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  1. #1
    cyclen is offline New Member
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    pro B.B. training, they dont practice what they preach

    i just recently purchased ronnies training video and was in shock. he trains horribly, yeah he lifts alot of weight but his form is worse than any uneducated guy in my gym he just flings the weight. has any one else seen this video the only thing he does half way decent is hack squats. one of my friends at my gym saw the dorian yates video and he said that he just flung heavy weight to. the thing that makes me really mad is that when u read there training articles in flex they say that they use perfect form, continuos tension and concentrate on the muscle being trained. i think that in the flex articles that they dont even interview the pros i think its weider putting words in their mouth using the weider training priciples. have i been training the wrong way should i start using momentum in my lifts. no i am going to continue to use the weider principles i think that the pros can get away with training like that because there on a shit load of drugs or mostly HGH. i train harder than coleman does i dont lift as much weight but i know i use more intensity and train harder than him? he only does 2 exercises for his biceps. Would like to hear some feedback on this subject.

  2. #2
    Big Al's Avatar
    Big Al is offline Retired Moderator
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    I disagree, having seen both videos, they train heavy and with more than adequate form. Especially dorian who offers text book form. Some of the Pro's do not have great form but don't be naive and assume drugs is all they have on you buddy.

  3. #3
    nevaenuf's Avatar
    nevaenuf is offline Senior Member
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    I havent seen the vids but they have to be doing something right. Look at them.

  4. #4
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    Dorian has excellent form...

    Ronnie has bad form on SOME exercises.

    I've always subscribed to the philosophy that your main concern should be lifting more weight than you did the previous time... even if form sacrafices somewhat.

    As long as you're constantly increasing the poundages you use and keep form reasonable enough to where you're solidly working the muscle you're fine- IMO.

  5. #5
    cyclen is offline New Member
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    yeah you would think that they were doing something right but u guys havent seen the videos. big al im sorry but they dont train good at all. ok guys ill explain how ronnie trains ok when he does t bar rows he brings his chest to the bar when he should be bringing the bar to his chest again he just flings it up there. his seated calf raises are done without making full contractions i mean no where close and hes constantly bouncing the weight. skullcrushers he doesnt have a full range of motion doesnt lock out. when he works his shoulders he moves his whole body to get the weight up using alot of momentum. when he does lunges hes basically just taking long steps he doesnt squat down at all very little. i recomend that yall buy the video to see what i mean and if yall think he trains good then not to be mean but then yall dont train good either. oh yeah and big al what do u have to say about the fact that in flex they preach all this good form and that its not about the weight its the form?

  6. #6
    gundam675's Avatar
    gundam675 is offline Senior Member
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    well for me i have added 40 lbs of muscle over a year with horrible form, i lift heavy. forget form, as arnold said " just get the damn weight up" jay cutler syas the samething, some form is good, btu the tension and stress is what u want ! if u wanna be big then go to the gym and as kevin levrone said "train for pain" ! thats all ! and listen bro, coleman's form is horrible, but who's bigger, u and the guys at ur gym or him ?

    regards !

  7. #7
    gundam675's Avatar
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    also another point to ponder is this. if u train heavy (i hope u do) then momentum does that shit to u. if u do like a 400 - 500 lb t-bar row, and ur 268 lbs (which coleman was in his movie) then obviously ur gonna have to jerk around brother. thats what bodybuilding is about. its about liftin the heaviest friken weight u can. i go to the gym 4 days a week, everytime i go i try hard to increase theweight, even if i can mange only 3 reps, i just get the fucken weight up lol ! when ur doing 5 plates on each side for barbell rows, ur gonna have to jerk up and down, if u watched dorians video closely he said this as well !

    regards again !

  8. #8
    gundam675's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclen
    i train harder than coleman does i dont lift as much weight but i know i use more intensity and train harder than him? he only does 2 exercises for his biceps.
    1. brother, lmfao at u ! u need to watch that video again ! ronnie coleman said his bicpes are already big enough, so he doesnt waste much time on them !

    2. u train harder than coleman, ARE U BIGGER THAN HIM ? LOL for life !

    3. i dont mean to get touchy, but i respect all the pro bodybuilders, most guys on the board will never , never come close to being what they are! the way they train, eat and focus is unbelievable. i think when u watched this video u forgot to check ur ego at at the front door when u got the video home.

    4. lastly, u mentioned all the drugs he uses. brother, even if u used as many drugs as him, im gonna put my money on the fact that u would never look like him! lol !

    this is no flame, i just get upset when people criticise the pro's ! i respect them to much and when people bash their ways, it pisses me off !

    regards !
    Last edited by gundam675; 07-17-2003 at 11:40 AM.

  9. #9
    cyclen is offline New Member
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    gundam i disagree with u when u jerk the weight its like making the weight lighter so why not just use weight that u can focus on and go to failure. oh yeah gundam what about his lunges i know that those arent even lunges. i never said that i would be as big as him or anything but from what i saw i do think that i train harder. oh yeah and to be able to maintain a bicep like that with only 2 exercises means u got to be juiced up pretty good. u cant say nothin about that.

  10. #10
    Pheedno is offline Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundam675
    1. brother, lmfao at u ! u need to watch that video again ! ronnie coleman said his bicpes are already big enough, so he doesnt waste much time on them !

    2. u train harder than coleman, ARE U BIGGER THAN HIM ? LOL for life !

    3. i dont mean to get touchy, but i respect all the pro bodybuilders, most guys on the board will never , never come close to being what they are! the way they train, eat and focus is unbelievable. i think when u watched this video u forgot to check ur ego at at the front door when u got the video home.

    4. lastly, u mentioned all the drugs he uses. brother, even if u used as many drugs as him, im gonna put my money on the fact that u would never look like him! lol !

    this is no flame, i just get upset when people criticise the pro's ! i respect them to much and when people bash their ways, it pisses me off !

    regards !
    Well, I get upset when members degrade the others, ignore a claim to flame, but put LOL and exclamation marks at the end of every remark.

    I understand you taking offense to the criticism of the pros(I'm sure they would never expect that ) but to presume the goals of "most guys on the board" is absurd. And to belittle this member for his opnion is unacceptable.

    You may of meant no offense, but I think you need to find a way to articulate your opinions so that they don't come off as a response to a personal attack.

  11. #11
    cyclen is offline New Member
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    oh yeah bodybuilding isnt about lifting the heaviest weight possible that would be called power lifting. maybe you need to think about what you really want to go for a powerlifter or a bodybuilder. u obviously dont read flex. i guess youve never seen any articles where ronnie and all the other pros talk about bodybuilding not being about how much weight u can lift. they also always stress using PERFECT form always.

  12. #12
    cyclen is offline New Member
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    thanks pheedno

  13. #13
    TheMudMan's Avatar
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    My philosophy is what ever works for you then don't change it.

    Me personally... I go heavy but not to compromise form. My reps are always between 12 - 8 so how heavy can I really be going. I don't need any injuries.

  14. #14
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    uhm brother, u r fogettin, his video is 5 week out from mr .oh actually 5.5 weeks out from mr olympia, he is obviously running hig hdoses of AAS to preserve muscle mass ! number 2, listen bro, if u lift light weight u wont grow. u need to lift very very heavy to grow. 6 - 8 reps. thats a fact. coleman has an incredible tolerance for pain and he trains hard, i honestly find it hard to belive when someone says they think they train harder then him ! now im sure ur gonna say well if i took all the drugs that he did i would be as big ! keep training the way u want, no one cares ! but coleman will keep training the way he does, he'll keep racking in the dollar bills and keep winning olympia ! so will jay, kevin, the whole nine yards of them.

    as for pheedno, bro get off my back, every post i make u bug me. i know i am ear marked by a number of people for shit that i say on this board. but i read my signature, i will give out the advice i see neccessary, whether people take it or not, it is up to them.
    i admit i do over-react, as u say, but thats me, thats how i work, we are MEN (most of us), we need not have the fucking sensitivity of 12 year old girls ! i mean i will not flame cause thats board policies but when someone makes a comment, good or bad, u should not get all hyper convoluted over it !

    i felt like posting this here cause this pops up sometimes, i will keep stating my opionion, i dont care if u like it or not. i wont flame or insult people, i will give them HONEST ADVICE THAT I
    SEE FIT ! if u have a problem with that just contact an admin and let him pm me !

    anyways, sorry to bring this up here, but i seem to be getting alot of bullshit from people on this board lately, mostly the same guys over and over again ! if u wish to discuss this matter with me then PM me !

    now as for this thread, coleman trains the way he does. he takes the drugs he takes. he obviously gets good results. if u want to use strict form, then use it, if u wanna train real heavy then momentum is gonna make u jerk, thats a fact !

    regards !

  15. #15
    nevaenuf's Avatar
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    I agree with gundam on this one. And even though I respect cyclen's openion, I also have respect for the pro bodybuilders who put out these vids to help us. They know that we are all trying to reach a goal and there just telling us what they do to reach theirs.

  16. #16
    BigGreen's Avatar
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    I do believe it is time for me to put out a training video...of course, I'll do all my lifts with bumper plates, so that to the average viewer, it'll look like I'm moving some MAD weight.

  17. #17
    cyclen is offline New Member
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    why do yall seem to miss the part about what they say in flex. what they tell us in flex is totally different than what they do in there movies. if i was to fling weight for 6-8 reps i would not get sore i will use perfect form with heaviest weight possible for 6-8 reps i will struggle with my last rep for 30 seconds and it will move very slowly and the pain is so intense this is how i do every set of biceps.

  18. #18
    cyclen is offline New Member
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    im talking about weight that is so heavy it is just rediculous u look at a guy in the gym and hes got the machine plates all on and hes swingin and yankin not putting the emphasis on the desired body part all of his secondaries and momentum are moving the weight.

  19. #19
    Pheedno is offline Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundam675
    if u have a problem with that pm me !

    !

    Your obliged

  20. #20
    BigGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclen
    why do yall seem to miss the part about what they say in flex. what they tell us in flex is totally different than what they do in there movies. if i was to fling weight for 6-8 reps i would not get sore i will use perfect form with heaviest weight possible for 6-8 reps i will struggle with my last rep for 30 seconds and it will move very slowly and the pain is so intense this is how i do every set of biceps.
    Cyclen, I agree with you in many respects. However, there are some individuals in Flex, Cutler and some others, who are VERY, VERY open about their sloppy training. When I get home, i'll dig up some of those training articles and PM you a few of their quotes if you'd like.

    On the other side, much of Coleman's "writing" in Flex, suggests that he trains with proper form, and attention to technique. As you state, his video largely demonstrates the contrary. His bent over rows are 'bent over' in name only, to name just one deviation from that which his articles suggest. That being said, this has CLEARLY worked for him. In fact, I've long suspected that one of the big differences between the pros and the rest of us is their ability to train on the edge of pure punishment that would either send most of to a month's worth of nursing an injury at worst, or at best stressing us to the point of catabolism. The way he trains has obviously worked for him. It may very well be the case that at a stage in the game similar to where "we" may be, he did train with strict form and such. However, I imagine that as one continues to go further and further beyond the limits of basic human physiology, that simply is no longer enough. Just my thoughts

  21. #21
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    I think theres a place in everyones training routine for sloppy form to move heavy weight. I do remember when Ronnie stated in Flex that "cheating cambered bar curls are the best bicep mass builder." And i totally agree, when training back i like to warm up with some strict cable rows then hit the bent over rows hard and heavy...and if i have to sacrifice form then so be it...just move the weight. Youve got to remember that when you put that extra stress on you body then you break down more fibers, and that means you grow.

    With biceps i love to start off with some cable curls and get a good deep burn, then move on to heavy ass cambered bar curls, or straight bars curls. I like to keep my first few sets kind of strict, but the last few just load the bar and hold on for the ride...get the bar to move thats my only goal.

    Now that is granted that you keep "somewhat" of a form so you stress the muscle...but i belive some cheating is essential.

    I think the pros cheat to gain more mass, they are already symetrical, more size will win the O

  22. #22
    Derek19yrs is offline Junior Member
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    Hey,
    The way they lift is called cheating to fail I saw a video of Flex lifting he was throwing dumbbells around. They are on lots of drugs and they train 6 hours a day so maybe they can't go so intense as everyone else.

    Derek

  23. #23
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    LOL...its all a joke. Flex and M&F sell everyone that bodybuilding bullshit for one reason and one reason only. Everyone is convinced it is how you do it and what you need to get big.

    You think they would actually print in there that you have to bust your ass and use heavy ass reps.. hahahah HELL NO! People love doing their supersets of 15 and all their curls, flies, and triceps movements.

    You look at about any pro, wether its bodybuilding, prowerlifting, or strongman and you will notice they all go heavy, stick more to the cores, and bust their ass. Fuck, Arnold was a powerlifter before a bodybuilder...gee wonder why...

    LOL I cant help but laugh. Some of the so called "splits" I see and people in the gyms kill me.

  24. #24
    Dustin4489 is offline Junior Member
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    I agree and disagree with all of you. As time goes on new training methods will prevail over other ones. I think now days it is good to have both principles. I think every body part you should start off with 1 or 2 core lifts and lift heavy. And for the other exercises for that body part try to focus on using the muscle with good form. I think everyone should incorporate both methods. And another thing is everyone is different. There are a lot of different body types out there. What makes my chest grow wont make your chest grow the same. Everyone is different. Also respect the pro's man. They bust their ass 24/7 365! Look at them...... Who wouldnt want to look like ronnie or jay?

  25. #25
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    Damn, I have used the max out style for a long time (go heavy 6-8 reps) and yeh you grow. For 2 months now I have decreased the weight and bumped the reps to 12-15. My incline dumbell went from 110 to 70. I can't see where I have grown any but the fibers in my pecs have seriouslly improved. I do get sorer at 15 reps and can get more flex in each movement. I do not know whats best. I do believe that at lower weights you mature the muscle more but I'm not sure about how much rip and rebuild your getting. I am going to stick with lower weights thru this cycle just because I know I will never be as big as though guys, I just love working out and playing football. Now on legs I still go as heavy as I can because face if you want that split across your thigh you gotta go heavy. There are little things like pushing with your heels on the leg press that make you go lighter but your isolating that muscle, so thats just how it works. I don't claim to know all since most of my experience when it comes to lifting was thru h.s. and college football. A wise man once told me that if you want to look like a power lifter then lift like one, if you want to look like a bodybuilder then lift like one. I personally listen to it all and do what works for me. Just my .02

  26. #26
    Maxima is offline Junior Member
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    I have seen Dorian's Blood and Guts. He seemed to have great form and real control over the weight. The only other video I have seen is Skip Lacour's (sp?) and he uses very sloppy form. But his lifts are nothing short of incredible with the poundages, 225 for bicep curls.

    If I go sloppy it is always on the positive, the negative (eccentric) is what really builds you. I think that you will make gains as long as you progressivly overload the muscle with a heavier weight.

  27. #27
    iron4life79's Avatar
    iron4life79 is offline Retired Moderator
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    the bottom line is this........

    most of us know what works for us. if you feel that your workouts arent giving you the growth or definition you desire, then try cheating a little, or taking a few sets to failure.
    mix it up......the same stale workout gets you the same stale results.

    peace I4L

  28. #28
    freddygunns is offline New Member
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    u have to find wat works for u watever they do works for them n theyre at the top of their chosen sport they found their niche now u must do the same i grow best on heavy weight with anywhere from 4-7 reps first 3 allways try to b perfect form then anything goes but thats me

  29. #29
    seven_five is offline New Member
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    Do what works for you, but don't forget to give credit where its due - we are talking about the patented "Weider Instinctive Principle"

    Seriously, I don't have the video's, but I've noticed bodybuilders saying one thing in Weider publications and another thing in their own book. This includes differences in form, reps, training split, etc. I think a lot of people don't even really want to lift weights, they just do it to "get in shape" and so they want to do it as easily as possible and M&F caters to that.

    I enjoy lifting. I like going to the gym, I like the pump, I like moving big weights (well, big for me, I know a lot of you guys move much bigger weights than I ever will). What sucks is that I'm sure training methods are advancing, but I don't feel like I can trust any of the magazines for accurate advice. "Get rock hard abs by next week in 18 seconds a day with out new workout!" Sure. . .

  30. #30
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    I didnt even read all of the reply's but I will say this..

    Form is only a guideline that enables your body the safest way of lifting while maintaining consistant and intense resistance. With that being said; just lift the weight that it feels like your getting the best pump and the most out of each contraction

  31. #31
    MBaraso's Avatar
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    Go hard or don't go at all...
    Form? Yeah it does matter, but when your on your 4th set of over the head shoulder press and you got 235lbs on the bar you push that shit out for 4, even if the spotter helps you on the last 2....Arch your back, do what ever u have to do to get those last reps in. That's MO

  32. #32
    Rsox1 is offline Associate Member
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    i have had expirience with both of these way in training and most of the time when these video's are shot they are in contest form and trying to go as heavy as possible to maintain as much muscle as possible, ronnie is very very slopy with his form but i in my mind would figure to support that much bodyweight you would need to lift as much weight as possible to even maintain your current size, All pro bodybuilder do not lift hard though, no one would ever believe me if i told them that i have seen pros preacher curling 25lb db' while talking to chicks about the night life but I have. Remember its a video they are going to play it up, and a lot of those plates are filler plates despite what anyone tell you, and if u think ronnie is sloppy take a lokka t skip lacour's traing video he is just plain scary

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by FKITLETSGO
    I didnt even read all of the reply's but I will say this..

    Form is only a guideline that enables your body the safest way of lifting while maintaining consistant and intense resistance. With that being said; just lift the weight that it feels like your getting the best pump and the most out of each contraction
    Why dont you tell them about your air lifting workout theory fkit.

  34. #34
    Twix is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclen
    yeah you would think that they were doing something right but u guys havent seen the videos. big al im sorry but they dont train good at all. ok guys ill explain how ronnie trains ok when he does t bar rows he brings his chest to the bar when he should be bringing the bar to his chest again he just flings it up there. his seated calf raises are done without making full contractions i mean no where close and hes constantly bouncing the weight. skullcrushers he doesnt have a full range of motion doesnt lock out. when he works his shoulders he moves his whole body to get the weight up using alot of momentum. when he does lunges hes basically just taking long steps he doesnt squat down at all very little. i recomend that yall buy the video to see what i mean and if yall think he trains good then not to be mean but then yall dont train good either. oh yeah and big al what do u have to say about the fact that in flex they preach all this good form and that its not about the weight its the form?
    Sounds to me that he does a lot of exercises with 3/4 range instead of full range. For some it keeps momentum and continusly works the muscles. I also have just started 3/4 reps on triceps because I have bad elbows... works just as good if not better than lock outs and saves my joints a hell of a lot of pain. There is also no rest period during the repetition and for some this type of lifting works great.

  35. #35
    FCECC2 is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MBaraso
    Go hard or don't go at all...
    Form? Yeah it does matter, but when your on your 4th set of over the head shoulder press and you got 235lbs on the bar you push that shit out for 4, even if the spotter helps you on the last 2....Arch your back, do what ever u have to do to get those last reps in. That's MO
    im totally with that to. form IMO is mostly to avoid injuries. go heavy and negative

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by nevaenuf
    Why dont you tell them about your air lifting workout theory fkit.
    Air lifting?

  37. #37
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    i just want to back up Dorian. His video is great, and he uses good solid form.

    The most important thing is not getting hurt. I've been hurt before through pushing too much weight, and during the last few years have used much better and slower form, and have had no major injuries (knock on wood) even though I still lift a good amount of weight. You can't grow when your at home due to a torn tricep................

  38. #38
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    Pheedno

    Here here old thing!!!

    I don't reply much on this board for fear I will pass on the wrong message to the newer bro's, or offer up a wrong opinion, and therefore I log in every day and read the responses....no matter what it is that is being discussed. I too am learning even after 18 years of training and several cycles.

    Gundam's "opinions" and "remarks" smack of sheer ignorance and continue to be a bane on this board. His feedback on topics such as Fina, Tren , and Test Prop recently leaves a lot to be desired as he's never even taken these meds. In fact, he has a comment on most meds, which he knows nothing about. He's done ONE cycle!

    I care not for the signature he's left at the bottom of his replies as it only proves that he knows nothing about what he is profering, and wants no flame directed back at him. Classic coward!

    Again, Gundam.....please do not reply to people's questions without the solid background you so obviously lack!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickleby
    In fact, he has a comment on most meds, which he knows nothing about. He's done ONE cycle!
    Not to defend any grossly erroneous information on the part of ANYONE, but that particular employment of criteria is approaching a somewhat dangerous standard of knowledge. My favorite English professor did not attend Yale Law School (in fact he didn't attend law school period), but I put near infinite faith in his ability to effectively guide me towards that goal for myself. Likewise, I have not yet completed a single cycle, but the intense research I put in to taking that step (easily close to two years of pure researching...starting at the bottom - friends who had used - and eventually working my way up to the top - this board) has made me, I believe, as knowledgable as guys who have done five or six cycles, perhaps moreso. Similarly, there are guys who have NEVER even so much as started a cycle, yet they know more about AAS in the course of their research than I will attain in quite some time.

    I've heard bad advice dispensed from guys with multiple cycles under their belt and gear virgins alike. Additionally, I've heard solid, solid advice from long-time users as well as guys who've never touched a needle. I think it is essential that we objectively evaluate the information first, then the source.

  40. #40
    Billy_Bathgate's Avatar
    Billy_Bathgate is offline AR Vet / Retired
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    I agree with gundamn actually.

    Maybe he was harsh in his other reply, but he seemed honest in his opinion. I dont think he meant it as a flame really, but is obvious how it could be seen as one.

    Ah well..train as you will

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