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  1. #1
    Paranoid's Avatar
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    Connective tissue and AAS

    "Unknown Author"

    While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

    Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

    Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

    Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

    You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

    Deca , Equipoise , Anavar , and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

    While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

    To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

    Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

    Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

    Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

    Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

    These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

    Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

    Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

    GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

    Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

    Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.

  2. #2
    Lord's Avatar
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    good post bro!

  3. #3
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    Awesome post, a real help to us pro-sportsmen!

  4. #4
    destinationms.o is offline Female Member
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    Awesome..some great information for all of us!

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    For a long time I have been aweare of the detrimental effects of Testosterone on tendons, and I always knew that HGH was the solution to counter those ill effects. However, with the price that HGH carries few of us can afford that, especially just to prevent tendon injuries. It was a great relief learning that EQ has such positive effects and can offset potential damaging effects of Test. Makes me that much happier that I am including EQ in my upcoming cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid
    For a long time I have been aweare of the detrimental effects of Testosterone on tendons, and I always knew that HGH was the solution to counter those ill effects. However, with the price that HGH carries few of us can afford that, especially just to prevent tendon injuries. It was a great relief learning that EQ has such positive effects and can offset potential damaging effects of Test. Makes me that much happier that I am including EQ in my upcoming cycle.
    The effects of GH on collagen synthesis are mediated by IGF-1, so using IGF-1 will, itself, promote collagen synthesis.
    p.s. If anyone knows anyone at Merck, can you PM me or email me? Thanks

  7. #7
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    nice post!

  8. #8
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    cool info...nice post..

  9. #9
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    good read... interesting info.

  10. #10
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    I've known bits and pieces of the information in that post but its great to see it all in one place. Great post bro!

  11. #11
    raoul3 is offline Associate Member
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    No wonder I had tendonitis in my knee during my first cycle, despite using Var... I wish I had this info sooner. Great post! I will definately take it into account when I plan my next run.
    Question, when it says 200mg of test, it doesn't take into account the weight of the easter, so that should equal to roughly 240mg of prop, right?

  12. #12
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    very good read thanx bro.

    peace

  13. #13
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    great post man very informative, especially for atheletes who run a higher risk of injury. i wish there was a source and would love to read more about this if anyone else has similar info. this post should be in the educational forum.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honest Abe
    great post man very informative, especially for atheletes who run a higher risk of injury. i wish there was a source and would love to read more about this if anyone else has similar info. this post should be in the educational forum.
    The post makes perfect sense...a bunch of my baseball buddies who have tried winny have all had to have tommy john surgery on there ulnar ligaments...there velocity all went up and the got faster and stronger...but a significant amount end up tearing up their shoulders or elbows...great post...something to think about!

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    Paranoid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raoul3
    Question, when it says 200mg of test, it doesn't take into account the weight of the easter, so that should equal to roughly 240mg of prop, right?

    Yes, that's correct.

  16. #16
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    Great post!! Since I cut back on the Test and started using EQ, Deca , and Primo my joints have never felt better, during and post cycle.
    Older athletes take note.

  17. #17
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    this def backed my test prop/var cycle, thanks bro

  18. #18
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    If the half-life of Eq is 14 days why do you have to inject 2x a week?

  19. #19
    Paranoid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mman
    If the half-life of Eq is 14 days why do you have to inject 2x a week?
    I have often thought about that myself. Any takers?

  20. #20
    magnusson is offline Junior Member
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    good post the tendons in my arms have been ****ing killing me.

  21. #21
    BASK8KACE is offline Anabolic Member
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    Informative post. Good job.

    Bump.

    Xxample

  22. #22
    raoul3 is offline Associate Member
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    Hello Paranoid, you have no idea where those figures came from? I would really like to find out if it's from a credible journal or just empirical data. I mean I am already convinced, due to what I've experienced, but other people always need solid studies, etc...

  23. #23
    byu
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    Solid post. Needs a reference. It makes sense and I have read excessive information elsewhere that supports these thoughts/theories. As a pro-ball player this is of the utmost importance. If you could find the author of this article I would appreciate it.

    Thanks a lot...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by raoul3
    Hello Paranoid, you have no idea where those figures came from? I would really like to find out if it's from a credible journal or just empirical data. I mean I am already convinced, due to what I've experienced, but other people always need solid studies, etc...
    I know exactly what you mean, being a science guy myself, I would have felt a whole lot better if there was a journal reference attached to this article. Unfortunately, I got it off another board and it was made clear that the author/source was unknown.

  25. #25
    Flynman is offline Associate Member
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    Cycle results

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Smith
    very good read thanx bro.

    peace
    Agentsmith was thinking of doing the same cycle minus the HGH. Let me know how it turns out. I was planning on starting in Late April for summer cycle.

    Thanks
    Peace

  26. #26
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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

    I just did a quick NCBI search and found 2 abstracts that say test has no effect on collagen synthesis. As I said before, it's through IGF-1 that GH has its effect on increasing collagen synthesis, so save yourself the money if that's the main reason you're looking at GH.....just use IGF-1.

  27. #27
    raoul3 is offline Associate Member
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    Man IGF-1 costs Between 200-300 bucks per milligram, right? How long would that last? About a month, if even that... Now I don't know where you get your source at but this is not cheaper than GH in my book...
    Last edited by raoul3; 01-27-2004 at 10:31 AM.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by raoul3
    Man IGF-1 costs Between 200-300 bucks per gram, right? How long would that last? About a month, if even that... Now I don't know where you get your source at but this is not cheaper than GH in my book...
    WOW, if you can get one GRAM for 200-300 bucks, your probobly the best connected bro out there. LOL
    Actually, IGF-1 R3 comes in 'mg' not 'g'. People use anywhere from 20-120mcg per day so in essence 1 mg would last you from 8-50 days. Realistically, for most ppl 1mg will last 20-25 days.

  29. #29
    raoul3 is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid
    WOW, if you can get one GRAM for 200-300 bucks, your probobly the best connected bro out there. LOL
    Actually, IGF-1 R3 comes in 'mg' not 'g'. People use anywhere from 20-120mcg per day so in essence 1 mg would last you from 8-50 days. Realistically, for most ppl 1mg will last 20-25 days.
    True, I meant a milligram. Also another thing, I would choose GH which is manufactured by legit companies, any day over IGF-1 that is from research products websites...
    Last edited by raoul3; 01-27-2004 at 10:39 AM.

  30. #30
    raoul3 is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paranoid
    People use anywhere from 20-120mcg per day so in essence 1 mg would last you from 8-50 days. Realistically, for most ppl 1mg will last 20-25 days.
    You're right, 1mg will last more around 15-21 days, simply because some will be lost in the slin pin. Tiny amounts, but it adds up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raoul3
    True, I meant a milligram. Also another thing, I would choose GH which is manufactured by legit companies, any day over IGF-1 that is from research products websites...
    Assume you can get GH for about $2/IU...although most can't find this rate. At 4IU/day, which isn't a lot, you'll be paying $240/month. You'll also need to be taking GH for an extended period of time to see results. However, with IGF-1 LR3, you can use 50mcgs/day in 20 day cycles and see marked results. Most all of the benefits of GH for BBers are as a result of GH increasing IGF-1. I can get IGF-1 LR3 for $180/mg. So, there is no comparison when you consider results/money spent.
    As for IGF-1 LR3 being manufactured by research companies and insinuating that it isn't legit, that's just wrong. Most is manufactured by one company and distributed by research companies. That which is produced by research companies is the same as any other IGF-1 LR3. Name one company whose IGF-1 is in question.
    GH is great, but it's just not as cost effective as IGF-1 LR3. Throw slin into the mix to upregulate IGF-1 receptors (IGF-1 also upregulates slin receptors) and you have beautiful synergy at a relatively cheap price.
    The GH that's being marketed is simply one form of GH. It would be much more beneficial to use a GH secretagogue to allow upregulation of all the various forms of GH to yield a much wider array of benefits than are being seen by the monovariant recombinant GH.
    Last edited by einstein1905; 01-27-2004 at 11:38 AM.

  32. #32
    raoul3 is offline Associate Member
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    Well you got some valid points but I just don't share your opinion. I've tried both IGF-1 R3 and GH. I tried them by themselves and I was disappointed by the IGF-1 (however it certainly has a synergetic effect along with AAS, I don't know).
    I responded to your comment because you suggested the IGF-1 for increasing collagen synthesis (not only for bodybuilding purposes, I thought). But this is a long process so if your goal is to increase tendons and other connective tissues strength, I think you might as well use GH. But you're right, it depends on how much you can get it for.
    BTW I didn't mean to dis the research websites, some are top notch! But I suspect my IGF-1 was underfilled... (.9 or even .8 instead of 1ml) Either that, or I wasted a considerable amount in the slin pins. The company doesn't exist anymore, it was cyber-sol. But I still have one vial so I will not question their product until I try it with AAS.
    Last edited by raoul3; 01-27-2004 at 09:19 PM.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by raoul3
    Well you got some valid points but I just don't share your opinion. I've tried both IGF-1 R3 and GH. I tried them by themselves and I was disappointed by the IGF-1 (however it certainly has a synergetic effect along with AAS, I don't know).
    I responded to your comment because you suggested the IGF-1 for increasing collagen synthesis (not only for bodybuilding purposes, I thought). But this is a long process so if your goal is to increase tendons and other connective tissues strength, I think you might as well use GH. But you're right, it depends on how much you can get it for.
    BTW I didn't mean to dis the research websites, some are top notch! But I suspect my IGF-1 was underfilled... (.9 or even .8 instead of 1ml) Either that, or I wasted a considerable amount in the slin pins. The company doesn't exist anymore, it was cyber-sol. But I still have one vial so I will not question their product until I try it with AAS.
    No problem, I understand where you're coming from. GH is better overall, provided at a high enough dosage and length of time. I can't vouch for the company you mentioned, since I've never even heard of them, but the 3 or 4 major IGF-1 LR3 suppliers most people on the boards use are reputable and haven't had any complaints of underdosing. As far as losing some in the pin, just draw up some BA 1st, then your IGF...then shoot. Any loss that way is going to be negligible. IGF-1 LR3 at the higher doses can do some amazing things....with slin and AAS, lookout.

  34. #34
    raoul3 is offline Associate Member
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    Yep that's a good trick, I did do that actually! I will try it during my next cycle. What kind of gains did you get and think the IGF-1 was responsible for? SubQ or IM? I did intramuscular. One other thing, I've also read that it simply didn't work very well for some people, maybe it's just that, I don't know.

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