01-22-2004, 12:07 AM #1
LHRH vs SERMs -- Why not use LHRH for PCT???
Can anyone tell me why people choose to use Nolvadex or Clomid (SERM's) for their PCT recovery rather than LHRH (luetenizing hormone releasing hormone)???
The purpose of Nolva/Clo is to increase LH and FSH secretion lvls to recover the HPTA. It makes much more sense to use LHRH + HCG rather than nolva/clomid + HCG to recover the HPTA...
Is it not used simply because no one knows of its existence, cant get a hold of it, dunno what dosages to use, etc??? Or am I missing something that would make LHRH less effective than a SERM... anyone?
I got 20mg of LHRH, suspending 1mg into 10ml BA to get 100mcg/ml/10ml concentration then use 20iu/ed in my PCT and work from that dosage. 20iu should equal 20mcg/ed based on my powder conversion potency correct?
01-22-2004, 06:48 AM #2Respected Member
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SERMs work through a negative feed back. HCG and LHRH mimick LH wich is what your trying to recover. If the body detects LH in the system(from the synthetic supplementation), it won't upstart natural production
HCG should not even be used along side SERMs for PCT.
Now, both could be beneficial during the cycle, but would ultimately inhibit recovery once exogenous hormone exited the system
01-22-2004, 06:56 AM #3
nice work Pheedno
01-22-2004, 07:02 AM #4Originally Posted by Pheedno
01-22-2004, 07:34 AM #5
In addition to what pheedno said you would actually end up shutting down LH and FSH production.
Do you even know what LHRH is used for?
Here's some help:
"LHRH (luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone) agonists work by blocking the production of male hormones. Therefore, they can cause certain side effects related to a decrease in male hormone levels. ELIGARD® (leuprolide acetate for injectable suspension) is a type of LHRH agonist, but the side effects covered in this section are general side effects associated with the entire group of LHRH agonists.
Common Side Effects of LHRH Agonist Therapy
Breast growth (gynecomastia ) and/or sensitivity (mastodynia)
Loss of muscle mass and strength
Loss of testicular and penile volume
Loss of body hair
Change in head hair, beard
Loss of bone mineral density
Low red blood count (anemia)
Inability to achieve or maintain an erection
Lack of energy or initiative
LHRH is used for medical castration. Probably one reason why people dont use it to recover the HPTA.
Last edited by longhornDr; 01-22-2004 at 07:39 AM.
01-22-2004, 10:01 AM #6
SERM's boost LHRH lvl which boosts LH level. HCG is LH, LHRH is GnRH. So if SERM's boost LHRH which boosts LH then SERM's would cause the exact same loss in 'male hormone levels' that LHRH would. SERMs = LHRH precursor which is a HCG precursor. Giving raw HCG yes the body wont enjoy recovery, but it will get shocked into not losing muscle mass much better than what you could do with a SERM. If LHRH lowers hormone lvls then explain this...
Differential control of luteinizing hormone and follicle-stimulating hormone secretion by luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone pulse frequency in man
To test the hypothesis that the frequency of pulsatile LHRH stimulation can differentially control LH and FSH secretion in man, we administered low doses of LHRH in pulsatile fashion in several different regimens to men with idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) and presumed endogenous LHRH deficiency. In study 1, four men with IHH received a constant amount of LHRH per day in three different frequencies. After an initial 7-day period of LHRH (5.0 micrograms every 2 h), the men received 2.5 micrograms every 1 h and 7.5 micrograms every 3 h, each for 4 days, in varying order. Frequent blood samples were obtained before LHRH administration and at the end of each regimen. Before LHRH administration, mean serum FSH and LH levels were low [28 +/- 3 (+/- SEM) and 6 +/- 2 ng/mL, respectively], and they increased into the normal adult male range during LHRH treatment. As the frequency of LHRH administration decreased from every 1 to 2 to 3 h, serum FSH levels progressively increased from 99 +/- 33 to 133 +/- 34 to 181 +/- 58 ng/mL (P less than 0.05). Serum LH levels (34 +/- 6, 33 +/- 6, and 34 +/- 5 ng/mL) were significantly higher than those before LHRH administration and did not differ significantly among the three regimens. Total serum testosterone (T), estradiol, and free T levels were increased by LHRH, but were not significantly different during the three regions of LHRH administration. In study 2, three men with IHH received the same amount of LHRH per dose, given in two different pulse frequencies; 2.5 micrograms LHRH were administered in frequencies of every 0.5 h and every 1.5 h, each for 4 days, in varying order. During the 0.5 h frequency, the mean serum FSH level was 42 +/- 13 ng/mL, and it rose to 80 +/- 19 ng/mL during the 1.5 h frequency (P less than 0.05). Corresponding mean serum LH levels were 25 +/- 5 and 27 +/- 4 ng/mL. Serum T and estradiol levels were not significantly different during the two LHRH regimens. We conclude that the frequency of LHRH stimulation can differentially control FSH and LH secretion by the human pituitary gland, and the pattern of hormonal stimulation may be a determinant of target organ response.
After a cycle that one did NOT use HCG in, it would make total sense to use a triple threat precursor approach to PCT. That means HCG ontop of LHRH and Nolvadex . This way your getting 3 stages in HPTA recovery, drop the HCG first, then the LHRH then the nolvadex and you'd theoretically get a recovery far superior to either one on its own. ANYTHING that increases LH is going to cause an increase in its resistance, this is true with basically every hormone in the human body. But on a cycle, ur LH/LHRH levels are going to be so dead that ur resistance is going to drop to non-existent. It makes TOTAL sense (to me at least), to shock ur body with pure LH, as well as LHRH in PCT. Everythings fresh theres no resistance. LH itself wont recover the body, because its the same as shooting exogenous test, but LHRH shouldnt have a negative feedback system in the way that LH would, otherwise nolva and clomid would become inferior products at a rate equal to LHRH... at least logically.
01-22-2004, 11:18 AM #7
When you are shut down you have a deficiency of GnRH release. Supplementing this with GnRH makes no sense, as you are recovering nothing. It will do nothing to restore hypothalmic functionality, it will in fact suppress it further.
It's like saying you are going to recover your natural testosterone levels by supplementing with testosterone .
That abstract has no relevance to a body builder attempting to restore normal hormonal balance. The men in that study had no balance to restore and that therapy would have to be continued indefinitely to maintain androgen levels.
01-22-2004, 01:42 PM #8Originally Posted by longhornDr
01-22-2004, 03:44 PM #9
True that article only covers what the actual effects of LHRH are.
But what Im saying is...
Say you just did a 24 week Test Enth, Tren Enth, EQ cycle. 2 weeks after ur last inject youd start with 1,500iu/eod for 2 weeks. This'll be like a 'bridge' with steps down. At the third week youd use LHRH at 40mcg/ed and 750iu/eod HCG for 2 more weeks. Then you'd drop the HCG, run 20mcg/ed LHRH, and 40mg/ed Nolvadex for 2 more weeks. Then you'd drop the LHRH, and run 20mg/ed Nolvadex for 2-6 more weeks (depending on individual recovery status). You'd also NOT want to run ANY HCG/Nolva/Clomid on the cycle. Why not? Your supplementing the test, use an anti-aromatase for the estrogen -- no need for the HCG on cycle. Plus, you would want to keep the LH/LHRH in undetectable amounts on cycle, so that the LH receptors would be more receptive.
Also if ur running a GH/IGF-1 cycle, run it through ur PCT (definetly help keep gains). Insulin and T3 could be used as well during PCT.
Too many people overlook the importance of PCT, def. most important part of any cycle.
01-22-2004, 04:03 PM #10Originally Posted by Foxy Sphinx
01-22-2004, 04:06 PM #11
Sorry if this sounds condescending but you do not seem to understand how GnRH works.
As you can see in that abstract, GnRH analogs have to be administered in a pulsatile fashion with very specific frequency.
If the levels of GnRH are not pulsatile in nature (and the frequency is critical) then FSH/LH are completely surpressed, it's medical castration.
You would have to be injecting up to 24 times (more probably) a day.
And even if you did manage to do that, at the end of the "therapy" your hypothalamus is still shut down and youve made no progress in recovery.
01-22-2004, 05:00 PM #12
You are also suggesting a 12 week PCT here! That's also 12 weeks that your natural test production will not be recovering.
Have you ever done a cycle and experienced the "shutdown" that everyone talks about? Do you know from experience that all this fancy stuff, not to mention expensive and hard to find stuff, will do anything to aid recovery post cycle? All the experience and evidence is pointing to no, it won't help, and no, you haven't tried it, and no you haven't experienced any PCT.
Clomid or clomid/nolva is easy to get, easy to use, and most importantly, it works. Longer cycles may benefit from the use of HCG toward the end to increase testicle size and capacity to function again, but for most average cycles, this is not necessary.
01-22-2004, 10:45 PM #13Originally Posted by motoxxxguy
Sad world you live in bro.
01-26-2004, 08:48 AM #14
Using T-3 during post cycle therapy is a good way to lose a lot of muscle really quickly. The reason why you don't want to use LHRH or HCG during post cycle is because while they'll both stimulate testosterone production, they repress LHRH production. It all starts back at the source. You need to turn your hypothalamus back on before you can turn your pituitary back on before you can turn your testes back on. I hope you realize that this is common sense. Presense of any exogenous hormone in your body inhibits its own production.
Originally Posted by Foxy Sphinx
01-26-2004, 02:03 PM #15
EEEK! Plese don't go and use LHRH for recovery purposes. Initial administration does result in an increase in circulating LH/FSH levels, subsequently leading to a TRANSIENT increase in gonadal steroids . But continued use leads to a decrease in LH/FSH levels and decreases test to castration levels. This happens within a matter of 2-4 weeks. That is why LHRH is used! It is an anti-neoplastic drug. It may sound good on paper, and may work initially, but it should not be messed with. Even if you were to use it, going back to what doc said, it would be extremely difficult to mimic the pulsatile pattern to be of any benefit other than castration. Stick with what we know works, unless you know something we haven't figured out yet?
Last edited by ichabodcrane; 01-26-2004 at 02:14 PM.
01-26-2004, 03:38 PM #16Originally Posted by Foxy Sphinx
01-26-2004, 04:06 PM #17
There is nothing wrong with throwing out new theories but don't be upset if they don't pan out. You got very good reasons why it is not a good idea by some of the most knowledgeable and respectable people on this board. It certainly seems reasonable that people are going to question your experience in this area when you keep trying to defend what seems to most to be a dangerous and foolish idea.
01-27-2004, 12:50 PM #18
Foxy is a typical arrogant kid. Under no circumstances even in the face of unrefutable evidence can he possibly admit that he's wrong.
01-27-2004, 01:00 PM #19Foxy is a typical arrogant kid. Under no circumstances even in the face of unrefutable evidence can he possibly admit that he's wrong.
01-27-2004, 02:13 PM #20
You can read everything you want, and learn more than anyone else, but if you don't know how to apply that knowledge in a useful manner, what good is it? You're just "book smart". Quality research is better than quantity research anyday.
I agree with CA here, and it's kinda funny really.
01-27-2004, 02:33 PM #21
moto- i'll let you see my sig again lol....
dont sweat the small stuff, da,m i'm just full of them today...
and as a side note- this entire thread was pretty much over my head, guess i'll stick with what works... nolva, clomid
01-27-2004, 02:36 PM #22
foxys profile is umm "unique" for anyone who would like to read it.
01-27-2004, 03:03 PM #23
01-28-2004, 11:06 AM #24Originally Posted by Foxy Sphinx
01-28-2004, 01:21 PM #25Originally Posted by zx7racing
01-28-2004, 02:42 PM #26I don't use steroids.
01-28-2004, 09:58 PM #27Originally Posted by King Test
Last edited by chrisAdams; 01-29-2004 at 10:41 AM.
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