12-31-2003, 06:44 AM #1
adding some hcg (Gonadotropina Corionica by Loeffler) to my cycle, add now or later?
hi, i'm a newbie, enjoying almost everything that this first cycle has to offer. i'm on a physical therapy program to strengthen my lower back, and now that i'm on the sauce, it's finally working!!!!! i've put on 25 lbs in the past 6 weeks, taking 300mg of deca and 300mg of test cyp a week. the test is all gone, and can't find more, so i'm forced to run just deca for the last 4 weeks, and then start with the clomid 3 weeks after the last deca shot.
i've gone from 175 to 200 lbs allready, but my nuts are smaller, and i come less when i nut durring sex, so i got some hcg (Gonadotropina Corionica by Loeffler) from mexico. i've done searches and read the other posts on hcg, but still don't understand exactly how to use this stuff. does iu mean in my veins? i'm kinda scared of that. can i put this in my muscles or not? so, i've got the two bottles. do i just empty everything out of one and put it into the other one with the powder inside it? then refrigerate it? when do i take the stuff? i'm mostly concerned with my balls getting back to thier place, LOWER in my sack, so they don't shoot up inside me when i nut, and test levels being high after the cycle is over.
as i said, i've read the other posts, but didn't get any very straight answers.
could someone please spell it all out? exactly what do i do with these two mexican bottles????????????
Last edited by cloud9; 01-04-2004 at 06:56 PM.
12-31-2003, 07:01 AM #2
12-31-2003, 07:04 AM #3
Good point mudman. I don't understand how someone can start a cycle without everything then want to add something they know nothing about?
12-31-2003, 07:11 AM #4
Thanks for your reply and advise. I'm not concerned with deca dick for the next four weeks. I'm 28 yrs old and just took two shots of sustanon when i was down in mexico last week too. sorry i didn't mention that before. should i still stop the deca, instead of just finishing this cycle out? i know that running test with the deca is ideal, but what's the harm in doing just the few weeks of deca that i have left? if it's just the deca dick posibility you're trying to save me from, thanks, but i'll live with the risk of a couple weeks of limpness, if it's something else, please advise me, and i'll certianly listen and act upon it.
12-31-2003, 07:14 AM #5
Hi, Mach Z...let me help you UNDERSTAND... After my nuts shrank, I read a lot on this site about how hcg helps your balls come back to normal and also how it gets test levels back to normal. so i went and got some. that's how. Thanks for your concern. Any positive, constricitve threads are certianly welcomed. T
12-31-2003, 07:14 AM #6
I would never run deca past my test it will make recovery very hard and you could end up losing a lot of your gains. Best bet is to always allow for test to run 2 weeks past your deca to allow the deca to clear while still having test in your system the start PCT when the test clears......... easier recovery. JMO
12-31-2003, 07:14 AM #7
12-31-2003, 01:28 PM #8
only taking one cc of deca 300 qv a week. i did two shots of deca (the kind that comes in the preloaded syrenges, two pack) and two shots of sestanon in mexico exactly one week ago, and was going to wait one more week before starting with my last four weekly deca shots. i have nolva, clomid, and you know about the hcg . won't the hcg help with recovery a lot anyway?
12-31-2003, 01:35 PM #9Originally Posted by cloud9
Deca is the hard drug on your HPTA!!
HCG could and should have been used in small doses(500ius every 4th day) throughout the cycle. This would prevent the atrophy from happening. It will also help with Deca dick in some manor, but the test should help. I would also extend the test past the deca to help with libido problems.
You should run the PCT for 4 weeks as Deca is the devil when it comes to recovery.
Supps like Maca and Avena Sativa can and will help with libido problems post cycle. Remember, dont start your PCT before your testicles have come back by using the HCG!
12-31-2003, 02:48 PM #10Member
- Join Date
- Dec 2001
Lawnsaver, although I know that the protocol you've spoken of regarding the HCG usage is common amoung HRT patients, I have heard that repeated usage of HCG will lessen the body's response to the drug, therefore using it at the end of the cycle, maybe the middle if it is an especially long cycle is more beneficial. Personally I've only used it in a way similar to the way you described (500IU per week for me, then higher dosage at the end of the cycle), so I can't compare from personal experience; however raybravo put up a study (wish I could find it, if I do I'll post it) where the response from the HCG was decreased after repeated usage. Not to mention that if you have problems with estrogenic sides, I wouldn't run HCG throughout a cycle.
I'd recommend starting it after your last shot of deca . Start out at 1000IU EOD along with 10mg ED of nolvadex for 2 weeks, then start post cycle therapy (PCT) as you would normally a week afterwards (so there is a week break in between HCG therapy and PCT, as you should wait 3 weeks after last shot of deca to start PCT). But this is no exact science, everyone has their own opinion on post cycle recovery, best way to determine the best course is through personal experience, of course, and by reading the opinions of many and determining what you think is best.
12-31-2003, 03:46 PM #11
thanks guys! does IU mean shoot in the muscle? Is 1000 ui the same as one cc?
mc bain, so i should wait a couple days after my last deca shot, then do the first, one cc shot of the Gonado? is that correct?
someone rather experienced in this field suggested that all the deca should be out of my system before I start the hcg treatment, or else they'll just shrink up again if there is any deca left in my system when i stop the hcg treatment. any comments on this?
12-31-2003, 03:56 PM #12
[QUOTE=cloud9]hi, i'm a newbie, enjoying almost everything that this first cycle has to offer. i'm on a physical therapy program to strengthen my lower back, and now that i'm on the sauce, it's finally working!!!!! i've put on 25 lbs in the past 6 weeks, taking 300mg of deca and 300mg of test cyp a week. the test is all gone, and can't find more, so i'm forced to run just deca for the last 4 weeks, and then start with the clomid 3 weeks after the last deca shot.
i've gone from 175 to 200 lbs allready, but my nuts are smaller, and i come less when i nut durring sex, so i got some hcg (Gonadotropina Corionica by Loeffler) from mexico. i've done searches and read the other posts on hcg, but still don't understand exactly how to use this stuff. does iu mean in my veins? i'm kinda scared of that. can i put this in my muscles or not? so, i've got the two bottles. do i just empty everything out of one and put it into the other one with the powder inside it? then refrigerate it? when do i take the stuff? i'm mostly concerned with test levels being high after the cycle is over.
as i said, i've read the other posts, but didn't get any very straight answers.
could someone please spell it all out? exactly what do i do with these two mexican bottles????????????
Never in the vein! Use a 1 inch to the thigh or 1.5 to the ass. Mix the powder then use the entire amount:5000 iu's/ week. The hcg needs to be keep cool all along so that it remains "good". What you should worry about is your test levels being low after your cycle. The hcg is "mostly" used after a cycle to kick the gonads back into swing.
12-31-2003, 04:04 PM #13Originally Posted by McBain
I will not say the protocal in which you speak of isnt effective, it is, as I have done the same thing. This way of using HCG is new, but I have used it in 3 cycles and I have never recovered so fast.
Prevention of atrophy is a better way than trying to fix the problem later. This way gives the user a smooth transition into PCT, as the PCT doesnt have to worry about the atrophy.
The reason why I would like to see this person try it, is because the last time I took Deca , I waited until the end to use HCG and 1 of my testicle didnt recover. It has been 2 and a half years and it still is a pea nut. I strongly feel that if I had prevented the atrophy, I would still have 2 regular sized testicle.
Go check out www.*************.com and pick Dr. John's(Swale) brain on this subject. He is a board certified Doctor who actually specializes in Steroids , HRT, and PCT. He is the best out there IMO.
Its nice sometime when someone pushes the envelope and actually puts his reputation on the line to find out a better way to do things in the IRON GAME!
12-31-2003, 05:07 PM #14Originally Posted by LAWNSAVER
12-31-2003, 06:18 PM #15Originally Posted by jcstomper
HCG is suppresive, so dont use while you are trying to recover.
HCG really has one purpose. Testicular Atrophy(shrinkage)
If you use HCG in small doses throughout the cycle you can prevent the shrinkage from ever happening. IF you dont have any atrophy at the end of your cycle, yoru can transition into your PCT or HPTA recovery smoother. This means your Clomid or Novladex will only have to rectify 1 problem which is your natural test levels.
Say your cycle is 10 weeks, start the HCG 4 or 5 days after your first shot. 300-500ius will do fine. At this dose elevated estrogen will not be a problem. Take the HCG up until 1 week before you are ready to start your PCT. So if you finish your Enanthate at week 10 and you are going to start your PCT on week 12, stop the HCG at the end of week 11.
12-31-2003, 06:19 PM #16
This is Dr. John's(Swale) PCT protocal.
Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.
Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!
Here it is:
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid -induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.
I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel , or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.
I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).
All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
12-31-2003, 07:48 PM #17
thanks alot for the info.
so would it be wise to use this protocol for a 10 week cycle of EQ and TREN ? im only doing the tren for the first 5 weeks, and then continuing the EQ the following 5 weeks after.
week 1 - 10 400mg/wk EQ
week 1 - 5 60mg/eod Trenabol
every 4th day 400 I.U. HCG
week 12 start pct
? is that how i should do it?
12-31-2003, 08:18 PM #18Originally Posted by jcstomper
Why no test?? You might have libido problems...
Although I will not run deca or tren ever again, I think you will be fine.
Focus on your diet!
12-31-2003, 10:38 PM #19Originally Posted by LAWNSAVER
01-05-2004, 02:48 AM #20
Here is something I found online. Any disagreements? Seem legit to you guys?
HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin )
Active Life: 64 hours
Drug Class: Leutenizing Hormone (LH) - Gonadotropin
Average Dose: debatable
Water Retention: Yes
High Blood Pressure: Yes
Liver Toxic: No
Aromatization: No, but it will raise testosterone levels and increased aromatization may occur.
Chorionic gonadotropin is a hormone found in the female body during the early months of pregnancy (it is produced in the placenta). It is in fact the pregnancy indicator looked at by the over the counter pregnancy test kits, as due to its origin it is not found in the body at any other time. Blood levels of this hormone will become noticeable as early as seven days after ovulation. The level will rise evenly, reaching a peak at approximately two to three months into gestation. After this point, the hormone level will drop gradually until the point of birth. As a prescription drug, HCG offers us some interesting benefits. In the United States, we have the two popular brands, Pregnyl, made by Organon, and Profasi, made by Serono. These are FDA approved for the treatment of undescended testicles in young boys, hypogonadism (underproduction of testosterone ) and as a fertility drug used to aid in inducing ovulation in women. When prepared as a medical item, this hormone comes from a human origin. Although there is often a fear of biological origin products, there is little research to be found regarding pathogen or sterility problems with HCG. The problems seen with human origin growth hormone are certainly not to be repeated with HCG, as this compound is obtained in a much different way.
While HCG offers the female no performance enhancing ability, it does prove very useful to the male steroid user. The obvious use of course being to stimulate the production of endogenous testosterone. The activity of HCG in the male body is due to its ability to mimic LH (luteinizing hormone), a pituitary hormone that stimulates the Leydig's cells in the testes to manufacture testosterone. Restoring endogenous testosterone production is a special concern at the end of each steroid cycle, a time when a subnormal androgen level (due to steroid induced suppression) could be very costly. The main concern is the action of cortisol, which in many ways is balanced out by the effect of androgens. Cortisol sends the opposite message to the muscles than testosterone, or to breakdown protein in the cell. Left unchecked (by an extremely low testosterone level) in the body, cortisol can quickly strip much of your new muscle mass away.
The main focus with HCG is to restore the normal ability of the testes to respond to endogenous luteinizing hormone. After a long period of inactivity, this ability may have been seriously reduced. In such a state testosterone levels may not reach a normal point, even though the release of endogenous LH has been resumed. Many who have suffered severe testicular shrinkage may be able to relate, as it is often some time before normal testicle size and feelings of virility are restored if ancillary drugs had not been used. The excessive stimulation brought forth by administration of HCG can likewise cause the testicles to rapidly return to their normal size and level of activity. We are not simply looking for it to fix the problem however, as the resulting high testosterone level can itself trigger negative feedback inhibition at the hypothalamus. Estrogen production is also heightened with the use of HCG, due to its ability to increase aromatase activity in the Leydig's cells. This is due to the main action of HCG, namely the increase of cycIicAMP (a secondary messenger that regulates cellular activity). When stimulated by HCG, the ability of the testes to aromatize androgens could potentially be heightened several times greater than normal. This also may inhibit testosterone production, so we therefore use HCG only as a quick shock to the testes.
The usual protocol is to inject 1500-3000 I.U. every 4th or 5th day, for a duration usually no longer than 2 or 3 weeks. If used for too long or at too high a dose, the drug may actually function to desensitize the Leydig's cells to luteinizing hormone, further hindering a return to homeostasis. Timing the initial dose is also very crucial. If your were coming off a cycle of Sustanon for example, testosterone levels in your blood will likely stay elevated for at least 3 to 4 weeks after your last injection. Taking HCG on the day of your last shot would therefore be useless. Instead one would want to calculate the last week in which androgen levels are likely to be above normal, and begin ancillary drug therapy at this point. In this case HCG would be started around the third or fourth week. Likewise, after ending a cycle of Dianabol (an oral) your blood levels will be sub normal after the third day. Here you may want to begin HCG therapy a few days before your last intake of tablets, giving it a few days to take effect. One would also want to give some thought to the level of suppression that the cycle might have brought about. After an 8 week cycle of Equipoise for example, 1500-2500 I.U. would likely be a sufficient initial dosage. The lower amount of hormonal suppression one associates with this drug would probably not require much more. On the other hand, 750-1000mg of Sustanon per week might incline the user to inject a much larger HCG dose, perhaps as much as 5000 I.U. for the opening application. It may thereafter also be a good idea to reduce the dosage on subsequent shots, so as to step down the intake of HCG during the two or three weeks of intake.
As discussed above, HCG acts only to mimic the action of LH. It is likewise not the perfect hormone to combat testosterone suppression, and for this reason it is used most often in conjunction with estrogen antagonists such as Clomid, Nolvadex or cyclofenil . These drugs have a different effect on the regulating system, namely inhibiting estrogen-induced suppression at the hypothalamus. This of course also helps to restore the release of testosterone, although through a much different mechanism than HCG. A combination of both drugs appears to be very synergistic, HCG providing an immediate effect on the testes (shocking them out of inactivity) while the anti-estrogen helps later to block inhibition on the hypothalamus and resume the normal release of gonadotropins from the pituitary. The typical procedure involves giving the Clomid/Nolvadex dose from the start with HCG, but continuing it alone for a few weeks once HCG has been discontinued. This practice should effectively raise testosterone levels, which will hopefully remain stable once Clomid/Nolvadex have been discontinued. While unfortunately there is no way to retain all of the muscle gains produced by anabolic steroids , using ancillaries to restore a balanced hormonal state is the best way to minimize the loss felt with ending a cycle.
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