Second cycle, too hot for current bodyweight? and go..

Need a bit of advice if I could trouble someone wiser than I.

Stats:
35 yrs old
3 yrs 'fitness athlete focused' (climbing, running, skiing, etc)
3 yrs 'lifting/fitness focused' (lifting in winter combined with cardio, zero lifting and only outdoor hobbies during 4-5 summer months)
5'9"
160lbs (yes I'm light, goal is to stabilize at 180lbs @10-12%bf, any more than that and I'm going to start compromising my hobbies)

My first cycle (last yr):
W1-12: 400mg test-e
W1-14: 0.5mg dex E3D
W 15-18: clo @ 50/20/20/10; Nolva @ 40/20/20/10

I was happy with the intro cycle overall but I wasn't happy with the routine (was primarily a fitness athelete for ~5 years and while I worked out religiously I didn't do enough muscle-building). My goal this time is to pack on more mass in the winter season, and have significantly adjusted eating/workout plan to fit.

Plans for this cycle:
W1-5: 25mg dbol
W1-12: 600mg test-e pinned 2x/week @ 300mg
W1-10: 250mg deca pinned 1x/week
W1-14: 0.5mg dex E3D
* help here* W3-14: 500mg hcg/week pinned 2x/week @ 250mg
*OR W10-14: 1000mg hcg/week pinned 2x/week @ 500mg
W15-18: 50/50/25/25 Clo
W15-18 40/20/20/20 Nolva

Questions:
1. Is this too aggressive over my previous cycle? Is the deca @ 250 not aggressive enough? (keep in mind I'm pretty light)
2. Can anyone give me any thoughts on running hcg the whole cycle vs only the 4 weeks before PCT?
3. Any thoughts on Clo/Nolva dosages?
4. While gyno wasn't a problem the first time, is there something I should have on hand this time since test-e is much higher and I'm running deca as well?
5. Additional accessories confuse the hell out of me, sooo many out there. I understand the dbol is hard on my liver, should I be taking something for that. Any other specific accessories?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions folks.

You are wasting money. You have not out grown 500 test E yet. Your muscle growth will be no faster with all that other stuff thrown in. Save the wear and tear on your kidneys and your wallet and run test only. I personally advise running test only until you outgrow a 2 gram shot per week...which is never for people with less than 7 or so long cycles under their belt.

You are skinny because your diet needs work. You are wasting even more money not having your diet correct and using AAS.

My additional 2 cents is if you really want to grow do away with all but the test E and learn how to use insulin properly for muscle gain. It is the number one item other than test in my opinion. LEARN how to use it properly and be responsible...you will be amazed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chicagotarsier

You are wasting money. You have not out grown 500 test E yet. Your muscle growth will be no faster with all that other stuff thrown in. Save the wear and tear on your kidneys and your wallet and run test only. I personally advise running test only until you outgrow a 2 gram shot per week...which is never for people with less than 7 or so long cycles under their belt.

You are skinny because your diet needs work. You are wasting even more money not having your diet correct and using AAS.

My additional 2 cents is if you really want to grow do away with all but the test E and learn how to use insulin properly for muscle gain. It is the number one item other than test in my opinion. LEARN how to use it properly and be responsible...you will be amazed.

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Horrible advice about slin, last thing he needs. First you tell him doesn’t have to run all the other gear and he hasn’t outgrown 500 mg of test -ebut then he should use Slin.......Makes no sense.

Sticky note.........
cycle looks good to me if that’s how much you want to run it isn’t crazy. Just make sure that your diets been right and that you’re eating very well not just on cycle but all the time because that will be what helps you grow not all the gear. Just on the top of that I’m not a fan of running d-ball a drol in the beginning I like to run it the last four weeks when will my oil blood levels have stabilized that it really gives you some good gains.
One thing I tell everybody is if you weigh 160 pounds you’re only eating enough to be that weight, if you want to be 180 pounds you have to eat more to get that big or you never will get where you want to be.

Hopefully he's not hypoglycemic like me. Slin would put me in a coma

Normally I would say double the deca and cut the test in half, but if you never run deca before, might not be a bad idea to run a low dose

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Originally Posted by stickynote23

I was happy with the intro cycle overall but I wasn't happy with the routine (was primarily a fitness athelete for ~5 years and while I worked out religiously I didn't do enough muscle-building). My goal this time is to pack on more mass in the winter season, and have significantly adjusted eating/workout plan to fit.

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repeat the first cycle but with a proper diet and training routine

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stickynote23

3 yrs 'lifting/fitness focused' (lifting in winter combined with cardio, zero lifting and only outdoor hobbies during 4-5 summer months)
5'9"
160lbs (yes I'm light, goal is to stabilize at 180lbs @10-12%bf, any more than that and I'm going to start compromising my hobbies)

I was happy with the intro cycle overall but I wasn't happy with the routine (was primarily a fitness athelete for ~5 years and while I worked out religiously I didn't do enough muscle-building). My goal this time is to pack on more mass in the winter season, and have significantly adjusted eating/workout plan to fit.

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sounds to me like you want to pack on 20 pounds of muscle by running one cycle , rather then committing yourself to a year round lifting program to keep that 20 pounds of muscle . you can't workout half ass and not eat well and then not train at all for 5 months out of the year and expect to maintain 20 pounds of additional muscle.

I'd get your priorities straight . If your willing to possibly compromise your health and break the law by injecting these compounds in your body , why are you not willing to train and lift year round to put the size on you want ??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chicagotarsier

You are wasting money. You have not out grown 500 test E yet. Your muscle growth will be no faster with all that other stuff thrown in.
I guess that's one of the core questions here. I will not likely be cycling for multiple years, as that's not my goal here. So, is there going to be a difference at this point between muscle growth of Test-e vs Test-e/deca (controlling for additional calories req)? You seem to think not, but other threads seem to think it's beneficial. I'm not married to the idea of test-e/deca for sure but if it'll give me another few lbs on cycle it makes sense to do, no?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chicagotarsier

You are skinny because your diet needs work. You are wasting even more money not having your diet correct and using AAS.

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I may not have been totally clear on this in the first post. I'm 'skinny' because my goal is (was) 160. So when I say I wasn't happy with my eating/workout, I'm saying I wasn't happy with my goal. I just ate and worked out to my goal, which is exactly where I'm at. I'm pretty scientific about it. I have excercise logs for 311 workouts in 2016, 271 in 2017. AVG/MAX HR on each one, minutes of workout, type of workout, etc. Weight readings at 7AM three times a week stretching back three years, meal plans and calorie tracking sheets. If my goal was 170 I'd be 170 right now. I'm just saying in retrospect I didn't set my goal properly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BG

Just on the top of that I’m not a fan of running d-ball a drol in the beginning I like to run it the last four weeks when will my oil blood levels have stabilized that it really gives you some good gains.

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Thanks, I haven't seen that talked about as much. I will add it to my list to research, I appreciate it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Deadlifting Dog

repeat the first cycle but with a proper diet and training routine

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That's reasonable advice. Up to the first reply tho, will I gain a few more lbs with deca? I'm not looking to cycle for multiple years here. I'm leaving towards just repeating but I'd like to add deca if it'll be useful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

sounds to me like you want to pack on 20 pounds of muscle by running one cycle

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I'm aiming to stabilize at 180lbs (~20lbs) over 3-4 cycles. I think a lot of guys here have the goal of getting as big as possible, which is awesome. However I'm looking for put on 20lbs of muscle fairly quickly over a few cycles, and then train that muscle to be as functional as possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

If your willing to possibly compromise your health and break the law by injecting these compounds in your body , why are you not willing to train and lift year round to put the size on you want ??

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Cause my goal here isn't to be a bodybuilder. My goal is to look more muscular but retain the ability to do my sports. I go on winter trips where I'm tenting on a glacier for 4 days and putting in 15 hours of climbing every day. I can't be 220 and still pull that off.
I'd be able to do my hobbies better with 20 lbs LESS for sure, but there's a balance, and that's what I'm shooting for.

Anyway, while the "question my choice to not be as big as I possibly can be" is an interesting discussion that I'm okay with having, I'm still looking for some specific advice to my original question 2, 4, and 5.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stickynote23

I'm aiming to stabilize at 180lbs (~20lbs) over 3-4 cycles. I think a lot of guys here have the goal of getting as big as possible, which is awesome. However I'm looking for put on 20lbs of muscle fairly quickly over a few cycles, and then train that muscle to be as functional as possible

Cause my goal here isn't to be a bodybuilder. My goal is to look more muscular but retain the ability to do my sports. I go on winter trips where I'm tenting on a glacier for 4 days and putting in 15 hours of climbing every day. I can't be 220 and still pull that off.
I'd be able to do my hobbies better with 20 lbs LESS for sure, but there's a balance, and that's what I'm shooting for..

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I get what your trying to do . what I'm saying is what your trying to do may not be genetically possible or feasible. you say you can't be 220 pounds and be a bodybuilder . well I'm saying your right, you probably couldn't no matter if you did 100 cycles and trained daily for 5 years straight . former mr Olympias don't even have those stats (5'9" 220 pounds 10%bf).
so more then likely you do NOT have to worry about ever being 220 and ripped :)

what I'm saying is even getting to a muscular 180 pounds , while only training half the year and doing other hobbies that put you in a calorie deficit is likely to be very difficult for you , let alone ever getting to 220.

I'm not saying its not totally do able but 3 cycles in a short time may be very short lived when you spend 5 months of the year on the side of a mountain or whatever . you just don't take a few cycles and suddenly add 30 pounds of muscle and its yours to keep no matter what you do or how you train or eat . that new muscle mass requires stimulus, food, and more steroids to maintain . thats how it works .

if you were genetically meant to be 180 pounds and muscular and lean , then you'd be there already naturally . taking a few steroid cycles and then quitting is prob not going to maintain that for you.

in order to maintain my current size , I have to take around 400mg of AAS a week every week from now until forever . I can't imagine stopping taking the gear and only training 7 months out of the year . I'd loose 40 pounds . yet you expect to take a few cycles , get the size you want, and just maintain it without the proper training and continuing steroids ?


sure I know your only talking 20 pounds here , but your talking 20 pounds of pure muscle (not water and bloat), which is going to be difficult to maintain after quitting steroids and going into long phases of non training and calorie deficits .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

I get what your trying to do . what I'm saying is what your trying to do may not be genetically possible or feasible. you say you can't be 220 pounds and be a bodybuilder . well I'm saying your right, you probably couldn't no matter if you did 100 cycles and trained daily for 5 years straight . former mr Olympias don't even have those stats (5'9" 220 pounds 10%bf).
so more then likely you do NOT have to worry about ever being 220 and ripped :)

what I'm saying is even getting to a muscular 180 pounds , while only training half the year and doing other hobbies that put you in a calorie deficit is likely to be very difficult for you , let alone ever getting to 220.

I'm not saying its not totally do able but 3 cycles in a short time may be very short lived when you spend 5 months of the year on the side of a mountain or whatever . you just don't take a few cycles and suddenly add 30 pounds of muscle and its yours to keep no matter what you do or how you train or eat . that new muscle mass requires stimulus, food, and more steroids to maintain . thats how it works .

if you were genetically meant to be 180 pounds and muscular and lean , then you'd be there already naturally . taking a few steroid cycles and then quitting is prob not going to maintain that for you.

in order to maintain my current size , I have to take around 400mg of AAS a week every week from now until forever . I can't imagine stopping taking the gear and only training 7 months out of the year . I'd loose 40 pounds . yet you expect to take a few cycles , get the size you want, and just maintain it without the proper training and continuing steroids ?


sure I know your only talking 20 pounds here , but your talking 20 pounds of pure muscle (not water and bloat), which is going to be difficult to maintain after quitting steroids and going into long phases of non training and calorie deficits .

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Haha, okay yes that's reasonable, and an extremely good point. I guess I've been going off the assumption that I can add 20lbs of muscle over the next 2-3 years, and then keep it with doing the same amount of lifting and just eating to my new weight.

I'm willing to proceed with the risk factor that over time I may be in a situation where I need to run a cycle every year to add back the muscle I've catabolized, or else increase my % of workouts devoted to lifting in order to keep the mass.

Historically I've been 215 and mostly fat in my lazy years, and then once I picked up endurance sports I got down to 137lbs with almost no fat. I decided that sucked and got up to 150-155 mostly muscle and stablized there very well, then cycled to 160 and am pretty stable here. I am going to cycle again and am looking to get a few questions about that cycle answered, but yes I get your point that off cycle I may not be genetically disposed to keep the gain. I'll take the risk for now but I will for sure keep it in mind when I'm training off cycle. Thanks much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stickynote23

Haha, okay yes that's reasonable, and an extremely good point. I guess I've been going off the assumption that I can add 20lbs of muscle over the next 2-3 years, and then keep it with doing the same amount of lifting and just eating to my new weight.

I'm willing to proceed with the risk factor that over time I may be in a situation where I need to run a cycle every year to add back the muscle I've catabolized, or else increase my % of workouts devoted to lifting in order to keep the mass.

Historically I've been 215 and mostly fat in my lazy years, and then once I picked up endurance sports I got down to 137lbs with almost no fat. I decided that sucked and got up to 150-155 mostly muscle and stablized there very well, then cycled to 160 and am pretty stable here. I am going to cycle again and am looking to get a few questions about that cycle answered, but yes I get your point that off cycle I may not be genetically disposed to keep the gain. I'll take the risk for now but I will for sure keep it in mind when I'm training off cycle. Thanks much.

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ok well just wanted to help clarify a few things , keeping goals reasonable and attainable and sustainable results in better success. some guys new to AAS think they are magic and will fulfill any goal they have .

Truth is your average guy can take plenty of steroids and he will never put on a ton of muscle let alone look like a good bodybuilder . AAS generally help good bodybuilders (or gym rats) get better , thats it. but as powerful as they are they do not make average men into bodybuilders by any means (I understand bodybuilding is not your goal , just making a point that steroids are just a small tool and some guys have way too high of expectation as to what they will do).

having got that all out of the way, unto your cycle and I'll do what I can to help you out with that next post

for only your second cycle I wouldn't add in both D-bol and Deca at the same time. Reason is your adding in a progesterone based AAS in the deca, this is going to come with its own unique side effects that you may be sensitive and need to manage (like prolactin, progesterone induced gyno, nandrolone sensitivity etc.) , while also adding in a compound like D-bol that aromatizes a lot and into a much more powerful estrogen then Test does (plus water retention issues to deal with)

as good as Test, Deca, Dbol , cycle is , throwing the deca and Dbol together at the same time for only your second cycle is not the best idea . as I noted above all the new factors you may have to deal with.


personally I'd just go with test and D-bol for this cycle . learn to get really good at managing estrogen before you start throwing deca in there and having to deal with progesterone and prolactin too.

Test E - 500mg week 1-12
D-bol - 40mg per day weeks 1-5
D-bol - 30mg per day weeks 6-7
D-bol - 20mg per day weeks 8-10

I'm an advocate of the taper method with D-bol . running Dbol for only 4 or 5 weeks and then being done with it and pissing away all your gains it a waste . a longer run with a lower dose over time will allow your body to acclimate to the weight gain and you'll better be able to keep those, as well as the intercellular water and glycogen will help uptake amino acids into the cell and build more tissue over time.

your AI dosage is all person dependent and based on blood work . .25mg EOD is where I would start, starting at week 2 (I like to get an initial rise in estrogen at the start as this seems to speed up growth, at least for me)

running HCG the duration of the cycle helps some people recover better (plus they don't like ball shrinkage and HCG helps that too)

yes run liver support , TUDCA and NAC at least.

if you ran deca then you'd also need Caber or Prami to control prolactin .


thats a start :)

Why not keep simple for building mass? Testosterone (e.g. 500mg/wk) and up the calories: whole milk, cheese, beef, chicken with skin, rice, potatoes, etc. If you train hard, eat all that stuff in sufficient amounts, rest, and have a supraphysiological test level you will undoubtedly gain muscle

Awesome, thanks much, this is really well thought through and I appreciate the advice.

The original thought was to optimize, as always. But it seems like adding dbol and deca in the same cycle is just not needed. I'm gonna save the Deca. I got liver support for the dbol as well.

Pre-cycle blood done, I'll get another sample 6 weeks in to see if the AI dose is doing its job.

Thanks again, hugely appreciated.