Any Non-Responders Out There?

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 03:51 PM

Ok lets keep it clean. Assuming your diet and training are in place, does anybody feel that they are a non-responder to steroids ? I ask because I've used several compounds and have seen very, very small gains. The gains which I did see are most likely attributed to awesome diet, rest, and training...and of course the added placebo effect.
I'm talking like in a 10 week period I would only gain maybe 5 lbs. Or if I did a cutting cycle I would lose weight but tons of muscle as well. Steroids are supposedly very anti-catabolic. Assuming my diet and training were perfect, I shouldn't have lost any muscle.
So I restate my question. Is there anybody on here who feels that they are just a non-responder?

P.S. My brother has also tried several compounds. Enter Superdrol, he's done a few cycles of that for 3 weeks at a time. In those 3 weeks it's not uncommon for him to gain 12 lbs of muscle, and +50 pounds on his core lifts.

**Hellmaskbanned** · 09-22-2006, 03:53 PM

WHat have your previous cycles been?

Bunk gear?
You got aids?
There's probly a simple solution to your problem, but you haven't posted much about it....

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 04:00 PM

No STD's, thanks for caring tho =-)

All real stuff, except for some shit from IP back in the day.
First run: Test E/Dbol 8 weeks. Nothing, a whole bunch of headaches.
Second try: RF2 (Rocket Fuel 2). It's Test/Deca 200/mg per ml each. I did 2ml's of that a week for 8 weeks and nothing again. Actually I gained 8 lbs in the first week but I'm thinking that was placebo/increased cals.
Third try: Fina, made by me with an Animal kit. 5 weeks, again about 6 lbs in first week after that nothing.
Current try: Var only, I'm at 90mg daily. Been on for about 4 weeks. All I notice is a very, very slight pump. And a few of my lifts are up. But then again I just switched to a different routine so it's probably the routine/ more focus on nutrition as well.

My experience with AS has been shit. I've never had any gains where I could say "Wow I feel the steroids ."

**godkilla** · 09-22-2006, 04:10 PM

i think we should take a look at your awesome diet

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 04:17 PM

Yes I was eating plenty. For my first three runs I was eating in the neighborhood of 5-6000 calories from natural foods (no processed or frozen crap!).
And I go way beyond busting my ass in the gym.

Remember I said "Assuming diet and training are perfect." I anticipated responses like these, and it's cool as long as you don't flame. But it's definately not my diet and training cuz they are perfect. And the gear has all been real. I'm 110% sure.

Another note, right now my brother is running the Anavar with me. Our calories are lower now. But he's responding so good. He is getting awesome pumps and strength. I'm using the exact same stuff as him. We both went 50/50 on the order. And I'm using 90mg/daily while he's only at 60mg daily. I'm thinking of bumping it to 120mg/daily... but I read there is no point in going past 80mg. I'm already 10mg past 80.

I'd appreciate any insight.

**gaa9679572** · 09-22-2006, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior21

No STD's, thanks for caring tho =-)

All real stuff, except for some shit from IP back in the day.
First run: Test E/Dbol 8 weeks. Nothing, a whole bunch of headaches.
Second try: RF2 (Rocket Fuel 2). It's Test/Deca 200/mg per ml each. I did 2ml's of that a week for 8 weeks and nothing again. Actually I gained 8 lbs in the first week but I'm thinking that was placebo/increased cals.
Third try: Fina, made by me with an Animal kit. 5 weeks, again about 6 lbs in first week after that nothing.
Current try: Var only, I'm at 90mg daily. Been on for about 4 weeks. All I notice is a very, very slight pump. And a few of my lifts are up. But then again I just switched to a different routine so it's probably the routine/ more focus on nutrition as well.

My experience with AS has been shit. I've never had any gains where I could say "Wow I feel the steroids."

how old are you? You're not running any test with that var? Nor did you run any with the fina? lots of opinions out there on this subject (the subject of running test with every cycle), but i just wanted to make note of it. I guess i'm somewhat critical because on paper, it clearly shows that any anatomically mature individual with a good muscle base and proper diet, will see prominent results from increased testosterone levels due to AAS..

**LmbrJak** · 09-22-2006, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior21

No STD's, thanks for caring tho =-)

All real stuff, except for some shit from IP back in the day.
First run: Test E/Dbol 8 weeks. Nothing, a whole bunch of headaches.
Second try: RF2 (Rocket Fuel 2). It's Test/Deca 200/mg per ml each. I did 2ml's of that a week for 8 weeks and nothing again. Actually I gained 8 lbs in the first week but I'm thinking that was placebo/increased cals.
Third try: Fina, made by me with an Animal kit. 5 weeks, again about 6 lbs in first week after that nothing.
Current try: Var only, I'm at 90mg daily. Been on for about 4 weeks. All I notice is a very, very slight pump. And a few of my lifts are up. But then again I just switched to a different routine so it's probably the routine/ more focus on nutrition as well.

My experience with AS has been shit. I've never had any gains where I could say "Wow I feel the steroids."

Looks like your doseages are low and not run long enough.It can take 6 or so weeks for test e to kick in.

Maybe you should research more before next cycle

**V_Vandetta** · 09-22-2006, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior21

Yes I was eating plenty. For my first three runs I was eating in the neighborhood of 5-6000 calories from natural foods (no processed or frozen crap!).
And I go way beyond busting my ass in the gym.

Remember I said "Assuming diet and training are perfect." I anticipated responses like these, and it's cool as long as you don't flame. But it's definately not my diet and training cuz they are perfect. And the gear has all been real. I'm 110% sure.

Another note, right now my brother is running the Anavar with me. Our calories are lower now. But he's responding so good. He is getting awesome pumps and strength. I'm using the exact same stuff as him. We both went 50/50 on the order. And I'm using 90mg/daily while he's only at 60mg daily. I'm thinking of bumping it to 120mg/daily... but I read there is no point in going past 80mg. I'm already 10mg past 80.

I'd appreciate any insight.

bro with 5-6000 cals a day you should grow with out AAS..... but I have never come across someone with this problem( well bunk gear).... as far as training what's training look like becasue somthing seems a little off .. with that many cals a day but never know

**Bigmax** · 09-22-2006, 04:25 PM

Hey bro,lets hear your diet on the 5-6,000 calorie natural foods.

**neverenuff21** · 09-22-2006, 04:25 PM

5-6000 cals?

**PROTEINSHAKE** · 09-22-2006, 04:26 PM

8 week cycles may be your problem...why only 8 weekers?

**powerliftmike** · 09-22-2006, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by getnjakked

8 week cycles may be your problem...why only 8 weekers?

I love 8 week cycles. my favorite. but youre right, the cycles he is running for 8 weeks arent designed for 8 wks.

**guest589745** · 09-22-2006, 05:36 PM

I know I persoanlly dont respond as well as I was led to expect by reading about others expereinces.

It is very very hard and frustrating when trying to figure out what the hell is going on and why, or what you should do to change it to get the results you want. You have to be completely honest with yourself and be certain that you are doing everything at 100% or you will always be questioning things.

You have to eat a lot and the right things, you have to train in a manner that best suits your goals and what you KNOW works for you.

ALl in all, if you are still not getting desired results, it can only be these IMO:

1. Diet and/or training isnt as great as you think it is
2. Bunk/underdosed gear
3. You lack the genetic potential to grow to your desired size (For whatever reason)

I feel your pain.....

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 07:00 PM

Okay first off I gave reps to everyone who has been kind enough to reply, especially you Skullsmasher. I remember we spent the whole last Sunday with you going back and forth.
Anyways I only ran those cycles 8 weeks because I did not see anything. If I would have seen results, I would have obviously been encouraged to go longer. Say 12 weeks.
Someone posted that with 5-6000 cals I should have gained even without gear, and I did bro. Maybe you missed that part, were only human. My problem is that any gains I get were strictly from my hard work and diet. I never had any gains that were out of the norm. It's as if the hormones that I inject or took orally weren't even in my system.
I will outline my diet for you when I ran my Test Cycles, and the Fina cycle as well;
An average day might look like this 5000 calories 35% pro/ 35% carb/ 30% fat
440g pro, 440g carb, 166g fat

5 meals consisting of 80g pro, 80g carb, 33g fat
PWO Shake I took 50g Dextrose,40g whey, 4g creatine and a multimvitamin for luck
Before Bed I had 3 servings of cottage cheese and a table spoon of olive oil.

Carb Sources: Pizza(homemade), Oats, Brown Rice, Sweet Potatoe, Boniato, White Rice, Black Beans, Pasta
Pro Sources: Tuna, Lean Beef, Chicken, Turkey, Cottage Cheese, Liquid Egg whites
Fat Sources: Pizza, Almonds, Cashews, Olive Oil, Canola Oil, Avocado

I eat basically the best foods, closest to natural as possible.

Back in the day I used to train with Bill Starr's 5x5. Now I'm more into the Chad Wtaerbury's High Frequency System.

Anyways I think my diet and training are good. The gear was definately real, I mean the Anavar I am using now my brother is responding great on only
60mg ED while I'm taking 90mg ED. The Fina I made on my own very meticulously with Animal's kit. The Test was ICN Galenika. The Deca was in a mix of Rocket Fuel, from a well trusted source. Everything is in order yet I'm not getting any 'help'.

**guest589745** · 09-22-2006, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior21

Okay first off I gave reps to everyone who has been kind enough to reply, especially you Skullsmasher. I remember we spent the whole last Sunday with you going back and forth.

Everything is in order yet I'm not getting any 'help'.

What I listed above is really all I can imagine anyone can do. Not sure if anyone can come in here and say "No wait man, its this and that" and solve your problem, as wonderful as that would be.

I know my gear was real too because of bloodwork, acne and mild gains. I know how you feel.

What I am going to do is use tren . If I cant grow off of such a compound as that, let alone with a stack of other steroids , then I will possibly train naturally from thereafter, or maybe HGH.

My planned cycle will be:

1-10(12) 400mg masteron enanthate a week
1-8(10) 50-125mg Trenbolone acetate every day, depending on what I can handle
1-12(14) 250-500mg test cyp a week. Havent decided what dose yet
1-4 Dbol possibly or
10-14 50+mg winstrol every day (Injected, maybe twice a day)
-2-12(14) .5mg adex ED or letro
PCT-Nolva, HCG clomid (Have to look into proviron and others possibly)

Diet will be at least 4500 of quality food, cycling carbs.

Training will be every other day virtually the whole time giving each muscle three days rest before hitting it again. I feel this will work for me, at least I hope.

I will also be "priming" my body before I begin by basically cutting right up to when I start and possibly running IGF-1 LR3 til right before the cycle like Bino is doing (I believe).

Thats my take on things. It aint easy but I am trying.....

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 07:22 PM

So I take it that you don't really see ANYTHING from your cycles? I thought you said Deca worked good for you. Yea Tren is some strong stuff, if we can't gain off of that there is not much hope for us

.
I did some PubMed searches on adrogen receptors but I can't find many studies which are relevant. The ones I do find the vocabulary is a little bit beyond me, I've taken a few microbiology courses but damn.
What do you gain off of an average cycle? May I ask your age?

**guest589745** · 09-22-2006, 07:22 PM

Also, how much vitamins are you taking in, specifically B6?

**guest589745** · 09-22-2006, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior21

So I take it that you don't really see ANYTHING from your cycles? I thought you said Deca worked good for you. Yea Tren is some strong stuff, if we can't gain off of that there is not much hope for us

.
I did some PubMed searches on adrogen receptors but I can't find many studies which are relevant. The ones I do find the vocabulary is a little bit beyond me, I've taken a few microbiology courses but damn.
What do you gain off of an average cycle? May I ask your age?

Well, steroids increase the amount of androgen receptors in your body so not responding in that sense is impossible IMO. Also fat cells contain androgen/estrogen receptors as well.

Deca did work well, I gained and kept about 8-10 lbs. Did I expect much more? Yes. I know 10lbs is what peopl eput on in a year but I was expecting more and I think I shouldve gained more.

Im 24. I gained about 2 lbs off test only and deca/dbol /var I gained 12-13 but kept 10 at the most.

***Narkissos*** · 09-22-2006, 07:31 PM

I have read of non-responders.. and minimal responders

They're an anomaly.. as most i've come across simply did not eat enough.. or simply over-trained

That being said.. the manner in which you have presented your case, leaves me doubtful that either of the abovementioned conditions applies to you.

You may be part of the minority: a minimal/non-responder.

What's the solution?

There IS no simple solution

You would have to determine how much the pursuit of size is worth to you.. because personally my major suggestion would be for you to try high doses of 1-3 compound(s)

This is not without risks... that is why i can only half-heartedly suggest it

**guest589745** · 09-22-2006, 07:33 PM

Well put.

**guest589745** · 09-22-2006, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

You would have to determine how much the pursuit of size is worth to you.. because personally my major suggestion would be for you to try high doses of 1-3 compound(s)

If you do choose to sue 3 compounds, a preferable combination where the compounds would compliment each other, would be a 19nor/dht/test and a non AR mediated steroid such as Dbol ro any other oral besides var I think.

***Narkissos*** · 09-22-2006, 07:40 PM

In under-taking my suggestion.. one would need to plan one's cycle for the next 3-5 years minimum.

Each successive cycle (compounds; dosages etc.) plannned according to the preceding cycle's response.

I have mg amounts in mind but i don't feel comfortable posting them

Good luck

Nark

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 07:41 PM

I cannot beleive my luck. On top of not responding to roids I have shitty genes to begin with. And besides that I'm 22 and balding quick.
Yea Skull it sounds like you don't gain all that much either. Ever try mega dosing? I'm completely against it but if it is necessary than I guess you could try it right.
Nark the pursuit of getting big, besides my family, is pretty much everything to me. I eat, sleep, and breath bodybuilding. Yet I really wasn't made for bodybuilding. I put on fat easily, I have a naturally thick waist (large hip bones), I have a hard time gaining muscle.
Nark, can you show me some links or something to these anomalys? I'm having a hard time accepting this I guess.

What do you think would happen If I did megadoses of safe compounds. For example;
Primo 1000mg week
Anavar 120mg ED
TBol 100mg ED

Nark I just repped you for taking time out of your schedule to help.

**guest589745** · 09-22-2006, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior21

I cannot beleive my luck. On top of not responding to roids I have shitty genes to begin with. And besides that I'm 22 and balding quick.
Yea Skull it sounds like you don't gain all that much either. Ever try mega dosing? I'm completely against it but if it is necessary than I guess you could try it right.
Nark the pursuit of getting big, besides my family, is pretty much everything to me. I eat, sleep, and breath bodybuilding. Yet I really wasn't made for bodybuilding. I put on fat easily, I have a naturally thick waist (large hip bones), I have a hard time gaining muscle.
Nark, can you show me some links or something to these anomalys? I'm having a hard time accepting this I guess.

What do you think would happen If I did megadoses of safe compounds. For example;
Primo 1000mg week
Anavar 120mg ED
TBol 100mg ED

Nark I just repped you for taking time out of your schedule to help.

Too risky with compounds that are comonly thought to be "weak" IMO.

Look at this, I agree and will be doing this:

Originally Posted by Rickson

I have heard of people who don't respond to test (although it is rare) but I have never heard of anyone who doesn't respond to any AAS. One more test is to get a fina conversion kit. By the pellets from a vet feed store and make your own. If you don't respond to 75 mg a day of tren running it for 8 weeks with a kit (you made yourself and did not buy premade) then I would say you may be a medical freak. I don't mean that badly but all sorts of genetic abnormalities are out there.

***Narkissos*** · 09-22-2006, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by Skullsmasher

If you do choose to sue 3 compounds, a preferable combination where the compounds would compliment each other, would be a 19nor/dht/test and a non AR mediated steroid such as Dbol ro any other oral besides var I think.

Eventually

The cycles i had in mind (re: 3-5 year plan) are actually the progressive use/addition of compounds

e.g. cycle 1: high dose test + anxillaries
cycle 2: high dose test + relatively high dosed 19-nor

etc

**guest589745** · 09-22-2006, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

Eventually

The cycles i had in mind (re: 3-5 year plan) are actually the progressive use/addition of compounds

e.g. cycle 1: high dose test + anxillaries
cycle 2: high dose test + relatively high dosed 19-nor

etc

I see. That would be a god way of progressing, never thought of it though. I am too impatient as well.

By "High dose" you mean.......?

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 07:53 PM

I did make Fina with a premade kit using tren from pellets from a vet store.
For entertainment purposes Nark, can you post a cycle for my genetically-retarded self?
Damnit this is depressing.

**guest589745** · 09-22-2006, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior21

I did make Fina with a premade kit using tren from pellets from a vet store.
For entertainment purposes Nark, can you post a cycle for my genetically-retarded self?
Damnit this is depressing.

I think you can find a solution, dont get down.

***Narkissos*** · 09-22-2006, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Skullsmasher

I see. That would be a god way of progressing, never thought of it though. I am too impatient as well.

By "High dose" you mean.......?

I didn't want to state a dose.. as noobies who think they're non-responders..when they're only just lazy may read it and try it

What i had in mind was:

cycle 1: test (as the base) 1 gr
cycle 2: based on the reaction or non-reaction of previous cycle; total combined aas total: 2 grams test as base.. 2 19-nors (1 gr test; 600 mg tren ; 400 mg deca ).. or test + dht deriv+ 19-nor (1 gr test; 600 mg tren; 400-600 mg masteron )

etc.

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 08:05 PM

Thanks bro, I just don't want to have to sacrifice my health for it. I mean yea the pursuit to add muscle mass/ cuts is very important. But if I die I don't think I can enjoy the mass and cuts huh.

**V_Vandetta** · 09-22-2006, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior21

Thanks bro, I just don't want to have to sacrifice my health for it. I mean yea the pursuit to add muscle mass/ cuts is very important. But if I die I don't think I can enjoy the mass and cuts huh.

have you ever had blood work done??? there maybe some underlined issue ?

**Kale** · 09-22-2006, 08:10 PM

I am definitly in the non responder catagory. I am going to try Marcus300's idea of a Priming diet for a week before a four week extremly high dose cycle and see if that makes a difference.

**guest589745** · 09-22-2006, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kale

I am definitly in the non responder catagory. I am going to try Marcus300's idea of a Priming diet for a week before a four week extremly high dose cycle and see if that makes a difference.

Me too.

**Kale** · 09-22-2006, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Skullsmasher

Me too.

When are you thinking of starting ?

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 08:15 PM

How important is age into the equation. My brother is 2 years older than I and just recently started responding to Anavar . The AS we did together back in the day didn't give either one of us gains. We left roids alone for a while, then he got on Superdrol. He started responding to Superdrol, so I told him lets get our hands on some Anavar. Now he responds great. (To Anavar anyway)
Maybe my body is not ready yet? This is weird though because I know of some 17-18 year olds who respond to juice well.

**V_Vandetta** · 09-22-2006, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior21

How important is age into the equation. My brother is 2 years older than I and just recently started responding to Anavar . The AS we did together back in the day didn't give either one of us gains. We left roids alone for a while, then he got on Superdrol. He started responding to Superdrol, so I told him lets get our hands on some Anavar. Now he responds great. (To Anavar anyway)
Maybe my body is not ready yet? This is weird though because I know of some 17-18 year olds who respond to juice well.

how old were you when you started you first cycle?

**Kale** · 09-22-2006, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior21

How important is age into the equation. My brother is 2 years older than I and just recently started responding to Anavar . The AS we did together back in the day didn't give either one of us gains. We left roids alone for a while, then he got on Superdrol. He started responding to Superdrol, so I told him lets get our hands on some Anavar. Now he responds great. (To Anavar anyway)
Maybe my body is not ready yet? This is weird though because I know of some 17-18 year olds who respond to juice well.

How old are you ?

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 08:18 PM

Bloodwork, well yea. Not on cycle though. I did get bloodwork done about 2 months ago. It's recent. I have the sheets upstairs. What am I looking for? My free test % is 1.82 if that means anything. Seems low to me. My free test is 134ng/dl.

**Warrior21** · 09-22-2006, 08:20 PM

22 now. I did the other cycles when I was younger, alot younger. Please don't flame. I know I fked up.

**smiler** · 09-22-2006, 08:21 PM

i don't respond to anything as well as most....asprin, antibiotics, ect..ect..several docs i've had cant believe a "z" pack didn't cure my illness. now i get 1 of those plus 2 shots in the arse, plus, plus. same with everything for me. dentist can't beilieve i'm still screaming after soo much novacain. same goes for me with aas. my doses are very big compared to most. it sucks, costs more..more jabs..on and on. i started way back with 400 mg test cyp (script) ew for a long time. way above that now