saw palmetto..........

[iron4life79]

i need some guidance and opinions in regard to how effective this herb is on the prostate.

with my current cycle, i believe i'm getting some slight swelling, and wondered if this was an effective deterrent. i'd also like input on dosages on an ed basis.

all thoughts are appreciated...........


peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

Hey bro, I know it's been proven to be effective but that's all I can offer. I can't even recall now if it's site-specific or just lowers DHT generally.

I just started on prop (my second cycle) and I'm taking a few of the GNC caps ed, so I've got the same Q as to dosages.

If I find anything I'll post it here.

[johnsomebody]

All I've got in my files is from an article in the NYT a few months ago.

Some tidbits: "been used in Europe to relieve the symptoms of enlarged prostates for decades. Doctors there routinely prescribe it."

"No one knows for sure how saw palmetto works, if it does." ( I could swear I've read it's been proven effective!)

In the US "...the lack of standardization in manufacturing and labeling of supplements [is] a problem for consumers."

The NIH uses a product by an Italian company called Indena, because it's among the purest available. (There's an independent health food store near me that sells it -the company lists retailers online.)

[iron4life79]

js,
thanks bro...........as usual youve helped a great deal. i'm researching it too, so maybe we can compare some notes here in few days.
thanks again........

peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

No problem bro! Glad to be able to help out.

You probably already know that zinc, selenium (in very small amounts) and lycopene (most anything involving cooked tomaotoes has it -http://www.lycopene.org) are all good for prostate health though don't deal with enlargement directly, at least as far as they know now. I'm guzzlin' V8!

[iron4life79]

well,
i decided to go ahead and give this a try.......i bought the 450mg caps, and i'm running 1800mg ed. 900mg in the am, and 900mg in the pm.
think this is overkill, or still too low?

peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

Personally, I have no idea but I've never heard of any talk of toxicity so I can't imagine it would be a problem. I've been taking 4-6 160mgs/day.

For what it's worth I found an online supplier, http://www.carotec.com/price.html that sells the Indena product I mentioned before, which has the brand name Sabalselect.

[iron4life79]

JS,
is this a reliable supplier? ive never heard of them, but that dosent mean anything. maybe what i'm using has less active ingredient? its made by REXALL/SUNDOWN.

peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

Well, like it said in the NYT article "...the lack of standardization in manufacturing and labeling of supplements [is] a problem for consumers."
What that means is the dose strength is entirely up to the manufacturer since there's no requirement of standardization. I'm not even sure if they're arrived at just what the effective chemicals in saw palmetto are.
I'd say just take a bunch!

I have no idea about that supplier -they're the only online site I could find that carried Sabalselect, which the NIH recognizes as effective enough to use for testing. I'm sure there are others that must be good. I started out with GNC myself and just got some Nature-Made but I plan to order from that site eventually if I can't find Sabalselect locally.

[956Vette]

Have you thought about taking finasteride for your prostate IFL?

[iron4life79]

Have you thought about taking finasteride for your prostate IFL?


actually bro,
i have. i think i'm going to go to the urologist, and i'm sure he'll have me do the ole bend over thing.........just to make sure nothings up.
i will continue with the saw until then, but if he sees anything amiss, maybe he'll hook me up.
really, the only reason for my concern is that ive never had this sort of problem before, so i'm going to err on the side of caution.

peace I4L

[jjc1431]

i need some guidance and opinions in regard to how effective this herb is on the prostate.

with my current cycle, i believe i'm getting some slight swelling, and wondered if this was an effective deterrent. i'd also like input on dosages on an ed basis.

all thoughts are appreciated...........


peace I4Lsaw palmetto will neutralize any form of test your using.test has dhb which is not good for prostrate and saw has herbs to neutralize it or at best you are not gettig full strength from your cycle

[johnsomebody]

saw palmetto will neutralize any form of test your using.test has dhb which is not good for prostrate and saw has herbs to neutralize it or at best you are not gettig full strength from your cycle

Hello? Can you back that up??
Also test doesn't "have" dhb, it produces DHT as a bi-product, which is dihydrotestosterone. DHT is generally considered a culprit in prostate enlargement, if I understand correctly, and SP is supposed to either lower it or prevent its attachment to receptors on the prostate. I'm not sure it's been established yet which one it is. SP is commonly prescribed in Europe for prostate enlargement, as stated above.
I've often heard DHT decribed as the "bad" testosterone for this reason. But I've never heard of SP lowering testosterone itself.
Please post references if you have any!

[iron4life79]

Hello? Can you back that up??
Also test doesn't "have" dhb, it produces DHT as a bi-product, which is dihydrotestosterone. DHT is generally considered a culprit in prostate enlargement, if I understand correctly, and SP is supposed to either lower it or prevent its attachment to receptors on the prostate. I'm not sure it's been established yet which one it is. SP is commonly prescribed in Europe for prostate enlargement, as stated above.
I've often heard DHT decribed as the "bad" testosterone for this reason. But I've never heard of SP lowering testosterone itself.
Please post references if you have any!


js,
thanks bro, you beat me to it. ive seen numerous posts debating whether saw will affect your cycle...........the majority of the conclusions(most backed up by personal experience) are that it dosent negatively affect your cycle at all.

that being said, i'd love to see some hard data that confirms this either way....

peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

Here's the best webpage I've found about the subject so far...

http://www.usp.org/dietarySupplements/sawpalmetto.html

"Another study in BPH patients receiving 160 mg of a saw palmetto extract twice a day for 30 days reported no change in plasma concentrations of testosterone, follicle-stimulating hormone, or luteinizing hormone 29. The authors concluded that saw palmetto does not act via systemic changes of hormone levels."

[Ironweb]

I work with a guy who uses it because he has a prostate problem. His doctor told him to use it to reduce the possiblity of enlargement.

[proskier]

I4L, here is another view from a controversial BB'er. Seems to be a lack of in depth, hard data on this subject. FWIW

Saw Palmetto:
This substance may be one of the most highly supplemented herbs, and with good reason
-- it does what it's supposed to do in that it reduces the symptoms of benign prostate
hypertrophy. Saw Palmetto works and I've used it and recommended it. The way in
which it works, however, may be deleterious to those who need it the most. Confused?
Stick with me a moment.
Saw Palmetto works by blocking the enzyme 5-alpha reductase, which is what allows for
the production of DHT (Dyhydrotestosterone). That's good, right? We've been hearing for
years how DHT is the bad testosterone and the culprit for everything from prostate
enlargement to baldness. Well, not only may that not be the case, but it looks like
everyone has been barking up the wrong tree. It's true, that reducing DHT will also
reduce inflammation of the prostate, not caused by an infection (prostatitis). But in doing
so there are far worse repercussions. DHT is more anabolic in nature than once believed,
but maybe more importantly is the fact that DHT is essential to achieving an erection!
The majority of consumers of Saw Palmetto have been older men -- those who are most
prone to prostate problems. But it's that very demographic who need what Saw Palmetto
takes away -- DHT - since erectile dysfunction is more prevalent among older men. So in
other words, using Saw Palmetto to cure prostate enlargement is like using decapitation
to cure a headache. It helps one problem but causes a bigger one.
There's something that has never been answered to my satisfaction: If testosterone and
DHT are the cause of all that's bad about being male, i.e., hair loss and prostate
enlargement, it would then be the bane of young men, since that's when levels are at their
highest. So why do older men with lowered testosterone and DHT develop baldness and
prostate hypertrophy? I've discussed this with several authorities in the field and the
usually reply is; "Good question."
I don't claim to have all the answers, but it shows that there's alot about this subject even
the medical world doesn't yet understand. In the meantime, I'd recommend staying away
from Saw Palmetto unless you experience acute symptoms of prostatitis or BPH. (Pain,
swolleness, scant and burning urination) It should not be taken on a regular basis.

[iron4life79]

definitely food for thought........

that being said, ive been on it for a little over 2 weeks now, and it definitely seems to be helping. i'm not having any erectile trouble, but that could be because i'm on 1000mg of test.......hehe.
i think i'll stay on until the cycle ends, and through my pct, and then possibly come off. if symptoms return, a visit to the doc will be in order.

nice post bro........any chance you know who wrote it?

peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

I think the jury is still out on how SP acts. The thread I posted above states...

A 7-day study in which testosterone-stimulated, castrated rats were given an n-hexane extract of Serenoa repens [i.e.Saw Palmetto] at doses of 180 or 1800 mg per day found no 5a-reductase inhibition nor decrease in serum DHT 25. A similar 7-day study in healthy male volunteers given 160 mg twice daily found similar results 26

This contradicted an earlier study that may have used too high a dose and was restricted to rats.

[proskier]

I4L, the author of that statement is Nelsen Montana. His views tend to go against the grain so to speak. But, I have found much of what he preaches to be of value. He has done a fairly adequate job of sorting thru the BS with AAS and bodybuilding. I have been training with and without AAS for a long time and his theories, especially on short cycles, have worked for me.

[iron4life79]

proskier,
ive read some of his stuff bro, but i missed that one.......obviously.

youre right, he is controversial, but some of his stuff does seem to make sense. and for what its worth, i'm all for anyone who can cut through the crap and give definitive answers, and observations.

js,
this is all i can say bro......this stuff seems to be working. i'm not going to come off of it if its effective. i am going to go see the doc though just to be safe, and i'll mention this to him when i see him. while his opinion is just one of many, at least its one more......you know?

i want to thank you for the stuff you both posted. it helped me a great deal, and while conflicting, it really makes you think. of course, i'll always take more if anyone can find it......

peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

Hey, I'm glad to help out.

The bad thing about SP is that since no company has a patent on it, no one's had any incentive to spend the money to determine if it really works and how it works.

Fortunately the NIH is finally trying to resolve the issue now. Meantime all we can do is look at the research, see how it works on us, and make our own conclusions -which is what we seem to have to do with most AS stuff anyway!

[iron4life79]

Meantime all we can do is look at the research, see how it works on us, and make our own conclusions -which is what we seem to have to do with most AS stuff anyway!


you hit the nail on the head there bro..........and like i stated above, it seems to be working. as each day passes, i feel a little better.
i would like to try that brand you mentioned above though. where can i get that stuff again? you probably posted it, but i missed it.

peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

http://www.carotec.com/price.html

Scroll down to Saw Palmetto.

I've read it can take up to 30 days to make a diff on BPH.

[iron4life79]

actually,
the stuff i'm using now says 4 weeks right on the bottle. maybe since i'm on cycle i'm more receptive to it?
all i know is, i feel a lot better than i did 2+ weeks ago..........

thanks for the hookup again bro.........

peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

Hey bro, here's some good info from Ichabod, who I believe may be the most knowledgeble bro at AR when it comes to stuff like this...

"For the saw palmetto, from the sources I have, the reported doses are 160mg twice daily, but standardized to contain at least 80-90% fatty acids and sterols per dose. so depending on the brand you are using, this could differ. Just be sure you are getting the required FAs and sterol dose (80-90%). the mg really means nothing as it can vary greatly in the actual active constituent (fatty acids and sterols). As far as I know, taking too much has not been a problem.

We know the excess formation of DHT is believed to stimulate enlargement in the prostate. Estrogen actually inhibits the elimination of DHT. So more estrogen could mean more DHT. (Do you think that by not reducing estrogen levels to an extent that we could notice a change in libido?) But not everyone is prone to this and it varies individually. but saw palmetto effects DHT by 1) it may inhibit production, 2) inhibit receptor binding, and 3) accelerate metabolism of DHT. SP is also reported to have some antiestrogenic effects which mediate some of the improvement in symptoms, because E seems to inhibit DHT elimination.

We are now thinking that test is not the only culprit to blame in prostate disorders. SP decreases prostate size, but does not alter PSA levels. (this was taken from lexi-comp drugs, which is my all time favorite drug reference). So I don't necessarily think you need to take more than the recommended amount, but I don't think it could hurt unless you are experiencing sides: (and it may be hard to distinguish some of these from AAS sides) GI distress such as diarrhea, vomiting, nausea and constipation. also common is headache, mild sexual dysfunction (because we do need DHT and some estrogen to function normally). So you may want to cut back if you are noticing any of these effects (libido?).

I don't know if taking too much SP could cause you to have a decrease in libido because since it essentially decreases DHT, this could theoretically be a factor. We do need DHT to maintain a functional libido. But I do think it is a great drug to take while on cycle or not, just for prophylactic effects."

[iron4life79]

JS,
next time you speak to ichabod, tell him i said thank you..........that was a great read.

peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

Will do. That dude is the walking talking Big Blue of AS related info and a great guy besides.

[ichabodcrane]

Thanks guys. I am just a humble, modest bro willing to help whenever I can. I by no means know everything, but I still love to share what I do know and come across. I will do some lit searches and see what I can come up with, but be patient cuz this usually takes time. Good luck I4L, and well, you know how I feel about you JS :)

[956Vette]

ichabod has deserved veteran status for a looooonng time :)
Always enjoy reading your posts bro. Gotta admit, when i first started posting, i ran a search of your posts, and learned a LOT! :thumbsup: for giving so much knowledge back to the community.

[iron4life79]

ichabod has deserved veteran status for a looooonng time :)
Always enjoy reading your posts bro. Gotta admit, when i first started posting, i ran a search of your posts, and learned a LOT! :thumbsup: for giving so much knowledge back to the community.



WELL,
i'll just have to see what we can do about that.......... i'll run it by a few fellow mods, and see what happens.

peace I4L

[johnsomebody]

WELL,
i'll just have to see what we can do about that.......... i'll run it by a few fellow mods, and see what happens.

peace I4L

Sorry to get off the SP subject but I've been around a while and in my humble opinion NOBODY I've seen on any board deserves respect for his AS knowledge more than ICB. Absolutely 100% spot on and 0% BS. Anybody who scans his posts should be able to see that. Vet status would help give this bro the respect he deserves.

He's not a PharmaD major for nothing.

[iron4life79]

well,
i head to the urologist tomorrow.........just to be on the safe side. i will mention the s.p. and see what he says.

thanks again guys, for everything.

peace I4L

[ichabodcrane]

Wow! Thanks guys (especially you JS)! Let us know how things go at the U, I4L!

[Kato]

ichabod has deserved veteran status for a looooonng time :)
Always enjoy reading your posts bro. Gotta admit, when i first started posting, i ran a search of your posts, and learned a LOT! :thumbsup: for giving so much knowledge back to the community.


i 100% agree and i also think IC is one of the smartest bros on the board!

[iron4life79]

well,
i went to the uro doctor, and all is fine. he said there is no swelling or any abnormality that he can tell. he also did a urine check, and everything was fine there as well.
i told him about the s.p. and he said it was one of the best things i could have done for my urinary health. he actually starts patients with minor prostate problems on it before he goes to the heavy hitters, such as proscar. he also said it was his opinion that older fellas(like myself) seem to get more from s.p than younger patients.
this is just common sense though i guess..........

peace I4L

[956Vette]

Good news I4L :)

and that was interesting to hear about your docs view on sp

[johnsomebody]

Hey I4L, how is that SP working for you -still okay?

I'm on week 9 of my Prop/Var cycle and I'm disappointed at my lack of gains (up 12lbs.) even though I upped the Prop to 100ed week 5. I'm beginning to wonder if the SP isn't interfering with gains after all.

Now that I look at the studies more closely I see that while SP didn't interfere with test levels, there is more than one study showing it interferes with test binding at the androgen receptor, which is exactly what jjc1431 was saying above (and I so ruthlessly questioned!)

The lef.org link I posted above just mirrors a link by USPC...
http://www.usp.org/dietarySupplements/sawpalmetto.html

It mentions a couple of past studies showing SP not only inhibits binding of DHT at androgen receptors but of testosterone as well...
"Experiments using human tissue samples (i.e., abdominal wall skin, myometrium, prepuce, and vaginal skin) found that n-hexane extract of Serenoa repens inhibited dihydrotestosterone and testosterone binding by approximately 40% 30. The authors of an experiment to study the effects of a liposterolic extract of saw palmetto (LESP) on two prostatic cancer cell lines differing in androgen responsiveness also concluded that their findings supported anti-androgenic activity of the extract. Variable concentrations (£ 10 mg/mL to ³ 25 mg/mL) of an n-hexanepreparation antagonized androgen-stimulated cell growth in a concentration-dependent manner.... "

I'm gonna lay off the stuff and see if I notice a diff, though I've only got a couple weeks left. Now I'm wondering if it wasn't a mistake to use it when I didn't really need it, I'm just using it as a preventive.

[Swellin]

Guys, I hate that I stumbled onto this thread so late...I sure could have used the info a couple of months ago.
However, this has been an excellent thread about SP! Lots of knowledgeable bros putting up good info!
Move this to the Ed threads.

Oh yeah, JS told me to take a look at some of IC's posts...about 6 months ago. I did...and they have been a huge help. Whether or not he has the Vet title...his posts command respect. Those of us who have read many of them already view him as a Vet.

Again...excellent thread guys!

[johnsomebody]

Okay AR Mods, there's another vote for making Ichabodcrane a Vet! You guys paying attention?

[johnsomebody]

Here's an interesting point-counterpoint discussion at ************...
http://www.************.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=24124&perpage=25&highlight=palmetto&pagenumber=1

The best stuff is on page two where someone actually quotes from real studies rather than just expressing opinion without backing it up (which happens all the time-makes me crazy).

" In vivo studies have shown that saw palmetto decreases dihydrotestosterone levels and raises testosterone levels,82 has antiestrogenic activity,83 and increases apoptosis and reduces cell proliferation84 in prostatic tissue from patients with benign prostatic hyperplasia..."

I still don't know if it interferes with binding at the androgen receptors, durnit.

[iron4life79]

js,
i'm still on the s.p. and its still seems to be helping immensely.
i'm on the same dosage(1800mg ed). as for inhibiting gains, i just dont see it. but ive said this a million times.....we're all different, and some will react differently to this stuff i'm sure.
i have 4 weeks left on my cycle, and i will more than likely continue the s.p. through my pct. then i'll come off, and we'll see what happens next.

a few real good posts have been added to this thread. if anyone has anything else to add, feel free to do so.

peace I4L

[ichabodcrane]

It is good to see you guys sorting through the literature and trying to evaluate it professionally. This is often the hardest part about literature reviews. JS posted an excellent monograph on SP. I read the study where SP reportedly decreased T binding. I think there are a few things to keep in mind when reading this. The most important is that the study which shows a decrease in T binding is done in vitro, or basically in an artificial environment outside the living organism. IN VITRO studies are isolated and controlled, and it is often very difficult to apply the results to those that would happen inside the human body or in vivo. IN VITRO studies like this do not account for the multiple feedback mechanisms, or cascading events that happen when we have an intact system such as that inside our bodies. They are however, a good starting point. Also, the study reported these in vitro tests were done in specific tissues (abdominal skin wall, myometrium, prepuce and vaginal skin). There is no mention of muscle tissue etc. So while this sounds very disturbing, it may or may not be the actual case. This brings us to next important part of this ordeal (IMO). This is the studies that were done in vivo human. Now we may be getting a better picture of what might really be happening. Here it is stated that SP showed a statistically significant decrease in DHT and an INCREASE in T. Important to note though, is that this is also in the prostate region, and there is no mention of other tissues such as muscle etc. Also, importatnly is the mention of no increase in plasma levels of T, LH and FSH. So from these studies we might conclude that SP does not negatively effect hormonal balance. I can't say that SP does not effect T negatively, but I still haven't read any convincing studies. You already pointed this out JS, I just think you got caught up in the shuffle. Excellent reporting I might add amigo. Of course more studies need to be done to provide a definative answer, but I think we are getting there. And as I4L stated, everybody is different. So what is so for one person, may not be for the next. JS, I think if you want to go off the SP for these remaining weeks, you should try it. This will at least give you some peace of mind. It isn't going to hurt you to not take the SP. Proskier's article also brought some good arguments about DHT and libido. We know we need precise amounts of T, DHT, and E (among other hormones) for a funcitonal libido. It doesen't surprise me that someone might report a decrease in libido while taking SP. Anytime you take a drug/supplement that interferes with hormonal balance to any extent, you run the risk of ill reported side effects in regards to libido. Even people who use T alone will report a decrease in libido. As for why teenagers don't seem to be afflicted by the nasty sides of fluctuating hormones such as T and subsequently DHT (balding and prostate enlargement): We must look at the overall hormonal balance and enzymatic conversion processes involved. It is not the serum levels of DHT that matter, but the local conversion of T to DHT in the prostate and scalp that matter. So it is the local excess of DHT that is the problem. Susceptible individuals seem to have more of the 5-alpha reductase enzyme which converts T to DHT. It is interesting to note that teenagers and young men, with their high T levels, tend to have very full heads of hair, but not so much facial and/or body hair. On the other hand it is not too uncommon to see massive body/facial hair on a person who may be severely balding. We must look at the relative balance of all hormones and not just T or DHT. Estrogens, for example, promote the growth of scalp hair while they inhibit the growth of hair in other places of the body. DHT seems to promote the growth of body/facial hair, but appears to inhibit the growth of scalp hair. We know that natural T levels begin to decline somewhere around mid-to late twenties. Is this not where we also begin to notice balding in those who are susceptible? As we age, our bodies may produce more DHT as a compensation for lowering serum androgens. Again, it seems that serum DHT is quite different from peripheral DHT, and the two may be inversely related. Another factor could be that the older male has had more "time" so to speak, being exposed to DHT and could therefore be more affected by its actions. There are so many factors involved in prostate enlargement and balding. It is unfair to say it is only due to increased DHT. We must look at ALL hormones, and consider their what happens to their balance as we age in order to gain insight into these problems which inflict us all. Sorry to ramble on. You guys have started a very interesting post with both excellent scientific reference as well as real life experience. I hope this one stays alive for a long time. Good luck to both JS and I4L. Keep us posted on any new findings.

[Swellin]

Most of what IC posted had occurred to me, but some of it was imensely insightful......

It is interesting to note that teenagers and young men, with their high T levels, tend to have very full heads of hair, but not so much facial and/or body hair. On the other hand it is not too uncommon to see massive body/facial hair on a person who may be severely balding. We must look at the relative balance of all hormones and not just T or DHT.
Little snipits like this really make the difference.

Pretty interesting.

[johnsomebody]

Wow, thanks for the input Icahbod!!!

Seems like the possibility still exists based on that in vitro study that while SP lowers DHT and increases test levels it may also bind to androgen receptors overall other than just the prostate? Or am I missing something?

As for me I laid off the stuff for a few days but I'm so paranoid about my prostate it felt like the thing was crying out in pain from a DHT attack so I resumed taking it. Aaaahh, relief.

[johnsomebody]

Even people who use T alone will report a decrease in libido.

This is a real interesting fact that a lot of people at AR don't know. It seems to be the case with me as well.

[hybrid]

Great discussion on this topic. I've learned alot. Thanks. One thing that I was told by a doc once sticks in my mind. He said that every male, if they live long enough will develop prostate cancer. Kind of all-inclusive, I know. But the point that I got from it was to be careful when it comes to protecting the prostate. I would rather sacrifice some gains rather than sacrifice the health of the prostate.

[johnsomebody]

Good point!! I've heard the same thing.

[iron4life79]

this is the way i like to see things addressed in this particular forum.

i know way more about s.p. now than i ever thought i would need or want to. while questions still arise as to efficacy, etc, i like the way this was discussed, and most questions at least somewhat answered.
all of you are to be commended for the time and effort you put into this thread, and i appreciate all youve done, for me and others who read it.

btw- ich, i havent forgotten you brother. be patient, ok?

peace I4L

[ichabodcrane]

JS, I think while the possibility does exist, it still reamins to be proven. I still feel the in-vivo test to be of more importance. The fact there was no change in plasma hormonal levels for the in-vivo tests does deserve some credibility. From what most people seem to be stating, they are not noticing a hinderance on gains. So even if SP does bind the AR receptor, it does not seem to be very significant. But we still need more tests to realize the full extent of this ordeal.

I notice a huge difference in the quality of posts/replies compared to the general AAS forum. Does maturity mean anything :)
Anyways, thanks for everything guys, and the best of luck to all, IC

[johnsomebody]

I notice a huge difference in the quality of posts/replies compared to the general AAS forum. Does maturity mean anything :)

Yup, this is where the grownups hang out. :)

[Dowstrategy]

I visited my uroligist today. Anyone have a clue how to get ky stains off a shirt tail LOL. Anyway I asked him about SP and he said there is good evidence that Saw Palmetto is effective in helping with prostate swelling. The evidence is anctedotal and his experience was that about 40% of the people had some improvement. As to brands he said to look for the words standardized on the label and avoid any that was whole plant chopped up and look for extract. He recommended 450 to 900 a day

[johnsomebody]

Great info! Thanks bro.

[over40mule]

I began using 1000mg of saw palmetto a year ago (consistantly). Prior to incorporating saw palmetto, I also had mild incontinence. Some claim saw palmetto diminishes HRT results but I have to totally disagree.

41 yrs young and on gear

PSA 2003 = 2.21
PSA June 2004 = 1.5 (1 yr of saw palmetto) this was taken during a high androgen cycle but no aromatizing compounds like testosterone were used. Just (Deca, winstrol, Halotestin) .

[johnsomebody]

That's excellent info -especially posting your PSA numbers declining. Thanks for posting!

[SLOW AND EASY]

Have you looked into Beta-Sitosterol I understand it is a lot better than SP for BHP.
Do a google search and check it out. It is made from the berries of the SP.

Peace