conflict with HCG and clomid

[Solrock]

Is taking clomid while on HCG contraindicated for any reason? All of the posts I read indicate that clomid starts AFTER HCG. Why not take it during HCG treatment?

I am curious as to how each of you takes HCG. What are your doses and how do you space them?

[JohnnyB]

I've heard nolva works better with hcg . I'm using 500iu 2 days a week, through my cycle. I'll see how it works out and post it.

JohnnyB

[Solrock]

Yeah.. post that info... i was curious about running HCG through a cycle to keep things hanging. I have read in posts though, that frequent use of HCG can cause the body to not respond well. In some posts, it was mentioned that the HCG would shut down other hormonal control centers. For the record... I can not vouch for the science in the posts. It is just info that I have read on several occasions.

[Madmax]

hcg : hcg helps to bring the testes back quickly to their original condition, it does stimulate test production, but it does not help in correcting the normal hypothalamic/pituitary testicular axis. HCG represses the endogenous LH production.

clomid: clomid has a strong influence on the testicular axis. It stimulates the hypophysis to release more gonadotropin so that a faster and higher release of FSH and LH occurs. This results in an increase of your own bodies testosterone level...

i have ran hcg during my cycles and found it works great, i ran it at 500 i.u ed for 14 days....if your cycle is long enough and at high enough doses you should consider using it at the end of your cycle before clomid....alot of people take a shot of 500 iu every weekend...on sat and sunday....throughout there cycle....but do not over use hcg, it will make it less effective for later cycles..Madmax...

[painintheazz]

If you do them at the same time the HCG will defeat the purpose of the clomid/nolva. Run the HCG like a week before you start the clomid/nolva.

Pain

[Solrock]

Thanks MadMax. I am taking from what you wrote that there is no inherent conflict in taking HCG and Clomid, rather they just have different time frames in which to be used. Is this correct?

[Madmax]

Originally posted by Solrock
Thanks MadMax. I am taking from what you wrote that there is no inherent conflict in taking HCG and Clomid, rather they just have different time frames in which to be used. Is this correct?

hey bro, i re wrote it and hopefully clarified a little better.....do not run them concurent bro, that is counter productive...run one then run the other...hcg first and then clomid...Madmax...

[Solrock]

okay... thanks Pain and Madmax. that is what I needed to know.

[JohnnyB]

Here's an article that might help. It'll take a few posts so I can up the charts up.

Understanding Post Cycle “T” Recovery
by William Llewellyn


O.K. You have been on an awesome 4-month cycle of Sustanon and Dianabol . You’ve gained a massive 20 lbs, and are extremely pleased with your results. You can’t stop looking in the mirror. But there is a problem now starting to eat away at you. You are going to run out of steroids very soon (you know you need a break anyway), and your testicles are the size of raisins. Your body is producing less testosterone than a 9-year-old girl, and you are scrambling to figure out what to do to avoid a nasty post-cycle crash that could potentially strip away some of your hard-earned muscle. The opinions on how to restore endogenous testosterone production post-cycle seem to be different everywhere you look. What option is best? Without an understanding of exactly what is going on in your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing the right post-cycle program can be quite confusing. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the role of anti-estrogens and HCG during this delicate window of time, while detailing an effective strategy for their use.

The Axis
The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body’s natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.

Testicular Desensitization
Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.

Chart below is Post cycle LH Levels

[JohnnyB]

This is for first chart.

Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.


Chart below is, Post Cycle Testosterone Levels.

[JohnnyB]

The Role of Anti-estrogens


It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels , not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.



HCG


So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin , is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.



Finalizing the Program


An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly. Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added (my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.



Sample Post-cycle Plan:


Week Amount

Week 3:5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 4:5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 5:2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 6:20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 7:20mg Nolvadex daily

Week 8:20mg Nolvadex daily





In Closing


I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn’t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.


References:

1. Effect of long-term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function: Clinical evaluation, serum FSH, LH, Testosterone and seminal fluid analysis in normal men. J. Mauss, G. Borsch et al. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84

2. Desensitization to gonadotropins in cultured Leydig tumor cells involves loss of gonadotropin receptors and decreased capacity for steroidogenesis. Freeman DA, Ascoli M Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1981 Oct;78(10):6309-13

3. Acute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig Cells by Human Chorionic Gonadotropin In-vitro. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 76:4460-3,1079

Hope this helps.

JohnnyB

[Aguro]

So if i understand clearly not only this help for my ball but also help me keep my gain after my cycle??
Let me explain my situation, this is my first cycle and it considered low-dose...
1-5 25mg-30-35-40-35 dball
1-10 week 500 mg enanthat
13 clomid...

Since it my first cycle should i get my hand on some hcg ?
Or save it up for a stronger cycle say.. next year?

[JohnnyB]

That's not a low dose cycle Bro. I'd lower the d-bol to 20-25mg, your test is a moderate dose. I'd save the d-bol for another cycle, but it's your call. That cycle is better then a lot of first cycles I see.

There are 2 ways you can use hcg , to keep your testicles at normal size or to bring them back to normal size. The article showed you how to restore. To keep them normal, I've been hearing and this is what I'm doing. 2 consecutive days a week hcg 500-1000iu each of those 2 days, don't go over 1000iu a day.

JohnnyB

[Solrock]

Thanks JohnnyB... that was an excellent post. I have copied it into my library.

[Aguro]

Alright i am feeling great effect from only 25 mg so it would be good to keep it that way? i tough more was better.. heh.. Anyway.. Ill order hcg and a clen pump :P

[JohnnyB]

Originally posted by Solrock
Thanks JohnnyB... that was an excellent post. I have copied it into my library.

Glad it helped.

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

Originally posted by Aguro
Alright i am feeling great effect from only 25 mg so it would be good to keep it that way? i tough more was better.. heh.. Anyway.. Ill order hcg and a clen pump :P

If your already doing 25mg stay there for 4 weeks.

JohnnyB

[Aguro]

Yes great post johnny thanx alot!

[hybrid]

This was very informative. I tried a search a couple of days ago on this subject and got tired of sifting through posts and gave up. And now, here it is. Cool.

[maxx]

Originally posted by painintheazz
If you do them at the same time the HCG will defeat the purpose of the clomid/nolva. Run the HCG like a week before you start the clomid/nolva.

Pain

how about running HCG on sat/sun for a total of 1000 iu's. for the rest of my cycle. I have around 7 weeks left. the reason I wanna run this is cause, my balls are the size of penuts and I have no sex drive. I have started taking proviron , 50mg/ed.



and what do u mean by the end of the cycle. do u mean the last injection week or when the drugs are leaving your body?

[JohnnyB]

What's your cycle? I bet you don't have test in it. The sat/sun thing is ok, but at the end of your cycle you'll want to do 2000iu e5d, first one being the same day as last injection for a total of 4 injections with 20mg of nolva. Then start your pct at it regular time.

JohnnyB

[maxx]

Originally posted by JohnnyB
What's your cycle? I bet you don't have test in it. The sat/sun thing is ok, but at the end of your cycle you'll want to do 2000iu e5d, first one being the same day as last injection for a total of 4 injections with 20mg of nolva. Then start your pct at it regular time.

JohnnyB

here is my cycle:


week
1-4 dbol 40mg/ed
1-12 test depot 500mg/week
1-12 EQ Ganabol 400mg/week
+ clomid and nolvadex for post cycle.

I started runing 50mg/ed of proviron , on the begining of this week. my tool is acting a little better now.

but I did 600mg of eq a week for 3 weeks, I think that's why that happend to me.

[JohnnyB]

EQ did it to me, when I tried doing 3 weeks of eq then start test. This time started both at same time with test higher and every thing is working fine. Just out of curiosity what kind of brand of test are you running?

JohnnyB

[ichabodcrane]

Yeah, I agree with ya Johnny. I think alot of us are experimenting with the 500 U/weekend, and I like it. The traditional method was to run hCG in the middle of cycle for 2 weeks (first it was recommended at higher doses but only 2-3 times/week, ie. 1500-2500 U/shot, or at 500U/d) and again a similar regimen towards end of cycle. hCG has a terminal half life of about 1 day, so technically I would prefer ED injects to maximize stable blood concentrations. I have tried the 500U/weekends throughout and it worked very well. I have also done it mid and end cycle which also worked very well. I like Bill L's reasoning, but I tend to disagree when he says to only use it at end of cycle. I think it is much better to prevent atrophy, than to try and restore/revert it. When you wait til end of cycle to run hCG you are basically trying to restore or revert the atrophy. When doses (hCG) are kept low, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to run hCG weekends only throughout or midcycle. I don't like the thought of having my testicles go through the trauma of atrophy, when it can totally be prevented. Although in the past, when I was new to this game, I would only run hCG at end of cycle, if at all. I would let them turn into raisins, then pound them with hCG. They did come back everytime, but the testicles were not meant to be without LH stimulation. It doesn't seem healthy to let atrophy persue for the majority of the time when we have means to totally prevent it. What if they became too accustomed to, and decided to not respond at all one day? I know, maybe unlikely, but if you take a stimulus away from anything for long enough, it does what it has to maintain homeostasis at that new state. So better to not let things get too comfortable, when it provides for negative outcome in the longrun. So even though theoretically you may not need hCG until end of cycle, because you are shut down and staying that way until hormone levels reach a point to allow for endogenous hormone secretion, it just doesn't make sense to let the testicles atrophy during cycle if it can be avoided. hCG will do nothing for restoring HPTA while ON cycle, but that is not why we are using when on cycle. We are using it to PREVENT atrophy, so when d-day comes, the testicles will be ready to accept endogenous LH signal and begin test production. This way you don't have to worry about if the atrophy will reverse, because it never set in in the first place.
So now that you have taken care of the testicular part of the HPTA in the recovery puzzle (having the testes primed for endogenous LH signal), you can run the clomid which will hit the hypothalamus/pituitary region so that endogenous gonadotropins can be made. According to Bill, it would seem that one would not need this stimulus (clomid/nolva) because endogenous LH production is already high enough after cycle. This may be the case, and it would make sense because the body is sensing a decrease in overall testosterone and this would be a mechanism for trying to restore endo test production. But I don't know if this is always the case, as that study was pretty old, doses were relatively low, and we know nothing about subjects being tested or the metholodogy etc used. There may be many factors accounting for the increase LH in that study. But, we do know that clomid/nolva and other antiestrogens do act upon the hypo/pit. to increase endogenous gonadotropin release. So it only makes sense like Bill said, to "foster" this mechanism. It is almost too good of a thing to not go ahead and do. And if you think about it, because hCG is capable of inhibiting the hypo/pit. due to excess hormone levels, this may affect endogenous LH production while on hCG. We also know that because hCG acts just like LH, and we are providing supraphysiological amounts, we do get a rise in testosterone production which is very readily converted to estrogen at the same time. The the antiE's help to counteract this phenomena as well.
So it does seem (for the time being) that the use of hCG combined with clomid/nolva is optimal in restoring HPTA function after cycle and in helping to salvage the gains one has made while on cycle. But finding when to incorporate hCG into your cycle remains unclear to some. I would just make the comment that it is used to prevent/restore testicular atrophy. Whether one wants to use it as means of prevention or restoration remains up to them. But keep in mind that by allowing the testicles to fully atrophy during every cycle, mainly longer cycles (this may not always be the case, especially if running short cycles), you are possibly digging a hole, and that the total accumulation or time spent in testicular atrophy may come back to bite you. IMO, it is best used for preventing testicular atrophy. You can choose one of the two methods currently used: 1) 500U/weekends throughout, 2)midcycle use and end cycle use. If you were running short acting AAS at the beginning of cycle, you may notice atrophy sooner than midway and the weekend option may prove most beneficial for you. If you are only using longer acting esters, and you know maximal blood levels aren't reached until 4-6 weeks, you could play around with midcycle+endcycle use. I have done both, and they both work fine for me. If you are doing the weekends only, and find the dose if 500U to be insufficient, you can always tinker with the dose, or run a 2 weeker to maximize effects. But I would never go over total of 1000U/day in either case. One thing I have noticed with weekends only is that estrogen accumulation is not a big issue, but with mid and end cycle use it does tend to be more of an issue. So have your antiE's handy to use accrodingly. Remember that you don't want to start clomid/nolva therapy until you have cleared from your last injection, otherwise you will get no benefit, because you are still shut down. You need to be at a hormone level appropriate to allow for endogenous stimulation. In other words, your HP will not start pumping out endogenous LH if there is still ample amount of any AAS preventing this from happening. So know your half lives, and when to start recovery therapy.

[956Vette]

Wow, thanks for all the great info madmax, johnnyb, and ichabodcrane!
Just bookmarked this =)

[Money Boss Hustla]

Bump!

I like this post so much I bookmarked it too.

[Interficium]

Excellent post JohnnyB. I was doing some research for PCT on my first cycle, and that helped a lot.

[Surfárn]

My questiion is, is there a need to run HCG in every cycle? You have to use it to get your nuts back, or do they come back beut slower if you skip it?
Does everybody get smaller balls when on a cycle or just a few???

thought of doing: (first cycle)

Sust 500 / week 10 weeks
Dbol 25 / day 4 weeks
20mg Nolva straight through (+how many weeks 6?)

Should I add HCG also??
P.S im 22 years old