my forms down, and can manage a strength training/cutting routine well.
The problem is this was all realistically 2 years ago. I've worked out inconsistently and haven't lost everything but I've lost a lot.
I just dropped from 198 pounds, estimated 26% BF to 185 pounds estimated 22% BF (home caliper ranges from 18%-24%... Mostly finding around 22%)

My Plan
Goal: Body recomp. Keep lean muscle mass by normal eating training days, calorie deficit on off days

BMR= Lean body mass (lbs) x 13.8 calories = 1987

Thursday- Rest day (intermittent fast day) (360 calories, 28g carb, 44g protein, 14g fat) 2 t3 / 5 clen

Friday- Light Cardio Day [Bike Ride, MA, jog] (2875 Calories- ~288g carb, 216g protein, 96g fat) 4/5

Saturday- Arm Day [Dumbell flies, raises, curls] (3238 calories- ~324g carb, 243g protein, 108g fat) 3/5

Sunday- Leg Day [Squats, Back Ext, Hip Press] (3238 calories- ~324g carb, 243g protein, 108g fat) 3/5

Monday- Chest/Back [Bench, Pullups, crock] (3238 calories- ~324g carb, 243g protein, 108g fat) 3/5

Tuesday- Rest day (2506 Calories- 157g carb, 282g protein, 84g fat) 3/5

Wednesday- HIIT Day (Sprints, Gibraltar) (3238 calories- ~202g carb, 364g protein, 108g fat) 4/5

I also am taking a swing dance and tae kwan do class at my university. I go on hikes and life a moderately active lifestyle normally. These values keep me right at where I should be to maintain/slightly build muscle on training days but enter a calorie deficit on my Intermittent fast day. I believe with the Clen/T3 I should be in a daily calorie deficit even though I'm technically eating what I should be to build muscle.

My stack
The T3/clen dosages are listed next to my workouts. The T3 are 25mg and the Clen are 20mg (ie. 5 clen = 100mg) I plan on doing 1 week on/1 week off with the Clen.

I've ordered Letrozole , Anavar , and Nolvadex for my steroid stack. I know with high body fat, test is aromatized to estrogen which is why I'll be running Letro and Nolva with it.
I have 100x 20mg Anavar
30x 2.5mg Letro
30x 10mg Nolva

My plan is a 30 day cycle, starting on my cardio day after next week. I'm going to take 3 Anavar per day for 13 days, 4 per day for 14 days, then 2,2,1 to taper off over 3 days.
I'll take the Aromatase Inhibitor and Estrogen blocker bi-daily for the first six days, then daily for the rest of the cycle and the 3 days following the cycle. I've read that Anavar is pretty mild and a PCT of a couple days should be sufficient.

Why I'm Here
A) Encouragement... I'm going to be posting progress pics of this cycle and hopefully it works. I've put a lot of effort into researching it and getting my body prepared for this.

B) Tips/Suggestions - Please no suggestions about "bulk separate from cut". Yes, I could just not give a shit and become weak as fuck doing a 1000 calorie deficit every day for a couple months and I'd lose 20 pounds, be down to 165, and start from there.
I don't want to do that. I like being strong, I don't want to go back to some awkward looking scrawny guy that somehow still manages to have a gut. It's beach season and chubby guys get laid more than awkward skinny-fat dudes. I want to cut this fat while building some lean muscle. I know it's harder but I've seen that it's possible.
Any one that's experienced with anything (Clen, T3, Anavar, Letrozole, Nolvadex, diets, workouts, anything... ) that might let me know what I'm in for, please let me know your experience!! I'm very interested in how much Clen actually does since I only took it for a week before it started killing my strength.

I've never taken anything before. If you notice something blatantly wrong, please point it out. I'm posting in questions because this is my first time taking anything besides NO boosters and creatine. I'm a complete noob and am hoping some more experienced members can point me in a better direction (or tell me my plan looks awesome, I've done a lot of research but some reassurance is nice)


And I guess for a starting point...
June 24th- Chest 22, Stomach 32, Thigh 18
July 7th- Chest 26, Stomach 34, Thigh 20

*edit* Please no tan line comments... Haven't been in the mood for going shirtless lately

Hi Jiggerjaw, interesting to hear your story and I hope you reach your goals and go beyond.

My experience with anavar is that it is way too weak to see any results. I tried it on a testosterone only cycle. I did both labmax presence test and quantitative test, and it was pretty much pure anavar powder (bought it in raw powder form). The most I noticed it was some increased hardness in my forearms and chest, a bit more veins, and a bit more striations on my upper chest. Zero strength gains. This makes sense with the properties it has, it draws water out of the muscle cells and increases RBC, so it is good for e.g. precontest or something.

You should use testosterone as a base for your cycle, you should have both clomid and nolvadex for PCT, get some HCG too, and a more suitable AI. Nolvadex does not lower estrogen, it just blocks estrogen from being taken up in some specific area. Read this thread: My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

Letrozole will crash your estrogen levels. Anavar which doesnt even raise your estrogen combined with this is a mess. You will do very well with a weaker but better AI like aromasin on a testosterone only cycle. I found that 6.25mg per day kept my estrogen levels the same as pre cycle, on 600mg test per week. Thats 1/4 of a regular aromasin pill! And its the weakest AI.

Your workout routine looks a bit funky. Maybe you made some typos. But your arms days are flies (chest), raises (shoulders) and then curls? It all seems incomplete. You need to build a good foundation with no weak opposite parts. My way of looking at it is doing compound exercises where you get more work in less sets, not doing too many exercises, but still getting every type of movement in. For back you need both vertical pulls and horizontal pulls (pullups and rows). For chest you need bot flat and incline press, for shoulders vertical press upwards, a nice complement is dips for triceps and some lower chest/shoulders too. You need both squats and deadlifts and some assistance work for hamstrings and lower back in particular, and then some ab work too. Why? because if youre going to reach your goals, youll be lifting heavy weights, and if you have major imbalances due to not training opposing muscles, you place a LOT of stress on your joints.

[hollowedzeus]

Ill let the other guys give the advice. But youre a good looking guy with nothing 'wrong' with your physique. More power to you for wanting to better it (dont we all). Whilst reading youe background i had a different picture of you painted in my head. You dont have popping abs or veins but you definetly lift and that does attract attention haha.

Also like everyone says. Its a marathon not a sprint. You can look even better for the rest of your life taking it nice and easy with a perfect diet and great workout plan.

Welcome to the forum and best of luck with whatever you decide to do

[Jiggerjaw]

*edit* It doesn't say so but this is a reply to rsnplg

Thank you for the response! The exercises listed aren't everything i'm doing, just threw in some for examples. On my arm day I work shoulders (standing dumbbell flies and lateral raises). I have a home gym and my dumbbell selection is small so I try to gear my workouts towards the weights that I have without having to use my adjustable dumbbells cuz they take a few minutes to change the weights. I haven't done a full workout plan yet, when I do I'll post it here. I'm unfamiliar with the correct names for a lot of things... I think what I call a crock raise is a "bent over dumbbell row". I'll try to use proper names when I type up my workout schedule. Any suggestions for forearm/grip strength? My current plan is farmer carries with 45 pound plates.

I'm very interested in your views on Letrozole ... My thoughts on it were that Anavar mimics testosterone . During the cycle my normal T levels will drop slightly (hopefully not too much). Since I'm on the chubby side, normally a fair amount of testosterone will be converted to estrogen in my fat cells. Just using an AI should boost my natural T levels, then when I get off the Anavar, everything will kinda fizzle back to normal since I'll taper off the Anavar and continue the AI/Estrogen block for a few days after the cycle. I based my PCT off of a single guide for an anavar cycle, so if this sounds ridiculous, please let me know and I'll do some more research. Looking around right now, some people are saying you need to taper off Anavar at 10mg/day for a week or two so your body can ramp it's T back up. Did you taper it when you used it?

It sounds like your experience with Anavar is actually what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a semi-drastic cut... From 23%BF at 185lbs (42.55 lbs fat) down to ~17-18% at 180lbs (30.6 lbs fat). Losing 12 pounds of fat in 30 days means I need an average deficit of 1400 calories per day. Instead, I'm attempting a body re-comp with the primary goal being to keep my current strength level, but gain some endurance/lean tissue. I believe that building this lean tissue will burn extra calories and the Anavar is there just to keep my body in an anabolic state. I'm not going for strength gains at all at this point, just lean tissue during a cut.

Honestly, the main reason I avoid pure testosterone is two-fold. First, I absolutely hate needles, I don't know if I could stab myself. Second, I fear what it might do to my natural levels. I've always been towards the lower side of natural and I want to minimize any damage that I do to my endocrine system.

[Jiggerjaw]

*edit* and this is a reply to hollowedzeus
Thank you

I'm not such a "fat mess" anymore since I've kept 15 pounds off, but I'm still rather chubby.

Thanks for the advice, I don't plan on reverting back to a lazy piece of shit with the next girlfriend haha. My biggest regret of this relationship was letting go of the things I cared about to try and make it work. Hopefully I can do this 6 week body re-comp and then continue on the path

[Back In Black]

Anavar and Clen will not be enough to stop the T3 eating your lean tissue.

Your testosterone levels will be suppressed not increased, therefore, no increase in E2. Therefore no need for an AI.

In all honesty mate, you look like you need a good lifting programme, a good diet and. Cardio plan. That is all.

As for a recomp in only 30 days? Not going to happen, sorry. Focus on cutting the fat, do it slowly to try and stave off muscle loss and evaluate in 12 weeks.

I know none of this is what you want to hear but it's what you need to hear.

We have a great diet section why not post there for some advice.

[cousinmuscles]

Anavar and Clen will not be enough to stop the T3 eating your lean tissue.

Your testosterone levels will be suppressed not increased, therefore, no increase in E2. Therefore no need for an AI.

In all honesty mate, you look like you need a good lifting programme, a good diet and. Cardio plan. That is all.

As for a recomp in only 30 days? Not going to happen, sorry. Focus on cutting the fat, do it slowly to try and stave off muscle loss and evaluate in 12 weeks.

I know none of this is what you want to hear but it's what you need to hear.

We have a great diet section why not post there for some advice.

Truth!

You said you had done a lot of research but from what you wrote about AI usage (that it will increase natural T on cycle... it will not do that), PCT et.c. is not good. Read the stickies and check out the stickies in the diet and workout section.

My experience with anavar is not what you were looking for. All it did was give some temporary cosmetic benefits. It does not enhance fat loss. It shuts down your natural T but does not replace it, so you damage your endocrine system for nothing in return. But as Back in Black said you need to first learn to train, eat, cut et.c. before using various compounds... And as BIB said recomposition in 30 days is way too optimistic.

My bad for suggesting cycle ideas. In all honesty it looks like you can easily gain without AAS still. Why not learn how to train and eat, and use the AAS years later when you have a good foundation?

[Jiggerjaw]

Truth!
In all honesty it looks like you can easily gain without AAS still. Why not learn how to train and eat, and use the AAS years later when you have a good foundation?

You are right, I know I could get back to where I was before without any added help. After all, I've done it once before.

I am glad I posted here because I didn't realize what a hardcore aromatase inhibitor Letro is... After doing further research I'm definitely glad you told me to look into it more.

The logic behind an AI during/post Anavar (I realize Anavar mimics testosterone and lowers your natural testosterone) is that I'm only taking 60mg of Anavar, I don't believe that is enough to completely suppress my natural testosterone. Since I'll still have some testosterone through the end of the cycle, keeping it from being turned to estrogen should help my levels return to normal after the Anavar is done. This is a two-fold approach, first off... Testosterone not being converted means higher testosterone levels . Second, estrogen signals the downregulation of LH and FSH. By cutting estrogen levels, I'll help keep my LH and FSH at normal levels which will allow my testosterone to return to normal levels faster.

I appreciate the advise and in no way want to burn any bridges, but I'm going to do my cycle. I'd like useful recommendations other than "don't do your cycle". I should mention I'm a 4th year biological sciences major so I do understand this stuff pretty intricately. I do know that I'm not plateauing and to people who have been at this stage and easily pushed past it, it seems pointless. To me, spending a few hundred dollars to keep the muscle mass that I have spent years building is worth it. I could spend 3 months slowly cutting, trying to preserve mass and still losing a lot of it. Followed by 3 months of slowly building back up my strength to where it is now.... Yeah, sure, that's definitely a possibility and it's only 6 months.

The other option is I take some anabolics during my cut and I don't lose any lean mass. In 1/2 the time or less end up at the same place I'd be in 6 months doing this without any help.

I don't mean to sound like an asshole, I can't stress enough how much I do appreciate the insight of people more experienced than me. At the same time, my goals are my goals and even if you wouldn't try it, I'm going to.

*edit* Looked in to HCG and I can't really see any reason not to use it? It seems to stop the andrenergic downregulation of testosterone... So in principal, I could use Anavar and HCG with minimal decrease in natural T production?

[Dj Screw]

You are right, I know I could get back to where I was before without any added help. After all, I've done it once before.

I am glad I posted here because I didn't realize what a hardcore aromatase inhibitor Letro is... After doing further research I'm definitely glad you told me to look into it more.

The logic behind an AI during/post Anavar (I realize Anavar mimics testosterone and lowers your natural testosterone) is that I'm only taking 60mg of Anavar, I don't believe that is enough to completely suppress my natural testosterone. Since I'll still have some testosterone through the end of the cycle, keeping it from being turned to estrogen should help my levels return to normal after the Anavar is done. This is a two-fold approach, first off... Testosterone not being converted means higher testosterone levels . Second, estrogen signals the downregulation of LH and FSH. By cutting estrogen levels, I'll help keep my LH and FSH at normal levels which will allow my testosterone to return to normal levels faster.

I appreciate the advise and in no way want to burn any bridges, but I'm going to do my cycle. I'd like useful recommendations other than "don't do your cycle". I should mention I'm a 4th year biological sciences major so I do understand this stuff pretty intricately. I do know that I'm not plateauing and to people who have been at this stage and easily pushed past it, it seems pointless. To me, spending a few hundred dollars to keep the muscle mass that I have spent years building is worth it. I could spend 3 months slowly cutting, trying to preserve mass and still losing a lot of it. Followed by 3 months of slowly building back up my strength to where it is now.... Yeah, sure, that's definitely a possibility and it's only 6 months.

The other option is I take some anabolics during my cut and I don't lose any lean mass. In 1/2 the time or less end up at the same place I'd be in 6 months doing this without any help.

I don't mean to sound like an asshole, I can't stress enough how much I do appreciate the insight of people more experienced than me. At the same time, my goals are my goals and even if you wouldn't try it, I'm going to.

*edit* Looked in to HCG and I can't really see any reason not to use it? It seems to stop the andrenergic downregulation of testosterone... So in principal, I could use Anavar and HCG with minimal decrease in natural T production?

Simply put, your understanding of how Anavar, HCG , and AIs work is completely wrong. I understand the thought behind your theories but they aren't going to do enough of what you think they are supposed to

Running Anavar without test is flat out not worth it, and you can reach your fat loss goals in the same amount of time if not sooner naturally without trying all of these compounds you have no experience using. When you are at a high body fat% you don't have to worry too much about losing muscle as long as you don't keep your calories too low and keep your protein high.

All these people trying to give you advice have tons of experience, they have no reason to give you wrong/bad advice.

It's not worth it and you aren't going to reinvent the wheel with what you are trying to do, trust me.

Good luck

[Back In Black]

Good luck with whatever you do but as stated above your understanding is incorrect.

[tarmyg]

According to what you have posted above, you have a lean mass of 144 lb. You average 2670 calories/day. Exactly how are you going to cut fat using this strategy? NOTE: Intermittent fasting has zero advantage (from a fat loss perspective that is) compared to any other strategy.

[Jiggerjaw]

According to what you have posted above, you have a lean mass of 144 lb. You average 2670 calories/day. Exactly how are you going to cut fat using this strategy? NOTE: Intermittent fasting has zero advantage (from a fat loss perspective that is) compared to any other strategy.

I'm taking clenbuterol which is supposed to increase your BMR by ~500 calories per day. I'm using this route so my body still gets enough nutrients/protein and hopefully I end up with a better cardio/vascular system.

I've decided to go with intermittent fasting since I've read research that suggests it allows users to keep more lean body mass compared to normal dieting. Two different studies suggest this and I haven't found any that suggest otherwise.

Thank you for the good luck wish! I'll be posting results so I hope to prove everyone wrong. If not, at least everyone else gets to do the "I told you so"

[hollowedzeus]

Clen damages heart cells when used as bodybuilders do apparantly... i for one am very hesitent to use it as most of the males in my family experience heart complications.... take your time ans think about it before you go all out on it. Is it really worth your heart? 500kcal is piss easy to do everyday. 6.5kph 15% incline on the treadmill burns 500kcal plus in 30 minutes at my bodyweight of 87kg. And its good for your heart.

IF is good i suppose if you have issues keeping yourself from eating food but you dont see too many huge guys using it. Most use some form of carb cycling. Theres a goos sticky on it in the diet section.

Take care. Live for the moment but this is your one and only life. Bodybuiliding and having a flawless physique is about the longevity game.

The guys are giving great advice i woulf follow it but you do what youve got to do mate

[Dj Screw]

I'm taking clenbuterol which is supposed to increase your BMR by ~500 calories per day. I'm using this route so my body still gets enough nutrients/protein and hopefully I end up with a better cardio/vascular system.

I've decided to go with intermittent fasting since I've read research that suggests it allows users to keep more lean body mass compared to normal dieting. Two different studies suggest this and I haven't found any that suggest otherwise.

Thank you for the good luck wish! I'll be posting results so I hope to prove everyone wrong. If not, at least everyone else gets to do the "I told you so"

It's not about proving us wrong bud, what we are trying to tell you is that you are going to get great results no matter what you do....you don't need all this crap you are trying to take.

People who have a high body fat can lose fat at an amazing rate and not lose any muscle doing it 100% naturally. You have a long way to go before you need any extra help.

Start looking into AAS and other things once you get back on track and around 15% bodyfat.

You are trying to perform brain surgery when you don't even need a bandaid. It's actually ridiculous what you are trying to do to be completely honest, but hey it sounds like you are dead set on doing it anyways lol. Keep your diet in check, it is the key to all success in this game

Good luck!

[cousinmuscles]

You are right, I know I could get back to where I was before without any added help. After all, I've done it once before.

I am glad I posted here because I didn't realize what a hardcore aromatase inhibitor Letro is... After doing further research I'm definitely glad you told me to look into it more.

The logic behind an AI during/post Anavar (I realize Anavar mimics testosterone and lowers your natural testosterone) is that I'm only taking 60mg of Anavar, I don't believe that is enough to completely suppress my natural testosterone. Since I'll still have some testosterone through the end of the cycle, keeping it from being turned to estrogen should help my levels return to normal after the Anavar is done. This is a two-fold approach, first off... Testosterone not being converted means higher testosterone levels . Second, estrogen signals the downregulation of LH and FSH. By cutting estrogen levels, I'll help keep my LH and FSH at normal levels which will allow my testosterone to return to normal levels faster.

I appreciate the advise and in no way want to burn any bridges, but I'm going to do my cycle. I'd like useful recommendations other than "don't do your cycle". I should mention I'm a 4th year biological sciences major so I do understand this stuff pretty intricately. I do know that I'm not plateauing and to people who have been at this stage and easily pushed past it, it seems pointless. To me, spending a few hundred dollars to keep the muscle mass that I have spent years building is worth it. I could spend 3 months slowly cutting, trying to preserve mass and still losing a lot of it. Followed by 3 months of slowly building back up my strength to where it is now.... Yeah, sure, that's definitely a possibility and it's only 6 months.

The other option is I take some anabolics during my cut and I don't lose any lean mass. In 1/2 the time or less end up at the same place I'd be in 6 months doing this without any help.

I don't mean to sound like an asshole, I can't stress enough how much I do appreciate the insight of people more experienced than me. At the same time, my goals are my goals and even if you wouldn't try it, I'm going to.

*edit* Looked in to HCG and I can't really see any reason not to use it? It seems to stop the andrenergic downregulation of testosterone... So in principal, I could use Anavar and HCG with minimal decrease in natural T production?

You may be a 4th year biology student but that doesn't seem to help you in searching for information. I don't know where you got the info you have but you have a wrong understanding of things. Anavar does not mimic testosterone. Anavar is a DHT derivative. It will suppress your natural test and you will have near zero gains to show for it. It will not raise your estrogen so you don't need an AI with it. Anavar is also used by people who want to lower their test so they become eligible for TRT... So yeah it is pretty suppressive. Low estrogen during cycle will not keep LH and FSH high, they will be pushed to the bottom regardless.

HCG will not keep your test levels in normal range when you use anavar. HCG is used on cycle to maintain testicular function and size, so that you don't have to wait a very long time post cycle until they start working properly again. It mimics LH but during the time you are on cycle there is negative feedback so testosterone is barely produced anyway.

Do your cycle if you wish, but please come back and tell us how you could have spent that money in a gym membership so that you could have at least trained properly

[ryobi1]

I would definatly do more research.
I dont think you quite understand what you are proposing.
I have run an anavar only cycle, you dont really need a AI as there in no conversion to estrogen,
at least in most men, you natural test will crash, and you will fell like shit when you stop the anavar,
I would also not reduce dosage just run 40 mgs till you run out, split dosage, morn and eve. research a
PCT and follow it to the T, at least 4 weeks worth.
As far as clen , you concern is gaining strength yet clen reduced you strength, give it a pass.
T3? get a thermometer and make sure your body temp stays with in range if youre going to run it.
Maybe just run the Var and a PCT, and as stated previously, Diet and exercise program to get lean.

Ive always seen increase in strength on Var, I'm not massive, but i do get increased lifts

[ScotchGuard02]

Lots of good advice already give so I've not nothing new to add except to wish you luck and tell you to keep going. Fitness is for life, right, and not for 30 days. Take your time and be healthy.

[Jiggerjaw]

Thank you for the well wishes I've started the cycle and have been updating the original post with progress. Does anyone know how long anavar takes to start seeing any changes? I started it 3 days ago and feel like maybe my sprint workout recovery was quicker? Could just be cuz I'm getting back into shape though and that happens kinda quickly.

[Dj Screw]

Thank you for the well wishes I've started the cycle and have been updating the original post with progress. Does anyone know how long anavar takes to start seeing any changes? I started it 3 days ago and feel like maybe my sprint workout recovery was quicker? Could just be cuz I'm getting back into shape though and that happens kinda quickly.

You are wasting your time trying to see a difference/results in picutres 3-4 days apart, you are just going to drive yourself crazy. Wait 3-4 weeks before taking pictures and trying to compare

[Jiggerjaw]

I wanted to take body caliper measurements before and after the intermittent fasting day... Took a pic for consistency

[hollowedzeus]

You're not going to use the letro are you? And are you going to pct? I see you are running nolva alongside anavar but as other have said, if you crash your test then you likely will keep your estrogen lowish so gyno probably isnt going to be an issue.

I have no experience but i would at least save nolva and get clomid for pct.

Its not too late to stop

From what you're using i dont know if you can expect anything other than equal muscle and fat loss. T3 will start eating through your tissue...

[Jiggerjaw]

Haven't started the AI or nolva yet... Plan on starting HCG whenever it gets here since by then my natural T is likely to be shut down. I still have a pretty high libido at the moment, assuming my T must've not dropped too much yet. I did just transition from 60 to 80 mg on the anavar so I'm expecting to see a bit more of a shut down this week.

The whole cycle will end up being 2 weeks on anavar alone, 1 week on anavar/hcg, 1 week on anavar/hcg/letro/nolva, then 2 weeks hcg/letro/nolva, then another week on just letro and nolva.

[Back In Black]

^^^ you should really read back over your thread and take the advice, your plan is a mess.

[Jiggerjaw]

You all can say what you will, but I've dropped 10% bodyfat while gaining 10 pounds in lean body mass. That wouldn't be possible without the stack I'm using. It's unnatural, to claim I could do this on my own is silly.

I'm starting to see my abs and I'm halfway through my cycle. It's obviously working. Will I keep the gains? I'd assume so since I'm doing PCT as if I was running a high test cycle even though I'm only running 80mg/day of Anavar . I can guarantee my T isn't fully shut down but I'm going to act like it is anyways.

Even if I gain back some of the fat or lose some of the muscle, there's no way I'm going back to how I was pre-cycle and I got an instant confidence boost 2 weeks in... I was depressed and lacking confidence and now I feel pretty good about my body again. If my stack ended now I would be pleased with the results. I've still got two weeks to go. I wouldn't be surprised if I hit 15% BF while gaining another 5 pounds of muscle tbh. These 2 weeks have been solely on Anavar and the following two weeks I'll be upping my natural T production.

[Dj Screw]

You all can say what you will, but I've dropped 10% bodyfat while gaining 10 pounds in lean body mass. That wouldn't be possible without the stack I'm using. It's unnatural, to claim I could do this on my own is silly.

I'm starting to see my abs and I'm halfway through my cycle. It's obviously working. Will I keep the gains? I'd assume so since I'm doing PCT as if I was running a high test cycle even though I'm only running 80mg/day of Anavar . I can guarantee my T isn't fully shut down but I'm going to act like it is anyways.

Even if I gain back some of the fat or lose some of the muscle, there's no way I'm going back to how I was pre-cycle and I got an instant confidence boost 2 weeks in... I was depressed and lacking confidence and now I feel pretty good about my body again. If my stack ended now I would be pleased with the results. I've still got two weeks to go. I wouldn't be surprised if I hit 15% BF while gaining another 5 pounds of muscle tbh. These 2 weeks have been solely on Anavar and the following two weeks I'll be upping my natural T production.

LOL are you a troll? If you are, then you are one of the greatest trolls of all time on this site.

It's been 2 weeks man, you look exactly the same in ALL of your pictures...and that's fine because it's only been a few days. Don't kid yourself

Relax, don't take pictures/body fat tests everyday, drop all this crap you are taking because it's not doing you any favors except maybe in the strength department. Be patient, and you will get great results naturally.

I really hope you are joking/trolling

[Cuz]

You're gonna end up looking worse than you are now. Forget about drugs, you don't need them and will be a waste of time. Learn how to eat and train, you will be amazed at what you can do without the drugs. Research is key.

[Jiggerjaw]

This is a 100% serious thread

I'm not saying I look great by any means. I don't have a six pack, I don't have veins popping out of my chest... I have seen results though. You say all the pics look the same but first pic I have literally a roll of fat hanging over my waist and it's not there anymore. There was a crease on my waistline from that roll and you can literally see it disappear picture to picture.

The body caliper results are for my own benefit since there really isn't going to be a visible change week to week. The change is going to be in millimeters of bodyfat. Since I started the cycle, I've lost 6 mm in my stomach pinch. This is actually 3 mm of surface fat since when you pinch it you're measuring the fat under the skin on each side of the pinch.


I've lost less than a half centimeter from my stomach... Is this super noticeable? Hell no. But it's actually a huge change considering the fact that my cycle has been two weeks and it equates to a 4% bodyfat reduction.

I'm not expecting to look like a fitness model from this cycle. I'm attempting to cut back 15% bodyfat in a 3 month period without losing all of my muscle. So far, I'm right on track. Everyone's telling me it's possible naturally but as I stated, I was losing an incredible amount in all of my lifts. With the anavar , I'm not... It's the opposite, I'm getting stronger and increasing my LBM while simultaneously noticing a rapid reduction in bodyfat. Why would I quit? It's a 30 day cycle. I'm not going to fuck up my system running a mild steroid for 4 weeks.

[Dj Screw]

This is a 100% serious thread

I'm not saying I look great by any means. I don't have a six pack, I don't have veins popping out of my chest... I have seen results though. You say all the pics look the same but first pic I have literally a roll of fat hanging over my waist and it's not there anymore. There was a crease on my waistline from that roll and you can literally see it disappear picture to picture.

The body caliper results are for my own benefit since there really isn't going to be a visible change week to week. The change is going to be in millimeters of bodyfat. Since I started the cycle, I've lost 6 mm in my stomach pinch. This is actually 3 mm of surface fat since when you pinch it you're measuring the fat under the skin on each side of the pinch.


I've lost less than a half centimeter from my stomach... Is this super noticeable? Hell no. But it's actually a huge change considering the fact that my cycle has been two weeks and it equates to a 4% bodyfat reduction.

I'm not expecting to look like a fitness model from this cycle. I'm attempting to cut back 15% bodyfat in a 3 month period without losing all of my muscle. So far, I'm right on track. Everyone's telling me it's possible naturally but as I stated, I was losing an incredible amount in all of my lifts. With the anavar, I'm not... It's the opposite, I'm getting stronger and increasing my LBM while simultaneously noticing a rapid reduction in bodyfat. Why would I quit? It's a 30 day cycle. I'm not going to fuck up my system running a mild steroid for 4 weeks.

Something is wrong with your testing then, because if you dropped 10% body fat and added 10 pounds of lean mass in 14 days as you said in your post before your last then you would look completely different

[Back In Black]

In 2 weeks on anavar only you lost 10% bodyfat and gained 10lbs muscle? Physically impossible.

Quite easy to fuck yourself up running a mild steroid for 4 weeks.

Good luck anyway, you don't want to hear any advice so I'm out.

[hardgainer1]

You definitely didn't need all those chemicals to get the results you got... Do you even lift?

[Jiggerjaw]

Something is wrong with your testing then, because if you dropped 10% body fat and added 10 pounds of lean mass in 14 days as you said in your post before your last then you would look completely different

The bulk of the bodyfat loss was before my cycle and before any pics got taken That cutting resulted in a lot of muscle loss which is why I started the cycle. Since beginning the cycle I've continued taking weight off (slowly) while simultaneously gaining muscle. My friends have all told me I look really great and they can see that I've lost weight by the shape of my face.

[hollowedzeus]

Maybe the issue was you werent training hard enough or you werent eating enough to sustain muscle?

Exhaust all options before gear.

Cut the cycle short and listen to the guys. You feel great now, youre gonna feel AWFUL afterwords. Especially when your gains go down the pan with your crashed t levels

[Jiggerjaw]

What makes my cycle so much different than everyone else's? How come I will lose all my gains, but others who do cycles with proper PCT can maintain their's? I understand that I have more bodyfat, thus I'll need a stronger AI because fat cells produce aromatase. Besides this though, is it just the "anavar only" stigma or is there actual logic that I'm missing out on?

[hollowedzeus]

Because you are using tge anavar as a crutch to get the results. You dont know how to diet to hold on to any progress that you make. Any cosmetic chsnges the var makes to you will go away when it is discontinued. Plus you do not have a proper pct in place

[Back In Black]

What makes my cycle so much different than everyone else's? How come I will lose all my gains, but others who do cycles with proper PCT can maintain their's? I understand that I have more bodyfat, thus I'll need a stronger AI because fat cells produce aromatase. Besides this though, is it just the "anavar only" stigma or is there actual logic that I'm missing out on?

Why do you need an AI????? You aren't taking test or anything that will aromatise. You will crash not only your natural testosterone levels but also your E2.

You're missing out on a whole load of logic that has been explained above that you choose to ignore but YOLO right!

[Jiggerjaw]

I'm here for help, that's the main reason I posted the thread... I believe I have my diet under control. When I was working out a few years ago I did literally 100+ hours of researching and diet/exercise planning. I was in good shape but plateauing and not losing any fat past a certain point. At that time I wasn't eating enough... When I started tracking with Myfitnesspal I started seeing results but then I met my ex and everything kinda went to the backburner.
I posted my macros... If you see something wrong with them, please let me know. That's kinda why I posted them. Instead of a "you don't know how to diet" comment, maybe offer some insight?

After posting my original plan and getting feed back that my T would be shut down, I decided to add HCG during the second half of my cycle. This is going to bring my normal T back to normal during the end of my cycle. After this, I will continue the HCG tapering off over the next two weeks. At this point I'll be starting the SERM/AI. I'm not worried about gyn, the SERM is to inhibit the negative feedback estrogen has on T production. The AI is to create a favorable T to estrogen ratio as my T levels crash when the HCG is stopped.

This seems pretty standard. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong so instead of treating me like an idiot... Why not give me suggestions towards my goals knowing that I wanted to try an anabolic for the first time in my life. The "don't do it" boat sailed a long time ago. I've been on cycle for over two weeks and if my PCT or something else is messed up, why not explain it to me?

[Back In Black]

Read all the posts you have above again and again and again.

Read this and understand what HCG does, it certainly doesn't restore your test levels

HCG: Why you should use it on-cycle only & how to prepare your hCG for injections


Read and understand what an AI does and why you shouldn't take it without exogenous test.

If you come of this this barely normal you will have been a lucky boy.

[Jiggerjaw]

Read all the posts you have above again and again and again.

Read this and understand what HCG does, it certainly doesn't restore your test levels


Read and understand what an AI does and why you shouldn't take it without exogenous test.

If you come of this this barely normal you will have been a lucky boy.

I do understand how HCG works, I know it mimics LH. I figure two weeks into my cycle my T has shut down as much as it's going to. The HCG is to return my T towards normal to finish off my cycle and then keep it normal for a couple weeks after my cycle as the anavar wears off. At the end of these two weeks, my T level should be around baseline which means the only suppression would be what natural level of suppression my T would be giving off. I'll be tapering the HCG down week to week to smooth the transition from anabolic to normal.

If having estrogen is important for reasons I don't realize, I'll leave the AI out. From what I've read, it helps with bone density but is not all that important for men unless you have too much in which case it causes numerous problems. For this reason, it doesn't seem like a bad idea to crash my E for a few weeks while my T is crashing just so the T to E ratio still favors T, plus there won't be as much E suppressing my T production.

I've looked up "side effects of AI" and "estrogen function in men" and it honestly doesn't seem like it's too horrible of a hormone to crash. What am I missing?

[Dj Screw]

I do understand how HCG works, I know it mimics LH. I figure two weeks into my cycle my T has shut down as much as it's going to. The HCG is to return my T towards normal to finish off my cycle and then keep it normal for a couple weeks after my cycle as the anavar wears off. At the end of these two weeks, my T level should be around baseline which means the only suppression would be what natural level of suppression my T would be giving off. I'll be tapering the HCG down week to week to smooth the transition from anabolic to normal.

If having estrogen is important for reasons I don't realize, I'll leave the AI out. From what I've read, it helps with bone density but is not all that important for men unless you have too much in which case it causes numerous problems. For this reason, it doesn't seem like a bad idea to crash my E for a few weeks while my T is crashing just so the T to E ratio still favors T, plus there won't be as much E suppressing my T production.

I've looked up "side effects of AI" and "estrogen function in men" and it honestly doesn't seem like it's too horrible of a hormone to crash. What am I missing?

Doesn't seem like a bad idea to crash your E for a few weeks? Doesn't seem like it's too horrible of a hormone to crash? LOL

I'm just shocked why you won't take any of the advice that has been given to you. There have been 8 different people not including myself telling you that what you are trying to do is flat out stupid. They have been doing this for years and years, have experience with everything you are trying to use, and this is your first time even looking at any of these compounds. Do you think you are some kind of wizard creating some special science that no one else has ever considered with compounds that have been around for decades? Take a step back and think about what you are doing, and maybe think about the 9 different people trying to give you advice.

You are in for a treat when you crash your E with Letro

[Jiggerjaw]

Do you blindly do what people tell you to do? You mock my plan, call me stupid, but don't point me to any research or even answer any of my questions. I'm here because I fully recognize and admit that people here know more than I do. Over and over, I have been kind and asked for help. Over and over, you've been a dick. Everyone else has posted with legitimate replies and are truly trying to help me out and warn me about things I'm doing wrong. All you're doing is piggybacking on other people telling me things, not offering any insight, and being rude.

If you know of side effects that occur while crashing E, the information would be appreciated. After all, my post is literally asking if there's any side effects that I'm missing if I crash my E. I didn't say "I know for a fact that I'm right". I said "What am I missing?". I don't know everything and I can admit to that. If you don't have any helpful information and all you want to do is make fun of me for not knowing everything, why the hell are you on this forum? This is a question forum and I posted asking "Is what I'm doing okay, if not please explain why". I'm not a blind sheep, I make my own decisions based off the information I'm presented with. I'm here to gather information from people that have the experience that I don't.