03-08-2004, 03:50 PM #1
Not believing that one can gain past one's natural potential, FACT OR MYTH?
I was reading a very good post by realgains that informed people how to keep gains made with AS. I found the post very informative and helpful, however, it brought up a question. He stated this: "I would like to stress that I and my endochrinologist do not believe one can keep gains above ones natural max, or that level of muscular developement that can be held to without steroids " He also said that the average natural potential of a man is around 195 lean with a bench of 275-300. I do understand that this is average and in no means reflects every individuals natural potential.
I was just wondering how many of you believe this. It seems to me that one will make gains past their natural potential with AS and that with proper pct, etc one can keep about 75% of their gains (that even may be a little conservative). So according to realgains if any of that gain is past my potential then i will lose what i gained until i get to my natural potential. If that is the case, then it seems that one can only continue to gain and stay above one's natural potential with AS, but wouldnt that mean that we would have to continue to take AS for as long as we want to be huge and keep gains above our natural potential. From my experience, people do lose some gains after a cycle but eventually keep most of it and continue to gain slowly natural once again. It may be the case that these people have yet to reach their natural level, but these guys are like 225-240 lean. What do you think?
03-08-2004, 03:55 PM #2
I think that you are right. It may take time, but your natural capacity to hold muscle is just that, your natural capacity. Given time, anyone will revert back to that level. but the point is how much time will it take? 1 year or 10 years? big difference. Saying "I must juice forever or lose all my size" means two different things if it means "every year" vs "every 10"
Growth hormone may change your capacity also.
Last edited by BrokenBricks; 03-08-2004 at 03:57 PM.
03-08-2004, 03:59 PM #3
"He also said that the average natural potential of a man is around 195 lean with a bench of 275-300"
ive been natural for a good 5 years now, my bodyweight is 183 and my bench max is 415. its ALL mental!
people used to tell me, day by day, "dude one day your gonna hit a wall", as long as you keep talk like that out of your head, your natural potential or unnatural potential will sky rocket.the problem these days, is that people worry too much about what other people think of them.
03-08-2004, 04:27 PM #4Originally Posted by itsallmental
Yeah, i really dont think that it is all mental. One's natural genetic limits have nothing to do with a cognitive process. Reaching one's natural potential has nothing to do with what people think about. The question is just trying to understand if it is a scientific fact that one cannot stay above ones natural potential without AS.
03-08-2004, 04:52 PM #5Originally Posted by backer123
i have that impressions in my head that "if your not 100% sure that you can do that weight, just pack your **** and go home". Lifting is about commitment to me, you have to commit to moving that weight or else you might as well be wasting your time.especially in powerlifting. you can see the desire in some peoples eyes before they hit a big lift.
i dunno im a little off topic, ignore me.
03-08-2004, 05:04 PM #6Associate Member
Originally Posted by itsallmental
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03-08-2004, 05:13 PM #7
When your gains exceed what your endogenous androgens can maintain then you pretty much have to stay on (use staggered cycles) or bridge between cycles...
I also agree GH might permanently change your natural potential if it leads to hyperplasia.
03-08-2004, 05:21 PM #8
My opinion is that nobody ever sees their natural potential realized. Do you understand what that says of yourself if you've reached your natural capacity? This means you've done everything feasible, bar none. This simply is not possible. We don't yet even know all of the ways to maximize our potential, let alone are we able to take advantage of these things. So, a great deal of it is all mental....we have not and will not realize our potential. There will always be more you can do to come closer to maximizing your potential, but you'll always fall short.
I read the post you're referring to also, and I thought it was great.....except for him throwing out the numbers of what ones lean mass potential is. No one can put a number to that....you have no idea. Genetics aside, we find new and improved ways to maximize our potential all the time....diet, training, supplements, whatever it may be. Most importantly, effort. No one gives 100%. You can always look back and see where you could have done better, tried harder....an extra rep here, better form there, etc. One's natural capacity is as elusive as it gets. until we know everything there is to know, all we can do is throw out terms like "natural limit/capacity" as a cop out. Use AAS because it makes more efficient use of your hard work and dedication, but don't fool yourself into believing that it was the only option to keep improving.
03-08-2004, 05:28 PM #9
There is a point where your body won't allow you to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger... and increaseing you anabolic hormones does help create that environment for further growth beyond genetic potential. There's no way Ronnie Coleman (for example) could maintain his size with his endogenous androgen levels no matter how hard he trained or how spot on everything was... there is no way... to come off would be too shrink back to what his natural hormones are able to support.
Look at Flex Wheeler - guy has awesome gentics - but he can't get back to the look he had back in the day... before his health issues required him to put a break on the AAS...
03-08-2004, 05:34 PM #10Originally Posted by Warrior
03-08-2004, 05:48 PM #11Originally Posted by einstein1905
Basically... you are totally correct... AAS should always be thought a supplement and not a crutch...
03-08-2004, 05:51 PM #12Originally Posted by einstein1905
03-08-2004, 05:55 PM #13
It takes a long time to see your natural max but their is a limit. most guys take up to 10 years of serious natural training to see natural max in size...strength gains can go up for years past this though but they too peak.
I have seen it time and time again bro's....I have been in the game since I was 15 years old and thats was almost 30 years ago.
IMHO you simply cannot hang onto ANYTHING above what your natural T level and other genetically determined factors can maintain. It may take some time to shrink down to your natural max but it's going to happen...and with many gear users its a soon a 3-6 months after they stop gear because they don't know how to train without gear.
That doesn't mean you are not going to be big though as some guys can get pretty darn big without gear. Some guys with a ntually high T level and other good genetic factors can get and stay quite impressive.
03-08-2004, 05:55 PM #14Originally Posted by einstein1905
03-08-2004, 06:07 PM #15
Well taking out the argument that medical science is going to make a huge leap in technology (very possible) the truth is when one goes beyond his genetic potential it is a constant struggle to maintain it. Your body is set up for homeostasis and so you reach a point where every activity simply becomes catabolic. I don't believe you can maintain beyond a certain point without staying on AAS and there is a certain point where no amount of known drugs will allow you to get any bigger.
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