GH Problem..

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03-19-2004, 03:48 PM
ItalianMuscle27

GH Problem..

I have 3 friends that are taking Seizen right now, and all 3 are swelled up and puffy. Is that normal with the Seizen? I have used the Serostim with test, and never blew up like they are. I was using the 6g/18iu kits. They are using the Seizen 15ius, not sure of the g. They all three are running test also. Does anyone have any feedback on the Seizen? I want to run the GH again soon, but not if im going to swell up. The Seizen is readily available, but I have to wait a few months for the Serostim.

X..

They honestly look like swollen stay puff marshmellow men..
03-19-2004, 03:56 PM
Da Bull

How much HGH are they running each day?I've ran the above mentioned at 8 ius ed and was swollen like a pregnant woman.Feet and hands anyway.I dropped it down to 5-6 ius ed and the swelling decreased.
03-19-2004, 03:57 PM
powerlifter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da Bull

How much HGH are they running each day?I've ran the above mentioned at 8 ius ed and was swollen like a pregnant woman.Feet and hands anyway.I dropped it down to 5-6 ius ed and the swelling decreased.

He said 15iu's Yikes !!!! They must look like the Michelin Man LOL :wg:
03-19-2004, 04:01 PM
ItalianMuscle27

I just got off the phone with one of them, they are running 5ius per day. Should they cut down to maybe 3 or 4? I ran the serostim and was only using 3ius/day.

X..
03-19-2004, 04:22 PM
Da Bull

Quote:

Originally Posted by XWhiteDenali

I just got off the phone with one of them, they are running 5ius per day. Should they cut down to maybe 3 or 4? I ran the serostim and was only using 3ius/day.

X..

They should drop the dose down and run some l-dex@ .25mgs ed and Nolv @ 10 mgd ed with the cycle also.Could be a combination of bloat from test combined with HGH.
03-19-2004, 04:45 PM
Solrock

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da Bull

They should drop the dose down and run some l-dex@ .25mgs ed and Nolv @ 10 mgd ed with the cycle also.Could be a combination of bloat from test combined with HGH.

Listen to Da Bull
03-19-2004, 04:59 PM
ItalianMuscle27

thanks for the info DaBull, i relay the info to my boys..

X..
03-19-2004, 05:09 PM
JohnnyB

I wouldn't have them run any type of anti-e it will inhibit the igf-1 which is what make HGH work. You do HGH to get higher igf-1 if you take an anti-e it'll lower your igf-1 which defeats the purpose of the HGH

JohnnyB
03-19-2004, 05:11 PM
ItalianMuscle27

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I wouldn't have them run any type of anti-e it will inhibit the igf-1 which is what make HGH work. You do HGH to get higher igf-1 if you take an anti-e it'll lower your igf-1 which defeats the purpose of the HGH

JohnnyB

I knew i might get some mixed answers. What else should they do then, just cut back on the ius? I know 2 are running cypionate, and the other is running enethante.
03-19-2004, 05:22 PM
einstein1905

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I wouldn't have them run any type of anti-e it will inhibit the igf-1 which is what make HGH work. You do HGH to get higher igf-1 if you take an anti-e it'll lower your igf-1 which defeats the purpose of the HGH

JohnnyB

I want to hear what Pheedno has to say on this, but I think all the studies (I think I saw 2) that correlate tamoxifen use with decreased IGF-1 levels also showed decreased GH levels. This doesn't necessarily mean that nolva will inhibit IGF-1 production via GH, it may just be that tamoxifen, somehow, inhibits GH production/release. Since nolva is estrogenic in liver, I would think GH-->IGF-1 shouldn't be an issue. Since they're taking exogenous GH, that is. Just a theory....not based on anything solid.
03-19-2004, 05:39 PM
JohnnyB

Quote:

Originally Posted by XWhiteDenali

I knew i might get some mixed answers. What else should they do then, just cut back on the ius? I know 2 are running cypionate, and the other is running enethante.

They could bring the hgh down to 3iu and watch the salt intake

JohnnyB
03-19-2004, 05:44 PM
JohnnyB

Quote:

Originally Posted by einstein1905

I want to hear what Pheedno has to say on this, but I think all the studies (I think I saw 2) that correlate tamoxifen use with decreased IGF-1 levels also showed decreased GH levels. This doesn't necessarily mean that nolva will inhibit IGF-1 production via GH, it may just be that tamoxifen, somehow, inhibits GH production/release. Since nolva is estrogenic in liver, I would think GH-->IGF-1 shouldn't be an issue. Since they're taking exogenous GH, that is. Just a theory....not based on anything solid.

The HGH is the precursor to IGF-1 and it's coverted in the liver to IGF-1. Nolva inhibits or decreases IGF-1 I'm assuming in the liver since it's converted there. I'd like to see some studies if anyone has some or one.

JohnnyB
03-19-2004, 06:45 PM
einstein1905

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

The HGH is the precursor to IGF-1 and it's coverted in the liver to IGF-1. Nolva inhibits or decreases IGF-1 I'm assuming in the liver since it's converted there. I'd like to see some studies if anyone has some or one.

JohnnyB

GH definitely is the precursor to IGF-1, but if you have lower GH levels, this will lead to lower IGF-1 levels, even if GH--->IGF-1 is unaffected. If there is a study out there, and there may well be, that shows tamoxifen lowers IGF-1 levels but does NOT lower GH levels, I'll be convinced.
03-19-2004, 06:55 PM
the dent depot

How about letrozole? Doesnt it react favorably with IGF-1?

D
03-20-2004, 09:26 AM
einstein1905

Quote:

Originally Posted by einstein1905

I want to hear what Pheedno has to say on this, but I think all the studies (I think I saw 2) that correlate tamoxifen use with decreased IGF-1 levels also showed decreased GH levels. This doesn't necessarily mean that nolva will inhibit IGF-1 production via GH, it may just be that tamoxifen, somehow, inhibits GH production/release. Since nolva is estrogenic in liver, I would think GH-->IGF-1 shouldn't be an issue. Since they're taking exogenous GH, that is. Just a theory....not based on anything solid.

I just found this study that actually somewhat confirms what I said:

Anticancer Res. 2001 Jan-Feb;21(1B):585-8. Related Articles, Links

Effect of tamoxifen on GH and IGF-1 serum level in stage I-II breast cancer patients.

Mandala M, Moro C, Ferretti G, Calabro MG, Nole F, Rocca A, Munzone E, Castro A, Curigliano G.

Division of Medical Oncology, European Institute of Oncology, Via Ripamonti 435, 20141-Milan, Italy. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: Tamoxifen suppresses insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) plasma levels in early and advanced breast cancer patients. Relationships between tamoxifen (GH) and IGF-1 are complex and not completely described yet. The present investigation was performed to evaluate the effect of acute and chronic tamoxifen administration on GH response to growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH), as well as on IGF-1 serum levels. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Evaluation of GH after administration of GHRH was performed (a) at baseline, (b) 3 hours after 20 mg oral administration of tamoxifen and (c) after 12 weeks of 20 mg a day oral tamoxifen treatment, in fifteen postmenopausal stage I-II breast cancer patients. IGF-I was measured at baseline and after chronic tamoxifen administration. RESULTS: The GH response to GHRH was significantly reduced after 12 weeks of tamoxifen 10 mg administered twice a day orally (mean peak 3.2 +/- 0.2 micrograms/l, mean AUC 261.3 +/- 18.2 micrograms/minute p < 0.01 versus basal AUC). A concomitant significant reduction of IGF-1 was observed after 3 months of tamoxifen treatment. Basal pretreatment levels of 113.2 +/- 15.5 micrograms/l were suppressed to 70 +/- 7.9 micrograms/l (p < 0.01). CONCLUSION: Our study confirm the inhibitory effect of tamoxifen on IGF-I and suggested, as shown in previous in vitro data, that its suppression could be directly related to GH reduction in response to GHRH stimulation

I've also seen where tamoxifen doesn't increase IGF-1 levels but does increase IGFBP3 levels, which lowers the amount of free IGF-1.
03-20-2004, 10:03 AM
ItalianMuscle27

Interesting, i am gonna print this thread for my boys, and for future referenece. Thanks for the help..
03-20-2004, 10:32 AM
Rickson

Quote:

Originally Posted by einstein1905

I just found this study that actually somewhat confirms what I said:

Anticancer Res. 2001 Jan-Feb;21(1B):585-8. Related Articles, Links

Effect of tamoxifen on GH and IGF-1 serum level in stage I-II breast cancer patients.

Mandala M, Moro C, Ferretti G, Calabro MG, Nole F, Rocca A, Munzone E, Castro A, Curigliano G.

Division of Medical Oncology, European Institute of Oncology, Via Ripamonti 435, 20141-Milan, Italy. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: Tamoxifen suppresses insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) plasma levels in early and advanced breast cancer patients. Relationships between tamoxifen (GH) and IGF-1 are complex and not completely described yet. The present investigation was performed to evaluate the effect of acute and chronic tamoxifen administration on GH response to growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH), as well as on IGF-1 serum levels. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Evaluation of GH after administration of GHRH was performed (a) at baseline, (b) 3 hours after 20 mg oral administration of tamoxifen and (c) after 12 weeks of 20 mg a day oral tamoxifen treatment, in fifteen postmenopausal stage I-II breast cancer patients. IGF-I was measured at baseline and after chronic tamoxifen administration. RESULTS: The GH response to GHRH was significantly reduced after 12 weeks of tamoxifen 10 mg administered twice a day orally (mean peak 3.2 +/- 0.2 micrograms/l, mean AUC 261.3 +/- 18.2 micrograms/minute p < 0.01 versus basal AUC). A concomitant significant reduction of IGF-1 was observed after 3 months of tamoxifen treatment. Basal pretreatment levels of 113.2 +/- 15.5 micrograms/l were suppressed to 70 +/- 7.9 micrograms/l (p < 0.01). CONCLUSION: Our study confirm the inhibitory effect of tamoxifen on IGF-I and suggested, as shown in previous in vitro data, that its suppression could be directly related to GH reduction in response to GHRH stimulation

I've also seen where tamoxifen doesn't increase IGF-1 levels but does increase IGFBP3 levels, which lowers the amount of free IGF-1.

Interesting study but not conclusive. I will research as well when I get a chance. Good discussion and would love to see some more studies. I have never noticed any declining results while using low dose Nolvadex and being on HGH but can't say I have ever had baselines compared.
03-20-2004, 10:41 AM
Pheedno

IGF decreases from tamoxifin have been seen in studies, and refuted in others. In any case, I don't see minimal doses(10mg) having a significant effect.

AI's have only been shown to increase IGF in any studies I've seen.

I'll post some studies up here(I'm going back and forth so keep checking)

TAMOX

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...act/137/3/1089

http://www.lf2.cuni.cz/physiolres/19...e2/iss2cl8.htm
03-20-2004, 10:50 AM
Pheedno

Aromatse Inhibitors & Inactivators

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entre...t_uids=9459192

http://www.esmo.org/reference/abstracts00/bc4/142.htm

http://www.esmo.org/reference/abstracts00/bc4/143.htm
03-20-2004, 05:34 PM
JohnnyB

This study brings up something I've been wondering.

Effects of tamoxifen on insulin-like growth factors, IGF binding proteins and IGFBP-3 proteolysis in breast cancer patients.

Gronbaek H, Tanos V, Meirow D, Peretz T, Raz I, Flyvbjerg A.

Institute of Experimental Clinical Research, Aarhus Kommunehospital, Aarhus University Hospital, Aarhus C, Denmark. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Recently an association between increased serum insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) levels and the development of breast cancer was demonstrated. Tamoxifen used in the postoperative treatment of breast cancer patients may exert significant effects on the IGF-I system. MATERIALS AND METHODS: To examine the effect of Tamoxifen treatment (20 mg/day) on changes in the IGF-I axis in 11 breast cancer patients before and after 4 months of Tamoxifen treatment and compared to 8 healthy subjects. IGF-I, IGF-II, IGFBP-1, IGFBP-2, IGFBP-3 and IGFBP-6 were examined by specific assays. IGFBPs were examined by Western ligand blotting and IGFBP-3 proteolytic activity by specific protease assay. RESULTS: Serum IGF-I was decreased before (63%) and increased during Tamoxifen treatment (60%). Total IGFBP-3 levels measured by IRMA were unchanged, however, intact IGFBP-3 measured by WLB was decreased (58%) before and increased (67%) during Tamoxifen treatment. IGFBP-3 proteolysis was increased before and reduced during treatment. IGFBP-4 and IGFBP-6 were decreased before and increased during Tamoxifen treatment. CONCLUSION: Significant changes in the IGF system were demonstrated before and during Tamoxifen treatment and may in part be involved in the effects of Tamoxifen treatment in breast cancer patients.

The reason I've been wondering this is there are studies that show people with cancer have elevated IGF-1, so I though t that maybe nolva reduces IGF-1 in an effort to treat the cancer. Now you got my mind going here, da*n you Pheendo:D

JohnnyB
03-20-2004, 05:55 PM
einstein1905

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

This study brings up something I've been wondering.

Effects of tamoxifen on insulin-like growth factors, IGF binding proteins and IGFBP-3 proteolysis in breast cancer patients.

Gronbaek H, Tanos V, Meirow D, Peretz T, Raz I, Flyvbjerg A.

Institute of Experimental Clinical Research, Aarhus Kommunehospital, Aarhus University Hospital, Aarhus C, Denmark. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Recently an association between increased serum insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) levels and the development of breast cancer was demonstrated. Tamoxifen used in the postoperative treatment of breast cancer patients may exert significant effects on the IGF-I system. MATERIALS AND METHODS: To examine the effect of Tamoxifen treatment (20 mg/day) on changes in the IGF-I axis in 11 breast cancer patients before and after 4 months of Tamoxifen treatment and compared to 8 healthy subjects. IGF-I, IGF-II, IGFBP-1, IGFBP-2, IGFBP-3 and IGFBP-6 were examined by specific assays. IGFBPs were examined by Western ligand blotting and IGFBP-3 proteolytic activity by specific protease assay. RESULTS: Serum IGF-I was decreased before (63%) and increased during Tamoxifen treatment (60%). Total IGFBP-3 levels measured by IRMA were unchanged, however, intact IGFBP-3 measured by WLB was decreased (58%) before and increased (67%) during Tamoxifen treatment. IGFBP-3 proteolysis was increased before and reduced during treatment. IGFBP-4 and IGFBP-6 were decreased before and increased during Tamoxifen treatment. CONCLUSION: Significant changes in the IGF system were demonstrated before and during Tamoxifen treatment and may in part be involved in the effects of Tamoxifen treatment in breast cancer patients.

The reason I've been wondering this is there are studies that show people with cancer have elevated IGF-1, so I though t that maybe nolva reduces IGF-1 in an effort to treat the cancer. Now you got my mind going here, da*n you Pheendo:D

JohnnyB

Thanks for all the good relevant studies BTW, Pheedno. It's not easy to draw any definitive conclusion. Some studies show no change in IGF-1 levels, others show an increase, still others show increases in IGFBP3, which will reduce available IGF-1....and then there are combinations of all the aforementioned.
I'm sticking with my theory on tamoxifen lowering GH, which in turn leads to lower IGF-1 levels, if there is any real lowering at all.
We also have to consider the factors in our lives that are contributing to elevated IGF-1 levels, such as resistance training and high levels of testosterone. It's not necessarily true that for people with normal serum IGF-1 levels, who demonstrate a reported 20% reduction in IGF-1 levels in response to tamoxifen, that people with extraordinarily high IGF-1 levels will see the same % reduction.
03-20-2004, 08:06 PM
JohnnyB

Quote:

Originally Posted by einstein1905

It's not necessarily true that for people with normal serum IGF-1 levels, who demonstrate a reported 20% reduction in IGF-1 levels in response to tamoxifen, that people with extraordinarily high IGF-1 levels will see the same % reduction.

Good point we are a bit different because we train and use gear which increases igf-1

JohnnyB