08-25-2003, 06:26 PM #1
Nolvadex, to run, or not to run...
That is the question.
Right at the begining of my Eq/winny cycle I noticed that my minor gyno left from teen years was puffin up a bit. I got some Nolvadex now but I've noticed that my chest has returned to normal, as normal as it was anyways. I know I really shouldn't need anti-e's with this cycle but I believe I am hyper sensitive. Would there be any any harm in running 20mg a day for the remainder of the cycle? Would it cause me to drop a little more water? Would it hinder my gains in any way?
Last edited by Nixter; 08-25-2003 at 06:50 PM.
08-25-2003, 06:49 PM #2
your avatar looks different.....
Honestly, I started taking 20mg novaldex after reading more about it.
- wouldn't affect your real gains. (only water)
- reduce gyno if prone (why risk - gyno is irreversible)
- wouldn't bloat (I liked bloating at first - now I hate it, especially in the morning)
- burn some fat (and won't have extra bloated fat stored)
- for me personally - I feel much better, when started taking - muscles look better (defenition) - got a bunch of compliments - but, I"m an older fart.....
I honestly, don't see any reason why not to take em
08-25-2003, 06:55 PM #3
Awsome, thanks for the reply bro! Yeah I changed my pic cuz I finally got one!. I think it helps for people to see what you look like when you are asking for AS advice.
08-25-2003, 07:43 PM #4Banned
- Join Date
- May 2003
Rookiejay some solid advice. I cant understand why so many guys on here dont take the time to learn more about Nolva. Why risk gyno when it is totally unecessary!
08-25-2003, 09:58 PM #5
Why risk gyno when it is totally unecessary!
good point... How much is the most nolve anyone here has taken, or least, I have been taken 10 mg just as to be precautious but do you think It is too little?
08-26-2003, 05:36 AM #6Originally Posted by Rookiejay
First of all, what Nolvadex does, is it blocks estrogen at cell receptor sites. So what are the pros and cons of having less estrogen?
Well, for one, estrogen helps with energy and endurance. You will feel more sluggish on Nolvadex(or Clomid or Armidex for that matter), and it this respect it can inhibit your gains. Also, estrogen is responsible for glycogen retention in muscle cells, so you will most likely feel much more tired after a fewer number of sets in a workout relative to being natural/on steriods . In addition, there is developing evidence in the scientific world that estrogen is also responsible for many more growth processes than was originally believed, so there may be even more potential help with gains.
Gyno is reversible, as long as you catch it early enough. I believe there are four stages of gyno development, and the only one which is permanent is the fourth stage. And, unless you are fat to begin with, you will be able to see the gyno developing.
Nolvadex does not burn fat at all, although estrogen is responsible for fat storage(especially in the glute/thigh area), so in that respect it will "burn" fat, although your body will simply distribute it elsewhere. You have to remember, the natural instinct for the body is to hoard as much fat as possible, to insure survival(although there is evidence now, if you were overfed as a baby, your body will be trained to think that too much food will be coming in during your life, and thus you will have a much higher metabolism).
The reason you see better definition is because Nolvadex helps with edema, or water retention, under the skin. Estrogen is responsible for water retention, so blocking it would cause the body to eliminate water. That is the "crisper" and "drier" look that so many athletes notice while on Nolvadex.
Bottom line: Nothing is free in life. If you decide not to run Nolvadex with your cycle, you will have high testosterone levels, as well as high estrogen levels, which will improve your gains. If you decide to run Nolvadex with your cycle(20mg ED is fine), then you will not notice any gyno, will be "drier", and you will have less energy and will not be able to train as hard as you would be able to. If I had to estimate, I would say that your gains will be inhibited 30% if you choose the latter approach. It is your life and the choice is yours.
My recommendation: If you would like my recommendation, do not run the Novladex with the cycle. You will be able to see any gyno coming on. The only case I would recommend it would be if you are trying to lose weight and become shredded while running testosterone with your cutting cycle.
Whatever you choose, choose wisely.
08-26-2003, 05:55 AM #7Originally Posted by WiLLpOwEr
I stole this from OG a while back. It's a good read with good info:
While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.
But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids . After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.
Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron , Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.
This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.
So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.
Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use , but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.
Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn't enough) is because it's a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn't have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that's mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.
Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.
Stacking and Use:
If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.
Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.
For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks.
08-27-2003, 09:53 PM #8
Thank you for the good info. I think I will save the Novladex and run it PCT with the Clomid I have.
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