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I was planning on running 600 mgs of sust a week with 400 mgs of deca. I was wondering (since I know that regular anti e's doesnt prevent deca gyno) if armidex works. I have access to this drug and its fairly cheap. What are all the anti e's that stop deca gyno? I believe they are proviron, bromo, and armidex right? Which is the best to run with this cycle.???
PS- i will run 10-20 mg of nolva with whatever i decide to run..
-Pete
You can run armidex for the sust with nolva on hand but that wont help with deca gyno, bromo will help with prolactin/progesterone gyno.
Bro deca will raise your progestrogen levels so you will need a prolactin inhibator:
research some of these...... bromo is the most common.... but research all:
Dostinex
Bromocriptine
Pergolide(Permax)
Cabergoline
Quinagolide
Terguride
Dostinex
Deca isnt converted into estrogen its converted into proesterone. You will need something that helps with that. I am not in any way telling you not to worry about proesterone from the deca but I am not pron to gyno and you have to take alot of deca to see deca tits so when I run it Im not even going to worry about bromo.
Actually deca doesn't aromatize to Progesterone, it can aromatize into dihydronandrolone, which is an AR agonist. The PR is stimulated by nandrolone, and can produce a progesterone-like substance; but it's not progesterone; much weaker.
Progesterone is a prolactin agonist(theory), and both prolactin and progesteron receptors can be found in the mammary gland and can cause gyno which is where prolactin inhibitors come into play
In any case, progesterone related gyno is very rare, and quite hard to form as the amount of progesterone would need to be substantial, and if Test is run at even a lesser dose than Fina or deca, if gyno comes into play, it's most likely still going to be estrogenic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheedno
This is good to know. Thanks for correcting me.
Thanks for the info, is proviron a prolactin inhibator???
-pete
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMudMan
yes.
If you lower the deca just a little you will be below what will cause progesterone like effects.... I also understand taking extra Vitimen B-6 is also anti-progesterone..Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
taking vitamin b6 at about a gram a day could help inhibit prolactin, but at that dose of deca, i would go with something like bromo.
arimidex stops estrogen conversion, not progesterone
How much deca has to be taken to see negative sides? 400 a week wouldnt be a problem, correct?
bro I have got gyno from prohormones NOR ANDRO, so i know damn well 400mg deca could do it to me =\
Quote:
Originally Posted by D3m3nt3d
pheedno i have a question, sorry if this is considerd hijacking, but it is subject related.
correct me if im wrong, but i thought i read a post where progest gyno is more present in the body only when regular estrogen levels are decreased? so in theory if you are taking test, and this obviuosly causes your Test and estro levels to increase, the progest/prolactin will be supressed? does that make sense? anyone have anythoughts on this.
Shim
B6 is not an anti-progesterone. The only real anti-progesterone their is RU-486(the morning after pill) but the side effects are so harsh it is more harm the good.
B6 is a mild prolactin inhibitor(I'll post the study at the bottom).
Ntpadude. how do you know what dose will casue prog. sides with Deca, especially since Deca does not even convert to progesterone?
Shim Jahng, you are correct.
PEOPLE- In order for progesterone to become a problem, estrogen has to drop low enough so that the body will start producing prog to balance the ratio. If you are running Test(even at a lower dose than the Deca_which is not advised for different reasons), than you are going to have too much estrogen conversion for the body to allow progesterone build up; even with an anti-e, and even if prolactin is surging which is lowering Test.
So, Peter, you do not need to lower your dose if you want to administer that much. Progesterone will not be a problem for you. If gyno symptoms appear, they will be estrogenic.
Heres the B6 study:
The following are excerpted from OB/GYN class notes:
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Suppression of Lactation:
When the mother chooses not to breast feed or the baby is lost, suppression of lactation may be required. Initially the breasts get engorged, however in the absence of suckling further milk production stops on its own. Firm support to the breasts is helpful in reducing the discomfort. Manual expression is not very helpful as it promotes further milk secretion. Estrogens in high doses can suppress lactation, however there are side effects and the risk of venous thrombosis, hence these are not recommended. Bromocryptine, a dopamine agonist, given 2.5 mg twice a day for 14 days can suppress lactation by producing a fall in prolactin levels. This therapy is expensive, has side effects and there may be rebound lactation once the drug is stopped. FDA no longer approves it. Pyridoxine – Vitamin B6, given 200 mg three times a day for 5-7 days is quite effective in suppressing lactation and the drug has no side effects.
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Got Wood? note : adding Bromo to your cycle only adds to the potential anabolic cascade, and potentially negative drug interactions. In medicine B6 is supposed to be as effective as Bromo. Plus vitamin B6 has few side effects.
Here are a few of many studies supporting the use of Vitamin B6 in reducing prolactin:
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J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):603-6
Effect of pyridoxine on human hypophyseal trophic hormone release: a possible stimulation of hypothalamic dopaminergic pathway.
Delitala G, Masala A, Alagna S, Devilla L.
A single dose of pyridoxine (300 mg iv) produced significant rises in peak levels of immunoreactive growth hormone GH and significant decrease of plasma prolactin PRL in 8 hospitalized healthy subjects. Serum glucose, luteinizing hormone LH, follicle stimulating hormone FSH and thyrotropin TSH were not altered significantly. In addition, in 5 acromegalic patients who were studied with both L-dopa and pyridoxine, inhibition of GH secretion followed either agent in a similar pattern. These data suggest a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect of pyridoxine.
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N Engl J Med 1982 Aug 12;307(7):444-5
Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise.
Moretti C, Fabbri A, Gnessi L, Bonifacio V, Fraioli F, Isidori A.
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Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper 1984 Feb 28;60(2):273-8
[Influence of administration of pyridoxine on circadian rhythm of plasma ACTH, cortisol prolactin and somatotropin in normal subjects]
[Article in Italian]
Barletta C, Sellini M, Bartoli A, Bigi C, Buzzetti R, Giovannini C.
The influence of vitamin B6 in a dosage of 300 mg X 2 in 24 hrs, on circadian rhythm of plasmatic ACTH, cortisol, prolactin and somatotropin have been studied in 10 normal women. After vitamin B6 24 hrs pattern of ACTH and cortisol is unchanged; prolactin levels are slightly lower, in a statistically unsignificant proportion the night peak of growth hormone is higher in a statistically significant proportion (p. 0.05). The effect of vitamin B6 is likely to me mediated by dopaminergic receptors at hypothalamic level as previous studies by other Authors appear to prove.