do you guys beleive that there is life after death???

[edraven29]

do you guys beleive that there is life after death???

i beleive in god but seems like the older you get you ask these questions on and on and no proof or answer to all of this.

[Pete235]

Great question bro...honestly...I don't know. I wou;d like to believe there is a god and heaven but sometimes I find it hard to bend my mind around the idea. I was raised as Roman Catholic (lots of Irish in my blood) but at present don't really follow any organized religion. I don't see how giving your personal time to worship at a church will better your chances of getting into heaven. The bible is a record of ancient mans assement of certain events that have beens passed down through countless generations and mnay translations...isn't it realistic that somethings were lost over time? I don't know, I'm just asking. I mean no disrespect to those who have a strong faith this is just the way I feel. It is my belief that, if there is a God and Heaven, our souls will be welcomed based of who we are, what we did and how we lived our lives...not on how many hours we worshipped and how many commadments we followed. Lets face it, some of the strongest proponents of religion routinly break commandments. I also feel that religion discriminates in some ways, this leads to biggotry. Sorry to ramble.
Pete

[edraven29]

i am also a catholic and do beleive in god, but have not set foot in a church since i was 7 years old.

I do live a good life, i respect my girlfriend, and family and try to be good with all people to help them has much has i can.

I to beleve that if you respected others their will be a good place in heaven.

I am really chocked with what happened in NY becose the ones that did this are among the strongest beleivers in god on the planet, what made them think that god would approve of such a disaster???

This is behond me.

[r6guy]

I was raised as Roman Catholic also and I don't attend church frequently, but did you guys see the National Prayer Service? I thought it was pretty inspiring. G.W. Bush had a pretty good speech too.

"There are no atheists in foxholes."

[cosmokramer]

I don't think just going to church will save you. And no you do not get into heaven just by going to church. Whoever believes their heart is not in the right place when they go. Most go to church to worship but they also go to learn. You can basically worship anywhere. Also I think a lot of people believe in God as something to hold on to in a time of need. It helps a lot knowing that you got someone on your side at all times especially in a world so unforgiving, as we all have seen in the recient terrorist attacks. Thats why we all tell peaple that we are praying for them when they are going through tough times. It makes them feel better when they know someone is thinking about them and wishing the best for them. I do believe in God and I also believe that everthing happens for a reason. I am by no means saying that this attack was justified, but I believe that something good will come out of this. Like goin affgana whatchamacallit and kicking some Lauden ass!:D

Cosmo

[Tobey]

Dear Pete and Edraven,
You are right about some things in your post and misinformed about others. I am sure that there are many who go to church to put on a show for their peers, however, most of the christians that I know go to church to learn and to ask for forgiveness. No christians are not perfect, we never claimed to be , we're just forgiven. We are forgiven because we belive in Jesus Christ, the son of God who was crucified died and bury. He was raise on the third day and he sits on his throne on the right hand side of God. Many religions belive in the same God, however doult Jesus's authencity as God's beloved son. Even the demons of hell believe in God but did they ever follow his commanments? Christians are givin commandments not just to live by but to benifit from as well. Yes God knows that we are going to come short of the task many times in our lives. It is in our nature as human beings to sin beause we are born into sin. That is why God sent Jesus, so he could bear our sins for us, but we can only recieve this gift if we belive in Jesus. Historians have proven that Jesus did walk the earth. Knowing this you have to belive 1 of 3 differnet possibilites. Either Jesus was a liar, or he was completely insane OR he was who he said he was, God's son. Christianity can not be proven. God never intended for it to be. For there to be proof would bring people to him out of fear not love and that was not God's intention. I to have trouble seeing how God could let such a terrible thing happen. But you must remember that Satan roams this earth as well and he is very powerful. His power lies in the deception that he can breed amongest men. Deception that may even lead one to fly a plane into a building of innocent people for no other reason than to kill. I still do not understan why thee peolpe hate Americans so much. Maybe it is a cultural thing I don't know but I know that Satan has his hand in there somewhere. All I can do is trust that somehow, in God's great infinite wisedom that there is a plan that may bring some goodness and closeur to such a horrible event. I pray that those who have beem directely effected may oneday find peace.
Tobey

[CYCLEON]

I must say very eloquently put Tobey. On the whole, I share these beliefs as well - I wish I had the time to add to your post but will say for those wondering how a good God can allow great evil like this to happen. It is all based on the principle of "free will". Because of this, we are able to chose to do whatever we wish, even harm others. God permits this "godlike" quality else we would be robots and incapable of having a relationship with Him. It is also this quality that allows God to righteously judge each person for his/her own actions, since ultimately every action is based on your decision to do so. For this reason also, I would tremble ot be one of the terrorists now standing before God to give account - for them, all that awaits for all eternity is the yawning chasm of hell

[hard_lady]

I absolutely believe there is life after death,and that it is a beautiful place.I am a nurse,and I have lost count of the number of people I have been with when they died.I have also been with a number of patients who we resuscitated,and the stories they tell are all the same..."a beautiful place"..."saw all my loved ones"..."why did you take me away from such beauty?"...I have actually had patients get mad because we "saved" them.I can also tell you,when I have been with the ones who died,the serenity they show when they die leads me to believe that there are wonderful,comforting things that wait ahead for them...even in the throes of severe pain,CPR,after severe Trauma(I am an ICU nurse in a large hospital)...so even though the last waking moments for these victims may have been terrible...the dying part wasn't(except for the bastards that did this-there is no beautiful place for them)

[Pete235]

Tobey,

I know you are aware that my post was not meant to inflame or stir things up. I was merely stating my personal beliefs. I respect your faith and I respect what you believe. You are a valued member of this board, you are very articulate and intelligent and I truly understand and appreciate your standpoint. Your points are valid your faith is evident. I hope I didn't offend you my friend.

You may be right about Satan. Maybe he is responsible. Personally, I beleive that most humans are good but there are people who are bad....truly bad. The human brain is not even close to being fully understood. I think it is too easy to blame the many evil, vile unspeakable acts perpetrated by humans on a higher (lower) power. I believe there is a scientific explanation, but we are still very far from understanding why some people do what they do.

I guess I find it most difficult to believe in the old testament. To me, personally, the stories of Noah and Moses sound more like myths (Ala Odin, Zuess). I am a firm believer in Darwins theory of "Natural Selection" and as such I cannot even fathom the idea of creationism. To each his own, I do not begrudge anybody their personal beliefs. I'm a moral person, I respect others, I respect nature (I love animals), I try to be helpful, I'm a family man, I hold my wife in the highest regard and I have many friends who I cherish. However, I don't attend mass and I don't pray. I think/hope there is a higher power. My point is simply this...I know I'm a good person and I know there is a place for me in heaven.

Pete

[Tobey]

Hey Man,
Naw I was not offended in the least. I guess I kinda went on a tangent there sorry. Being a biology student for so many years I have had to take many evoultion courses. Yes evoulution can be proven and I am one of those rare few who believe that there is room for belief for both. True small populations have numerous disavantages for survival( homozygous alleles being driven up and hetorozygous alleles being driven down, natural cotastraphies wipeing out entire populations, ect ect.) as in the case of Adem and Eve. But for me to question the power of God's ability to halt any of these is to deine that he exist at all. If anything it strentghen my faith, however, I to have taken a backseat many times to when it comes to constsantly worshiping him like I should. I'm much like you in alot of ways. I'm a good person who always tries to do right by his fellow man. I do believe in Jesus and I have asked him to come into my heart as my lord and savior and that is my ticket into heaven. No man may enter into the kingdom of heaven through works alone least he boast. I truelly don't think that you could really say anything that would upset me that much Pete. Hell somtimes I think that if I walked up to some of the guys here at AR (you included) I would reconize them right off the bat. I know them that well. We'er family and that means everything in the world to me. Thanks for your apopolgy but it was not necessary. I think your the tops!
Your friend
Tobey

[Pete235]

Tobey,
You're a good man.
Pete

[CYCLEON]

Pete - u may be suprised to learn that, as a firm Christian, I also believe in Darwinian *********, its just that I do not believe that it is in conflict with God's creation.

Something I believe that you would enjoy reading. It is written by a highly acclaimed professor of biology at Brown University.

Finding Darwin's God: A Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and ********* (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060930497/qid=1000585100/sr=2-1/103-6802406-8129468)

[Sicilian30]

wEll for those of you who say that they don't believe in life after death, why is it when something bad happens we tend to resort to God and prayer. I mean, I am not religious fanatic, but I do believe in the "Man Upstairs", flame me if you want, but it takes great faith to believe in something that isn't something we can touch. My question to you is, do you believe in satin? cause if you believe in him, then you have to conclude that there is a God. course all I need to do is look at a beautiful woman, and know, "that there is a God". heeee haaa. just alittle tension releaver..

[BigMike J]

Hard to say, sometimes i hold on to the idea, but there are times that i just don't know. My brother died a little over a year ago, is he still living in another form? It's hard to say. I guess i will know when my times comes.

[Mouseofaman]

No, I don't. I take the scientist viewpoint. I don't believe in a God. I don't believe in life after death. I don't believe in miracles. Show me, and I'll believe. Until then, I stick to my own beliefs. But, I'm still a pretty good guy.

[Mouseofaman]

My question to you is, do you believe in satin?

of course i believe in satin. satin sheets, satin teddy's that my girl wears, satin boxers, a lot of things.

[BigMike J]

haha funny

[bermich]

LIFE AFTER DEATH:
I am not religious. I feel religion breeds hypocricy and seperation. A book translated 10,000 different ways and every one who holds onto that translation feels their religion is the correct one.

Life after Death is an oxy-moron.
It helps those fearful of death live their lives.
They feel that life is a waste if you can not bring any of what you worked for with you : Your memory, your essance.

How can you hold any of that as a spirit? What makes you you is your brain and your nervous system. Without those, you have no memory, no voice, no way of interacting with ANY physical realm

Sure, the movie ghost showed how a ghost can interact with physical objects explaining moving objects and visions. Come on now.

I watched that show " The other side with that John guy today. I couldnt watch more than ten minutes of it. That guy is SUCH A HACK he makes me sick for all the other con artists.

Im hearing a name, Marvin, murrey, miller. Then the person he is talking to says" I know a person named Michelle."
Yes Michelle. That is the name coming to me.
Now. Im getting a number 2. Now this number COULD mean 2 months, 2 years, 2 childnre.

He is so ****ING vague to where he can not be wrong. He throws out a quarter of the puzzle and waits for the person to fill in the other 75 percent making him look like that is what he meant.

Once the brain stops receiving oxegon, we are dead. The brain, and all that we are is dead. Our memories, our ambitions, our emotions. How can spiritual energy contain ANY of that? How does energy contain memory to know where it used to live?

Life after Death keeps people from committing bad things on people. Sure you can get arrested but what you really wonder is eternal life. You dont wanna be in hell forever.
If we knew there was no one to judge us after life, there would be a lot of murders and sins going on.
Its all a scare tactic....

[Tock]

Not really . . .

But in a way, yes . . .
Every day your body sloughs off cells and you make contributions to the little white bathroom chair, and all that stuff eventually gets recycled in the environment, becomes fertilizer for plants, and then animals eat the plants, and etc etc until maybe some of the atoms that you crapped 20 years ago ends up in the produce dept at someone's local supermarket. When a person eats that produce, part of what used to be you ends up a part of someone else's eyeball (or maybe a dog, cow, etc).
So, in the sense that atoms in our bodies are continuously recycled in the environment, yah, we can safely say that the material we are made of today will end up in another plant or animal sooner or later.
But that's about it . . .

[Tobey]

Not really . . .

But in a way, yes . . .
Every day your body sloughs off cells and you make contributions to the little white bathroom chair, and all that stuff eventually gets recycled in the environment, becomes fertilizer for plants, and then animals eat the plants, and etc etc until maybe some of the atoms that you crapped 20 years ago ends up in the produce dept at someone's local supermarket. When a person eats that produce, part of what used to be you ends up a part of someone else's eyeball (or maybe a dog, cow, etc).
So, in the sense that atoms in our bodies are continuously recycled in the environment, yah, we can safely say that the material we are made of today will end up in another plant or animal sooner or later.
But that's about it . . .


Ok Tock I have to ask.
Exactly what biology class did you get this from?

Tobey

[Tock]

Ok Tock I have to ask.
Exactly what biology class did you get this from?

Tobey



Not so much a particular biology class as a combination of a wide range of reading, observation, and general information. Pretty much, just your basic "Food Chain" with provisions for the waste all that eating generates. Add in a touch of materialist philosophy (which makes a lot of sense to me) and voila!

[punk_bbuilder]

I wish i knew....one of my biggest fears is that this is it...I really hope there is something else but if not... i dont want one any regrets on this world....i already have to many. Damn life is short.

[wakatak87]

ok

i was raised as a christian, and as i got older it seemed harder and harder to believe because of all the other religions and how it really seems like we might have just evolved from single celled organisms, and if there is god how are we sure which religion is right blah blah blah......

a MAJOR thing was nearly all the chirstians i know really annoy me, they are really lame and boring goody goody kids who dont know how to have good fun (it doesnt have to be illegal stuff by the way)

BUT....
then you think about when chirstianity first started.....

i read in history that many chirstians were thrown into lions pits and died very bravely... enough so that one roman person (who himself wasnt christian) wrote something about how brave they were when they died.

think about this:

would you tell people you really saw god and he told you the truth and let people know your chirstian when you KNOW youll be eaten by lions or crucified, and then do these without being scared?

just so you could be like hahaha now they believe that jesus guy was the son of god ahaha boy did i get them hahaha oh man im good?

(a lot of people did this by the way)

so thats mostly why im christian, and also whats the point in taking the chance of being in hell forever. seems like a bad spot.

[Sicilian30]

Well let me ask you guys this? Do you believe in asteral projection? The thought of our "spirit" or soul leaving the body has actually been proven that it does work. The government actually uses it as a weapon. So with that thought how can you say we have no soul. That soul has to go somewhere when we die? Where does it go? What about ghosts?
This is a tough question, and everyone has their own logic, and I respect that. But hey if we all agreed on everything the world would be one boring ass place!

[bermich]

YES I BELEIVE IN LIFE AFTER DEATH. This thread was dead six months ago and now it is REBORN. Howaluya.
Praise the lord.

[Da Bull]

No..........

[caturpilar]

YES I BELEIVE IN LIFE AFTER DEATH. This thread was dead six months ago and now it is REBORN. Howaluya.
Praise the lord.

:roflol:


My dad once told me that the world we live in is hell and you can only go up. I believe in god, but I think we all become worm dirt in the end. Kind of contradicting but it works for me.

[LuvMuhRoids]

No...

[MilitiaGuy]

if their is no life after death then wher is the justice ,criminals must be punished for their crimes if they escaped world punishment so i beleive their is hell and heaven

[Tock]

if their is no life after death then wher is the justice ,criminals must be punished for their crimes if they escaped world punishment so i beleive their is hell and heaven



Just because "Criminals should be punished for their crimes" doesn't prove anything. Tragedy happens every day, and the 'bad guys' win more often than they should, and suffer no consequenses.

Consider all the terrible religious leaders in Medeival Europe who killed heretics for centuries and were handsomely rewarded for their efforts, while the religious leaders on the other side were doing the same thing.
It's pretty sad . . . but that's the way it is . . . people have not advanced much in civilization beyond the stone age. Technically, yes, but as far as justice goes, no.
--Tock

[groverman1]

I believe in the opposite of whatever Tock believes.

[Tock]

I believe in the opposite of whatever Tock believes.


Why not? It saves you the bother of thinking for yourself . . .
-Tock

[Jade]

I think when you die you come back again as a baby and you do this over and over again until you get it right. I think that is why some people can learn things or pick up on things easier then other people, they have done it a few times already and they are getting better at this thing called life. Then when you really do it right you get to go to heaven.

[Solrock]

You are God. This is your dream. You are making this all up. Even the parts you do not like. Everything and every person you encounter is a part of you.

Your past lives and future lives are all of the lives you see around you, all of the lives that have ever been or ever will be.

There is no escape. This is your eternal dream. You are free to make it a Heaven or a Hell. In truth, you have made it all of these, and will continue to do so for all of eternity.

Seeing yourself, hearing yourself, tasting yourself, feeling yourself, killing youself, birthing yourself...

Discovering yourself, forgetting yourself... only to discover yourself again... dreaming. Eternally dreaming.

"Row, row, row your boat
gently down the stream
merrily merrily merrily merrily
life is but a .............."

[decadbal]

i do

[Danielle]

i do believe in life after death.........i truly hope there is...........this cant be all there is too life...........there must be more out there then this..........

[ItalianMuscle27]

Is that you in your Avatar, Danielle? One Helluva bod..

O sorry I lost my train of thought, yea I believe there is too. But dont want to find out just yet.

X..

[ice101ownzme]

I think when you die you come back again as a baby and you do this over and over again until you get it right. I think that is why some people can learn things or pick up on things easier then other people, they have done it a few times already and they are getting better at this thing called life. Then when you really do it right you get to go to heaven.

althoguh i am catholic, my whole life i have kinda of believed the same exact thing. i used to think that souls kind of follow eachother, for example your brother might be your best friend, or your father in your next life, and we keep this cycle until we have finally reached the "perfect human" i guess u can say, then its off to that better place. to me this always made the most sense to, but then sometimes when i thought about it, it didnt.. there are few things i believe in, life after death? i want to, obvously. but do i?

one time i sent an email to my biology teacher, saying the reason i dropped her class was infact because it contradicted everyhting i believed (real reason was because i was lazy, and i absolutly cant stand studying it) but in that email, i stated all the reasons of controdiction, and i have to tell you, after writing the email i really did kinda looked at it and think "o ****, what if im right? "what if science goes against everything that we as humans want to believe (which it does) and thats it, thats all there is to it" i really kinda scared myself.

so do i believe? honeslty i have no clue, but i will keep walking this life pretending that i do, in hopes that in the end of whatever i might go through, i will go on to that better place

[skinjob]

"...Yes evoulution can be proven and I am one of those rare few who believe that there is room for belief for both. True ...." "....as in the case of Adem and Eve... "

(this is not aimed at the author of the above who is clearly reasonable and sensible)

i think those that read the bible and take it as a literal document of fact are dangerously stupid, literally. pity there are so many of them and that so many of them are utterly willing to completely ignore many of the other more basic tenets of their faith eg. tolerance, compassion, love etc. in favour of getting hung up on very extreme literal interpretations.

[DBarcelo]

According to the Bible, there is no life after death until the resurection. The 1st resurection is of the set number of people that are going to heaven and the second resurection is that of the rest of the people that will be given the chance to live on earth or face the second death. If you do believe in the Bible, it's all written in Revelations.

[skinjob]

I reckon most of the bible was written by twisted old men

[skinjob]

The King James was the first bit of political spin ever devised. what a horrible, ugly book.

[skinjob]

even more embarassing is that James was a Scot. o dear. the shame. o well. at least we got JLB later on.

[DBarcelo]

I reckon most of the bible was written by twisted old men

If you believe in the Bible and if you know the Bible, it says that it was written by the hand of man but inspired by God himself. So, they could have been twisted old men really, but with God's guidence in doing something, their own personal imperfections mean nothing and have no impact on the Bible.

[DBarcelo]

The King James was the first bit of political spin ever devised. what a horrible, ugly book.


The King James version has been accepted by almost every Christian group as being the most accurate version of the Holy Scriptures. If the King James Version is the most accurate version, then how could it also be the first bit of political spin? Other, inaccurate versions could be considered to have some political spin.

Unless you're assuming that the King James Version is the first Bible and that the Bible itself is the first bit of political spin ever, but then the Bible really isn't political in nature, even though there are parts that refer to the government and politics, but it does talk about the fall of government. So if it were written by man to promote politics or to make people more accepting of government, why would they spell out the end of their own government?

[DBarcelo]

even more embarassing is that James was a Scot. o dear. the shame. o well. at least we got JLB later on.

What does James being a Scott have to do with anything?? Why would that be a shame?? King James didn't write any part of the Bible, he just financed the scribes that coppied the Bible and duplicated it.

[Maraxus]

Its comforting to think that there is life after death. Although I really doubt it. I guess I'll just be taking a dirtnap when I die. Thats why youve got to live up life guys.

[CutMeUp]

anyone ever seen the movie Stigmata? that explains it all. the catholic church hides parts of the bible in order to keep their church going. in the movie there are scriptures left out of the bible that have god saying that we do not need church, but that he is all around us all the time and therefore no need for walls to harness his love.

churches exist bc people like to be accepted. and in order to be accepted there has to be a group to accept you. so people go to church to be accepted. IMO, church has little or nothing to do with what people believe. most people go to church bc "they are supposed to".

ive come full circle bc i went from not believing at all to finally coming to my senses and realizing that there has to be a god. there is no other explanation as to how the universe was created. on the other hand i dont think that god plays a very large role in day to day life. i see it like a movie. he set the universe up the way he wanted and pressed play. its up to us now. i have a theory that he does this over and over and each master species eventually kills itself off and then he starts over.

[max2extreme]

Tobey,

I know you are aware that my post was not meant to inflame or stir things up. I was merely stating my personal beliefs. I respect your faith and I respect what you believe. You are a valued member of this board, you are very articulate and intelligent and I truly understand and appreciate your standpoint. Your points are valid your faith is evident. I hope I didn't offend you my friend.

You may be right about Satan. Maybe he is responsible. Personally, I beleive that most humans are good but there are people who are bad....truly bad. The human brain is not even close to being fully understood. I think it is too easy to blame the many evil, vile unspeakable acts perpetrated by humans on a higher (lower) power. I believe there is a scientific explanation, but we are still very far from understanding why some people do what they do.

I guess I find it most difficult to believe in the old testament. To me, personally, the stories of Noah and Moses sound more like myths (Ala Odin, Zuess). I am a firm believer in Darwins theory of "Natural Selection" and as such I cannot even fathom the idea of creationism. To each his own, I do not begrudge anybody their personal beliefs. I'm a moral person, I respect others, I respect nature (I love animals), I try to be helpful, I'm a family man, I hold my wife in the highest regard and I have many friends who I cherish. However, I don't attend mass and I don't pray. I think/hope there is a higher power. My point is simply this...I know I'm a good person and I know there is a place for me in heaven.

Pete

Pete and others who may believe this. This is not a flame, I once believed this too, but I've learned (and still learning, everyday learning) (and I havnt finished reading the thread if others said this, I apologize, but what you said about "...I know I'm a good person and I know there is a place for me in heaven" is totally wrong. We can not get to heaven thru our own actions. If we could "work" our way to heaven, then we wouldn't need a Savior. Jesus would not have had to die in our place. But we do need a Savior because all our good works still fall short of the Glory of God

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No on comes to the Father except through me."

Isaiah 57:12 "I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will NOT benefit you"

Isaiah 64:6 "Your righteous acts are like filthy rags"

So how is it that you get to heaven, thru grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, its is a gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

So its easy...pray and ask Jesus to save you, confess you're a sinner, believe in it, and you will go to heaven.

BTW, if you havnt read the "Left Behind" series of books, They are GREAT!

later,

max

[Tock]

So its easy...pray and ask Jesus to save you, confess you're a sinner, believe in it, and you will go to heaven.

LOL . . . so you're saying that if an asshole like Adolph Hitler had confessed he was a sinner, he would have gone to heaven, while a saint like Mother Teresa who devoted her life to caring for the poor would have gone to writhe in the eternal agonies of hellfire and ****ation, all because she had been "mistaken" in her theology?
If that is true, then what does that say of the nature of the god who created this bizarre scheme?




BTW, if you havnt read the "Left Behind" series of books, They are GREAT!

And if you look at the book's dust jacket carefully, you'll find a disclaimer, "This is a work of fiction."

--Tock

[Pale Horse]

Yes I believe in life after death, even for my beloved Tock! Everyone knows why I do so no need to explain. I believe that the creator God will make allowances for us all to make it "wiggle room" if you will. To him we are all infantile anyway, he has to understand we are basically morons compared to him .

[max2extreme]

LOL . . . so you're saying that if an asshole like Adolph Hitler had confessed he was a sinner, he would have gone to heaven, while a saint like Mother Teresa who devoted her life to caring for the poor would have gone to writhe in the eternal agonies of hellfire and ****ation, all because she had been "mistaken" in her theology?
If that is true, then what does that say of the nature of the god who created this bizarre scheme?






And if you look at the book's dust jacket carefully, you'll find a disclaimer, "This is a work of fiction."

--Tock

Yes, if Hitler confessed his sins. If he truly repented. Believed in what the bible teaches and that the only way into heaven is thru Jesus, then yes, Hitler too would be allowed in heaven. This shows the forgiving nature of our god.

And yes, if you look at the book's dust jacket carefully, or whatever, just look at it, it says that. Ok. I dont know. If you say so. I never said it was anything. I just said it was a good series. Its a fictional novel with christian references.

-Max

[Tock]

Yes, if Hitler confessed his sins. If he truly repented. Believed in what the bible teaches and that the only way into heaven is thru Jesus, then yes, Hitler too would be allowed in heaven. This shows the forgiving nature of our god.
-Max


It also shows your god's cruel, vindictive nature.
Why punish someone like Mother Teresa with a thousand eternities of unspeakable agony? So she had a different interpretation of the Bible than you do . . . is that a reason to send a charitable, loving person to writhe in hellfire and brimstone?
According to Evangelical theology, yes, it is.
IMHO, any god that works things that way is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
-Tock

[Tock]

I believe that the creator God will make allowances for us all to make it "wiggle room" if you will.


Got a scripture to back that up?
-Tock

[Pale Horse]

Nope, that's my hope...I can dream can't I?

[Salesianito]

I just believe in god.......

[max2extreme]

It also shows your god's cruel, vindictive nature.
Why punish someone like Mother Teresa with a thousand eternities of unspeakable agony? So she had a different interpretation of the Bible than you do . . . is that a reason to send a charitable, loving person to writhe in hellfire and brimstone?
According to Evangelical theology, yes, it is.
IMHO, any god that works things that way is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
-Tock


This goes back to the topic of 'You cant get into heaven based on your works.' To us, yes, Mother Teresa is a great person. But the best works we could do still falls short of the Glory of God. Thats just how it is. Its in the bible. Its like this, lets say you are a GREAT person. (which im not saying you arent..haha but just go with this. *smile*) and you are law abiding, and blah blah. lets say you are a ruler of a small town. you decide who lives in your town and who doesnt. you dont want no trouble or anything. well, lets say you have a group of people, lets give a number of 50 people. And we'll keep their sin to only one, all of them are murderers. And all of them kill, would kill, have killed or whatever for no reason at all. Just because. But there is one person who murders only if someone gets mad at him. To that group of 50 people, that one guy is a pretty nice guy. He murders for a reason. If anyone gets into this town of yours, its him. Are you going to let him into your town? knowing that he is a murderer and has murdered and if he gets mad, hes gonna murder your people. Thats how I can rationalize it. We are that group of 50 people. To us, there are great people that we believe should get into heaven. True its not murder that we are talking about with Mother Theresa, but in God's eyes, we are all sinners. And only after we repent and thru jesus will he let us into heaven. Just as if this guy truly repented, you'd let him into your town. (repent as in seeing the repentance as God does. Of course as people, we cant see if someone truly repents, but God can).

Max

[max2extreme]

Got a scripture to back that up?
-Tock


"I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you"
(Isaiah 57:12)


no wiggle room. We have all this hope that our good deeds will get us into heaven. We hope there's this 'wiggle room'...but if you believe in heaven. And you believe in God. As seems most people in this thread do, why is it so hard to believe in the bible, god's word?

-max

[Tock]

"I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you"
(Isaiah 57:12)


no wiggle room. We have all this hope that our good deeds will get us into heaven. We hope there's this 'wiggle room'...but if you believe in heaven. And you believe in God. As seems most people in this thread do, why is it so hard to believe in the bible, god's word?

-max



Cool.
Give Heaven to a mass murderer like Adolph Hitler who repents on his deathbed, and send Mother Teresa to an eternity of unspeakable torment after a lifetime of caring for the poor and needy.
If that is the message of the Bible, who f---- needs it?
-Tock

[Pale Horse]

Max I believe in God and his word. I also believe that we are but infants in his eyes. Intolerance is a sin and judgment is a sin and I am in no position to say what is right or wrong for others but to lead my life in Gods word. I think that God wants EVERYONE to make it to heaven, he doesn't want to lose a single soul. Repentance is an example of "wiggle room". God is not fatalistic but full of Grace.

[max2extreme]

1victor, i think we are talking about the same thing. I believe god wants everyone to make it to heaven as well. And everything in your post. I guess I was still talking more about those who feel their good deeds will get them to heaven. If by wiggle room someone meant "I believe in god. Im a good person. I try not to sin. Ill get into heaven." then no, thats wrong. But i dont think you meant that now...If you repent, and for those who misunderstand, by repentance, its not just "im sorry" by repentance, its a change of lifestyle that because of and causes you not to want to sin again, then yes, repent, truly mean it, sometimes "mess up", etc repent...and you truly are a christian, etc etc..then you'll go to heaven, that how I believe too.

Tock, of course its going to seem totally outrageous because of the extreme examples you have chosen, but it still stands. Of course (i believe) mother teresa is in heaven now, but you never know her true thoughts. But by true repentance, you are forgiven. Thru Jesus Christ. By true repentance, hitler on his death bed, god would know, that if hitler was given another chance to go back, he would not do any of that again, then the gates are open. If hitler repented just because hes dying, but truly if he werent dying, hed start back or given another chance would do the same as he did, then god would see this and he would be sent to hell.

You ask "who F---- needs it?" And Im as serious as I can get. Everyone. Human life is short. But eternity is well, eternity. Revelations should scare a non-christian. Read it and just imagine, what if? What if all this is true. read what you are going to go thru. the hell. literally and figuratively. Perhaps someone who reads this and does the what if, and it scares them, will read the bible more, learn, and truly believe...

-max

[Pale Horse]

Now I understand what you meant.

[Jantzen4k]

if you dont believe, just watch The Travel Channel's special on Haunted Hotels. That sh*t is scary. This guy has a picture of a spirit on the ceiling. people claimed that its just smoke but he claims that noone smokes in the building. made me a believer

[Cyto78]

I've seen ghosts twice in my life as clear as day........I have also experienced a few other extreme events in my life that has made me conclude within my own heart that yes there is a god.


Interesting.....

Revelation 14:10 says, " . . . and he shall be tormented with fire and BRIMSTONE . . ." And Job 18 describes the " . . . PLACE of him that knoweth not God" (vs 21), in verse 15 as, " . . . BRIMSTONE shall be scattered upon his habitation." Do you know what brimstone is? It's sulfur. And do you know where sulfur or brimstone is found? INSIDE THIS EARTH! According to the book Volcanoes by Pierre Kohler (p. 43), when Mt. St Helens erupted in 1980 — 150,000 tons of sulfurous gas was ejected! Job is the oldest book in the Bible, written over 3,000 years ago, and yet Job knew what science wouldn't know for years — inside this earth is BRIMSTONE!

Nature magazine recently discovered (July 2002) what the Bible knew over 3,000 years ago. Inside this earth is "fire and brimstone":


http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

[Badgerman]

I believe God can save every person and that He can reconcile everything to Himself through Jesus. Now there may be an order to the resurrection, but God owns everything....made everything including evil.... and will save everything.....even Judas even Satan.....God can fix it all.
The lake of fire is a purification.....God will purify His creation.
Good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference. Can't know one without the other.

[Pale Horse]

Bader, WOW! Very insightful you knocked me for a loop!

[Badgerman]

Bader, WOW! Very insightful you knocked me for a loop!

wierd, huh?

[Pale Horse]

Yes indeed. I never would have guessed.

[Badgerman]

Yes indeed. I never would have guessed.

Bro....when you reach the point of believeing God does everything, all the philosophical contradictions fall away......there's no "problem of evil" ....no deciding who made a real decision for the Lord......no talk about who goes to hell and who doesn't....and it relieves YOU of the agony of whether you have enough faith......it just strips away all the bulls*** that man has attached to God. Anyway, I believe it's pretty simple that way......sure the true believers
will be in the first resurrection.....but if you dig around there are a couple of verses......one talks about the believers begat by the will of God being the "firstfruits of ALL creation"........this is James 1:18......then if you look at how firstfruits work(it's also good to look at the feasts of Israel)......it basically says if the firstfruit is holy then the whole shebang is holy.......so it goes.....Jesus...THE firstfruit.....believers the firstfruit of ALL creation.......which in turn makes the whole creation holy
And I think Romans 11:16 supports that notion.


Now I know this is kind of unconventional, but to me it is the only way I can reconcile everything and not commit intellectual suicide.....

[hung-solo]

do you guys beleive that there is life after death???

i beleive in god but seems like the older you get you ask these questions on and on and no proof or answer to all of this.

nope i believe what the native americans thought," you give back to the earth, what earth gave to you." therefore in a sense i guess you do live on one way or another..

[hung-solo]

I believe God can save every person and that He can reconcile everything to Himself through Jesus. Now there may be an order to the resurrection, but God owns everything....made everything including evil.... and will save everything.....even Judas even Satan.....God can fix it all.
The lake of fire is a purification.....God will purify His creation.
Good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference. Can't know one without the other.

if god can fix it all why cant he fix this whole mess we got ourselves into? or why couldnt he save the african americans back in the day? or even the native americans?? why couldnt he save those poor children held captive in russia? why couldnt god save my uncle, that was a **** good christian, from getting slain infront of his little boys and wife???? huh?? where is the answer to that?? you guys say god works in mysterious ways..... does he now? sorry i had to vent for sec.

[Pale Horse]

Without purpose life has no meaning. To all that do not believe I would ask what is your puropse in life? What drives you? What consumes you and keeps you moving forward. It could be a good thing like love etc.. or it could be anger or hate..etc..

I ask all of you what is YOUR purpose in life. Please no shallow funny answers, I am genuinely interested in your responses.

[hung-solo]

It also shows your god's cruel, vindictive nature.
Why punish someone like Mother Teresa with a thousand eternities of unspeakable agony? So she had a different interpretation of the Bible than you do . . . is that a reason to send a charitable, loving person to writhe in hellfire and brimstone?
According to Evangelical theology, yes, it is.
IMHO, any god that works things that way is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
-Tock

very nicely put tock! but that goes back to the "blind faith" i truly believe those are the ones suffering..

[Badgerman]

if god can fix it all why cant he fix this whole mess we got ourselves into? or why couldnt he save the african americans back in the day? or even the native americans?? why couldnt he save those poor children held captive in russia? why couldnt god save my uncle, that was a **** good christian, from getting slain infront of his little boys and wife???? huh?? where is the answer to that?? you guys say god works in mysterious ways..... does he now? sorry i had to vent for sec.

It will all be fixed in due time, bro. Without a standard, how would you know the difference btween good and evil? Without God there would be no morality.....there would be no good and evil......just life......the very fact that you are outraged by the wrong should get ya thinkin.

[MMC78]

I for one know that I am going to heaven. So if any of you guys want good refs, you'd better be *extra* nice to me.

[Tock]

Without purpose life has no meaning. To all that do not believe I would ask what is your puropse in life? What drives you? What consumes you and keeps you moving forward. It could be a good thing like love etc.. or it could be anger or hate..etc..

I ask all of you what is YOUR purpose in life. Please no shallow funny answers, I am genuinely interested in your responses.


There is no supernaturally established purpose in life.
All that we humans are, is a lump of complex bio-electrical chemical reactions, and that's it.
If there's any more, you gotta show how your reasoning is reasonable . . .
-Tock

[Tock]

Without God there would be no morality.....


Lots of societies down through the years have done just fine without the Christian gods. Conversely, lots of societies WITH the christian religion live in misery--look at Europe during the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Roman Catholic Church's attempt to eridicate Democracy, all these crooked TV evangelists, child-molesting priests and ministers . . . I daresay that the Christian religion hasn't added anything to our society but fear and guilt.

The Bible's version of morality sucks big time . . . as we've covered in another thread, according to the Bible, it's possible for a person who spent his entire life tormenting other people to repent on his deathbed and go to heaven. But, a if person like Mother Teresa devotes her life to caring for the poor and homeless, but does not beleive and practice the correct Protestant theology, she's gonna be sent to burn in Hell forever.
Doesn't sound like Morality to me.

-Tock

[Badgerman]

Lots of societies down through the years have done just fine without the Christian gods. Conversely, lots of societies WITH the christian religion live in misery--look at Europe during the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Roman Catholic Church's attempt to eridicate Democracy, all these crooked TV evangelists, child-molesting priests and ministers . . . I daresay that the Christian religion hasn't added anything to our society but fear and guilt.

The Bible's version of morality sucks big time . . . as we've covered in another thread, according to the Bible, it's possible for a person who spent his entire life tormenting other people to repent on his deathbed and go to heaven. But, a if person like Mother Teresa devotes her life to caring for the poor and homeless, but does not beleive and practice the correct Protestant theology, she's gonna be sent to burn in Hell forever.
Doesn't sound like Morality to me.

-Tock

I never said that......one of the earliest practioners of Christianity was a universalist....Origen......plus the bible really says you will be judged according to your works......without works....faith is dead.......Also, true faith and Roman Catholicism are not necessarily the same thing.....do the works of the Inquisition show true faith??....no.....plus hell is referred to as "agelasting" not forever.......so when you hear the claim of I'm saved....don't take it at face value.....do the works fit the mouth.....most of the time they don't.....

[Pale Horse]

Tock, remove God from the picture what is your purpose, what drives you?

[Tock]

Tock, remove God from the picture what is your purpose, what drives you?


At the bottom of it all, it's the age-old time-honored principles of pain and pleasure. Add in a few delusions, and that's about all there is.

You might think that's depressing, not having the promises of heaven, but since there's no substantiation for those allegations, all we can say is that aside from a beleiver's "wishful thinking," it's all pie-in-the-sky.

But it's not depressing at all, though, because just as there is no eternal heaven, there is no eternal punishment either. Any cause you may have had to be afraid of the afterlife is gone. Actually, the molecules that make up your body will decompose and become one with the environment, and those molecules will become a part of trees, flowers, bugs, even drinking water. What you are now will eventually be recycled into other forms of life, and probably into parts of other people.

The upshot is . . . ya better have a good life in the here and now, because this is the only chance you're gonna get. Love your family and friends, enrich yourself with relationships (important to me), look after your material needs, and enjoy whatever arts that bring you into harmony with your surroundings.
That, plus a few cycles of dBol and Test, what else is there, besides fiction?

-Tock

[max2extreme]

I believe God can save every person and that He can reconcile everything to Himself through Jesus. Now there may be an order to the resurrection, but God owns everything....made everything including evil.... and will save everything.....even Judas even Satan.....God can fix it all.
The lake of fire is a purification.....God will purify His creation.
Good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference. Can't know one without the other.

The bible totally contradicts this. It says nothing about judas or satan being saved. God did create everything. I guess you could say God created evil, or at any rate, he allowed it. But, and this is an honest question, where did you come up with this post? The lake of fire is purification? What are you basing this on? Satan will be saved?? Are you saying that for now, good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference, but in the end everyone is going to heaven? If so, where are you getting this? Its nowhere in the bible. Things like this may spark some 'human minds' but as christians, everything should be judged according to the bible. This really isnt insightful to me. Its just talk. And please dont turn this into me flaming you, im not. Im just conversing and listening, and giving what I think.

-max

[max2extreme]

nope i believe what the native americans thought," you give back to the earth, what earth gave to you." therefore in a sense i guess you do live on one way or another..


I dont believe "earth gave to me"...I believe God gave to me, thus I give all back to God.

-Max

[max2extreme]

if god can fix it all why cant he fix this whole mess we got ourselves into? or why couldnt he save the african americans back in the day? or even the native americans?? why couldnt he save those poor children held captive in russia? why couldnt god save my uncle, that was a **** good christian, from getting slain infront of his little boys and wife???? huh?? where is the answer to that?? you guys say god works in mysterious ways..... does he now? sorry i had to vent for sec.


When I read your post hung, I thought immediatly of the bible verse that says "do not test your god". God can fix the mess, etc etc. Im sorry you had a loss in your family. I have too. Im not saying I know how you feel, I dont know you or anything, but you cant let losses cause you to turn against God. The point is that we are not robots and God has no intentions of controlling us. He wants us to make our own decisions and glorify him. God doesnt make bad things happen, he allows them to happen. Your uncle was a christian, thats great. Something bad happened to him, that sucks. But now hes in heaven because of the choices he made.

-max

[max2extreme]

I never said that......one of the earliest practioners of Christianity was a universalist....Origen......plus the bible really says you will be judged according to your works......without works....faith is dead.......Also, true faith and Roman Catholicism are not necessarily the same thing.....do the works of the Inquisition show true faith??....no.....plus hell is referred to as "agelasting" not forever.......so when you hear the claim of I'm saved....don't take it at face value.....do the works fit the mouth.....most of the time they don't.....


Kind of. It doesnt say you will be judged by your works. Thats just another way of saying you'll get into heaven based on your works. BUT, by being a good christian and living as such, you're works will reflect that goodness.

-max

[max2extreme]

At the bottom of it all, it's the age-old time-honored principles of pain and pleasure. Add in a few delusions, and that's about all there is.

You might think that's depressing, not having the promises of heaven, but since there's no substantiation for those allegations, all we can say is that aside from a beleiver's "wishful thinking," it's all pie-in-the-sky.

But it's not depressing at all, though, because just as there is no eternal heaven, there is no eternal punishment either. Any cause you may have had to be afraid of the afterlife is gone. Actually, the molecules that make up your body will decompose and become one with the environment, and those molecules will become a part of trees, flowers, bugs, even drinking water. What you are now will eventually be recycled into other forms of life, and probably into parts of other people.

The upshot is . . . ya better have a good life in the here and now, because this is the only chance you're gonna get. Love your family and friends, enrich yourself with relationships (important to me), look after your material needs, and enjoy whatever arts that bring you into harmony with your surroundings.
That, plus a few cycles of dBol and Test, what else is there, besides fiction?

-Tock


Tock, I have a question that I dont need an answer to. I just want to ask it so you read it and only you will know. Does the question of God, Heaven, and Hell ever pop into your head? If so, do you ever think that its God trying to put a seed in? I mean I just wonder why such a thought would be placed there because you seem to have such stern, not anti religious, but you know what i mean, thoughts, that the question of there really being a God should not at all pop in your head.

What would it take to make you kinda believe, or almost, or think again about your thoughts of what the bible teaches? (this question it would be good for a reply, but up to you man..)

-Max

[Tock]

The bible totally contradicts this. It says . . .

Who cares what the bible says?
Only people who have FAITH in it do. The rest of us don't.
--Tock

[Tock]

Tock, I have a question that I dont need an answer to. I just want to ask it so you read it and only you will know. Does the question of God, Heaven, and Hell ever pop into your head?

I holler "Jezuz Christ" when pissed or in the middle of "intimate encounters." I am frequently reminded of other people's religion, but left to my own business, no, the thought would never enter my mind.




What would it take to make you kinda believe, or almost, or think again about your thoughts of what the bible teaches? (this question it would be good for a reply, but up to you man..)
-Max

Why should anyone worry what I think about the bible? I have my opinion, based on years of study (prompted by lively debate), and unless someone re-writes the damm thing to make it beleivable, don't expect my thoughts on it to change.

I already know what it would take for you to change your opinion. Until (1) you assert your courage to think freely, and (2) are able to think unencumbered without being socially shunned by the church people on whom your social life is so dependant, and (3) have the support of unbeleivers to help you through your psychologocial dependancies on your religious fantasy, you ain't (can't) tear yourself away from your fundamentalism.

On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs.

Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.

--Tock

[max2extreme]

I holler "Jezuz Christ" when pissed or in the middle of "intimate encounters." I am frequently reminded of other people's religion, but left to my own business, no, the thought would never enter my mind.

Why should anyone worry what I think about the bible? I have my opinion, based on years of study (prompted by lively debate), and unless someone re-writes the damm thing to make it beleivable, don't expect my thoughts on it to change.

I already know what it would take for you to change your opinion. Until (1) you assert your courage to think freely, and (2) are able to think unencumbered without being socially shunned by the church people on whom your social life is so dependant, and (3) have the support of unbeleivers to help you through your psychologocial dependancies on your religious fantasy, you ain't (can't) tear yourself away from your fundamentalism.

On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs.

Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.

--Tock

Now, did I ever once say anything wrong about your beliefs? Did I say anything at all about you not having enough courage to go against your friends/family/the general populous, thus you wont ever be a christian? I was simply discussing, debating if you will. I stated what I consider facts from the bible. If you are done with discussion, just say so. But dont send it to flames...(haha, kinda funny, flames.)

But you know what, in reply,

(1) Do you think it takes more courage to believe or not believe in the world we live in? Today or the past? At least for now, we dont die because we are christians like it used to be, but the day will come again.

(2) I include myself in all my posts. My social life doesnt revolve around the church, unfortunatly. I struggle with sin just as everyone else does. I sin every day. The church doesnt and would not shun me or anyone else for this. (and you dont know me anyway, how can you even make a comment about my social life).

(3) Im happy I tore myself away from the ways of a non-believer and into the church.


[QUOTE=Tock]On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs.

Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.


You write this as if there are soooo many more christians than there are non? Is this what you think? I have blind faith in the bible. If any doubts or questions come into my head, I look to the bible. If its there, its the truth. And then its not a doubt or question. If its not, or until I can find some supportive facts to either side, its a question. Im happy for my addiction. I wish I was more addicted. :)

If you really still want to discuss this, then good. Throw some challenges out. I have one for you. What do you think about the dead sea scrolls and how they were scientifically dated, but yet had things written on them that was later found, and proven to be dated AFTER the scrolls?? If you dont have an answer thats fine, it doesnt prove a point. Just as im sure you can ask me questions, tons of questions, that i wont have an answer for.

-max

[MMC78]

I holler "Jezuz Christ" when pissed or in the middle of "intimate encounters." I am frequently reminded of other people's religion, but left to my own business, no, the thought would never enter my mind.

Why should anyone worry what I think about the bible? I have my opinion, based on years of study (prompted by lively debate), and unless someone re-writes the damm thing to make it beleivable, don't expect my thoughts on it to change.

I already know what it would take for you to change your opinion. Until (1) you assert your courage to think freely, and (2) are able to think unencumbered without being socially shunned by the church people on whom your social life is so dependant, and (3) have the support of unbeleivers to help you through your psychologocial dependancies on your religious fantasy, you ain't (can't) tear yourself away from your fundamentalism.

On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs.

Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.

--Tock

This was a little over the top Tock. There's no noble reason to attack someone else's beleif system regardless of your own personal beleifs. You certainly aren't going to win any arguments by insulting them. And what are your motives for changing their mind if they incur no harm to you?

[Todd Scott]

i am also a catholic and do beleive in god, but have not set foot in a church since i was 7 years old.

I do live a good life, i respect my girlfriend, and family and try to be good with all people to help them has much has i can.

I to beleve that if you respected others their will be a good place in heaven.

I am really chocked with what happened in NY becose the ones that did this are among the strongest beleivers in god on the planet, what made them think that god would approve of such a disaster???

This is behond me.
A good point my friend. All throughout history religion has killed billions of innocent people. Quite ironic really!

[Badgerman]

The bible totally contradicts this. It says nothing about judas or satan being saved. God did create everything. I guess you could say God created evil, or at any rate, he allowed it. But, and this is an honest question, where did you come up with this post? The lake of fire is purification? What are you basing this on? Satan will be saved?? Are you saying that for now, good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference, but in the end everyone is going to heaven? If so, where are you getting this? Its nowhere in the bible. Things like this may spark some 'human minds' but as christians, everything should be judged according to the bible. This really isnt insightful to me. Its just talk. And please dont turn this into me flaming you, im not. Im just conversing and listening, and giving what I think.

-max

I disagree with you. I believe you are one who thinks you can choose God.
I propose otherwise.

First, God is Almighty - He has ALL the power. "I am Almighty God." (Gen 17:1; Rev 15:3; etc.)
In His All mightiness God creates ALL. "God who makes all things." (Gen 1:1; Qoh 11:5; Jer 10:16)
In God's creating, God creates good. "I make alive ... I heal ... I make peace ... the Lord [YHWH] is good to all: and his mercies are over all his WORKS." (Gen 1:31; Deut 32:39; Pss 145:9; Isa 45:7)
God even predestinates some to good. (Rom 9:21-23; Eph 1:4-5; etc.;
But somehow in God's all powerfulness, He creates evil. "I kill ... I wound ... and create evil." (Deut 32:39; Isa 45:7)
God even predestinates some to evil. (See Prov 16:4; Rom 9:21-23; 1Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4;
Yet God will in the future make ALL THINGS NEW. "I make all things new." (Isa 65:17; Rev 21:5)
And then ALL WILL BE IN GOD. "Then the end ... the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death ... that God may be all in all." (1Cor 15:24-28)
God even gives:
the Spirit (1Cor 12:1; Gal 4:6 ff)
repentance (Acts 5:31, 11:18; 2Tim 2:25)
grace (Rom 11:5-6, 15:15)
salvation (Titus 3:5-7)



For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1Cor 15:22; see Pss 82:7-8; Rom 5:14-18).



"For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection out of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order" (1Cor 15:21-23, NASB).

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruit, after that those who are Christ's at His coming" (1Cor 15:23, NASB).

Christ's resurrection was represented by the waving of the sheaf of the first fruits of Israel's first harvest of the year. Christians' resurrection was represented by Israel's spring harvest and its feast of weeks. The resurrection of the final harvest is represented by the final harvest of Israel in its feast of tabernacles. Another antitypical pattern is the Biblical Joseph (Christ), Manasseh (Christians), and Ephraim (the resurrection of the multitude of nations)

"For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruit, after that those who are Christ's at his coming, then comes the end" (1Cor 15:22-24).

The third order is resurrected at the end. The "end" Paul is speaking about here is amplified on in verses 24-28. The end comes when:

Christ has abolished all rule and all authority and power of his enemies (v. 24b & 25).
The last enemy abolished is death.
At that time ALL things have been put under Christ's feet (The exception to "all" is indicated in verse 27b).
At that time God will be ALL in ALL.


At the end there will be no death. This chapter in 1Corinthians chapter 15 is speaking about resurrections to life, about immortality. Thus, after the third resurrection to immortality, then death is abolished, then the God is ALL in ALL. Satan and his evil influence will be abolished. Death, Satan's greatest power (Heb 2:14), is abolished at the END. Since God is ALL in ALL at the "end," and since God is love (1John 4:8), then Biblical love will be in ALL at the "end." There will be NO evil. In Christ all shall be made alive. This is, alive in the Spiritual sense of alive - being immortal and being inside the true life, being inside of God and His true Biblical love.


After death is abolished, then comes true the saying, "death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory?" (1Cor 15:54-55; see Hos 13:14)


Here is some further proof that all will be saved:

(1) "For God has concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL" (Rom 11:32).
(2) "For out of Him, and through him, and to Him, are ALL things" (Rom 11:36, see Greek text).
(3) "The Lord is good to ALL, and His mercies are over ALL his works. ALL thy works shall give thanks to thee, O Lord" (Pss 145:9-10, NASB).
(4) "And so ALL Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26).
(5) "In the Lord shall ALL the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory" (Isa 45:25).
(6) "ALL the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and ALL the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee" (Pss 22:27). [Here, in the antitype, it speaks of real worship; the only way you can really worship God is with the Spirit of God (John 4:24; Rom 8:8-9).]
(7) "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of ALL flesh: is there any word too hard for me?" (Jer 32:27)
God is the God of ALL flesh. But now in this age Satan is the god of the flesh belonging to this present evil age (2Cor 4:4). Thus at some future time God will truly be God of all flesh.

After Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were dead, God spoke to Moses, "I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Exod 3:6). To give proof for the resurrection of the dead Christ said, "now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for ALL live unto him" (Luke 20:37-38).

By God calling Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob when they were dead, He was projecting their future resurrection to life. By God saying He is "God of ALL flesh," He is projecting the resurrection of all flesh to life in the future.

(8) "Praise ye the Lord: praise ye the Lord from heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, ALL HIS ANGELS ... Praise the Lord from the earth ... kings of the earth, and ALL people, princes, and ALL judges of the earth: both young men, and maidens; old men, children ... Let EVERYTHING that has breath praise the Lord" (Pss 148:1-2,7,11-12, 150:6).
These Psalms were not placed in the Bible for mere words of hope; they are words of prophecy like Pss 22, 110, and all others. All will praise God in the truest sense (note Isa 45:23; Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10-11).

In order for ALL to praise God, then ALL must be resurrected to life. Thus,

(9) "For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee" (Isa 38:18-19).
As this scripture shows, for number (8) to come true, then all must be resurrected to life - Spiritual life.

[decadbal]

well lets all hope so

[max2extreme]

Badgerman,

I dont see anywhere in this post that answers the questions of my reply. Ill talk to one thing here, but after you read my reply, can you please break this post down into a smaller post that you think answers a certain question that I posed?? Thanks.

Ill reply to your number 8 for now though.

(8) "Praise ye the Lord: praise ye the Lord from heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, ALL HIS ANGELS ... Praise the Lord from the earth ... kings of the earth, and ALL people, princes, and ALL judges of the earth: both young men, and maidens; old men, children ... Let EVERYTHING that has breath praise the Lord" (Pss 148:1-2,7,11-12, 150:6).
These Psalms were not placed in the Bible for mere words of hope; they are words of prophecy like Pss 22, 110, and all others. All will praise God in the truest sense (note Isa 45:23; Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10-11).


Your number 8 is a call to praise the lord, not a prophesy that all will praise him. Though, if your meaning is otherwise, it does say that even demons, even the devil, all evil recognizes the Lord, they just dont choose to follow him, thus sending them to hell.


But please reply with specifics that you posted, with why you think this.

example: a)Prove to me that judas and satan will be saved.
b)Prove to me the lake of fire is just a purification and all will go to heaven.

If you include verses, explain what you think these mean, dont just put verses because my interpretation may be different than yours, and perhaps one can prove the other thru other verses...

Later man,

max

[Badgerman]

well lets all hope so

That's what I mean......with God all powerful there is absolute hope......
with the way alot of so-called Christians view the world there is no hope at all
.....only doubts about "do I have enough faith"...."am I saved"....."why would a loving God send a baby to hell for eternity"......"what about those that never hear the gospel"......."why did God kill all those people in the Old Testament"......."how could Saul have the Holy Spirit and then be given an evil spirit"......."what if I'm pre-destined for an eternal hell"......questions most churchdom is SCARED to address......that's why you watch TV and there
is nothing but superficial crap on religious channels.......they do not know how to address the REAL questions that arise with any belief system that really make a difference in how you think......that is what can become a stumbling block for a searching mind.....inadequate answers to serious questions.

Max.... if you understand ALL in ALL.....you realize the lake of fire has to be gone in the end......there can be no evil anywhere......so it follows logically that Satan has to be brought into God......after all that's where he went out of.....like us.....and will be brought back.....without evil.......he was the cherubim on the left side of God

[max2extreme]

That's what I mean......with God all powerful there is absolute hope......
with the way alot of so-called Christians view the world there is no hope at all
.....only doubts about "do I have enough faith"...."am I saved"....."why would a loving God send a baby to hell for eternity"......"what about those that never hear the gospel"......."why did God kill all those people in the Old Testament"......."how could Saul have the Holy Spirit and then be given an evil spirit"......."what if I'm pre-destined for an eternal hell"......questions most churchdom is SCARED to address......that's why you watch TV and there
is nothing but superficial crap on religious channels.......they do not know how to address the REAL questions that arise with any belief system that really make a difference in how you think......that is what can become a stumbling block for a searching mind.....inadequate answers to serious questions.

Max.... if you understand ALL in ALL.....you realize the lake of fire has to be gone in the end......there can be no evil anywhere......so it follows logically that Satan has to be brought into God......after all that's where he went out of.....like us.....and will be brought back.....without evil.......he was the cherubim on the left side of God


2. All of the 'so called christians...' that you said and all those questions you wrote... christians dont have fears as such. christians dont wonder if they are saved. Im sure there are churches, in fact though I never been to one, there has to be. Im sure you are right there are some churches that are scared to address such things. but I would definatly not say all or most, or even half. thats one reason why you cant just go to any ordinary church. my fiancee and i spent 7 weeks going to different churches until we found the one that we like. and if you dont have that oppertunity, then its great to seek out yourselves and the internet is a great place for that. AS LONG as what you read, you dont take as the truth. Make sure you check yourself in the bible. All things I post here, please dont take as truth. Go check out the bible for yourself. write back, and maybe i was wrong about something, but dont just put out things here addressed to me as a rebuke to something i said and not back it up with bible scripture. (Badger, this isnt directed at you, just general comments, you do a good job).

Support your second paragraph badger. It is true, in the end, all evil will be gone. Why does it follow logically that that means satan will be brought to god? Why cant it follow logically that that means satan and all evil will be abolished, destroyed? I dont have a bible with me at this time to prove this. But you look for passages to support your view on this, and Ill look and support my view. It may not be till tomorrow....But if you dont hear from me today, i fly back home tomorrow and will get online. (im out of town right now).

have a good one.

max

[sorn]

I want to believe but I can't say that I do. What I find one of the most stupid things christains (any other religions) say is that the animal soul is mortal but the human soul is immortal. I think that's dumb.. if we have afterlife I believe monkeys and dogs and other mammals also have one. Are we not mammals? Did we not evolve from monkeys? What about the neanderdalsman?

I remember a story I heard by some christain from the TV. He was telling that story to strenghten the believe in afterlife.
He said when some man who his wife knew died his dog began barking at the exact time of death. The dog ran around barking seemingly following something invisible which the narrator interpreted was the soul.
The conclusion is Man has soul because his dog can see it... but according to Christain believes the dog hasn't one (STILL he can see it according to that christains story).

A dog would never see a soul if he hadn't one 'cause it wouln't mean anything to him. *********ary it wouldn't happen. Not that I believe dogs have immortal souls.. just pointing out another christian who preaches something which doesn't make sense even with his own believes.

But one of the main problems I have with believing in afterlife is : people are always dying .. so where can you get the space for all those dead people. There's always new people coming in but noone dies (unless the afterlife is some kind of reincarnation).

Also of course there's no proof for afterlife.

[Tock]

Wow . . . check out THIS babtist church . . . talk about yer neighborhood tight-ass society . . .

www.landoverbaptist.org

-Tock

[Bryan2]

My beliefs are a litle different from the mainstream Christianty.

1 I beleive that people were never meant to die.
death is only a result of sin Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10
"For the living know that they die; but the dead know not of any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
This means that the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything. They no longer have any thoughts, as the Bible states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish"(Psalm 146:3, 4)
At death mans spirit, his life-force which is sustained by by breathing, "goes out." It no longer exists. So mans senses of hearing, sight, touch, smell, and taste, which depend upon his being able to think, all stop working. According to the Bible, the dead enter a state of complete unconsciousness.
When they are dead, both humans and animals are in this same state of complete unconsciousness. Note how the Bible makes this point "As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust." ( Ecclesiates 3:19, 20) the "spirit" that makes animals live is the same as that which makes humans live. When this "spirit," or invisible life-force, goes out, both man and beast return to the dust from which they are made.

[Pale Horse]

Bryan, I understand what you are saying but that is Old Testament thinking along the Jewish faith which is fine, it seems that your beliefs are more in line with them, just an opinion.

Sorn, free will is the major defining factor between humans and animals. Consciousness......... to do right and wrong, animals know no different this is where the soul lies. It is more complex than that, and of course it is my belief.

[TexasFitnessGirl]

I really enjoy reading intellectually stimulating posts. My entire life I believed without reservation in God, and the lord Jesus Christ. I spent hours teaching saunday school, leading the local youth group and praying in private. My life was a perfect picture. Then my husband left for a fishing trip to Cabo San Lucas Mexico, only to return in a cardboard box. Did this sway my faith, Oh no not at all - this is the time I leaned on my Lord Jesus Christ the hardest, I told him that I excepted death as a part of life and that he allowed my husband to have a glorious death perfectly fitting of a glorious man. My disbelief came when I asked the lord to take away not my pain, but the pain of my two children. I prayed that in the most difficult struggle of our lives, he make things a little simpler. Well my friends, sadly to inform you, i don't think he was listening. I still pray to him but sometimes I do wonder if the entire concept of heaven and hell was made up just so that during our time on earth we will attempt to set aside our own greed & desires because we think there is some just reward at the end or some terrible punishment for those who don't. I am an extremely forgiving person, I don't judge people unless I am kidding, I don't hate and I don't hold grudges. The only difference is that I do these things because I choose to be a good person not because I am afraid of being denied entrance into the kingdom of heaven. I am hoping that when I arrive - he will understand!

[Pale Horse]

It is one of the hardest things to do, to try to say the right thing or quote some verse or scripture to comfort someone who has lost so much. In human terms there are no words. Many if not all of the athiests on this board balk at the idea of faith as insanity or a "drug of the masses". The Bible says God knew you before you were born, He knows the number of hairs on your head, He knew who you would marry and everything about you and still does. Why would He let this happen to you? Only He knows the answer to that. This piece of "real estate" called earth that we are spinning around on is not meant for us (spiritual beings). The way the deal played out was that the devil has the "lease" if you will on this earth. And quite frankly he is a ****ty landlord, the place is a slum! We are given free will to act and react to everything that happens to us, for us or by us. This is a gift from God, the Angels don't even have free will. What are you doing now with your free will, where is it taking you? Are you pleased with the results? I am very sorry for your loss and especially for your children. I don't know but it sounds as if all faith is lost in you. How is that working for you in your life? God wants you to come home IMO he misses you and you will find comfort there. I understand that your heart has hardened and so does He. Either way God Bless You and Your Children. I'm sure this is the last thing you wanted to hear but I felt the need to respond somehow.

[Red Ketchup]

For me it's simple... when you die, it's over... period.

There is no heaven, no salvation, no god nothing... you are put in a box and worms eat you. End of story.

I have a hard time understanding how people can believe in all those stories they call religion... believing in things written in a BOOK by MEN... boggles my mind... but hey... whatever rocks your boat is fine with me... just don't try to get me in your boat, and please don't "pray for me" or "feel sorry for me" for not sharing your beliefs.

Red

[Bryan2]

1victor I beleive in the Bible in its entirety not just the old testament.
Websters dictoinary describes hell as equal to the hebrew word sheol and greek word hades. The king kames version translated sheol 31 times as "hell" 31 times as "grave" and 3 times as "pit". King james version translated hades as hell each of the 10 times it occurs.If it translated into 3 different words and if means the common grave of mankind it could not at the same time be a place of fiery torture.the Hebrew word sheol and the greek word hades mean the same thing. look at Acts 2:31 in the christian greek scriptures and and Psalm 16:10 in the hebrew scriptures.Notice also that Jesus Christ was in hades or hell. So God tormented Christ in ahell of fire? NO Way!!!! He was simply in his grave. In all places where sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life,activity or torment. Rather it is often linked with death and inactivity.What about "hellfire and lake of fire" references then?
King james uses hell to translate Genhenna. Sheol and hades mean the grave but what about genhenna? In hebrew scriptures genhenna is the "valley Hinnom." Hinnom was the valley just outside the walls of jerusalem where the israealites sacrificed their children in the fire. In time King Joshiah banned the valley for such a horrible practice.(2kings 23:10) itwas turned into a huge garbage dump. During Jesus time genhenna was a garbage dump and fires were kept burning by adding brimstone to burn the garbage. So in (matthew 23:33) jerusalems people knew when he said "serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of genhenna?" It was clear he was using genhenna as a symbol of complete everlasting destruction and were not worthy of ressurection.
Lake of fire you ask? it means everlasting death, or destructin. Notice Revelation 20:14 :and death and hades were hurled into the lake of fire." Lake of fire means "second death."From which there is no resurection. Lake is a symbol because death and hell are thrown into it and you know they cant litterally be burned.But they can be done away with or destroyed.

Now What about heaven you ask?

The Bible states that only 144,000 actualy go to heaven to rule with Christ.(hebrews 12:22) (revelation 14:1, 3)




The Bible promises:"The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it" (psalm 37:29) Often the Bible tells of Gods arrangement to give humans who serve him everlasting life.-John 3:14-16, 36; Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 21:3, 4. Man was made for the earth,and the earth for man. (genesis 2:8,9, 15)

My beleief is that after this system of things is brought to an end (Armageddon) then a paradise earth.after armageddon no part of this wicked world will remain. only persons who serve god will continue to live (1 John 2:17) After armageddon Gods kingdom will be the only government ruling over the earth. Satan and his demons will be gone.(Revelation 20:1-3)

People were meant to live forever, and after this system of things is destroyed along with everyone that knowingly turned there back on God Then people will be brought to perfection on paradise earth And the Dead that never got a chance to know the real God will be ressurected back to life to be given a chance to decide if they want to devote there life to God, meanwhile satan is locked away in the "abyss." Now after this 1000 years that man is given to once again be perfected and Satan is released and once again gets his chance to see if any will turn there back on God now that they are perfect like Jesus Christ. Then once and for all Satan and all that chose to follow him will be destoyed forever.

[max2extreme]

I want to believe but I can't say that I do. What I find one of the most stupid things christains (any other religions) say is that the animal soul is mortal but the human soul is immortal. I think that's dumb.. if we have afterlife I believe monkeys and dogs and other mammals also have one. Are we not mammals? Did we not evolve from monkeys? What about the neanderdalsman?

I remember a story I heard by some christain from the TV. He was telling that story to strenghten the believe in afterlife.
He said when some man who his wife knew died his dog began barking at the exact time of death. The dog ran around barking seemingly following something invisible which the narrator interpreted was the soul.
The conclusion is Man has soul because his dog can see it... but according to Christain believes the dog hasn't one (STILL he can see it according to that christains story).


A dog would never see a soul if he hadn't one 'cause it wouln't mean anything to him. *********ary it wouldn't happen. Not that I believe dogs have immortal souls.. just pointing out another christian who preaches something which doesn't make sense even with his own believes.

But one of the main problems I have with believing in afterlife is : people are always dying .. so where can you get the space for all those dead people. There's always new people coming in but noone dies (unless the afterlife is some kind of reincarnation).

Also of course there's no proof for afterlife.


Sorn,
I dont know about animal souls. I never read anything about it so I cant speak to it. Until I do, I have to believe that all animals go to heaven just because I think all animals are born without sin. I dont know.. Just a thought. but as far as you talking about christians in the first paragraph and saying "did we not evolve from monkeys...", no. christians do not believe we evolved from monkeys. So whatever is said about animals' souls ( i dont know, you have any verses about this?) wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that we are mammals and animals are mammals because we believe we were put here as 'humans', not the scientific teachings that we evolved from monkeys.

[max2extreme]

My beliefs are a litle different from the mainstream Christianty.

1 I beleive that people were never meant to die.
death is only a result of sin Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10
"For the living know that they die; but the dead know not of any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
This means that the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything. They no longer have any thoughts, as the Bible states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish"(Psalm 146:3, 4)
At death mans spirit, his life-force which is sustained by by breathing, "goes out." It no longer exists. So mans senses of hearing, sight, touch, smell, and taste, which depend upon his being able to think, all stop working. According to the Bible, the dead enter a state of complete unconsciousness.
When they are dead, both humans and animals are in this same state of complete unconsciousness. Note how the Bible makes this point "As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust." ( Ecclesiates 3:19, 20) the "spirit" that makes animals live is the same as that which makes humans live. When this "spirit," or invisible life-force, goes out, both man and beast return to the dust from which they are made.

I dont think that is against mainstream christianity...well the first part. I dont believe man was supposed to die either. and not until adam ate the forbidden fruit did man begin to die. BUT, heh, since God is all knowing and all powerful, and has a plan, i guess he knew adam would eat the fruit, thus knowing his punishment, thus knowing man would die, thus....man was supposed to die. hehe. (thats just me thinking out loud.)

ps: what are you proving with your psalm quote??

-max

[max2extreme]

For me it's simple... when you die, it's over... period.

There is no heaven, no salvation, no god nothing... you are put in a box and worms eat you. End of story.

I have a hard time understanding how people can believe in all those stories they call religion... believing in things written in a BOOK by MEN... boggles my mind... but hey... whatever rocks your boat is fine with me... just don't try to get me in your boat, and please don't "pray for me" or "feel sorry for me" for not sharing your beliefs.

Red

Christians believe that the bible is the word of god, written by men, yes. but men that were influenced by God, thus making it written by God himself.

-max

[Tock]

Christians believe that the bible is the word of god, written by men, yes. but men that were influenced by God, thus making it written by God himself.

-max


Well, some Christians beleive that, mostly the ones who haven't spent lots of time studying the historicity of the primary souce documents and the history of the religion itself.
Ask the scholars and theologians of the Lutheran, United Church of Christ, United Methodist, Unitarian, and similar groups, and you'll hear a different tale . . . one of 4 versions of the Old Testament being combined into one around the time of the Maccabbees. Of changes made to the Hebrew faith around the 600 bc time period. Of a multitude of "authentic versions" of the scriptures up to 323 AD when they were voted on by a bunch of politicians, and that's how we got what we have today. And of the wildly different interpretations given to different passages over the centuries . . . oh ya, if the Inquisition could get their hands on these TV preachers, they'd burn 'em all for heresy. And everyone else along with 'em.

In the end, it's all a matter of opinion, anyway. You think the creator of the universe had a part of creating the Bible, but of course, you have no evidence to support that notion. I am just as certain that the Creator did not have anything to do with it, and I am without proof to support my opinion as well.
So you can worry about dodging Hell, and I'll keep on living my life in peace, and keep paying the rent and eating those inch thick steaks until we drop, and then you'll see that I was right all along . . . lol . . .
-Tock

[max2extreme]

Well, some Christians beleive that, mostly the ones who haven't spent lots of time studying the historicity of the primary souce documents and the history of the religion itself.
Ask the scholars and theologians of the Lutheran, United Church of Christ, United Methodist, Unitarian, and similar groups, and you'll hear a different tale . . . one of 4 versions of the Old Testament being combined into one around the time of the Maccabbees. Of changes made to the Hebrew faith around the 600 bc time period. Of a multitude of "authentic versions" of the scriptures up to 323 AD when they were voted on by a bunch of politicians, and that's how we got what we have today. And of the wildly different interpretations given to different passages over the centuries . . . oh ya, if the Inquisition could get their hands on these TV preachers, they'd burn 'em all for heresy. And everyone else along with 'em.

In the end, it's all a matter of opinion, anyway. You think the creator of the universe had a part of creating the Bible, but of course, you have no evidence to support that notion. I am just as certain that the Creator did not have anything to do with it, and I am without proof to support my opinion as well.
So you can worry about dodging Hell, and I'll keep on living my life in peace, and keep paying the rent and eating those inch thick steaks until we drop, and then you'll see that I was right all along . . . lol . . .
-Tock

Your first paragraph is just your opinion until you at least give me some kind of factual source that you got that from. I can say that I can ask scholars of all those groups too and find at least one that goes along with my views. If it cant be proven, its just some guys opinion.

Your second paragraph I can prove with verses from the bible that support God wrote the bible and thats its not something that christians made up just because God is more of a reliable source than man... If you can wait a day or 2, ill get those verses on here. I just got back in town and need to get to bed. You work on getting some support for what you said.

and i dont worry about dodging hell. I live in peace. I pay my rent. And i eat TONS of inch thick steaks. in case you were implying that christians dont do those things. heh

-max

[Tock]

Your first paragraph is just your opinion until you at least give me some kind of factual source that you got that from. I can say that I can ask scholars of all those groups too and find at least one that goes along with my views. If it cant be proven, its just some guys opinion.
There's lots of fundamentalist stuff around, but for the scholarly stuff, ya gotta dig around the dusty halls of academia and be ready for lots of 50-cent words. Their stuff is around, ya just gotta look for it.





I can prove with verses from the bible that support God wrote the bible

So, you're gonna tell me, "See right here, this verse in the Bible PROVES that the Bible is God's Word."
Ya, right.
I was born at night, but not last night.

-Tock

[Bryan2]

I dont think that is against mainstream christianity...well the first part. I dont believe man was supposed to die either. and not until adam ate the forbidden fruit did man begin to die. BUT, heh, since God is all knowing and all powerful, and has a plan, i guess he knew adam would eat the fruit, thus knowing his punishment, thus knowing man would die, thus....man was supposed to die. hehe. (thats just me thinking out loud.)

ps: what are you proving with your psalm quote??

-max

Yes God is all knowing but there is also the free will thing so basically he knows every possible outcome with every single desicion. He knew what would come about of adam and eve eating the fruit and he also knew of what would come if they did not eat it. But I think that saying he ultimatley knew that they would eat it would be contradictorty to free will considering we would be predestined to do it because he already knew we would.

The psalm quote was in reference to there not being an actual spirit form floating around after you die it ties into the ecclesiaties quote

[Badgerman]

Yes God is all knowing but there is also the free will thing so basically he knows every possible outcome with every single desicion. He knew what would come about of adam and eve eating the fruit and he also knew of what would come if they did not eat it. But I think that saying he ultimatley knew that they would eat it would be contradictorty to free will considering we would be predestined to do it because he already knew we would.

The psalm quote was in reference to there not being an actual spirit form floating around after you die it ties into the ecclesiaties quote

Only God has free will......it is impossible for man to choose good without God
We receive all from God.........even our good works are from God's predestination ........ he gave us our ability to do good (the Spirit).......... he gave us the physical body in order to do this good......... he gave us a place (the earth) to do good........ he gave us the physical energy to do good......... and he gave us a time of evil so that there could be good.......for without evil there could never have been good because evil and good are comparative qualities. There are SO many verses that make it clear God controls man's destiny....... that talking about "free will" is ludicrous......

[max2extreme]

Yes God is all knowing but there is also the free will thing so basically he knows every possible outcome with every single desicion. He knew what would come about of adam and eve eating the fruit and he also knew of what would come if they did not eat it. But I think that saying he ultimatley knew that they would eat it would be contradictorty to free will considering we would be predestined to do it because he already knew we would.

The psalm quote was in reference to there not being an actual spirit form floating around after you die it ties into the ecclesiaties quote


Its complicated. And I dont quite understand. We had a sermon about a month ago at church (that I unfortunatly missed), about how we are 'pre-chosen' for heaven and hell. I think that is different than 'free-will'. We have the free will to do whatever. Make mistakes. Do good. Do bad. But I THINK the bottom line is that even though we have this free will to do these things, eventually God knows, or selected, or however it is (ill send an email to my pastor for clarification) that we will make the choice in the end and enter heaven, or we will make the choice and not become christians and go to hell.

-max

[max2extreme]

There's lots of fundamentalist stuff around, but for the scholarly stuff, ya gotta dig around the dusty halls of academia and be ready for lots of 50-cent words. Their stuff is around, ya just gotta look for it.







So, you're gonna tell me, "See right here, this verse in the Bible PROVES that the Bible is God's Word."
Ya, right.
I was born at night, but not last night.

-Tock


No, Im not going to give you a verse that says 100% the bible is God's Word (I dont think...we'll see *smile*) but I will give you verses in the bible that support my opinion (and others') that the bible is God's word.

-max

[sorn]

Sorn,
I dont know about animal souls. I never read anything about it so I cant speak to it. Until I do, I have to believe that all animals go to heaven just because I think all animals are born without sin. I dont know.. Just a thought. but as far as you talking about christians in the first paragraph and saying "did we not evolve from monkeys...", no. christians do not believe we evolved from monkeys. So whatever is said about animals' souls ( i dont know, you have any verses about this?) wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that we are mammals and animals are mammals because we believe we were put here as 'humans', not the scientific teachings that we evolved from monkeys.

Actually Catholics accept the theory of *********. But I don't think there's any reference to animals not having soul in the bible. I think it's just something some theologicans or philosophers invented.

IMO it doesn't make sense to say we have "soul" 'cause we have "free will" but not animals. I believe free will is something very vague to define. I could say my dog has free will to choose between two different foods.. and I wouldn't be wrong. "Free will" is different thing for different people.

[Pale Horse]

To say that we have no free will is sooo wrong! We can do whatever we want whenever we want , society and God will have a say in the outcome but it is our choice. How can you say there is no free will? Do you believe that people that are rapists and murderers are born that way? Gimme a break.

[AnabolicBoy1981]

I hope not. If so, i'm going straight to hell for being such a slut.

[sorn]

No, even though they're choice isn't strictly done by free will, they still choose so to some extent.

But I ask you: Was my cat who killed rabbits (and ate only their brains!) born a killer?

[MMC78]

To say that we have no free will is sooo wrong! We can do whatever we want whenever we want , society and God will have a say in the outcome but it is our choice. How can you say there is no free will? Do you believe that people that are rapists and murderers are born that way? Gimme a break.

Study physics.

[geoneo]

Good question. I like the way everybody respects each others ideals. I dont think there is life after death, especially as a med student, and taking all those biology courses (spend 10 secs in childrens ward and you see what i mean). Its funny though alot of my christian friends say I am going to hell because I dont believe in jesus and so forth but then i think of all the volunteer work i do (because i like it) and that they dont do, then i think to myself god must be really crazy to send me to hell for helping others. I just think all religion was created to give man dis