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  1. #1
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    Question ANy one ever heard of this?

    I have a new supplier andwas looking to get some more anavar . But he offers two kinds.
    Ttokkyo labs 5mg tabs-100 for $190
    which I've used before. But he also has these tabs-

    Oxandrolone 10mg pale yellow. at a buck a tab. And they're from "the CHina man" aka "**"

    I don't really understand it. Has anyone heard of these? Which should I get?

    THanks for the help.

  2. #2
    arthurb999's Avatar
    arthurb999 is offline Anabolic Member
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    yep ** tabs are good.

  3. #3
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks, have you ever used those tabs?

  4. #4
    arthurb999's Avatar
    arthurb999 is offline Anabolic Member
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    I've used his winnie and arimidex ... both worked great. I get the expensive shit from him... the price is right. btw, he makes 50mg winstrol .

  5. #5
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    I saw those, DO you think they would be more beneficial then the anavars? Are u a member of SW?

  6. #6
    arthurb999's Avatar
    arthurb999 is offline Anabolic Member
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    What are you trying to accomplish... give me some stats (age, height, weight, body fat, workout experience, and goals) and we'll take it from there.

  7. #7
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    6'3", 215 lbs. 15 percent bf. 22. Not concerned with getting lean at all. REally want strength gains. But weight would be nice. I really am worried about side effects so I am trying not to do anything thats teally dangerous. But my living situation prevents me from injectables.

  8. #8
    arthurb999's Avatar
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    Bro, if your ready to enter the world of juice, you gotta use the injectibles; otherwise, you will not get the gains you expect. I was afraid of the spike at first, but now I love the sight of 2cc's in a syringe... Perhaps you could leave it at your workout partners place or stash it good.

  9. #9
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    Ok, heres the deal, I played last year in the arena football league. I graduated the year before from a D-1 university. I had seen lots of guys use but I was still growing and didn't want to screw it up. I am done growing now but get paid little with my arena league job so I have a part-time job so that I can still work out every day and do fb stuff. But I room with a guy on the team in the same situation. He is really anti steroid and I know he would turn me in. I can hide orals, but not injectables. Also I will admit I'm a little scared of the needle. But I really want to start out small with these. I don't expect freakish results. But I think mine are in the range that these can offer.

  10. #10
    Lono is offline New Member
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    What would you guys say is the percentage of legitimate oxandrolone in the black market? I've seen all sorts of stuff available:

    [# of tabs] [dosage] [price (usd)] [price (usd) per mg]

    100 10mg 300$ .3$/mg
    100 5mg 175$ .35$/mg
    30 2.5mg 105$ 1.4$/mg
    100 10mg 150$ .15$/mg
    100 10mg 110$ .11$/mg
    100 10mg 200$ .2$/mg
    100 20mg 550$ .275$/mg
    100 40mg 1000$ .24$/mg

    The 2.5mg tabs above are supposed to be SPA. Others are **, Ttokkyo, or Generic (spain). I have heard, better yet, read that some are suspected to have some oxandrolone with d-bol (explaining certain aromatization symptoms), and some don't have any oxandrolone at all.

    Tackle78, is this what approx. what you have found? Have you tried primo tabs?

  11. #11
    Lono is offline New Member
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    If given a choice, all else being equal, what would you choose:

    anavar 50 mg/day
    primo tabs 100 mg/day

    Both at the same price per day. Which one would more likely be legitimate?

  12. #12
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    Well I don't know lono, I haven't tried them. I tried the Ttokyo labs stuff and got good results but its damn excpensive. I was hoping to find out with these

  13. #13
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    Well I don't know if you mean a tab that size or a cycle like that. I think the anavar would prolly be better. Thats alot of anavar a day. I hope I can afford that much gear. Primo helps you get cut and I don't want to get cut though.

  14. #14
    Lono is offline New Member
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    I know what you mean... "you get what you pay for", right?
    I mean, I would think, from the little list I posted, either some guys are loosing money or just plain scamming. Or maybe Their stuff, for some reason unknown to me, their just cheaper.

    I was thinking primo tabs cuz they seem to be less affected by counterfeits, but I have heard mixed stuff about that too.

  15. #15
    Lono is offline New Member
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    They both have similar action, theyre both strong at the AR receptor.... whether you get cut or not it depends on your diet. they both make it easy to maintain muscle mass at low caloric intake periods.... or so I've heard.

    I'm talking per day, 50mg anavar or 100 mg primo tabs, say a certain number of weeks, hum: 8.

  16. #16
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    I don't know which is more counterfited. I would guess that anavar is because of its price and its demand. But I don't know. I am by no means an expert. Ive just listened to these guys and done alot of research.

  17. #17
    Lono is offline New Member
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    same here... I haven't tried anything yet, but have been doing some strong research for about a month.

  18. #18
    Lono is offline New Member
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    Here's what I've gathered:

    Primo is easier on the HPTA and on the liver than anavar . Anavar may give you slightly better gains, but you keep more of the gains from primo. Anavar is more available, therefore, more prone to counterfeits, that is not to say, however that primo is not counterfeited. By primo, I mean the tabs.

    Both are anabolic , with no aromatization and relatively weak androgenic properties.

  19. #19
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    I don't know about that. I did one cycle of anavar and kept 100% of the gains. COmpared to most thats really good. I honestly don't know THAT much about primo, I always put winnie tabs next to anavar because primo is more prone to fat burning from what I understand. With anavar you really get no size change

  20. #20
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    arthurb999 is offline Anabolic Member
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    If you can hide tabs, you can hide injectibles. The vials are not that big. Brovel labs injectibles are cheap too. If you want power at a good price, go with:

    400 mg a week Brovel t200 for 10 weeks
    400 mg a week Brovel Deca for 10 weeks
    35 mg of dbol everyday for the first four weeks
    800 mg of milk thistle everyday with the dbol starting 10 days before ending 10 days after the dbol (protects you liver)
    Clomid at the end 50/100/50 3 weeks after last injection
    Novladex on hand in case of gyno but 0.25-0.5 mg of ** arimidex would be better (it minimizes water retention and protects against gyno.
    ***4000 cals, 300 grams of protien a day***
    Break up the shots into 2 shots a week, Sun and Wed... one cc of each for a total of 2cc a shot.

    Do that while eating like there is no tommorow (but clean), training as hard as you ever had, and getting 8 hours of sleep a night and YOU WILL GET FUCKING JACKED.

    Enjoy!

  21. #21
    Lono is offline New Member
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    by Bill Roberts - "All else being equal, methenolone acetate is an excellent oral steroid drug. Unlike most other orals, it is not 17-alkylated and does not have liver toxicity problems. It is perhaps only half as potent by the oral route as by injection, so dosages need to be high, at least 100 and preferably 200-300 mg per day, but if that can be afforded it is an excellent drug. It is unusual among oral steroids as being Class I, binding well to the androgen receptor.

    The problem is that Mexican Primobolan tablets are simply too expensive per milligram, and too few mg per tablet, to be practical for a male bodybuilder. In some European countries, however, 50 mg tablets are available at a reasonable price, and are a good buy for those who can obtain them.

    The claim, however, that methenolone acetate tablets help burn fat, as a result of being acetate esters, is purely a myth. The compound has the same LBM-sparing properties when dieting as does injected Primobolan, which is to say, it is quite useful if dosage is sufficient.

    For females, dosage should not in my opinion exceed 30 mg/day, and even this may cause irreversible virilization problems. If a woman must try steroids , 5 mg of methenolone acetate twice per day would be a reasonable starting point, if modest results are acceptable."

  22. #22
    Lono is offline New Member
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    by Bill Roberts - "Unlike most oral steroids , which are Class II steroids giving most of their anabolic effect by means other than the androgen receptor (AR), it seems that oxandrolone probably does have good binding to the AR, and is therefore a Class I steroid , while having little other effect. By itself it is considered to be a weak anabolic.

    Partly this is due to its apparent lack of non-AR-mediated activity. This can be corrected of course by stacking with a Class II steroid such as Dianabol , Anadrol , 4-AD, or nor-4-AD: the latter two steroids require high blood levels which are not obtained by oral use of the powders.

    The other part of the reason for this is that bodybuilders make unfortunate and unreasonable comparisons when judging anabolic steroids . If say 8 tablets per day does little, then the drug is pronounced useless or weak by the user. But that is only 20 mg/day, or 140 mg/week. Does 140 mg/week testosterone give much results? No. Few anabolic steroids give dramatic results at that dose. Per milligram the potency is reasonable, but each individual tablet is weak because the dosage is small.

    Because of its high price, very few bodybuilders have taken large doses of oxandrolone. There is a single case in the medical literature (Forbes et al.) where it is reported that a competitive athlete self-administered 150 mg oxandrolone per day with remarkable gains. This is of uncertain credibility because unless urinalysis was done to verify that no other steroids were taken, there is no way to be certain that the athlete did not actually take more drugs than he reported. In any case, at current prices, only the quite wealthy could afford such a dose. I personally have tried 150 mg/day and considered it somewhat effective, but not dramatically so, and not a preferred regimen.

    Oxandrolone does not aromatize or convert to DHT, and has a longer half life than Dianabol - 8 hours vs. 4 hours. Thus, a moderate dose taken in the morning is largely out of the system by night, yet supplies reasonable levels of androgen during the day and early evening.

    Oxandrolone shares the liver toxicity problems common to 17-alkylated steroids. At one time it was thought that it did not, but both clinical and practical experience with Oxandrin has shown that at doses of 40 mg/day and higher, liver toxicity is indeed an issue with prolonged use.

    Primobolan , I believe, should be considered a superior compound, offering the same activity at (usually) a lower price and without the alkylated-toxicity issue."

  23. #23
    Lono is offline New Member
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    Ok, I'll probably try both to see how I react to them. I just want to make sure that what I get is real. Anybody has any significant info on avoiding counterfeits of these two substances (anavar , primo tabs)?
    Last edited by Lono; 12-28-2001 at 09:36 PM.

  24. #24
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks arthur, I really wanted to stick oral though. COuld you please just give suggestions on that. I understand that ingectables are safer and more effective but I want to stick with orals. SO please give me recommendations in that area. Thankyou.

  25. #25
    arthurb999's Avatar
    arthurb999 is offline Anabolic Member
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    I really don't know... oral only cycles are not good. You should only use 1 oral at a time because they are 17aa... which means tough on your liver. Winnie gets you strong and lean as long as your diet is in check. You might want to seek a second opinon on this but maybe try:

    100 mg of ** winnie everyday for six weeks (take it in 2 doses)
    1000 mg of milk thistle everyday starting 10 days before and ending 10 days after... protects your liver
    Clomid for 3 weeks (50/100/50) starting 3 days after last winnie pill.
    Drink 2 gallons of water a day

    See what some of the other guys think... I never tried this myself so I really don't know.
    Last edited by arthurb999; 12-28-2001 at 09:48 PM.

  26. #26
    Lono is offline New Member
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    Tackle78... I'm also trying to stick with orals.

    What I'm planning on doing is stacking d-bol with either primo or anavar . They're supposed to go pretty good together since one does its thing through some non-AR binding path (d-bol), and the other (primo or anavar) binds well on the AR.

    You could use anadrol instead of d-bol, I guess.

  27. #27
    arthurb999's Avatar
    arthurb999 is offline Anabolic Member
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    Originally posted by Lono
    You could use anadrol instead of d-bol, I guess.
    A-bombs are hardcore, not for the novice user.

  28. #28
    Lono is offline New Member
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    You have to remember though, that everything that protects your liver, when taken while on gear, will minimize the effectiveness of the oral.

    That would be one advantage of using primo with d-bol, since primo is not 17aa.

  29. #29
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    Well I did a anavar cycle at 35mg per day and gained alot of strength and like 5 lbs but I have never tried winnie and want to go bigger this time

  30. #30
    Lono is offline New Member
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    by Bill Roberts - Like methandrostenolone (Dianabol ), oxymetholone does not bind well to the androgen receptor (AR), and most of the anabolism it provides is via non-AR-mediated effects. It is therefore a Class II steroid and is best stacked with a Class I steroid. The drug appears to give the same benefits as Dianabol. Unlike Dianabol, however, it seems that oxymetholone is progestagenic. It has been observed to cause nipple soreness or to aggravate gynecomastia even in the presence of high dose antiestrogens, strongly suggesting that the effect is not estrogenic. That effect can be reduced by concurrent use of stanozolol (Winstrol ), which is anti-progestagenic. This progestagenic effect of oxymetholone is only a concern when using aromatizing steroids . With androgens such as Primobolan , oxymetholone stacks very nicely and is a surprisingly friendly drug. In contrast, with testosterone it is a very harsh drug.

    Anadrol does not convert to estrogen, and thus antiestrogens are not required if no aromatizable AAS are being used. However, in concert with aromatizing drugs, Anadrol is notorious for worsening "estrogenic" symptoms, possibly by producing progestagenic symptoms which the bodybuilder confuses as estrogenic, or by altering estrogen metabolism, or by upregulating aromatase.

    Compared to what bodybuilders expect of it, the drug is reasonably mild when no aromatizing steroids are present. I consider its potency approximately comparable to Dianabol. It is not unusual for a first time user to do quite well on an Anadrol-only cycle, but more advanced users will want to stack with another steroid. Typical use is 50-150 mg/day, which should be divided into several doses per day.

    Because oxymetholone is 17-alkylated, it is stressful to the liver. It is better to limit use to no more than 6 weeks or preferably four weeks before taking a break of at least equal length. Many users feel that it is more effectively used in the beginning parts of the cycle, rather than in the last few weeks.

  31. #31
    arthurb999's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Lono
    You have to remember though, that everything that protects your liver, when taken while on gear, will minimize the effectiveness of the oral.
    Are you sure about that? I've never heard that before. Why would milk thistle minimize the effectiveness of say oral Winstrol ?

  32. #32
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    by Bill Roberts - Contrary to what many would expect, this compound is actually only a weak agonist of the androgen receptor (AR), with poor binding. It follows, then, that its value must mostly come from non-AR-mediated effects. It is therefore a Class II steroid . Since it is not very effective in activating ARs, it should be stacked with a Class I steroid that is effective in this regard, such as Primobolan , Deca Durabolin , or trenbolone acetate. There is no point in stacking it with Anadrol , which has similar activity -- one ought to simply use the more appropriate drug. With testosterone or Deca , Dianabol is to be preferred; with Primobolan or trenbolone acetate, Anadrol is to be preferred (though Dianabol is still a good choice) because Anadrol does not aromatize. For an oral-only cycle -- something I don't recommend -- Anadrol is the better choice in my opinion for that also, at 150 mg/day (preferably divided to 3 or 6 doses.)

    Methandrostenolone converts to estradiol via aromatase. The amount of this conversion may be reduced by use of Arimidex , or less preferably Cytadren (see previous articles discussing dosage and dose pattern.) Or if the conversion is allowed, Clomid may be used to block adverse estrogenic effects.

    Irreversible hoarsening of the voice has been seen in some women from very few tablets of Dianabol: one per day for a few weeks. For this reason, in the 1960s doctors decided to end what had been a fairly common practice of prescribing this drug at one tab per day to women as a "tonic." It is not a good choice for the woman who chooses to use anabolic steroids .

    The usual dosing for men is 25-50 mg/day in divided doses, preferably four or five doses. The drug is 17-alkylated and so use should be limited to no more than 6 weeks, and preferably no more than four weeks, with at least an equal amount of time off.

  33. #33
    Lono is offline New Member
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    Originally posted by arthurb999


    Are you sure about that? I've never heard that before. Why would milk thistle minimize the effectiveness of say oral Winstrol?
    It helps the liver breakdown the substance, therefore, rending more of it ineffective. I remind you that I have not taken anything yet... this is just what I have researched. I would think it would be better to do the cycle and use milk thistle after the cycle.
    Last edited by Lono; 12-28-2001 at 09:57 PM.

  34. #34
    arthurb999's Avatar
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    I strongly recommend not using anadrol in your first cycle. Especially not an anadrol only cycle. People use it (and dbol ) to jumpstart their cycle; they use it while waiting for their injectibles to "kick in".

  35. #35
    arthurb999's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Lono


    It helps the liver breakdown the substance, therefore, rending more of it ineffective. I remind you that I have not taken anything yet... this is just what I have researched. I woul think it would be better to do the cycle and use milk thistle after the cycle.
    I always thought that 17aa's passed no matter what and the milk thistle just helped your liver function better under stress (like a lube job so to speak). Not really sure though.

  36. #36
    Lono is offline New Member
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    I think, IMO, people underestimate orals. I mean, for most of the 70's wasn't that all the pro's really had?

  37. #37
    tackle78 is offline Junior Member
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    A steady stream of anavar will prolly do alot more for you than anadrol ever will, not to mention you will keep virtually no gains with anadrol.

  38. #38
    Lono is offline New Member
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    Well, yes, it does help the liver work better under stress.... in lay terms, it does it by taking some of the liver's burden on it's shoulders.

    It also helps on the regeneration of the cells, which, if the cycle wasn't abusive, that with a little bit of time it's all you need.
    Last edited by Lono; 12-28-2001 at 10:06 PM.

  39. #39
    Lono is offline New Member
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    Originally posted by tackle78
    A steady stream of anavar will prolly do alot more for you than anadrol ever will, not to mention you will keep virtually no gains with anadrol.
    Yes... but read the articles I posted, I think they make some sense. The best thing to do would be to stack or combine one class or schedule I steroid with one of the class or schedule II. Know what I mean? Since they stimulate in different ways, they would complement each other, maybe even synergistically (spelling?).

  40. #40
    Lono is offline New Member
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    ON LIVER PROTECTION:

    Fenugreek: This is an annual herb that's native to the Mediterranean. It's officially known as Trigonella foenum-graecum or Greek hay. Research indicates that Fenugreek has the potential to help in the regulation of blood sugar (through its active component known as 4-hydroxyisoleucine), in addition to reducing blood cholesterol. It's also known to improve insulin and glucose response to glucose challenges (eating an entire box of Twinkies) and it may increase appetite.

    In short, fenugreek is good for keeping your cholesterol in check, stabilizing blood sugar and promoting muscle growth through efficient uptake of glucose into the muscle cells. The typical therapeutic dosage is 1.5-2.0 grams per day of the extract, or 6 grams per day of the whole seed.

    Milk Thistle: This plant neither contains milk or thistles, but rather is a fruit that has been used medicinally since Greco-Roman times. The official name for Milk Thistle is Silybum marianum. It's also known as blessed milk thistle and St. Mary thistle. From a therapeutic standpoint, it's important to concentrate on the extract of Milk Thistle.

    There are three principle components or active constituents of this herb. The flavanolignans silybin, silychristin, and silidianin are collectively known as silymarin. Silymarin makes up 1-3% of Milk Thistle. Silymarin has been found to play a role in human regeneration of liver cells after damage from alcohol and/or liver disease (hepatitis, cirrhosis); as a treatment for promoting wound healing (for example, in burns); as an anti-inflammatory agent; and as an anti-oxidant. It can also decrease elevated liver enzymes induced by drug usage.

    Silymarin is thought to alter the structure of the outer cell membrane of liver cells, thus preventing penetration of liver toxins into the cell. In this manner it may help protect your body against potential damage from substances that are solely or partially metabolized in the liver. Further research points to silymarin having the ability to increase the action of nucleolar polymerase A, which in turn, promotes protein synthesis and the regeneration of liver cells, while having anti-oxidant action.

    Finally, the components of silymarin, chiefly silibinin and silichristin, have been found to actually imitate steroid hormones (the ones we like!) by stimulating protein synthesis via enhancing DNA activity in a non-select manner. This means that silymarin may further potentiate your muscular growth while protecting your liver.

    In summary, when using Milk Thistle, look for brands that contain at least 140 mg silymarin per serving. Research indicates that a dosage of 200-400 mg silymarin per day is best (taken in two equal divided doses) for obtaining a therapeutic and protective effect.

    Soy Lecithin and Soy Phospholipid: Lecithin that's derived from the soy seed and that contains 73-79% phosphatidylcholine has been shown to have pharmacologic effects. The soy phospholipid is rich in the essential fatty acid linoleic acid. The German Commission E (their equivalent to the FDA, but more progressive) has approved soy lecithin and phospholipid for moderate disturbances in fat metabolism (especially high cholesterol), along with neurological disorders and liver disorders (fatty liver and substance, induced liver damage, and hepatitis). It seems that both of these soy-derived agents have no estrogenic effects, but rather can help the liver stay healthy, while providing benefit to the heart.

    The Merck Index classifies lecithin as a lipotropic, meaning that it can aid in fat metabolism. Anybody who's concerned about their cholesterol levels or drinks alcohol more often than recommended, as well as those people who use pharmaceutical agents, should include soy lecithin and phospholipids in their daily diet routine. The data from German documents and studies indicate that the recommended dose for lecithin is 3.5 grams per day and soy phospholipids is 1.5-2.7 grams per day.

    Artichoke Leaf: Believe it or not, there are constituents of the artichoke leaf that have been found to have pharmacologic effects. The active components include phenolic acids (chlorogenic and cynarin), along with lactones, glycosides, phytosterols and other minor items. Artichoke leaf has been used since Roman times as an aid for liver dysfunction, a sluggish gallbladder, and as a diuretic. Don't dismiss this funky looking vegetable!

    Medical studies from Germany and other European countries indicate that artichoke leaf is useful for lowering cholesterol, promoting the forward flow of bile (aids in fat metabolism), and protecting the liver, along with having mild appetite stimulating effects. Other clinical trials also indicate that artichoke leaf can help reduce dyspepsia (bloating, abdominal pain, flatulence and nausea). Perhaps artichoke is the natural Propusid!

    The British Herbal Pharmacopoeia, The Merck Index, and The African Pharmacopoeia all approve or indicate that artichoke leaf at a dose of 500 mg extract, or 6 grams per day, of the dried cut leaf can both be liver protective and stimulating. It's important to note that the product you use has approximately 10-60 mg of cynarin (the major active component) per serving.

    Boldo Leaf: Introduced to American and British physicians in 1875 as a treatment for mild stomach, liver and bladder discomforts, and as a mild sedative, its therapeutic applications are underappreciated. In fact, recent excavations in Monte Verde, Chile has revealed Boldo was even used over 12,000 years ago. There's even evidence that this plant can have mind-altering effects when chewed.

    Boldo's active components include alkaloids, essential oils, glycosides and tannins. Animal studies suggest boldine has the ability to reduce inflammation via altering prostaglandin synthesis. Further research indicates that Boldo may relax smooth muscle and prolongs intestinal transit (giving your body a better chance to absorb as many nutrients as possible). Probably the most important aspect of Boldo to people who may engage in steroids or other pharmacologic aids is that new studies strongly point to this herb enhancing liver function (maintains liver function in response to toxic agents) while promoting the healthy metabolism of fat.

    As with many medicinal plants, there's a component of Boldo that has toxic effects. Avoid any Boldo preparation that contains ascaridole. When using Boldo, look for it to contain at least 0.1% alkaloids, calculated as boldine and flavonoids. The typical dosage therapeutically is 3 grams of dry herb per day or 3 milliliters of a fluid extract.

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