The danger of using anti-estrogens?

During a conversation with a med student, who is far into his studies and rotations, I mentioned why anti-estrogens are used in cycles. He has just started using steroids and was absolutely shocked that I could speak so glibly about terms which occasionally sent him scrambling for his doctor's handbook (a list of terms, abbreviations, medications, definitions, etcetera).

I have to stop here and say that every time my medical student friend opened that little book to check on what I had told him, I smirked and quietly thanked AR for all the information I had learned.

Okay, back to the topic at hand...

He mentioned that he was not interested in using anti-estrogens because they tend to make bones brittle if they are used over extended periods of time. Of course, I explained to him why they are used--including reducing/preventing aromitization, minimizing the presence of and the effects of estrogen, and regulating lipids. I think that he held onto the idea of not using anti-estrogens in a half hearted attempt to save his ego after being corrected and stumped so many times by me, a person completely outside the field of medicine.

Of course, I checked out what he said, and there is some truth to it; anti-e's can make bones brittle. For example, Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) preserves bone in postmenopausal women but induces bone wasting (brittleness) in premenopausal women. Where do men fall into this picture? What about men who use steroids and anti-e's for the better part of each year?

Does anyone have any more information on brittle bones and anti-e's?

The Nolva reaction between Post and Premeno women has to do with the agonistic and antagonistic effects a SERM can have. In postmeno, it's having an agonistic effect

It is a possiblity but with the duration and dose we use them, I don't see it being a concern. I'll try and dig up some studies on pubmed tomorrow at my other computer, and I'm willing to bet, that they show prolonged use-meaning several years and probably at doses we don't see(at least at maintenance levels).

I have never heard anything about this with AI's but assume it could have the same effect. A lot of the AI's used are pretty new to the table so studies may have not been able to be completed to a full extent yet

I doubt an athletic person using anabolic steroids would need to worry about bone wasteing... I would assume the better part of these people would have a very strong structure (for the most part due to the anabolics and intensive training). How often do you hear of a bodybuilder breaking his hip? Or a bone fracture from pushing 405+ on a flat bench press? I am more concerned about excessive estrogen production then I am any neglagible effects an anti-e might have on osteoblasts... aside form edema, fat/water retention, irritablilty from elevation of total blood hormones; I don't want to deal with gyno anytime soon...

Pheedno is on the right track. Females only get brittle bones when they have extended periods with no estrogen. i.e. not having their period because of an eating disorder thus abnormally low female body fat levels. It is common in female athletes. Too much exercise, too little food, too little body fat. Their period stops occuring and estrogen production slows and halts. After extended periods of time with little estrogen female athletes in their 20's can have the bones of 70 year olds.

However, not only must they have long periods of time with no estrogen the bones themselves take fairly long to become brittle. With the duration and dosages we take anti-e's there should be little to worry about.

The only time where it could pose a problem is long cycles with no stoppages, and heavy doses of anti-e's. And even then it is much more rare in males than females. I hope this helps.

-Oak

Bask8kase- I work with med students everyday at the hospital - you can fill volumes with what they don't know.LOL Bone wasting is a postmenopausal women problem - unless you just sit on your ass and don't eat enough calcium. Pheedno is dead right. Our duration that we use them for there should be no delitrious effects.

Are you guys saying things that just feel right (opinions) or do you guys have information to back this up? I like to be able to look at studies or any solid information that supports opinions. Please post any references.

I don't have the time to pull up any current studies that are applicable to this topic, but I can tell you I have read many studies on this subject area and they all indicate that extended durations of use equate to the bone fragility that is common in women, especially as they extend into menopause..Our applications present very little worry of this becoming an issue, unless on the very rare occasion a male is prone to the development of osteoporosis..Your Med student is just going on information that is provided through text books and for general population purposes..We as BB's do not fall into the "General Population"..

Doc M

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Originally Posted by Warrior

I doubt an athletic person using anabolic steroids would need to worry about bone wasteing... I would assume the better part of these people would have a very strong structure (for the most part due to the anabolics and intensive training). How often do you hear of a bodybuilder breaking his hip? Or a bone fracture from pushing 405+ on a flat bench press? I am more concerned about excessive estrogen production then I am any neglagible effects an anti-e might have on osteoblasts... aside form edema, fat/water retention, irritablilty from elevation of total blood hormones; I don't want to deal with gyno anytime soon...

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I also am more concerned about estrogen production than brittle bones. However, is it not true that excessive AAS use can cause your muscles to get too strong for your frame to support? I would say this is only in rare circumstances when a bodybuilder shatters a few bones by say, squating too much, or power cleans etc. but it is someting to think about -for arguments sake- when combining the weaker bones and stronger muscles I would think these injuries would be more common.... of course they are not and so i am wrong. just trying to debate all sides here.....

Doc,

Are there any known limits that tend to cause bone brittleness in men?

I'm not concerned about immediate damage. I'm looking to the future, when I'm (G-d willing) elderly. I'd like to know what kind of long term damage I could possibly do to myself by using AS, anti-e's, etcetera. It's a constant concern of mine that I want to satisfy. That's why I want to learn more about this.

I understand what you're saying Doc, but for my peace of mind, it's not enough just to accept someone's word for it and take the risks without my taking time to read more and to know more about the subject.

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Originally Posted by Doc M

We as BB's do not fall into the "General Population"..

Doc M

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Agreed, and I think thats a good thing :wg:
Intersting info guys!

BASK..There is certainly nothing wrong with wanting to seek out information that is pertinent to you..I would have to question anyone that wanted to use AS and not take time to do research prior to doing so..It's good for me to see guys like you that are on a constant quest for knowledge..

I wish I had some definitive answer to your questions about AS use and long term effects..Unfortunately the Medical Community as a whole has neglected this and now with the advent of some of these drugs (AS) being integrated into many therapies (HIV, Hepatitis, etc) we have realized the necessity of conducting accurate and documented studies..I am rare (within the medical community) in regard to my feelings on AS use and the dangers of it..I firmly believe that with responsible use it can be very safe in the long term if it is used within reasonable doses..I will further say that when the line is crossed and the higher doses are introduced with some of the more toxic drugs, it's really a roll of the dice..I hope that in 5-7 years, studies will be documented and peer reviewed on the effects of AS use and what some of the long term implications are going to be..Unfortunatley, I don't have those answers..

Doc M

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Originally Posted by BASK8KACE

I'm not concerned about immediate damage. I'm looking to the future, when I'm (G-d willing) elderly. I'd like to know what kind of long term damage I could possibly do to myself by using AS, anti-e's, etcetera. It's a constant concern of mine that I want to satisfy. That's why I want to learn more about this.

I understand what you're saying Doc, but for my peace of mind, it's not enough just to accept someone's word for it and risk the chances without taking time to read more and know for myself.

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Doc M,

Thanks for you frank answer and helpful information. I look forward to reading your posts when you occasionally pop up and answer the challenging questions on the board.

This is all a part of the game, and why we need places like AR. If we all keep digging here and there, we'll eventually find and put the pieces together.

I am waiting for the medical community to finally produce thorough studies on AS. I thought they would have done and printed conclusive studies by now because of the sudden prevalence of hormone therapies for hypogonadism, diseases such as HIV, etcetera.

If anything comes across your plate about this subject and you remember this thread, please post it or PM me.

I will certainly post and pass along pertinent information as it is filtered out to the Medical Community..

Doc M

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Originally Posted by BASK8KACE

Doc M,

Thanks for you frank answer and helpful information. I look forward to reading your posts when you occasionally pop up and answer the challenging questions on the board.

This is all a part of the game, and why we need places like AR. If we all keep digging here and there, we'll eventually find and put the pieces together.

I am waiting for the medical community to finally produce thorough studies on AS. I thought they would have done and printed conclusive studies by now because of the sudden prevalence of hormone therapies for hypogonadism, diseases such as HIV, etcetera.

If anything comes across your plate about this subject and you remember this thread, please post it or PM me.

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Originally Posted by symatech

I also am more concerned about estrogen production than brittle bones. However, is it not true that excessive AAS use can cause your muscles to get too strong for your frame to support? I would say this is only in rare circumstances when a bodybuilder shatters a few bones by say, squating too much, or power cleans etc. but it is someting to think about -for arguments sake- when combining the weaker bones and stronger muscles I would think these injuries would be more common.... of course they are not and so i am wrong. just trying to debate all sides here.....

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I have never read anything of the sort other than muscle bellies growing too fast (with the bodybuilding use of AAS) that they basically choke out connective tissue (tendons/ligaments) - this is a rare occurance though. But it is one reason why a beginner shouldn't jump right into AAS use and one should also have several years of BB experience prior to the use of exogenous hormones... to properly fine tune the body and strengthen the connective tissue for periods of what will pretty much be abnormal growth...

From my research, AAS DOES favor the production of osteoblast for increased bone density but DOES NOT aid in strengthening connective tissue...

BASK8CASE - Here are a few - but do some searches in the abstracts for bone, osteoblasts and estrogen. You will find many more studies on sex steroids (and thier antagonists) on bone...

Sex Steroids and Bone

"Compston, Juliet E. Sex Steroids and Bone. Physiol. Rev. 81: 419-447, 2001.http://physrev.physiology.org/math/1...rmal/mdash.gifSex steroids are essential for skeletal development and the maintenance of bone health throughout adult life, and estrogen deficiency at menopause is a major pathogenetic factor in the development of osteoporosis in postmenopausal women. The mechanisms by which the skeletal effects of sex steroids are mediated remain incompletely understood, but in recent years there have been considerable advances in our knowledge of how estrogens and, to a lesser extent androgens, influence bone modeling and remodeling in health and disease. New insights into estrogen receptor structure and function, recent discoveries about the development and activity of osteoclasts, and lessons learned from human and animal genetic mutations have all contributed to increased understanding of the skeletal effects of estrogen, both in males and females. Studies of untreated and treated osteoporosis in postmenopausal women have also contributed to this knowledge and have provided unequivocal evidence for the potential of high-dose estrogen therapy to have anabolic skeletal effects. The development of selective estrogen receptor modulators has provided a new approach to the prevention of osteoporosis and other major diseases of menopause and has implications for the therapeutic use of other steroid hormones, including androgens. Further elucidation of the mechanisms by which sex steroids affect bone thus has the potential to improve the clinical management not only of osteoporosis, both in men and women, but also of a number of other diseases related to sex hormone status."


Estrogens and progestogens conserve bone in rats deficient in calcitonin and parathyroid hormone

"Either low or high doses of GH or E2 alone only partially prevent cancellous bone loss. However, the combined treatment of GH plus E2 resulted in an additive increase in the cancellous bone mass. We conclude that the additive effect of GH plus E2 on cancellous bone is attributed to the suppressive effect of E2 on bone resorption and the anabolic effect of GH on bone formation."


Effects of estrogen on growth plate senescence and epiphyseal fusion

"Estrogen treatment accelerated the senescent decline in all of these parameters. In senescent growth plates, epiphyseal fusion was observed to be an abrupt event in which all remaining chondrocytes were rapidly replaced by bone elements. Fusion occurred when the rate of chondrocyte proliferation approached zero. Estrogen caused this proliferative exhaustion and fusion to occur earlier. Our data suggest that (i) epiphyseal fusion is triggered when the proliferative potential of growth plate chondrocytes is exhausted; and (ii) estrogen does not induce growth plate ossification directly; instead, estrogen accelerates the programmed senescence of the growth plate, thus causing earlier proliferative exhaustion and consequently earlier fusion."

Men do not have to worry about brittle bones from anti-e's because we have much higher levels of androgens that support bone density, women rely on estrogen alone which is why they get in trouble with anti-e's premenopause.

I have no studies on hand right now. But I know the information I posted is accurate.

Longhorn is right ...also Longhorn - love that sig line - story of my life LOL

Warrior - good info at that link Bro

In any case, the whole point of using anti-e's during cycle is to keep estrogen within physiological levels.

BASK8KACE if you are really worried about this then go have an estradiol assay done on your blood while on cycle and taking, say, 1mg of Adex ED. Then you'll know what you need to do to, if anything, to keep your estrogen normal.

RB

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Originally Posted by arby

In any case, the whole point of using anti-e's during cycle is to keep estrogen within physiological levels.

BASK8KACE if you are really worried about this then go have an estradiol assay done on your blood while on cycle and taking, say, 1mg of Adex ED. Then you'll know what you need to do to, if anything, to keep your estrogen normal.

RB

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Thanks, arby.

I get a full blood test at least anually. I'll ask to have that included.

I have Arimidex and Proviron. When I use A-dex, I keep it to 1mg every 3 days. When I'm not using Arimidex, I use 50mg of Proviron every day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BASK8KACE

Doc M,

Thanks for you frank answer and helpful information. I look forward to reading your posts when you occasionally pop up and answer the challenging questions on the board.

This is all a part of the game, and why we need places like AR. If we all keep digging here and there, we'll eventually find and put the pieces together.

I am waiting for the medical community to finally produce thorough studies on AS. I thought they would have done and printed conclusive studies by now because of the sudden prevalence of hormone therapies for hypogonadism, diseases such as HIV, etcetera.

If anything comes across your plate about this subject and you remember this thread, please post it or PM me.

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I'm too tired to get any references now either, but the remarkable effect that resistance training has on bone remodeling, which favors dramatically denser bones, is going to offset any minor, if any, detrimental effects of anti-e's in healthy young males.

Also, don't hold your breathe waiting for any relevant AAS studies, as the doses used by most are much higher than anything that would be approved for human subjects. The best we can do is extrapolate from the low dose and/or short duration studies on groups of people with already compromised health (AIDS patients, elderly, MD patients, etc.)

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Originally Posted by einstein1905

I'm too tired to get any references now either, but the remarkable effect that resistance training has on bone remodeling, which favors dramatically denser bones, is going to offset any minor, if any, detrimental effects of anti-e's in healthy young males.

Also, don't hold your breathe waiting for any relevant AAS studies, as the doses used by most are much higher than anything that would be approved for human subjects. The best we can do is extrapolate from the low dose and/or short duration studies on groups of people with already compromised health (AIDS patients, elderly, MD patients, etc.)

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If you have access to relevent studies, I'd appreciate you posting them here when you're not so tired. (It's not helpful if you have access to relevent the studies and won't share them or won't post references.)

Warrior,
Thank you for your post. That was the kind of info I was looking for.
To Everyone who responded:
Thanks for the feedback. Based on the reposnses it looks like the anti-e's won't cause a major problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BASK8KACE

If you have access to relevent studies, I'd appreciate you posting them here when you're not so tired. (It's not helpful if you have access to relevent the studies and won't share them or won't post references.)

Warrior,
Thank you for your post. That was the kind of info I was looking for.
To Everyone who responded:
Thanks for the feedback. Based on the reposnses it looks like the anti-e's won't cause a major problem.

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http://63.115.29.1/App/PersonalInfo.aspx?cr=cwilliams
However, this man's problem stemmed from having insufficient estrogen levels during growth as well as after growth had stopped, as his growth plates had never actually sealed, which they proposed may have been a major contributing factor.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

This one's good:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3K-460MFPJ-7&_user=27541&_handle=W-WA-A-A-AV-MsSAYWA-UUW-AUDZYVCDBC-WVBYZBUWC-AV-U&_fmt=full&_coverDate=07%2F01%2F2002&_rdoc=7&_orig=browse&_srch=%23toc%234949%232002%23999869994%23320714!&_cdi=4949&view=c&_acct=C000002898&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=27541&md5=5eb923f14598ba557956ad41ecd54019

If someone can't access this, I can email the pdf to you.

Elucidation of estrogen receptor function in bone with the use of mouse models
Sara H. Windahla, Göran Anderssonb and Jan-Åke Gustafsson, c
a Dept Biosciences, Karolinska Institutet, Novum, Huddinge, SE-14157, Sweden
b Division of Pathology, Karolinska Institutet, Huddinge University Hospital, Huddinge, SE-14186, Sweden
c Dept Medical Nutrition, Karolinska Institutet, Novum, Huddinge, SE-14157, Sweden
3. Estrogens versus androgens in bone
The importance of estrogen synthesis or action in maintenance of bone mineral density especially in male has been well established especially from the bone phenotype in ER knockout mice [12] and aromatase knockout mice [1, 2 and 3]. Mutations of these two genes have been actually found in male young patients, leading to osteoporosis and tall height [4, 5, 6 and 13]. Since these young patients have high level of testosterone production, predominant importance of estrogens in bone metabolism over testosterone especially in male adolescence has been suggested. As to the androgen and bone, clinical studies have suggested that combined therapy of estrogens plus androgens may enhance bone mineral density and bone mass to a more significant degree than estrogen therapy alone in postmenopausal women [14]. However, the mechanism of androgen action on bone metabolism remains controversial. The effect is partly through the effects of aromatase to transform the androgen to estrogen as demonstrated in this paper. Alternatively, androgen may directly acts on bone. This is because AR is expressed in chondrocytes, osteoblasts, osteocytes [15] and osteoclasts [16]. And also administration of antiandrogens to female mice resulted in osteopenia, suggesting the direct role of AR in bone metabolism [17].

Most recently, two groups [18 and 19] independently published the phenotypes of AR knock out mouse. Interestingly, AR knock out mouse showed osteopenia with rather enhanced bone resorption [18]. This is basically very similar to the bone phenotype observed in ER or aromatase knockout mouse (AR KO) ( Fig. 3). Since it has been thought that testosterone affects bone formation rather than bone resorption [20], the mechanism seems to be somewhat unexpected in that bone resorption was more dominant in AR knock out mouse mouse. Since estrogen level in AR KO mouse was shown to be normal, the direct effect of androgen on bone is thought to be indeed important for BMD maintenance. However, patients with androgen insensitivity syndrome, a good model for the AR effect on human bone, does not show so dramatic decrease in BMD, and results in a moderate deficit in spinal or femoral neck BMD [21]. Considering the moderate deficits in BMD of AIS patients compared with the severe BMD loss in patients with ER or aromatase deficiency, we may safely say that estrogen likely plays more dominant role than testosterone in total effects of sex steroids on bone metabolism.


This one's not directly relevant, but it should serve as a warning for teens wanting to juice:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

They don't have anyone putting together any reliable AAS studies, but they have people funding research for this?!!...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract