10-13-2003, 08:52 AM #1
Question about the endocrine system and thoughts
This post regards the endocrine system, if you do not have a solid understanding of it you need not read further. I decided to post this in the steriod forum because I know that many of the members that work in the endocrine field spend the majority of their time here, and I need an answer by tommarow(I would have posted earlier but I did not know about this question yet). Thank you for understanding.
On to my question. As every steriod user knows, our hormone levels have a great influence on our thoughts. A few examples would be how a steriod user becomes more sexually aggressive and socially hostile(because of the extra testosterone ), when a patient with ADD calms down when taking Ridalin(from inhibiting a neurotransmitter I believe), or when serotonin is released after a patient recovers from an illness and a feeling of "a new beautiful world-type high" is experienced.
But, if all of our thoughts all dependent on our hormone levels, how does the feeling of "justice being done" produce satisfaction? What hormone is released that gives us this feeling; or what area of the brain deals with this feeling?
I need to know by tommarow because I am going to argue this point with my philosophy professor. He believes that our thoughts are not determined by our amount of hormones present but by our phenomilogical existance(our experiences, and the mind having a free will), and I believe that we are determined by our present hormone levels.
One final question: If you are into philosophy, should I agrue that "justice" is merely a societal invention, or should I take the aforementioned hormonal explanation?
Thank you everyone for your support.
10-13-2003, 10:39 AM #2
Dude i can´t answer your question but i will definitely agree with you on your point to your professor.
Teenager´s behavior are like they are because of all these hormones floating (everyone says that but they won´t stop t think that when we are juicing we do just the same)
My ideas/thoughts while on juice are completely different. Stanozolol played a number in my head the first time i took it, Test makes me feel like a million bucks, etc.
I can say that teenager´s behavior due to hormonal changes and ours when on only differ because our behavior is a result of input/analysis/response.
Input is not controlled by us completely, everyday´s life and people´s interactions with you are never 100% predicted, it is a complex net. However, analysis will differ by the way you face things, and this is where i think hormones and neurotransmitters play the biggest roles. Someone with a low serotonin or dopamine output will face things always worse than someone with a high output. For instance, someone who gets fired from a job and looks for another one, sings when doing everyday´s shit and so on (someone that is "happy") has a high output of both or either one of these two neurotrasmitters (of course that is more complex than those two, but this is just to simplify a line of thought).
The way you face life is directly linked to your brain chemistry. And your brain chemistry is directly influenced by androgens/estrogens. Ever wonder why so much people complain theyn behave like bitches when on clomid? Clomid is a synthetic estrogen.
Now getting back to input/analysis/responde mechanism, our analysis will depend on hormones set, neurotransmitters, previously received inputs and responses with their impacts on your life. Response will only then exist.
So i guess you´re completely right and your professor is right too. Experiences AND hormones are what determine our behavior/life facing characteristics.
Of course your professor has never taken Ecstasy pills (serotonin discharge is the main actor on its effect) nor roids (impacts whole brain chemistry) so his behavior was pretty much never heavily changed because of some drug, he is a non believer.
Ask him if he knows why people like drugs?
Why women have bigtime mood swings while on their periods?
Why men behavior is so different than women?
We all know the answer but we never come to think about it as much as we should.
People will jump at me on this one but justice is determined by common sense sensation of "doing the right thing/punishing" but picture your father punishing you for something "bad" you have done. Picture someone else´s father whose kid did the same shit you did and did not suffer any punishement, because his dad didn´t face what he´s done like something bad (not because he faced it the same way your dad did but does not like to punish).
Justice is just the same shit, only difference is that it is a consensus of several people. There is no real truth, it is only a matter of who makes the consensus.
Klu Klux Klan sense of justice is well known. For them, they are doing justice nonetheless. Their sensations of justice when burning homes and shit is just the same as someone who locks them in a cell.
Countries justice vary a lot. Why is that?
So both you and your professor got a point.
This is a judgment you make inside of your head and relies on your personal experiences. Imagine of you were grown in a community where beating women was justice. You would have it as a "right thinh" when judging in your head.
And i don´t think anyone will be able to determine which neurotransmitters (and what hormones inffluences it) your sense of "justice being done". I don´t think there is an area on ytour brain discharging something or acting when you sense justice being done.
I edited this post because i forgot to mention that i had this philosophy professor at junior high that taught me the same shit your professor is trying to defend now. Problem is he has a license to say things that people take as always right.
I know you already know pretty much all i said in this post. Though i think it is very important for everyone to pay attention to his own behavior when "tweaking" his hormone/neurotransmitter levels to grow or just to party, so they will analise it better before hurting someone or getting in trouble.
Last edited by WallyGator; 10-13-2003 at 10:59 AM.
10-13-2003, 12:32 PM #3
Wally thank you for your response! It was very, very well written.
You may some great points. Espically the parts about the ecstasy, and the differences between males and females. I will use these points tommarow.
I understand that justice is not a real truth, and is determined by the observer. Proof of this is your description of a wife-beater, and how he feels that "justice" is done when he does so.
But I was really looking for was some type of neurological/anatomical explanation(I know this is a very complicated field, and is not even fully developed yet). I liked your argument that "justice" is really dependent upon your memory of what correct justice is. I fully agree with this; and I am assuming as of right now that the sensation of "justice being done" is the release of certain neurotransmitters when one's memory matches up with the current situation in front of them.
Thank you for attempting to answer this question as best you could.
10-13-2003, 02:17 PM #4
Let me know how it goes tomorrow. I am looking forward to hear what your professor has to say.
10-13-2003, 05:08 PM #5
Bumping for additional comments/suggestions.
10-14-2003, 08:30 AM #6
For Wally and those who have been following this post:
Well, the class was over, and unfortunately he decided to move onto another topic. We talked about the differences between animals and humans, and he referred to my few examples that I talked about yesterday. So my feeling is more or less that he did not mean that he believed that hormone levels have no effect on thoughts, but that someone who followed phenomilogy would believe that.
But I came armed with information ready at my side, and I learned and furthered my belief. So I benifited greatly.
Thank you again Wally. If you ever need me for anything let me know.
10-14-2003, 09:10 AM #7
Next time just dissolve an Ecstasy Pill on his drink and he´ll notice a small change, LOL - just kidding
It is just as i said on the previous reply, professors and doctors are people with licenses to say whatever they want and people trust on them. I can mention endless situations where i heard bullshit from doctors and professors on several issues, not only roids.
I have this friend who got an abscess, took him to have it drained because he only warned me several days after getting the infection. The doctors on the E.R said so much bullshit i had to take him to another hospital and tell he was bit by a spider.
I am glad to see someone carries the same line of curiosity i do, shoot me an email or pm, or even create an open topic so we can exchange ideas on that topic.
You wouldn´t believe how much knowledge i was brought to just by observing friends using roids after knowing them for a while! It is like observing people´s behavior whenever they get drunk! Everyone reacts different, some behave like assholes some get funny... you know how it goes...!
10-14-2003, 09:11 AM #8Originally Posted by WiLLpOwEr
There was a study done (1993) that found men higher in endogenous testosterone production were less likely to marry; once married, they are more likely to leave home because of trouble marital relations, extramarital sex, hitting or throwing things at their spouses, and experiencing a lower quality of marital interaction.
Another study (1991) tested male offenders. Offenders high in testosterone commited more violent crimes, were judged more harshly by the parole board, and violated prison rules more often than those low in testosterone. Interesting enough, as cortisol concentraions increased, the corelation between testosterone and violent behavior dropped. This could be explained from less testosterone aromatizing to estrogen and instead binding to glucocorticoid receptors... since estrogen aromatization has been linked to increased aggressiveness...
IMO - the human bodies hormone levels most certainly effect how we react to and view our surroundings. But our previous experiences also effect our tollerence to social and econmical changes during our life. For example, if you lost a close member of your family your system would release less depressents if losing people close to you during your life was very common...
10-14-2003, 09:34 AM #9
Warrior i read similar studies and i can see a close relation on that behavior. Howerver i don´t believe there is a general rule for that. I have a high natural testosterone production that naturally aromatizes to estrogen for the whole life (love handles and chest fat, plus blood tests) and i can assure you estrogen makes me LESS AGGRESSIVE and LESS COMPETITIVE. When i take exogenous test without anti-e´s it gets even worse. Then i take femara and i feel like hitting the iron 24x7 and feel like doing some sort of physical activitie.
I am the most peaceful man i know, i cry at sad movies (even before taking roids and clomid LOL) and shit, never hit anyone and whenever i get into a fight it was only because i had NO OTHER OPTION. I have never hurt anyone phisically, even when fighting, i just don´t feel like it. I like to drop my violence playing soccer and hitting the iron. This is even before dealing with ROIDS so i can tell you that high estrogen levels in my case makes me more peaceful.
As for the part of not wanting to marry or having sex with other people when you are having a relationship i won´t deny. It is high test output, no doubt, plus other shit. Maybe it is just because chicks in Brazil dig into guys who workout (even if you look average)
I definetely agree with you that we are only taking in charge physical stuff, there´s certainly more on that than what meets the eye but i won´t come into real philosophy here, each one has his own beliefs and we can go on that if you want on emails. That´s just sometimes we sometimes behave like computers, the software is our hormones and taking roids will tweak our software (take instinct as an example, can you control your will to fuck and defend yourself on danger situations?).
And everyone who has a clue on his own behavior changes while on roids or any drug please get into this discussion, it will only lead us to further know ourselves.
Last edited by WallyGator; 10-14-2003 at 09:40 AM.
10-14-2003, 10:33 AM #10
Since it is a new topic in itself here is a thread I had posted last week on Estrogen-Related Aggression. It may not be estrogen itself that causes increased aggression but more the total increase in hormone levels - test+estrogen (maybe even progesterone in from progestins).
But yeah - thats a generality... of course some guys with high endogenous levels of testosterone can move on to very successful marriages and relationships... probably due to meeting a very compatible partner and/or having a positive history with the opposite sex (starting with total respect of one's own mother).
And how your body reacts to different hormones and chemicals verys not only between species, but also sex.
But to see a how hormone levels effect our general disposition, you can just look at the differences in men and women. A survey (1991) of 560 college age men and woman found significant gender differences. Adult men reported more physical and verbal aggression than did woman. Men also had higher scores on measures of impulsivity and lack of frustration tollerance than did woman, while woman were more likely to avoid confrontation.
Winning vs Losing - I was just looking at two other studies that looked at the responses to winning and losing that shared the same results. "Winners had higher testosterone levels than the losers - with no significant difference in close and decisive contests. Mood was depressed in decisive losers... perception to winning or losing, regardless of actual performance, differtially influenced testosterone levels but not cortisol levels, and that changes are not simply general arousal effects but are related to mood and status change (1989)." "Winners reported more positive mood change and higher testosterone levels than did a neutral group that did not win or lose money (1992).
10-14-2003, 11:08 AM #11
I apologize in advance for not answering your questions very well - or directly. I stuck more to the hormone/thought part of it -- but I'm posting to add some insight, hopefully.
In some respects this is a "what came first" type of arguement (the chicken or the egg ).
There is a genetic surge of hormones in puberty, that obviously did not come about because one thought they should. However, a teenager can make a decisions to do good or bad - and both be attributed to hormones - though they are decisions/thoughts acted upon.
I'd say our thoughts are not determined by our hormones, though greatly influenced by them. In other words, a teenage male has a strong flow of hormones that are urges him to have sex, but how he decides to act on this urge is independent (somewhat) of the hormonal situation. He is not a robot totally at the mercy of his hormones (though there are exceptions).
The body/mind is a whole, which makes it difficult to explain such a dichotomy.
He believes that our thoughts are not determined by our amount of hormones present but by our phenomilogical existance(our experiences, and the mind having a free will), and I believe that we are determined by our present hormone levels.
Food for thought -- though perhaps not very helpful. I like the *********/behavior part of this thread - which I think fits here more.
10-14-2003, 12:52 PM #12
I'd also agree that being human is both a matter of living by principles that are entirely separate from "hormonal influence" and having behaviors that may be entirely so, even despite one's principles. It seems to me that an aggressive man may feel justified in beating his wife for no good reason but even he will admit once the heat of hormonal passion is gone that what he did was wrong -an injustice. And while hormones may well have contributed to the behavior they don't make the behavior "correct" as a result, and that's rightly or wrongly the universal concept of justice. No one takes a hormone level test before prosecuting someone for a crime, though it seems to me it could well be a mitigating influence that, unlike alcohol or drug use, one has no control over.
10-14-2003, 12:53 PM #13
Totally agreed. No one said we are robots. You expressed it great when you say that no one is a slave of hormones. That is why we have a complex inteliggence behind our external actions. However, what we feel like doing is mainly part of this hormonal/chemical balance.
One of the first classes you have on phsychology college (at least here in Brazil) is about the human being needs. Instinct is what we are programmed in the most basic level to follow.
Hunger - it can lead you to kill in order to eat and grant your body´s survival. You can choose the foods you like most where you live and you don´t have to kill anyone to fight for food - just a fancy way of granting our instinct. If someone threatens you your instinct of survival will ultimately make you fight. Testosterone will only make you a better fighter, and run from less fights but ultimately you will fight for survival. You can´t just not eat or not fight when someone threatens your life and you can´t run. Sex, yes we have the will to fuck because we are programmed like a software to perpetuate our species. Having sex for fun and joy is normal because you are inteligent but the drive to do it is the expression of instinct nonetheless. Dogs don´t do it for fun, despite having pleasure on sex also (pciture some male dog trying to have sex with your leg).
I believe firmly we are not like robots and our minds are like computers programmed to do stuff, however it is undeniable that very last reason for what we do in our routine is to meet own survival to ultimately specimen perpetuation tasks.
Just take a look at women´s hormonal schema - after some time being able to procriate, it just stops producing what it takes to procriate. Men are like big hunters and then the hormones that makes him more effective on that task (GH, Testosterone) begin to decrease as time goes by so they become less effective and die at some point.
Of course we evolved from scenarios where food had to be hunt and you had your life threatened at every corner. This takes time to change, and we are adapting to our new way of life as we speak. But ultimately we are programmed to live and eat to procriate and then nothing else.
Spiritual Evolution, love, and everything else comes secondary to our body. I believe that we have an ultimate goal as for being born, evolute spiritually and etc, but we all carry a body that is programmed to do some stuff, and every expression of behavir is an ultimate result of chemical combinations on your brain. Every single thought of yours is a combination of chemical signals. So of course our behavior is a mixture of something that comes as inffluence from outside our bodies (consciousness, sprit, who knows? i have my beliefs, so does everyone) and internal inffluence regardless, as everyone needs to survive and procriate. So the trick is to respect the basic instincts and learn to express it the less unthoughtful way.
Beating people is one not well thought action lead by instinct, we just feel like beating someone for some reason and bam, there we go. So that is why we should be careful to tweak our BIOS (basic input/output system), making an analogy to computers. The way our BIOS exerts inffluence on our external actions is maily controlled by our hormones. The actions itself and the way you "feel" the world is more of a result of neurotrasmitters flow, which are also inffluenced by a great extent by your sexual hormones.
This leads to think that the more you act filtering your insticts, even if it is a very well disguised action like fighting for some "real" reason and fucking everyone you feel like, the more conscious you get. Cosciousness is what ultimately leads to evolution of yourself.
God, look at two people who get into a fight inside a bar for a woman. What difference does it have from like 50.000 years ago when two caveman fought for a woman? None. Just the bar. This is not self evolution. And that is why we have to be careful to insert in our bodies artificial hormones that increases our chances to act closer to instincts.
Last edited by WallyGator; 10-14-2003 at 01:01 PM.
10-14-2003, 06:54 PM #14
Thanks guys for sharing your opinions with everyone(Warrior, realityarts, johnsomebody, and of course, Wally)!
Bumping for anyone else to comment here.
10-14-2003, 10:48 PM #15
Wasn't there a murder case involving a woman who pled innocent by reason of insanity due to PMS, come to think of it? And didn't the guy who killed Harvey Milk get off on the "twinkie defense" -his messed up blood sugar made him crazy? So, unlike what I said earlier, those sort of hormonal influences may actually hold weight in court cases.
10-17-2003, 04:53 PM #16
States differ on how they define insanity. The most common is the M'Naghten Rule... which states...
"at the time of the commiting of the act, the party accused was laboring under such a defect of reason from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and the quality of the act he was doing; or if he did know it, that he did not know what he was doing was wrong. (M'Naghten's Case, 1843)"
Under the M'Naghten Rule, a sane person is presumed to know the consequences of their actions. To be ruled insane, a defendant must prove that he or she was unable to distinguishright from wrong or understand the nature or consequences of his or her acts.
The Model Penal Code, from the American Law Institute, states another test for legal insanity...
"A person is not responsible for criminal conduct if at the time of such conduct as a result of mental disease or mental defect he lacks substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality of his conduct or to conform his conduct to the requirements of law. (Model Penal Code, 1955)"
The American Law Institute test allows a defendent who knew he was doing wrong to satisfy his burden of proving his insanity if he can show he nevertheless lacked substantial capacity to behave properly.
Things that make ya go hmmmmm...
10-17-2003, 06:16 PM #17
Just some of my thoughts and comments:
The core of this thread in my opinion lies in an age old psychological debate.
Nature vs. Nurture
Nature being the our physiology and nurture being our experiences. While pursuing my BS in psychology I've spent much time thinking about this and the only conclusion I've come to is that there simply isnt a one sided answer. Rather, it is the interaction between both "forces" that helps foster out thoughts. It is a fact that our experiences and acquisition of knowledge literally change our psychological chemistry.
In believe it is difficuly to isolate one mechanism of our body and attempt to explain its role.
This a paper I wrote 4 years ago, its not directly related to this topic, however it parrallels many ideas brought up in this thread
The topic, is Testosterone , Aggression, and AAS:
The endocrine system is an intricate system of chemical signals and messages that control major lifelong bodily responses and functions. Physical development and sex characteristics are directly influenced by these powerful endocrine hormones. The endocrine system compliments the central nervous system by working in conjunction to maintain equilibrium inside the body, react to external stimuli, regulate reproductive processes, and the efficient use and store of energy. Different hormones carry various messages which each serve a unique purpose in the body. One category of hormones are sex steroid hormones (estrogens, progestin, androgens) which help develop, regulate and maintain male and female sex characteristics. The most potent androgen is a sex steroid produced in human males called testosterone. Testosterone is a male hormone that affects sexual features and development. It is produced in large amounts by the testicles.
Testosterone also demonstrates many secondary characteristics on the male body. It is associated with energy, strength, muscularity, and aggression. It is thought that testosterone may have an activating effect on human aggression. This is said to be the explanation for males being more aggressive than females. However, there is still much debate over whether there is a causal relationship between testosterone (T) levels and aggression. It is important to note that correlation does not imply causation. I believe that testosterone is a predominant force in determining aggression, however not the only factor, it is a multi-faceted issue with multiple variables.
Testosterone and Aggression
In many research studies with primates, a causal link between testosterone and aggression has been implied at the pubescent stage in male primates where a testosterone surge occurs (Archer, John, 1993; Bernstein et al., 1983). However, there have been other studies conducted that refute this conception. In interpreting aggression in humans the definition of aggression becomes more ambiguous because humans display a wider array of emotions and intentions. “Essentially, it includes varying mixtures of three components, the intention to harm another individual, a behavioral manifestation of this intention, and an accompanying emotion, ranging from irritation to rage” (Archer, John, 1993; Archer & Browne, 1989). Studies focus around males after puberty because prenatal androgen influence demonstrates little evidence of adult aggression.
It is important to acknowledge that aggression, although often thought of in a derogatory light, does and did serve in evolutionary purpose in humans. Evolutionary fitness as dictated by science is the ability that one possesses to reproduce. All species need resources in order to maintain fitness, therefore when resources are limited; species need to compete with one another in order for access to those resources. This may be the source of the evolutionary purpose of aggression; across many species, regardless of sex, usually the most aggressive animal has the highest survival rate.
The source of aggression is popularly associated with testosterone, though this conception may be an over simplification of a multi-faceted complex system. Other hormones that have been implicated in aggression are: adrenocorticotropic hormone, prolactin, estrogen, preogesterone, and adrenalin in addition to testosterone. Many researchers claim that it is insignificant to measure one hormone in absence of others, because each hormone play’s a role in the mechanism of action of the other. Another important conception to understand is that a hormone level is insignificant if there are no receiving receptors. Thus, males have receptors that are more sensitive to androgens, and have receptors that are insensitive to estrogen.
Like with many studies, primates are the predominant focus of non-human experiments. Intramuscular injections of testosterone propionate did increase the frequency of aggressive behavior in monkeys (Bharke, Yesalis III, Wright; Rejeski et al (1998). However, like most studies the results were inconclusive and the transgression to humans was unable to be made.
Drugs that resemble androgenic hormones (i.e. testosterone) are called anabolic steroids . They have several medical uses as well as several illicit uses. T replacement therapy is often used with aging men who stop producing sufficient quantities of testosterone, comparatively to menopause in women; often dubbed men’s menopause. Medically it may also be used with individual’s who have some sort of hypgonadism. Other medical uses include growth promotion for those with stunted growth, treatment of osteoporosis, mammary carcinoma, anaemias and hereditary oedema (Bahrke, Yesalis III, Wright). The illicit use of these substances is most commonly used by athletes and competitors in an effort of gaining weight, strength, power, and speed in relatively short period of time. Among the academic community and athletes there are large discrepancies about the effectiveness of anabolic steroids. The experimental findings and empirical findings may differ because experimentally these substances are not administered under real world circumstances. Ethical parameters limit scientist’s from experimenting with high doses of these substances with human subjects.
The terms anabolic and androgenic are often used interchangeably by the lay person. However, these terms are specific and have uniquely individual meanings. Androgenic effects are most often associated with sexual characteristics; they consist of enlargement of the penis and testes, voice changes, hair growth on the face, axilla, and genital areas and attributed to increased aggressiveness (Fahey, 1998). Whereas anabolic effects result in accelerated growth of muscle, bone and red blood cells, and enhanced neural conduction (Fahey, 1998). These steroids are usually synthetically manufactured to minimize androgenic effects and maximize anabolic effects, hence the desire of the athlete to use these substances. It an impossibility to completely minimize androgenic effects, those steroids with the greatest anabolic effect also bring with them androgenic effects.
As with all hormones and neurotransmitters, these substances are not effective unless there is a corresponding receptor to be stimulated. Resistance training is usually associated with steroids for this reason exactly. Since these hormones are dependent upon receptor sites in muscle tissue, strength training increases the number of unbound receptor sites (up-regulation), thus maximizing the steroids effect. Figure 1.1 cited from Thomas D. Fahey illustrates the mechanism of action for a steroid.
Figure 1: How a Steroid Hormone Works
The word recovery is used by athletes who describe the process of repairing muscle tissue due to intense resistance training. Steroids are said to speed this process by suppressing cortisol which is a stress hormone released by the adrenal glands during strenuous exercise. It does this by potentially binding to these cortisol receptors first. Cortisol is secreted to utilize proteins during exercise; however this hormone has a destructive effect on muscle tissue. This is why steroids are said to be anti-catabolic.
I will try to illustrate the basic concept of what happens in the body when an athlete uses steroids. Since there is an external source of testosterone like substance being administered into the body, the innate function of the body to maintain equilibrium is enacted. Other hormones are then secreted to compensate for this external source of (T), such as cortisol, and even estrogen levels. The body’s natural production of (T) begins to decrease due to a decrease in leutinzing hormone from the pituitary gland. The body recognizes the external source and in turn adjusts the body’s production accordingly. However, when this external source of (T) is discontinued the body’s other levels remain high, especially cortisol. This increased cortisol to (T) ratio causes the suppression of the immune system and leaves athletes particularly susceptible to disease immediately after administration. Also, muscle tissue is rapidly gained during use, it is also rapidly lost during “off” times, and these mechanisms quintessentially represent the body’s need for homeostasis.
Aggression and Violence
There have been many past studies that indicate Anabolic Androgenic Steroids (AAS) may cause aggression and violent behavior. Some studies have indicated that men who have been convicted of violent crimes have higher levels of testosterone than those of men with no convictions. Within the prison population the study also yielded a correlation between violent crime offenders and non-violent offenders, the violent offender had higher (T) levels. A study performed by Pederson, Wichstrom, and Blekesaune concluded that most commonly adolescents who have used anabolic steroids exhibited high levels of violence. As aforementioned though, correlation does not imply causation. Mazur conducted a study that indicated that men who were single had higher (T) levels than those who were not. Also, it is sociologically proven that single men engage in more risky self-destructive behaviors than do married men. Thus, the debate continues between the interaction of biology and socialization of human personality. This lies at the heart of the nature versus nurture debate.
Testosterone is an essential component for human life, both male and female. The relationship that the various hormones in the body have is an essential one, though not completely understood by researchers. Therefore discussing (T) without the context of other hormones is often misleading due to the lack of acknowledgment of their synergistic effects.
It is clear that (T) plays a role in aggression, to the extent that it is the primary influence is still inconclusive. Rather there is a culmination of effects that takes place in the body to promote aggression. Aggression must not be thought of always in a negative light, we need to realize the evolutionary role it has played in human survival and evolution. However, use of anabolic steroids produces aggression above the normal plateau and often is associated with violent behaviors. What is interesting here is this, aggression is thought of as a side effect of steroid users, but for the user this is no side effect, it is the desired effect. The aggression leads to enhanced mental focus and gives the athlete the competitive edge they are seeking. With this enhanced effect the user also takes on a milieu of complicating side effects that will eventually complicate bodily functions.
The desire for men to have increased (T) levels brings the good with the bad. One cannot overcome the body’s powerful ability to adapt and make changes in the body in order to maintain homeostasis. The latest research on aggression indicates that the adrenalin system may also have a profound effect on aggression. Like most issues with humans, this is a complex multi-faceted issue which has implications in many areas of life. The power and effect of the human endocrine system is unmistakably a powerful force in human life, and tampering with this system for illegitimate purposes will pose several detrimental effects to the human psyche and body.
Archer, John; (1991). The influence of testosterone on human aggression. British Journal of Psychology, v82, p.28
Bahrke, Michael; Yesalis III, Charles E.; Wright, James, E.; Psychological and Behavioral Effects of Endogenous Testosterone Levels and Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids Among Males: A Review, Journal of Sports Medicine.
Blazevich, Anthony J.; Giorgi, Anthony, (2001). Effect of testosterone administration and weight training on muscle architecture. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise, v33, p. 1688-93
Fahey, T.D. (1998). Anabolic-androgenic steroids: mechanism of action and effects on performance. Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine and Science.
Hochhauser, March, (1996). Steroids and athletes: The Chemistry of Violence. Addiction Letter, v12, p. 5
Mazur, Allan; Michalek, Joel, (1998). Marriage, Divorce, and Male Testosterone. Social Forces
Pedersen, Willy; Wichstron, Lars; Blekesaune, Morten, (2001). Violent behaviors, violent victimization, and doping agents: a normal population study of adolescents. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, v16, p.808
Wilson, Jean D.; (2000). Endocrinology: survival as a discipline in the 21st century?. Annual Review of Physiology, v62, p. 947-50
10-19-2003, 03:51 PM #18
Good job on the paper IGOTJUICE007 - I've read both the Yesalis and Taylor book's about AAS and athletes - if you have any other recommendations in the topic - let me know...
10-20-2003, 09:06 AM #19
Damn good post man. I guess this is the minimal amount of knowledge someone has to gather even before gathering specific steroid knowledge.
Someone has to know himself first in order to minimize external expression of psychological patterns while tweaking hormonal equilibrium.
This is a very underrated aspect of juicing and this is why there are so many meatheads and assholes juicing giving a bad name to everyone who does so.
Maybe asshole is not the correct word, maybe lack of knowledge, aka ignorance, is the key here.
People recommend teenagers not to juice until they are 23-24 years old because of two aspects. First, they have not reached their genetic peak over natural environment (endogenous testosterone and GH output) and nutrition. I would say it is more important to know how you react to nutrients and trainning patterns than reaching your natural genetic potential. Secondly, they say your endocrine system is not yet fully settled so you are messing it up before it has ever had the chance to settle, which i agree.
But i think there is a third aspect that no one mentions. The behavioral aspects. One has to learn first to deal with the emotional impulses he is going to get while jucing so he won´t harm people and or himself (could be loosing a job, getting into depression, breaking-up relationships).
I´ve seen peaceful people becoming bigtime assholes picking fights with everyone wherever he was. Traffic, home, clubs, whatever, while juicing. This can have a profound impact on one´s life.
I am yet to find research on these questions - Can exogenous androgenic hormones impair on permanent changes on your brain chemistry/endocrien system? Does it return to normal after discontinuing? Does "normal" means a genetic settled funtionality? What about your new acquired mass, to maintain it will you secrete more testosterone naturally? What about your nutritional pattern, does your hunger signals change for good so you eat your needed nutrients?
If some permanent change occurs (and of course at least some minimal changes occur) can we conclude roids change your way to see life/live it forever, even if you quit taking it?
Last edited by WallyGator; 10-20-2003 at 09:09 AM.
10-20-2003, 09:17 AM #20
Thanks man, yea I wrote that paper when I was 19 about 4 and a half years ago, it is the minimum knowledge one should have before embarking on more specific research. I agrree to about waiting will after 22, and did not do my first cycle until I was 23. You have raised many excellent questions, and when I have more time I will try to do some research and see what I can come up with. Thanks for starting a grea thread.
10-20-2003, 09:41 AM #21
Maybe we could start some thread to gather information of people´s mental experiences (at least the ones we can realize changes) on the most known compounds.
Users Browsing this Thread
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)