Were you at your natural limit before you juiced ?

**like2juice** · 09-16-2003, 03:47 PM

Were you at your natural limit (or close to it) before you juiced ?

Do you think you will be at a disadvantage if you start using AS before you have reached your natural limit ?

I personally don't believe that it is a problem if you juice while you are still gaining naturally, as long as you know how to train,eat and rest for optimal results. The reason why I feel many people advise against it is because they think that people are using AS to make up for a crappy diet and/or workout routine.

Also I don't feel that using AS before you reach your natural limit will have a negative effect on your overall potential as a bodybuilder. I mean look at Arnold, he started using AS way before he had reached his natural limit. And there is no evidence of androgen receptors downgrading.

So what do you think about it ?

**Da Bull** · 09-16-2003, 04:14 PM

Wanna get big,start using gear a low levels and check out novice cycles.Stertslow and learn.

**BUYLONGTERM** · 09-16-2003, 04:20 PM

Unfortunately no.

***JohnnyB*** · 09-16-2003, 04:21 PM

I agree with what you said, most people that want to start because they can't gain or reach their genetic potentional, is because their diet, training and recovery suck, that why they can't make gains.

The way I look at it is, juice is going to give you a % of your body weight when you start. So the earlier you start the lower the total weight of that % will be.

Think about it, a 250lb man and 155lb man, which one do you think is going to be able to put on a higher total of weight for juicing. Say you could gain 10% of your body weight on your first cycle, one would gain 25lbs and the other 15.5lbs.

So I think the more muscle mass you have before juicing the better chance you have of putting on more mass from juicing. JMO

JohnnyB

**the dent depot** · 09-16-2003, 04:26 PM

I think I was at my mental limit...what I mean is that I didn't have the same "hunger" I used to have for BBing. When I got into the AS sub-culture, it opened a new exciting window. My workouts had new meaning, and even now that I'm off cycle...I'm still training feeverishly. I don't want to waste what I worked so hard to build. And then there's the anticipation of the next cycle!

D

**like2juice** · 09-16-2003, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Think about it, a 250lb man and 155lb man, which one do you think is going to be able to put on a higher total of weight for juicing. Say you could gain 10% of your body weight on your first cycle, one would gain 25lbs and the other 15.5lbs.

So I think the more muscle mass you have before juicing the better chance you have of putting on more mass from juicing. JMO

JohnnyB

Interesting theory bro, I agree. But the smaller guy would just have to run more cycles, he would still gain as much size as he would if he had waited till his natural limit IMO.

**like2juice** · 09-16-2003, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by Da Bull

Wanna get big,start using gear a low levels and check out novice cycles.Stertslow and learn.

Thanks for the help bro, but I've done plenty of research on AS and I'm not new to the iron game, just relatively new to the dark side (starting first anavar cycle in a week).

**Da Bull** · 09-16-2003, 04:46 PM

why not dbol & deca then drop dbol after 6wks,go deca 12wks and @ week 7 start 500mg Test en. for 7 wks,finish off with clen for 3-4 wks

**NoLimits** · 09-16-2003, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Da Bull

why not dbol & deca then drop dbol after 6wks,go deca 12wks and @ week 7 start 500mg Test en. for 7 wks,finish off with clen for 3-4 wks

You need to research just a bit more before you give advise like this!!!! That is an absolutely absurd cycle.... Please... NO ONE should follow this cycle!

**RoNNy THe BuLL** · 09-16-2003, 04:58 PM

Honestly, no.

**like2juice** · 09-16-2003, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Da Bull

why not dbol & deca then drop dbol after 6wks,go deca 12wks and @ week 7 start 500mg Test en. for 7 wks,finish off with clen for 3-4 wks

Thanks but I'm not looking for cycle advice in this thread bro.

I'm running an ox only cycle (for strength) at 40mg a day for 7 weeks with Nolva for PCT. Next year I will be running a test/eq cycle and becoming a full member of the dark side.

***JohnnyB*** · 09-16-2003, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by like2juice

Interesting theory bro, I agree. But the smaller guy would just have to run more cycles, he would still gain as much size as he would if he had waited till his natural limit IMO.

I don't know if he would or not, juice can only get you so far, then you need to add some slin, hgh or LR3 IGF-1 for more gains. I believe you go further if you have reached your genetic potentional, before having to add the slin, hgh or ifg-1 to the mix to get more muscle. But the fact is it's only therory because we could never know for sure. No one could try both ways to see which one was better.

Juice is an aid not and end all to lack of gains. Food, training and recovery is the determining factor in all mass cycle. All it's for is getting you passed your genetic potentional. If you use it to get you to your genetic potentional, I would say you run the risk of, not get much passed that.

JohnnyB

**bermich** · 09-16-2003, 05:40 PM

I feel my natural limit is 10 lbs heavier now. Without even trying to gain weight I now stay 10 pounds heavier without losing the weight.
I feel I can now gain more weight easier and faster if needed.

**tmeoe** · 09-16-2003, 07:09 PM

I have a different outlook on genetic potential which will probly be opposite of what most guys here think.

We are not predisposed to a certain body type. This obviously proven with AAS. A person can dramatically alter the physical shape of there body given the proper conditions.

I believe that AAS will benefit those with experience the most and has nothing to do with genetic potential. Someone who never works out will not see the same results an athlete who has trained for years will see of his first cycle. Now take someone who has worked out for 5 years (A) compared to someone who has worked out for 2 years (B). Lets say both used the same split and had the same diet and were both 170 when they started. They both do the same cycle, would BBer A get more gains than BBer B? Even so would it be a significant amount?

Genetic potential in my opinion will only limit you in height, if BBer A was 6' 5" and BBer B was 5' 8" then BBer A has a larger frame to put on mass, thus making A seem as though he is bigger. But BBer B could be just as strong as A even though he is smaller.

I do not believe that your supposed genetic potential will limit how much you can gain off AAS compared to the next guy. There are far to many variables to prove a statement involving genetic potential. This is not to say one could conceivably add 200 pounds of mass from AAS. At some point the body will not be able to hold anymore mass.

**Calipso** · 09-17-2003, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by bermich

I feel my natural limit is 10 lbs heavier now. Without even trying to gain weight I now stay 10 pounds heavier without losing the weight.
I feel I can now gain more weight easier and faster if needed.

So your statement basically says: After doing AS, you feel you can gain more naturally than before your first cycles?

***JohnnyB*** · 09-17-2003, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by tmeoe

I believe that AAS will benefit those with experience the most and has nothing to do with genetic potential. Someone who never works out will not see the same results an athlete who has trained for years will see of his first cycle. Now take someone who has worked out for 5 years (A) compared to someone who has worked out for 2 years (B). Lets say both used the same split and had the same diet and were both 170 when they started. They both do the same cycle, would BBer A get more gains than BBer B? Even so would it be a significant amount?

No, B would more then likely add more weight. You example leans toward the genetic potentional therory. If BBer A has been lifting for 3 years, then BBer B comes along at year 3 and trians 2 years with the same diet and training split. BBer B has better genetics, now this is if they both started at the same weight and height when they started lifting. But no one will ever really know because this is all therory.

I think it comes down to what you want out of you training, diet and recovery. If you haven't gained all you can naturally and want to add juice to the mix, I would say your not going to go much passed your genetic potentional. Because juice won't chance your diet or any other bad habits you have in your training. Now if you reach your genetic potentional then add juice to the mix, I think you'll go futher because your training, diet and recovery are in order.

It comes down to individual decision, what you think is best for you. Because we all have to live with your decisions in life.

I've seen guys that are 6'-1" have done 5-6 cycles and can't get to 200lbs, why, I believe because they started to early. They started because they weren't making the gains they wanted and thought juice was a magic potion for muscle. When they should of looked at their diet, training and recovery, these 3 are the most important factors in gain and maintaining muscle, add juice to those 3 and you can gain more.

JohnnyB

**like2juice** · 09-17-2003, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I think it comes down to what you want out of you training, diet and recovery. If you haven't gained all you can naturally and want to add juice to the mix, I would say your not going to go much passed your genetic potentional. Because juice won't chance your diet or any other bad habits you have in your training. Now if you reach your genetic potentional then add juice to the mix, I think you'll go futher because your training, diet and recovery are in order.

I agree, but you're assuming that just because someone has not reached their natural limit their diet/training is not optimal, which is not always the case.

I am still of the opinion that if a guy starts juicing when he is 175 pounds he will be able to get just as big as if he had waited till he was 220 pounds before juicing. The guy who started AS at 175 would have to do more cycles to get to his overall limit but he would also reach his overall limit faster than the guy who waited till later to juice.

***JohnnyB*** · 09-17-2003, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by like2juice

I agree, but you're assuming that just because someone has not reached their natural limit their diet/training is not optimal, which is not always the case.

I am still of the opinion that if a guy starts juicing when he is 175 pounds he will be able to get just as big as if he had waited till he was 220 pounds before juicing. The guy who started AS at 175 would have to do more cycles to get to his overall limit but he would also reach his overall limit faster than the guy who waited till later to juice.

So your saying that the only way for the 175lb BBer to gain as much as the 220lb BBer, is he has to do more cycles, so the 220lb BBer has to stop doing cycles so the 175lb BBer can catch up.

You're proving my point.

Who stops cycling, most of us want to be as big as we can be. So my guess is the 220lb BBer isn't going to stop and is going to do as many cycles as the 175lb BBer.

Who do you think will be bigger then?

JohnnyB

**tmeoe** · 09-17-2003, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by like2juice

I am still of the opinion that if a guy starts juicing when he is 175 pounds he will be able to get just as big as if he had waited till he was 220 pounds before juicing. The guy who started AS at 175 would have to do more cycles to get to his overall limit but he would also reach his overall limit faster than the guy who waited till later to juice.

Well wouldn't it be possible to build up a tolerance which would stop you from continouly getting good gains from a cycle. Also, a guy who was 175 and starts juicing at 220 will probly get less gains than someone who starts juicing at 175, like JB said. The person who starts at 175 will put themselves at much more risk for sides and bad health in general than someone who waits.

**like2juice** · 09-17-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

So your saying that the only way for the 175lb BBer to gain as much as the 220lb BBer, is he has to do more cycles, so the 220lb BBer has to stop doing cycles so the 175lb BBer can catch up.

You're proving my point.

Who stops cycling, most of us want to be as big as we can be. So my guess is the 220lb BBer isn't going to stop and is going to do as many cycles as the 175lb BBer.

Who do you think will be bigger then?

JohnnyB

No you've misunderstood my example. The 175pound guy starts juicing BEFORE the other guy, the other guy WAITS untill he is 220 pounds, by this time the other guy will already have a number of cycles under his belt.

**like2juice** · 09-17-2003, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by tmeoe

Well wouldn't it be possible to build up a tolerance which would stop you from continouly getting good gains from a cycle. Also, a guy who was 175 and starts juicing at 220 will probly get less gains than someone who starts juicing at 175, like JB said. The person who starts at 175 will put themselves at much more risk for sides and bad health in general than someone who waits.

There is no evidence of androgen receptors downgrading.

I do agree with your point about side effects and the health risks.

**JohnDoe1234** · 09-17-2003, 10:06 AM

I have a head ache already. This sounds like Abbot and Costello's "Who's on first?" routine.

**tmeoe** · 09-17-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by like2juice

No you've misunderstood my example. The 175pound guy starts juicing BEFORE the other guy, the other guy WAITS untill he is 220 pounds, by this time the other guy will already have a number of cycles under his belt.

Its seems like your assuming that there is no end to the gains you can get from AAS. If thats the case then even if the guy at 175 has more cycles the guy who starts at 220 will be much heavier after doing the same amount of cycles as the first guy.

Waiting to get your natural limit to AAS will help you if your goals are to be as big as you possibly can. Lets say that the guy who starts at 175 only wants to get to 200, well even though he didn't wait to get to his natural limit he still reached his goal.

***JohnnyB*** · 09-17-2003, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by like2juice

No you've misunderstood my example. The 175pound guy starts juicing BEFORE the other guy, the other guy WAITS untill he is 220 pounds, by this time the other guy will already have a number of cycles under his belt.

Bro I'm not trying to bust your balls here. It doesn't matter who starts first, in the end the 220lb BBer is going to gain more. Because at some point their both going to stop making gain. That's why pro's use hgh, slin and IGF-1 to get bigger.

Look at it this way. 2 builders are building houses and both can only be 1 story houses. Both lay a foundation 1 for a 2000 sq ft home and the other for a 1500 sq ft home and they build. Once the homes are done the 1500 sq ft builder adds a second story to have more space then the 2000 sq ft home and ends up with 3000 sq ft, the home is bigger. The the other builder say i'll add a second story, he does and has a 4000 sq ft home. No matter what the 1500 sq ft builder does he'll never be able to have a bigger home, because the other guy built a bigger foundation.

JohnnyB

**Warrior** · 09-17-2003, 10:20 AM

Why wait until you have reached a natural limit. If you do, then you'll probably be quite a few years older and unable to maintain your gains from a cycle. If you reached your limit - then thats it... just cause you run a cycle doesn't mean your endogenous androgen levels will be able to maintain your new mass. If you wait - then you probably end up having to bridge.

But I do strongly agree that you should have a very solid build to begin with. An advance athlete knows what makes his/her body tick and what injuries he/she is prone to. As well as an increased number of androgen receptors. A beginner is more likely to grow to fast and hurt him/herself.

I think more appropriatly, your current knowledge (or the knowledge of your coach) should exceed your current conditioning.

**Rickson** · 09-17-2003, 10:31 AM

I think what is being left out here is the supporting structure. When someone starts steroids without having allowed for joint, tendon, supporting muscles, and tendons to mature and strengthen he begins to limit his overall potential at least to a certain extent. Some people have the genetics to overcome this obstacle but for the majority of us after some rapid strength and muscle gains we begin to bog down because the supporting base has never been able to catch up to the muscle mass thus limiting our ability. Then it becomes a race against age to see if we can ever catch that base up while avoiding injury and overtraining. I firmly believe I could have added another 15 lbs of muscle had I waited longer naturally.

**punk_bbuilder** · 09-17-2003, 10:34 AM

Unfortunatly, i was far from my natural limits...I have regrets

**like2juice** · 09-17-2003, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Bro I'm not trying to bust your balls here.

lol yeah I know bro, its an interesting discussion I'm glad you're giving me your input on the matter.

Nice example you gave with the builders, it showed me how you are seeing things, and I have to say that is the logical way of looking at things. However, I still disagree (please tell me to shutup if you are getting sick of this discussion

).

You see I still think the limit to gains coming from AS will be weight dependent NOT dose dependent i.e as the guy has the exact same genetics he will stop gaining from juice once he reaches a certain weight, that weight is determined genetically and therefore what weight he juices at would have no impact on it IMO.

**Testify** · 09-17-2003, 12:28 PM

I agree 100% Rickson. If you cannot avoid injury, or sustain the intensity of your training because of an underdeveloped support system (i.e. bone density, muscle/tendon/ligament strength & maturity), then it will not matter that much how many cycles you do. Your injuries, serious or nagging, will always prevent you from progressing at a consistent pace. Your physical limitations will always dictate the limits of your strength.

I do not know enough about the genetic potential vs. artificial ceiling debate to form an opinion at this time though. But I love reading this stuff. I remember a similar debate on these boards several weeks ago, that I also found interesting (Is there a point C?) that touched on this. I wish I remembered the name of the thread.

To answer the question though, no. I had not reached my genetic potential - in fact, I don't know anyone who has. I had a solid base, and so I feel fortunate that, as an uneducated newbee, I was able to build on that base and not be limited as much as someone with less training. Frankly, I am shocked that a quarter of respondents say that they did reach their genetic potential before turning to AAS.

T

***JohnnyB*** · 09-17-2003, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by like2juice

Nice example you gave with the builders, it showed me how you are seeing things, and I have to say that is the logical way of looking at things. However, I still disagree (please tell me to shutup if you are getting sick of this discussion

).

Bro I wouldn't do that, we all have your opinion on this and this is the place to discuss those idea. I know I had some ideas that changed as time went on, maybe it'll change again or maybe yours will

JohnnyB

**bermich** · 09-20-2003, 02:55 AM

Natural limits. Some people can just look at weights and gain muscle while others need to do twice the work and gain half the results.
There are tons of people who dont even need to work out and they are solid as all hell.

**bermich** · 09-20-2003, 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by Calipso

So your statement basically says: After doing AS, you feel you can gain more naturally than before your first cycles?

NO. Im not saying that. Gaining more naturally as opposed to staying at a HIGHER natural level.
If I eat at a natural level I will stay at 180
Where as before my cycle, my natural was 170.

This has nothing to do with the test but does have to do with my cycle.

While on my cycle, I upped my calories to 5500. Because of my changed eating habbits for 3 months, my body is now acustomed to dealing with high calorie intake and can adjust to that easier.

The body learns how to convert the calories mor efficiently rather than trying harder to burn them off.