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I am on cycle now, and have had the normal amount of testicle shrinkage and reduction in ejaculation volume. I started taking tribulus 5 days ago, and my testicles are gaining size, are harder (as opposed to soft when they shrink), and my ejaculate volume has improved. I am flat out amazed. This has honestly worked better for me than HCG ever has. No bull****.
Tribulus rocks!
(though I think it is giving my incredible heart burn)
must have had some bunk hcg.....
HCG is the bomb for the little buddies....Trib is a good herbal choice, but it should'nt come close to real HCG.
I have ran HCG at least a dozen times. The first few times I got amazing results. Then the results deminished over time. Not sure if I am desensitized to it, or if the protocol of 500iu E4D or sat/sun just isn't enough for me. Regardless of the HCG issue, the tribulus is seriously working for me. Far beyond what I though would be possible with a herbal remedy.
I am truly amazed with it.
interesting....good to hear it works well for you broQuote:
Originally Posted by Solrock
Tribb works for me.
Use it myself with good results.
I hear that HCG when used for a while looses its potency. So that might be why you got great results off of trib. FWIW I use a gram of trib throughout the cycle and 4 grams in PCT.
I use trib as well when I am on cycle, I love it...Haven't ever used HCG, but I use Tribulus and Yohimbe with clomid for PCT.IT ALL WORKS ****ING GREAT, the boys are back after a week!!!
what brand of trib are you guys using that is so great?
Sopharma tribestan brought my nuts back pretty fastQuote:
Originally Posted by QbHunter
good to know. thak you for the post, bro
i like it too...
I use the NOW brand of Tribulus. The only brand I have tried so far.
I was using Biotest then I switched to Twin Labs... now I use Vitamin Shopp brand and can't tell the difference between any of them.
Can tribulus potentially cause elevated estrogen levels? I have read claims that it suppresses elevated levels and raises suppressed levels -- but what about raising estrogen too much?
B
I don't think it raises your test levels high enough to be converted over to estrogen but I could be wrong.
Thats what I thought as well. Im not sure if you saw my earlier thread about gyno 1.5 yrs after my last cycle ... but just realised that this could be attributable to the Trib I was taking. I stopped about 2 weeks ago. The Tribulus is called "Tribulus 20 000" (yes, 20 000) by Balance Muscle (Australian Comp). Apparently (according to the guy in the store) it is very powerful, and the best on the market. So, this is the only thing that I could think of that is causing this problem. Strange and unheard of ....
B
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/...terrestris.htm
Ah ok -- here is the article I was referring to. I think if the tribulus is strong enough, elevated estrogen levels definitely can occur. I think I am living proof of that!
I first read of a tribulus terrestris product called Tribestan®, which I believe was the first tribulus terrestris product marketed to the public, in Dan Duchaine’s Underground Steroid Handbook. Since that time I have accumulated mostly second hand accounts of how, and how well, it works. Tribulus is an herbal supplement used since the late 70's in Eastern Europe. It’s purported effects include increased luteinizing hormone release and thus testosterone production, increased sperm production, increased ejaculatory volume, and increased libido. In young patients with a condition known as hypogonadism, an increase in pubic hair has also been observed. All of these effects make tribulus an interesting supplement indeed.
I should tell you at the onset that very little research has been done on tribulus outside of eastern Europe let alone without some association with a Bulgarian company called Sopharma. This makes getting access to independent studies in English very difficult because they are virtually non-existent. Most of the information I will use is provided by Sopharma of Bulgaria. Many of you know that this is the company the manufactures Tribestan®. This does not mean the data is necessarily false, it simply needs to be kept in mind when interpreting the data. Much of their research on tribulus terrestris was used to get patent approval as well as to get the product registered for distribution in the United States.
So why is there so little research done on herbal preparations with medicinal purposes here in the US? For those of you not from the U.S. or not familiar with the American Medical Model I will briefly explain. Here in the U.S. we practice what is sometimes called "rescue medicine". This refers to the fact that we put the overwhelming majority of our funds and man hours into discovering ways to save people from the brink of death. Regardless of what you here on the morning news, there is only a minute percentage of federal moneys spent on exploring preventative medicine. We claim bragging rights to a considerable number of medical innovations all designed to cheat fate (A.K.A. death). If nature has dealt you a bad hand you can count on the American Medical Association to do everything in their Hippocratic power to slip you an Ace or two under the operating table. More often than not this simply prolongs the suffering of the sick as they "enjoy" the sometimes involuntary treatment from medical doctors.
Recently there has been a push from the public to explore more holistic approaches to health. The popularity of "alternative medicine" has been growing every year for the past decade or more. Where are we getting this alternative medicine? From countries in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and of course the Far East. In countries such as China, Bulgaria and the former Soviet Union plants with medicinal properties are taken very seriously. Scientists involved in this research are just as respected as those involved in more traditional "western" medicine, unlike here in the U.S. where they are often labeled as quacks. OK, time to step down form my soap box. Let me finish by saying that things are changing here in the U.S. and I wouldn’t be surprised to see a dramatic paradigm shift in the next couple of years as herbal medicine shows itself profitable to pharmaceutical companies. After all, where do you think the exorbitant amounts of money spent on health care go? That’s right, into the pockets of those working in the health care and pharmaceutical industry.
The original purpose for tribulus terrestris extract was as a "tonic" to treat sexual dysfunction. In animal husbandry studies tribulus extract was shown to stimulate rutting behavior (i.e. attempting to score) in rams as well as boars. When the supplement Tribestan® was given to healthy men (Milanov, 1981) in a dose of 750 milligrams per day for five days, LH and testosterone were elevated 72% and 40% respectively. As you might expect, estradiol was also elevated. In fact estradiol was elevated by 81%! The increase in testosterone is obviously what all the fuss is about, nevertheless, you can’t ignore the fact that whenever you increase testosterone you are going to increase aromatization and therefore estrogen levels. To put these changes in hormone levels into perspective, the reference range for testosterone in men is between 300 - 1,000 ng/dL. The subjects in this study started out with an average of 600 ng/dL and ended up with about 850 ng/dL. This is still well within the "normal" range for men. Estradiol on the other hand went from normal levels of about 76 pg/ml to significantly elevated levels of 137.5 pg/ml. This is well above normal levels which range from about 20-80 pg/ml in men.
So why haven’t people been reporting symptoms of elevated estrogens like bloating and gynecomastia from the use of tribulus products? My first response would be to say because they are not actually experiencing elevated estradiol levels due to the poor quality of most tribulus terrestris supplements. Lab tests (paid for by Sopharma) on several manufacturers of raw tribulus terrestris extract show that the majority don’t contain sufficient levels of protodioscine. Sopharma also went on to test various supplements said to contain tribulus terrestris extract and found most all of them to contain far less than that found in Tribestan®. Another important issue to point out is that tribulus terrestris as an herbal supplement is not the same thing as tribulus terrestris extract. Plain tribulus terrestris looks like any other herb that has been chopped up finely and dried, no different than the dried herbs you buy to cook with (Fig. 1). Tribulus terrestris extract looks much different. It is a reddish brown powder (Fig. 2).
Figure 1. Raw tribulus terrestris Figure 2. Tribulus terrestris extract
Tribulus extract is extremely safe and appears to have no undesirable side effects. One of the reasons Tribulus extract doesn’t seem to have any apparent side effects in research subjects is because it doesn’t push testosterone above "upper" normal levels. The body is seemingly up-regulating aromatization to accommodate for the increase in LH and testosterone. No studies have been done to date to support this but from the changes in testosterone and estradiol respectively I would say there is a good chance this is in fact what is happening.
So to get the most out of tribulus extract I would suggest that you make sure you are in fact taking tribulus terrestris extract. Now that you know what it looks like you should have no problem finding a product that at least appears to be genuine. Although Chrysin has not exactly performed as expected, if you take enough of it you should be able to reduce the amount of aromatization caused by tribulus extract and hopefully increase testosterone levels slightly more. 1.5 -2 grams per day is a good place to start with Chrysin. Obviously an aromatase inhibitor like Arimidex would be perfect if you have access to it. ½ tablet per day would be sufficient for the first week, then ½ tablet every other day for the duration of time using tribulus extract should be enough. You don’t want to completely inhibit aromatase because that will lead to a reduction in GH and IGF-1 levels. As a rule of thumb take as little Arimidex as you need to control symptoms.
Prohormones such as androstenediol and/or norandrostenediol should theoretically also be helpful when taking tribulus extract. To be more precise, tribulus should help prevent or postpone the reduction of LH caused by chronic prohormone intake. I am also assuming that you would be using prohormones to elevate testosterone levels not just to "help" your workouts. This usually requires higher doses of prohormones taken throughout the day and can be accompanied by the usual unwanted side effects. Keep in mind that we are talking about taking 750-1,500 milligrams of pure tribulus extract per day to be effective. Taking less will simply be a waste of money for most people. Upon discontinuation of the tribulus product you should taper your dose over a period of at least 2-3 weeks.
Very very interesting ......... :scratch:
What brand are you using? Anybody else?Quote:
Originally Posted by Solrock
What is HCG?
Solrock,
How much Trib. you using per day?
BB
Trib works very well! as a side note yohimbine seems to be just as effective.
I take trib year round, love the stuff.
Is there really that much differemce between Sopharma Tribestan and other Tribulus Extracts out there? Its just that Sopharma is so expansive in comparison.
its just the original and is a real deal pharm company, im using their prop at the present moment....Nutrex's Vitrix is also a great trib product.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid