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  1. #1
    Pheedno is offline Respected Member
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    Aromatase Inhibitors(L-dex/Femara) do not inhibit recovery

    Or so it seems
    Below is a caption from a study on Letrozole 's effect towards gonatrophin concentrations

    Aromatase inhibitors in men

    The effect of aromatase inhibition on male gonadotrophin and sex steroid concentrations is illustrated in the paper by Trunet et al. (1993): 2.5 mg letrozole suppressed plasma oestradiol concentrations to less than 50% of pretreatment after 2 days, with recovery to approximately pretreatment values after 6 days. These decreases were accompanied by increased gonadotrophin concentrations, with resultant increases of approximately 50% in plasma testosterone. These results, and those previously published (Bhatnagar et al. 1992) on the effects of fadrozole in men, indicate that the aromatization pathway is of major importance in the regulation of gonodotrophin secretion by aromatically androgens


    http://journals.endocrinology.org/er...81/0060181.pdf


    Currently on the search for stidies contradicting, or supporting this finding. Any contribution welcomed

  2. #2
    majorpecs's Avatar
    majorpecs is offline Anabolic Member
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    So in english.....

  3. #3
    Pheedno is offline Respected Member
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    Bascially, test subjects saw a 50% increase in plasma testosterone levels with administration of 2.5mg, while benefiting from a 50% suppression of oestradiol.

  4. #4
    Pheedno is offline Respected Member
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    Hell, JB is way ahead of me on this one

    http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulle...50&postcount=9

  5. #5
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    bigtam is offline New Member
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    that was a good read pheedno. I must have missed it when JB posted it.
    Another area of concern brought to light by this article is the suggestion that tamoxifen and letrozole interact when taken simutaniously. resulting in letrozole concetrations approximately 35-40% lower than when letrozole is used alone. So I assume that those that want to take nolvadex in addition to femera should account for the possible negitive effect it could have.

  6. #6
    Pheedno is offline Respected Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtam
    that was a good read pheedno. I must have missed it when JB posted it.
    Another area of concern brought to light by this article is the suggestion that tamoxifen and letrozole interact when taken simutaniously. resulting in letrozole concetrations approximately 35-40% lower than when letrozole is used alone. So I assume that those that want to take nolvadex in addition to femera should account for the possible negitive effect it could have.
    That is correct. I myself do not use femara in the first place because of negative lipid effects(which is individualistic) but I always use 10mg of Nolva long side my inhibitor(or inactivator)

    Heres the study on that

    Impact of tamoxifen on the pharmacokinetics and endocrine effects of the aromatase inhibitor letrozole in postmenopausal women with breast cancer.

    Dowsett M, Pfister C, Johnston SR, Miles DW, Houston SJ, Verbeek JA, Gundacker H, Sioufi A, Smith IE.

    Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, London, United Kingdom.

    This study examined whether the addition of tamoxifen to the treatment regimen of patients with advanced breast cancer being treated with the aromatase inhibitor letrozole led to any pharmacokinetic or pharmacodynamic interaction. Twelve of 17 patients completed the core period of the trial in which 2.5 mg/day letrozole was administered alone for 6 weeks and in combination with 20 mg/day tamoxifen for the subsequent 6 weeks. Patients responding to treatment continued on the combination until progression of disease or any other reason for discontinuation. Plasma levels of letrozole were measured at the end of the 6-week periods of treatment with letrozole alone and the combination and once more between 4 and 8 months on combination therapy. No further measurements were done thereafter. Hormone levels were measured at 2-week intervals throughout the core period. Marked suppression of estradiol, estrone, and estrone sulfate occurred with letrozole treatment, and this was not significantly affected by the addition of tamoxifen. However, plasma levels of letrozole were reduced by a mean 37.6% during combination therapy (P<0.0001), and this reduction persisted after 4-8 months of combination therapy. Letrozole is the first drug to be described in which this pharmacokinetic interaction occurs with tamoxifen. The mechanism is likely to be a consequence of an induction of letrozole-metabolizing enzymes by tamoxifen but was not further addressed in this study. It is possible that the antitumor efficacy of letrozole may be affected. Thus, sequential therapy may be preferable with these two drugs. It is not known whether tamoxifen interacts with other members of this class of drugs or with other drugs in combination.

  7. #7
    956Vette is offline AR-Elite Hall of Famer
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    I wanted to bump this thread. I think i am understanding it all, but want to use an example circumstance. So say you have come off a cycle and used clomid/nolvadex for a month or so. If about two months have gone by, could femera or arimidex be used to elevate test levels more? Maybe using .25mg of arimidex ED or EOD for 6wks? What impact would this have on your body? Would it dip estrogen levels to any significant degree? Anyone have any thoughts on this?

  8. #8
    Swellin Guest
    It looks like you never got an answer Vette, so I'm bumping this one for you.

  9. #9
    KAEW44's Avatar
    KAEW44 is offline Senior Member
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    Can someone explain it in simple folks english....arimidex , famera...good? bad? stay away from them? sell them to highschool kids thinking its extasy?

  10. #10
    kman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KAEW44
    Can someone explain it in simple folks english....arimidex, famera...good? bad? stay away from them? sell them to highschool kids thinking its extasy?
    [/IMG] [IMG][/IMG] WOW

  11. #11
    hatchblack is offline Associate Member
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    Yeah, I am bumping this one as well. It seems ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't. Is there possibly a revised version of Pheendo's PCT around the corner....?????

  12. #12
    hatchblack is offline Associate Member
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    Revised Pheendo's PCT without the Nolva at the end of it maybe now...?

  13. #13
    RussianVodka's Avatar
    RussianVodka is offline Senior Member
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    More questions than answers....bump

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatchblack
    Yeah, I am bumping this one as well. It seems ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't. Is there possibly a revised version of Pheendo's PCT around the corner....?????
    What's the question?

  15. #15
    Da Bull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by einstein1905
    What's the question?
    Swellin started this bump last night.I suppose he's curious as to what Vette asked...so start there.

  16. #16
    Swellin Guest
    You got it DB. I was doing a bit of research and saw that Vette never got an answer to this one. I would also like to know the answer.

  17. #17
    956Vette is offline AR-Elite Hall of Famer
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    huh, forgot about this issue. I guess its been awhile. Im about to head out, but how bout you make a thread concerning this issue in the PCT section Swellin As i am still interested as well

  18. #18
    Da Bull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swellin
    You got it DB. I was doing a bit of research and saw that Vette never got an answer to this one. I would also like to know the answer.
    If it hasn't been answered in 8 mos,the odds are looking slim.Pheedno isn't around much at all,and einy blew the thread off.Good luck tho.

  19. #19
    956Vette is offline AR-Elite Hall of Famer
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    Well, i guess my non-scientific take on this is this:
    These studies i only take with a grain of salt. 95% of them do not apply to us as bodybuilders (using various AAS).
    My vague answer to my own question would be that it depends. It depends on the individual's genetics, drug use (if applicable), and lifestyle. The only way to really know the answer to the question at hand is to REALLY know your own body. Know your body in terms of comprehensive bloodwork, heredity, body type, etc. So, some people may benefit slightly from experimenting with anti-es off cycle, some may drive their levels too low impairing their own anabolism, and some may just not be affected. Moreover, diet and lifestyle is usually the cause and possibly the solution to these situations IMO.
    -just thoughts off the top of my head

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 956Vette
    I wanted to bump this thread. I think i am understanding it all, but want to use an example circumstance. So say you have come off a cycle and used clomid/nolvadex for a month or so. If about two months have gone by, could femera or arimidex be used to elevate test levels more? Maybe using .25mg of arimidex ED or EOD for 6wks? What impact would this have on your body? Would it dip estrogen levels to any significant degree? Anyone have any thoughts on this?
    The only reason an AI is a good idea during pct (and it's good enough for me to justify using it) is because during the start of pct, you should still have higher than normal estrogen levels from your cycle itself. Using an AI here merely prevents what little test that IS being produced from aromatizing, as every bit is needed at this time where exo test is now absent and endo test has yet to reach normal levels. Also, an AI will reduce SHBG levels, thus making for a higher % of bioavialable test and making the little test you are producing during pct "magnified" in its effects. IMO, you're not really in any danger of suppresing estrogen too low due to the estrogen carryover from the cycle, and even then, if it does dip a bit low, you're using enough nolva to provide estrogenic effects in all the right places.

    I wouldn't use an AI outside the window of pct because you are at risk if suppressing estrogen too low, as you don't have the security of the estrogen carryover from a cycle, and using an AI w/o nolva has too much potential to lower HDL and even affect bone density (depending on length of use......w/o nolva).

    You'd be much better off hopping back on clomid to block hypothalamal ERs w/o affecting systemic estrogen levels.

  21. #21
    Money Boss Hustla's Avatar
    Money Boss Hustla is offline Retired Moderator
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    Great post guys.

  22. #22
    hatchblack is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by einstein1905
    What's the question?
    My question was originally regarding the apparent decrease in blood levels of the AI when taken with Nolvadex . Would it be safe to assume that possibly there might be some benefit to uping the AI dosing while on clomid...? Also, you are recommending discontinuing AI usage after the conclusion of PCT. I was under the impression that delay stopage of AI after PCT (ie, 2 weeks) helps natural test production...?

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