Checking on a "plan of attack"

**BigGreen** · 03-11-2004, 09:32 AM

An unfortunate turn of circumstances involving a since gone scammer completely deflating my plans to undertake a classic winter bulker followed by summer cutter, has left me without a winter bulker under my belt at this point. Ironically, I made some of my best gains regardless (partly because i was pissed and partly because I'm finally starting to pull it all together; thanks largely to AR) during this time. What I intend to do now, and I'm just checking to see if this jives with the experiences of others, is to spend from now until approximately may 20th cutting naturally. Rather than treat the cycle i have planned for late may through a good chunk of the summer as a pure cutter, I'm hoping that I can start it fairly lean (not contest shape, but certainly in the single digits or lowwww double digits bf-wise) and make it a VERY clean bulk. FYI, i'm planning prop and fina with the temptation of var ever so omnipresent.

I'm hoping to get two things out of this:
1. By dieting fairly aggressively prior to the cycle, I hope to take advantage of the rebound effect I've always advocated and which is explained in more detail in T-mag's delta diet and (I believe) executioner's informative posts on the topic. In this manner, i'll be starting my cycle at the exact moment my body is most "open" to the notion of piling back on some muscle.

2. By starting lean and running two fast acting esters, I'm hoping that I can add muscle with minimal fat accumulation nor (and this important to me) a need to shave off any fat towards the end of the cycle as is so common. I may sacrifice a few pounds in the muscle department overall by doing this, but aesthetically, i think the results will be more impressive.

Thoughts anyone?

**TheMudMan** · 03-11-2004, 09:41 AM

I think it's a great idea and I cycle this way myself........ I don't like getting fat to be big..... I would rather put muscle on lean and slow and grow that way. I'm running a Prop/Fina/EQ/Var cycle now to help me cut up while dieting.

**BigGreen** · 03-11-2004, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by TheMudMan

I think it's a great idea and I cycle this way myself........ I don't like getting fat to be big..... I would rather put muscle on lean and slow and grow that way. I'm running a Prop/Fina/EQ/Var cycle now to help me cut up while dieting.

Have you ever employed that notion of intentionally going into a cycle right at the point where you'd normally rebound the day after a contest? Bill Phillips waaaay back used to advocate this, some people at t-mag still do, and I think it's executioner (friend of pheedno's) who is a BIG advocate of this. Basically you take advantage of the same bodily mechanisms that allow you to throw on 10-15 pounds in five days after the extreme of contest dieting (and the same phenomenon that has people claiming they look better 48 hours after a contest when there diet goes to ****).

**King Test** · 03-11-2004, 10:01 AM

You're not confused, but I think you have the wrong approach. My take is that you want to

a) lean up for around 8 weeks naturally
b) slowly bulk with what would normally be cutting agents

This sounds like a good idea, but cutting naturally is far from favorable IMO. You'll find the results much more satisfying if you have some sort of anabolic in there. Naturally bulking is easier, at least you aren't losing muscle (obviously i would still include an anabolic in there anyway

).

Here's what I would do

a) Make preperations, and start cycle immediately.

b) Include some morning cardio, around 3x a week then bump that to 5x a week after about 4 weeks.
( I cannot stress the importance of this, if it isn't on an empty stomach first thing then forget about it. You can seriously dent your fat deposits with some real dedication to this.)

c) keep your diet restricted, and remember that the morning cardio will be shaving off fat for you. Optimally, you'd be looking at 2500-3000 calories, 60% protein, 20% carb, 20% fat. Obviously this will vary based on your stats.

d) keep your lifting the same, relatively low reps. We're not going for superhuman strength or size gains, but you'll see strength/size gains nonetheless, especially with the addition of Fina.

Depending on your tenacity, you could easily achieve single digit BF and a significant increase in vascularity, size and strength with this cycle. When its all said and done, you will be in the perfect position for either a clean bulker, or another identical cycle where you shed some fat and put on some lean meat.

That's just my opinion, the idea you've got isn't bad. Either way, best of luck!

**TheMudMan** · 03-11-2004, 10:05 AM

No....... I never done that..... I also don't cut my carbs so low durring dieting that I will have a "rebound" effect once I start eatting them again.

My friend competed in November in a show and did what your're talking about. He started his cycle 2 weeks after his show......... He needed time to get his body back from the shock of dropping calrories, fat, carbs.......... 4 months later he's almost 50 pounds heavier and his bf only went up few percentages.

**BigGreen** · 03-11-2004, 10:22 AM

King test, I appreciate the feedback and it makes a whole lot of sense. Especially the unappealing nature of cutting without the use of an anabolic . In a perfect world, that is what I had intended to do....maybe even bridging if times between a clean bulk and real cut ran into one another too closely. However, my timetable got screwed a little and i need to be in my best shape around the 15th of July, as I'm slated to put together a portfolio with a rather small time fitness modeling outfit (though they place fairly well based on what i've seen). I see all your points and wish I could employ them, but the timetable has me more or less married to the notion of what I have above, as I don't want to get overly ambitious with the length of cycle just yet, despite being a (theoretical) fan of longer cycles.

**Testify** · 03-11-2004, 10:32 AM

Both approaches have their own merits. I am doing something similar to Mud right now. Fina/Eq/Prop. I am throwing in some cardio 3X a week (I have been too lazy thusfar to do it in the morning, but I hope to change that). I too placed an emphasis on leaning out a bit - while still strength training beforehand.

I expect a nice little lean bulking cycle, and am already seeing good priliminary results. My weight is up about 10 lbs and my BF is down a bit also. Now I am motivated to really hit the cardio, after seein some nice ab pics over in the Workout forum.

**ColdSore** · 03-11-2004, 10:33 AM

whats up BG, havent seen you around in a while....

I like the idea, and im doing it myself come May 1st. I will be running prop/susp/tren /winny...

I also think bask8case does this so you might pm him...but he had a thread out not to long ago that was talking about doing a cycle eating only 500-1000 cals above your maintenance level in order to put on lean mass slowly w/o fat gain...

I would also like king test said, do cardio in the morning on an empty stomach 3 days a week, and keep workouts very high intensity, but not worry about doing cardio before or after.

What doses are you looking at???

**BigGreen** · 03-11-2004, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by ColdStone

What doses are you looking at???

Very, very standard doses and time lengths in both depts.

Likely 75mg/prop ED for ten weeks and 70mg/tren ED for eight weeks.

The 70mg on tren isn't arbitrary; i just feel a bit more comfortable if my total tren intake at any given time is a hair below my total test intake. It's not much I know, and the difference is likely negligible, but the approximate 40mg more of test over the tren per week just makes me feel a tad bit better about the whole thing. I'd considerd 65mg/day of ten as well, and may go that low....there's still some decisions i have to make concerning the tren.

I do know, however, that I want to wrap up the tren two weeks before the test for sure. Also, like I mentioned in the original post, i keep getting drawn in to the appeal of var.