Cutting in the end of a bulking cycle?

**Swedish_Viking** · 03-13-2004, 10:18 AM

I´m currently on week 1 on my enanthate -cycle. Of course I don´t see any bloat yet but if I should get it, can I add Clen the last two weeks to cut??
Don´t wanna look all bloated when the summer begins. Btw I´m running 20mg nolva all the way.

Thnx

/The Viking

***Pheedno*** · 03-13-2004, 10:26 AM

Use proper ancilleries and retension should not be a problem. Estrogen and diet will dictate retension. Clen won't do much to help. Cutting at the end of a bulker is a bad idea anyhow. After all, it is a bulker

**BigGreen** · 03-13-2004, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Pheedno

Cutting at the end of a bulker is a bad idea anyhow. After all, it is a bulker

There's no question in my mind that Pheedno's understanding of this concept exceeds mine in such a manner that it comes **** close to rendering mine pretty **** basic. That being said, however, I continue to see some merit in finishing off a bulker with a compact cutting phase of sorts; not so much for the benefit of the cycle itself, but for recovery purposes. The principles I'm considering in this (basically the manner in which the body 'rebounds' from a caloric defecit at the hormonal level) are the same that govern the Delta Diet (espoused by someone at T-Mag....thibedeua maybe...sp??) and the ABCDE diet advocated by bill phillips back in the day. Both maintain that the body's own hormonal reaction to a caloric defecit (once calories return above maintenance) causes a spike in testosterone production - among other favorable things. Now, whether or not HPTA issues brought up on by cycling negate these effects, no one has been able to tell me quite for sure. However, there's at least some reason to believe that this approach (a two week mini, but agressive, cutter at immediately prior to PCT) may just aid in the PCT process. Something to think about. But again, solely for recovery issues, not for aesthetics....aesthetically, it's probably not a good idea.

**scottninpo** · 03-13-2004, 12:46 PM

unless you're doing a cycle that's 16+ weeks, i don't think you should bulk and cut, to me, that's doing it half assed, it's best to run two concurrent cycles, start with a twelve week bulker, pct, wait until blood level return to normal, then run a cutter for 8-10 weeks, that way, you get the best of both worlds instead of half of one and half of the other

***Pheedno*** · 03-13-2004, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by BigGreen

There's no question in my mind that Pheedno's understanding of this concept exceeds mine in such a manner that it comes **** close to rendering mine pretty **** basic. That being said, however, I continue to see some merit in finishing off a bulker with a compact cutting phase of sorts; not so much for the benefit of the cycle itself, but for recovery purposes. The principles I'm considering in this (basically the manner in which the body 'rebounds' from a caloric defecit at the hormonal level) are the same that govern the Delta Diet (espoused by someone at T-Mag....thibedeua maybe...sp??) and the ABCDE diet advocated by bill phillips back in the day. Both maintain that the body's own hormonal reaction to a caloric defecit (once calories return above maintenance) causes a spike in testosterone production - among other favorable things. Now, whether or not HPTA issues brought up on by cycling negate these effects, no one has been able to tell me quite for sure. However, there's at least some reason to believe that this approach (a two week mini, but agressive, cutter at immediately prior to PCT) may just aid in the PCT process. Something to think about. But again, solely for recovery issues, not for aesthetics....aesthetically, it's probably not a good idea.

I can see the reasoning behind this.
I think if your planning a cut at the end of your bulker, it would be best to insert an adaption period. For instance, I run two cycles back to back. 12 on 12, but with a 4-6 wk coast period to allow for adaption to the body's new setpoint, ans also to make graduall changes in diet. I think going from one extreme to another(that being the massive change caloric intake between a bulk and cut) would ultimately be detrimental in maintaining waht was first aquired

**hercules88** · 03-13-2004, 02:04 PM

i am doing this as we speak. i bulked for 12 weeks and will be cutting until summer, but i will run gear until week 16-20 not sure yet, i have noticed great things. i gained about 12-15 lbs of quality muscle ( my estimate, put on like almost 30 lbs over all) and have kept it even thuogh i have reduced my calories. granted im a meso so i have an easier time keeping my gains. i agree with most that has been said here as it relates to my experience. so far 3 weeks into the cutting and have not lost an ounce of strenght and i dont think i have lost any size from my reduction of calories. i also reduced my calories slowly to as to not shock my body. hope this helps the debate.

**Rickson** · 03-13-2004, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Pheedno

I can see the reasoning behind this.
I think if your planning a cut at the end of your bulker, it would be best to insert an adaption period. For instance, I run two cycles back to back. 12 on 12, but with a 4-6 wk coast period to allow for adaption to the body's new setpoint, ans also to make graduall changes in diet. I think going from one extreme to another(that being the massive change caloric intake between a bulk and cut) would ultimately be detrimental in maintaining waht was first aquired

I agree with Pheedno. While it looks okay on the surface the truth is you would get very little additional benefit in PCT from the test boost (your body is already working full blast to get back up to normal) but will be very detrimental to fighting catabolism. In the end I think gains will suffer more than any benefit seen in recovery.

**BigGreen** · 03-13-2004, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Rickson

I agree with Pheedno. While it looks okay on the surface the truth is you would get very little additional benefit in PCT from the test boost (your body is already working full blast to get back up to normal) but will be very detrimental to fighting catabolism. In the end I think gains will suffer more than any benefit seen in recovery.

I definitely see your point (both of you) and I oscillate back and forth between liking the idea and hating it for a variety of reasons. Some days I hear a response such as yours and i'm sold, other days I heard something to the contrary and that makes sense too. This is one of those few things where I *really* can't come to any definitive conclusion for myself.