Testosterone vs Testosterone -which one is real?

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10-13-2003, 06:21 PM
johnsomebody

Will the real Testosterone please stand up

Hey bros,

Just when I think I've got this figured out I run into some kind of statement that totally throws me.

Like this one from Life Extension Foundation about HRT:

"Synthetic testosterone "steroid" drugs are chemically different from the testosterone your body makes and do not provide the same effect as natural testosterone. Some of the synthetic testosterone drugs to avoid using on a long-term basis are... testosterone propionate, cypionate, or enanthate."

Say what? It then explains that since "natural" test couldn't be patented drug companies came up with that semi-bogus stuff instead and the only "natural" test available is in the patches and the "creams, pellets and sublingual tablets". (http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-130c.shtml)

Could someone explain this to me? I thought sure I've read that people on HRT used cypionate or enanthate and I also thought the "cream" was based on Propionate.
10-13-2003, 06:29 PM
realityarts

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

Hey bros,

Just when I think I've got this figured out I run into some kind of statement that totally throws me.

Like this one from Life Extension Foundation about HRT:
"Synthetic testosterone "steroid" drugs are chemically different from the testosterone your body makes and do not provide the same effect as natural testosterone. Some of the synthetic testosterone drugs to avoid using on a long-term basis are... testosterone propionate, cypionate, or enanthate."

Say what? It then explains that since "natural" test couldn't be patented drug companies came up with that semi-bogus stuff instead and the only "natural" test available is in the patches and the "creams, pellets and sublingual tablets". (http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-130c.shtml)

Could someone explain this to me? I thought sure I've read that people on HRT used cypionate or enanthate and I also thought the "cream" was based on Propionate.

Testosterone in your body (as you know) is not a synthetic (patented) chemical made by man (a drug company). You can get actual, natural testosterone - usually from a compounding pharmacy...

LEF is primarily concerned with HRT - increasing your natural testosterone levels, than they are with anabolic muscle mass... In short, they want to sell some dietary supplements.

Hope this helps more than confuses the matter...
10-13-2003, 08:18 PM
johnsomebody

Well, here's part of what LEF says that confuses me...
"Scientists learned decades ago how to make the identical testosterone that your body produces, but since natural testosterone could not be patented, drug companies developed all kinds of synthetic testosterone analogs that could be patented and approved by the FDA as new drugs."

So you can buy "natural" testosterone at a pharmacy?? Why aren't people using that instead of Prop, Cyp or Enanthate, if it's closer to the "natural" test?

And what exactly is a "compounding pharmacy"?
10-13-2003, 08:30 PM
motoxxxguy

My take on it is that "natural" test is what your body produces "naturally". If you body didn't make it on its own, then it is "synthetic" or man-made. It doesn't work any differently, it's just produced by two different means. One, your body, the other a lab.

Also, as far as buying natural test at a pharmacy, unless it was somehow taken from a human donor, it would not be "natural".

-moto
10-13-2003, 08:37 PM
realityarts

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

Well, here's part of what LEF says that confuses me...
"Scientists learned decades ago how to make the identical testosterone that your body produces, but since natural testosterone could not be patented, drug companies developed all kinds of synthetic testosterone analogs that could be patented and approved by the FDA as new drugs."

So you can buy "natural" testosterone at a pharmacy?? Why aren't people using that instead of Prop, Cyp or Enanthate, if it's closer to the "natural" test?

And what exactly is a "compounding pharmacy"?

People are using it for HRT. I'm not sure how far people have taken it in anabolic cycles.

A compounding pharmacy, basically, prepares customized medications for physicians for their patients. The compounds can have any number of ingredients, dependent upon the doctors criteria.

Scientist know the formula to make natural testosterone - which cannot be patented (its an exact copy of the natural) - compounding pharmacies can whip this together into a patch, gel, sublingual...delivery system.

To acquire a patent, the invention (drug) must be unique and certainly not existing in nature.

[Sidebar rant: You will find much talk against natural remedies, nutrition, and natural drugs (cannabis...), because there is no 'real' money in it for drug companies and the government (though the gvmt does make money off of weed, to some extent, indirectly). So, all manner of propoganda is launched against them, so that the drug companies/physicians prevail. By the way, there is no money in cures. End rant.]

This is an interesting thread JS, I hope you dig up more info. I thought you'd like that LEF link (at least for intellectual stimulation),

RA
10-13-2003, 08:43 PM
motoxxxguy

The more I think about this, the more I seem to think that I may be a little off. Test is test, the only difference is the esters attached. The test produced in your body does not have any ester atteached to it, so would suspension be considered "natural" test, not because it is produced by your body, but because it is in the same usable state as your body's test would be? Just a thought...

-moto
10-13-2003, 08:44 PM
motoxxxguy

Then again, it's all relative to what you are comparing it to when deciding what is natural and what is synthetic.

-moto
10-13-2003, 09:43 PM
johnsomebody

Well, the "test is test" thing is what I've always heard -that it's the same as your body produces, only with an ester attached to make it last longer in assimilation. But the LEF thing seems to say that it's NOT the same chemical, or am I missing something?

Are you saying that the test that is made into patches and such is different from what is made into enanthate? Like I said, I thought I've read that the cream is actually propionate, which is why it has to be applied every day.
10-13-2003, 11:58 PM
realityarts

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

Well, the "test is test" thing is what I've always heard -that it's the same as your body produces, only with an ester attached to make it last longer in assimilation. But the LEF thing seems to say that it's NOT the same chemical, or am I missing something?

Are you saying that the test that is made into patches and such is different from what is made into enanthate? Like I said, I thought I've read that the cream is actually propionate, which is why it has to be applied every day.

Natural testosterone is indentical (molecularly) to the testosterone that the body produces. Though natural testosterone (so-called) is made (synthesized) in a lab, it cannot be distinguished from the body's own testosterone. The body treats them both the same way - they're identical.

Drugs like Testosterone Enanthate (...) are similar in structure to natural testosterone, but not completely the same in molecular structure (as you know). Pharmaceutical companies can patent the modified molecule. [Which makes them more popular, especially to physicians who get much of their post-school learning from drugs companies.] Modified testosterone is treated differently in the body than natural testosterone (or the body's own testosterone).

It is confusing, because one would think that natural testosterone is limited to what the body creates. However, natural testosterone has become known as a man-made copy of the body's testosterone too - a molecular indentical.

Does this clear it up some? If not, let me know and I'll give it another try.

RA
10-14-2003, 12:58 PM
johnsomebody

Well, what I don't understand is why don't people use this synthetic test that is identical to the "natural" test, rather than the stuff that isn't?
The LEF site says people shouldn't use Cyp or Enanthate longterm for HRT -if they do injections, what do they use then instead?
I hate to seem dumb but I still don't get it!
10-14-2003, 01:30 PM
realityarts

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

Well, what I don't understand is why don't people use this synthetic test that is identical to the "natural" test, rather than the stuff that isn't?
The LEF site says people shouldn't use Cyp or Enanthate longterm for HRT -if they do injections, what do they use then instead?
I hate to seem dumb but I still don't get it!

The natural testosterone (molecular equivalent to the body's) is not manufactured by the big pharmaceutical companies nor is it endorsed by the FDA (in the USA). (Natural testosterone is still clasified as a Schedule III controlled substance.)

It has to be made by a compounding pharmacy, by request from a physician (to fit the patient's needs). A compounding pharmacy is the only legitimate source for this natural testosterone. This makes its availability extemely difficult. So, I guess that is the short answer to this.

RA
10-14-2003, 01:43 PM
BUYLONGTERM

Wow, I think my head is about to explode!!!!! Boy, after this, I'm more confused than ever before and I'm going to find out tomorrow if I am going to be put on HRT. I'm assuming, It will be a cyp or enan.
10-14-2003, 01:58 PM
realityarts

The question now remains, how much of problem are the esterfied versions of testosterone over the non-esterfied natural testosterone version(?) Well, they both (esterfied and non-esterfied) are metabolized about the same (other than the obvious: esterfied v. are slower). However, other metabolites are formed from the esterfied versions.

What does the body do with these rogue metabolites? Good question, anyone got a scientific clue? If so, I'd be interested in reading what you have to share.

RA
10-14-2003, 02:05 PM
motoxxxguy

It has always been my understanding that once the body removes the attached ester, the test molecule is then free and acts like "natural test" because it is now identical. I do remember reading about something like this before, and I'll try to find it...

-moto
10-14-2003, 02:21 PM
realityarts

If the ester is benign, then the esterfied versions are definitely a better choice than the natural testosterone. This is partly due to the fact that the esterfied versions last longer in the body, requiring less injections (and perhaps avoiding surges).
10-14-2003, 03:17 PM
johnsomebody

So maybe straight testosterone as a synthetic chemical is so shortlived that it HAS to be bound to an ester like enanthate -and Propionate is just a very short-acting ester by comparison?
10-14-2003, 03:22 PM
realityarts

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

So maybe straight testosterone as a synthetic chemical is so shortlived that it HAS to be bound to an ester like enanthate -and Propionate is just a very short-acting ester by comparison?

Yeah, the natural testosterone would just surge into the body (its more water soluble) and out much faster.

RA
10-14-2003, 04:12 PM
motoxxxguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by realityarts

Yeah, the natural testosterone would just surge into the body (its more water soluble) and out much faster.

RA

Sort of like test suspension? That was the point I was trying to make...the point whether it is natural or synthetic is really irrelevant. I think by synthetic, they are refering to the manufactured test with an ester attached, making it a more controllable depot injection with regard to its release timing. This is why suspension must be injected daily, if not a few time a day and enanthate can be injected once or twice a wek and still acheive a consistant level in the bloodstream.

Still, I have no idea, other than marketing purposes, why they suggest in that article why one shouldn't use cyp or enanthate for HRT.

-moto
10-14-2003, 04:21 PM
johnsomebody

Hmmm, good point -maybe LEF is hooked up with a compounding pharmacy and they'll make more money promoting patches, pellets, creams, etc.
I can't think of any other reason myself for dissing cypionate or enanthate.
Anybody else have a clue?

Thanks for helping clear me up about the test thing, bros. I guess then that straight test is so volatile it HAS to be bound to something like propionate or enanthate to slow absorption, which, come to think of it, I should have known. And that explains why it has to be "compounded" into a patch or cream or pellet or whatever as well.
10-14-2003, 04:33 PM
realityarts

Yes, as I mentioned previously, LEF sells their own stuff.

Also, many in the supplement and natural health field reject all manner of synthetics as a rule...(regardless of their safety and effectiveness). Besides, they are after HRT, not significant anabolic gains.
10-14-2003, 04:38 PM
Ntpadude

Quote:

Originally Posted by motoxxxguy

Sort of like test suspension? That was the point I was trying to make...the point whether it is natural or synthetic is really irrelevant. I think by synthetic, they are refering to the manufactured test with an ester attached, making it a more controllable depot injection with regard to its release timing. This is why suspension must be injected daily, if not a few time a day and enanthate can be injected once or twice a wek and still acheive a consistant level in the bloodstream.

Still, I have no idea, other than marketing purposes, why they suggest in that article why one shouldn't use cyp or enanthate for HRT.

-moto

Well think of the target audience of that web page... its for 60+ agers who dont want uncomfortable shots all the time and a patch or rub on cream sounds more appealing to them. I think Enthanthate and Cyp is better because of no surge or dramatic drop in free test levels... also more convenient at once a week then EOD.

Honey, where's my false teeth and walker?
10-14-2003, 06:13 PM
johnsomebody

I don't get why they'd made the statement that esterized tests "do not provide the same effect as natural testosterone".
That's what threw me.
I'm beginning to think they're just flat out wrong, intentionally or not.
10-14-2003, 07:25 PM
realityarts

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

I don't get why they'd made the statement that esterized tests "do not provide the same effect as natural testosterone".
That's what threw me.
I'm beginning to think they're just flat out wrong, intentionally or not.

Apparently they are simply referring to the added effect of the ester -- I don't know what else they can be referring to.