Not believing that one can gain past one's natural potential, FACT OR MYTH?

I was reading a very good post by realgains that informed people how to keep gains made with AS. I found the post very informative and helpful, however, it brought up a question. He stated this: "I would like to stress that I and my endochrinologist do not believe one can keep gains above ones natural max, or that level of muscular developement that can be held to without steroids" He also said that the average natural potential of a man is around 195 lean with a bench of 275-300. I do understand that this is average and in no means reflects every individuals natural potential.

I was just wondering how many of you believe this. It seems to me that one will make gains past their natural potential with AS and that with proper pct, etc one can keep about 75% of their gains (that even may be a little conservative). So according to realgains if any of that gain is past my potential then i will lose what i gained until i get to my natural potential. If that is the case, then it seems that one can only continue to gain and stay above one's natural potential with AS, but wouldnt that mean that we would have to continue to take AS for as long as we want to be huge and keep gains above our natural potential. From my experience, people do lose some gains after a cycle but eventually keep most of it and continue to gain slowly natural once again. It may be the case that these people have yet to reach their natural level, but these guys are like 225-240 lean. What do you think?

I think that you are right. It may take time, but your natural capacity to hold muscle is just that, your natural capacity. Given time, anyone will revert back to that level. but the point is how much time will it take? 1 year or 10 years? big difference. Saying "I must juice forever or lose all my size" means two different things if it means "every year" vs "every 10"

Growth hormone may change your capacity also.

"He also said that the average natural potential of a man is around 195 lean with a bench of 275-300"

ive been natural for a good 5 years now, my bodyweight is 183 and my bench max is 415. its ALL mental!

people used to tell me, day by day, "dude one day your gonna hit a wall", as long as you keep talk like that out of your head, your natural potential or unnatural potential will sky rocket.the problem these days, is that people worry too much about what other people think of them.

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Originally Posted by itsallmental

"He also said that the average natural potential of a man is around 195 lean with a bench of 275-300"

ive been natural for a good 5 years now, my bodyweight is 183 and my bench max is 415. its ALL mental!

people used to tell me, day by day, "dude one day your gonna hit a wall", as long as you keep talk like that out of your head, your natural potential or unnatural potential will sky rocket.the problem these days, is that people worry too much about what other people think of them.

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Yeah, i really dont think that it is all mental. One's natural genetic limits have nothing to do with a cognitive process. Reaching one's natural potential has nothing to do with what people think about. The question is just trying to understand if it is a scientific fact that one cannot stay above ones natural potential without AS.

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Originally Posted by backer123

Yeah, i really dont think that it is all mental. One's natural genetic limits have nothing to do with a cognitive process. Reaching one's natural potential has nothing to do with what people think about. The question is just trying to understand if it is a scientific fact that one cannot stay above ones natural potential without AS.

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not trying to push ya, but in my personal opinion i do think its all mental. there are days that, even with 9 hours of rest and an untouchable diet and supps, i feel like ass when i go to lift.yet even more importantly, the last meet i had, i COULD NOT get a single second of sleep b/c my heart was racing just thinking about how well i will do.i didnt get any sleep that night and i felt ass that whole entire day up untill meet time, i popped in a good ole sevendust cd, and waited.my wait time is alot longer than others, for the fact that my first set is well over most peoples lastset( not to sound conceeded but its just the truth bro). well, i got really pissed and started to get mad, a switch just turned on in my head and i came 10 lbs from setting that record i want so bad in my heart.i ended up winning, how i won, i will never know.but after that day, realizing how i got to where i am, how i can do what i do day by day, for me its all a mental game bro.

i have that impressions in my head that "if your not 100% sure that you can do that weight, just pack your **** and go home". Lifting is about commitment to me, you have to commit to moving that weight or else you might as well be wasting your time.especially in powerlifting. you can see the desire in some peoples eyes before they hit a big lift.

i dunno im a little off topic, ignore me.

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Originally Posted by itsallmental

not trying to push ya, but in my personal opinion i do think its all mental. there are days that, even with 9 hours of rest and an untouchable diet and supps, i feel like ass when i go to lift.yet even more importantly, the last meet i had, i COULD NOT get a single second of sleep b/c my heart was racing just thinking about how well i will do.i didnt get any sleep that night and i felt ass that whole entire day up untill meet time, i popped in a good ole sevendust cd, and waited.my wait time is alot longer than others, for the fact that my first set is well over most peoples lastset( not to sound conceeded but its just the truth bro). well, i got really pissed and started to get mad, a switch just turned on in my head and i came 10 lbs from setting that record i want so bad in my heart.i ended up winning, how i won, i will never know.but after that day, realizing how i got to where i am, how i can do what i do day by day, for me its all a mental game bro.

i have that impressions in my head that "if your not 100% sure that you can do that weight, just pack your **** and go home". Lifting is about commitment to me, you have to commit to moving that weight or else you might as well be wasting your time.especially in powerlifting. you can see the desire in some peoples eyes before they hit a big lift.

i dunno im a little off topic, ignore me.

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mental focus will not allow a person to make gains past genetic potential. proper training periodization and nutrition/supplementation can help people make greater strength gains. strength can be altered via training routines but your own genetic mapping (size, weight, bf%, lbm) will not change because you positively think about it. if that was the case i'd be 300 lbs. with 4%bf.

When your gains exceed what your endogenous androgens can maintain then you pretty much have to stay on (use staggered cycles) or bridge between cycles...

I also agree GH might permanently change your natural potential if it leads to hyperplasia.

My opinion is that nobody ever sees their natural potential realized. Do you understand what that says of yourself if you've reached your natural capacity? This means you've done everything feasible, bar none. This simply is not possible. We don't yet even know all of the ways to maximize our potential, let alone are we able to take advantage of these things. So, a great deal of it is all mental....we have not and will not realize our potential. There will always be more you can do to come closer to maximizing your potential, but you'll always fall short.
I read the post you're referring to also, and I thought it was great.....except for him throwing out the numbers of what ones lean mass potential is. No one can put a number to that....you have no idea. Genetics aside, we find new and improved ways to maximize our potential all the time....diet, training, supplements, whatever it may be. Most importantly, effort. No one gives 100%. You can always look back and see where you could have done better, tried harder....an extra rep here, better form there, etc. One's natural capacity is as elusive as it gets. until we know everything there is to know, all we can do is throw out terms like "natural limit/capacity" as a cop out. Use AAS because it makes more efficient use of your hard work and dedication, but don't fool yourself into believing that it was the only option to keep improving.

There is a point where your body won't allow you to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger... and increaseing you anabolic hormones does help create that environment for further growth beyond genetic potential. There's no way Ronnie Coleman (for example) could maintain his size with his endogenous androgen levels no matter how hard he trained or how spot on everything was... there is no way... to come off would be too shrink back to what his natural hormones are able to support.

Look at Flex Wheeler - guy has awesome gentics - but he can't get back to the look he had back in the day... before his health issues required him to put a break on the AAS...

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Originally Posted by Warrior

There is a point where your body won't allow you to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger... and increaseing you anabolic hormones does help create that environment for further growth beyond genetic potential. There's no way Ronnie Coleman (for example) could maintain his size with his endogenous androgen levels no matter how hard he trained or how spot on everything was... there is no way... to come off would be too shrink back to what his natural hormones are able to support.

Look at Flex Wheeler - guy has awesome gentics - but he can't get back to the look he had back in the day... before his health issues required him to put a break on the AAS...

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I agree with you, but what I'm saying is that we don't know best how to maximize our efforts and take complete advantage of diet, training, and supplementation. We get to a point, naturally, where we gain slower and slower for sure, but the reason is more than likely not that we're approaching our natural potential but rather that we are approaching the limits that are determined by our current knowledge and understanding of the human body. AAS or no AAS we aren't anywhere near seeing the limits of mass.

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Originally Posted by einstein1905

I agree with you, but what I'm saying is that we don't know best how to maximize our efforts and take complete advantage of diet, training, and supplementation. We get to a point, naturally, where we gain slower and slower for sure, but the reason is more than likely not that we're approaching our natural potential but rather that we are approaching the limits that are determined by our current knowledge and understanding of the human body. AAS or no AAS we aren't anywhere near seeing the limits of mass.

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I hear ya... too many jump on AAS without really learning how to pulverize out the gains from their body by experimenting and applying different training theories. I get a lot of questions about what to run for how long in real life by people that have obviously spent very little time learning to maximize themselves naturally. The same people mock those that using training diaries or laugh at the idea of training to the brink of vomiting. This goes with the whole "magic pill" idea - "if I take what he is taking I will look like him..." People more in tune to their training will be able keep more of their gains from AAS cycles, need to use less gear in general and make the best gains.

Basically... you are totally correct... AAS should always be thought a supplement and not a crutch...

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Originally Posted by einstein1905

...but the reason is more than likely not that we're approaching our natural potential but rather that we are approaching the limits that are determined by our current knowledge and understanding of the human body.

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True that...

It takes a long time to see your natural max but their is a limit. most guys take up to 10 years of serious natural training to see natural max in size...strength gains can go up for years past this though but they too peak.

I have seen it time and time again bro's....I have been in the game since I was 15 years old and thats was almost 30 years ago.

IMHO you simply cannot hang onto ANYTHING above what your natural T level and other genetically determined factors can maintain. It may take some time to shrink down to your natural max but it's going to happen...and with many gear users its a soon a 3-6 months after they stop gear because they don't know how to train without gear.

That doesn't mean you are not going to be big though as some guys can get pretty darn big without gear. Some guys with a ntually high T level and other good genetic factors can get and stay quite impressive.

RG :)

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Originally Posted by einstein1905

My opinion is that nobody ever sees their natural potential realized. Do you understand what that says of yourself if you've reached your natural capacity? This means you've done everything feasible, bar none. This simply is not possible. We don't yet even know all of the ways to maximize our potential, let alone are we able to take advantage of these things. So, a great deal of it is all mental....we have not and will not realize our potential. There will always be more you can do to come closer to maximizing your potential, but you'll always fall short.
I read the post you're referring to also, and I thought it was great.....except for him throwing out the numbers of what ones lean mass potential is. No one can put a number to that....you have no idea. Genetics aside, we find new and improved ways to maximize our potential all the time....diet, training, supplements, whatever it may be. Most importantly, effort. No one gives 100%. You can always look back and see where you could have done better, tried harder....an extra rep here, better form there, etc. One's natural capacity is as elusive as it gets. until we know everything there is to know, all we can do is throw out terms like "natural limit/capacity" as a cop out. Use AAS because it makes more efficient use of your hard work and dedication, but don't fool yourself into believing that it was the only option to keep improving.

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Yes, it is true that we dont really realize or understand the natural capacity. However, if one is to take steroids it is very possible to surpass ones natural capacity. For the most part, a natural person doesnt understand everything in order to attain complete natural capacity...nobody does. There many things we still do not understand that may help us get even closer to our natural capacity, however, if AS is used it is very easy to surpass these capacities.

Well taking out the argument that medical science is going to make a huge leap in technology (very possible) the truth is when one goes beyond his genetic potential it is a constant struggle to maintain it. Your body is set up for homeostasis and so you reach a point where every activity simply becomes catabolic. I don't believe you can maintain beyond a certain point without staying on AAS and there is a certain point where no amount of known drugs will allow you to get any bigger.