Pheedno's PCT

[Pheedno]

My post cycle therapy consists of a three compound administration which is designed so that there is a primary and secondary LH stimulator which both are maximizing potential early in the duration; with the primary being phased out in extended protocol. With the addition of an Aromatase Inhibitor, which makes the above possible, the individual will also endure less of an increase in Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, which allows free testosterone levels to reach base line at a much quicker pace. The individual will also see less of a problem in most cases with sexual libido as the bounding SHBG is controlled(to an extent). Below you will find my suggested bare minimum, as well as a sample of an extended protocol. Extended PCT protcol is cycle length dependant so the below is not the standard for all cycles


PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

Extended protocol sample for a 12+ month cycle:
Day 1-15_ .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 16-45_.25mg L-dex + 75mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 46-65_.25mg L-dex + 20mg Nolva
Day 66-80_.25mg L-dex

Now IMO, selective estrogen receptor modulators(SERMs) such as Clomiphine and Tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too. Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary, while Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotrophin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:

1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux
occured PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
2. If your running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and L-dex

Arimidex(or L-dex)
Estrogen is the main inhibitence of restoring HPTA, and AI administration has been shown to increase gonadotrophin concentrations and serum Testosterone by up to 50%. In addition, by adding L-dex, the inhibitence of excess estrogen allows Tamox to work greater at LH stimulation in the begining stages of PCT, since the need to prevent binding in the mammery is lessened by the reduction in estrogen biosynthesis

[Pheedno]

Tamox vs Clomid

Am J Physiol 1983 Feb;240(2):E125-30

Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro.

Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS.

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

__________________________________________________
_________

Br J Pharmacol 1978 Apr;62(4):487-93

Differential depletion of cytoplasmic high affinity oestrogen receptors after the in vivo administration of the antioestrogens, clomiphene, MER-25 and tamoxifen.

Kurl RN, Morris ID.

1 The in vivo actions of the oestrogen antagonists, MER-25 and tamoxifen upon the cytosol oestrogen receptors prepared from amygdala, hypothalamus, pituitary and uterus of rats were studied 24 h after drug administration. 2 There was a dose-related depletion of cytosol oestrogen receptors. However, the uterine and pituitary receptors were consistently affected at a lower dose than were those from the brain. 3 The ratios of the combined central ED50 to the combined peripheral ED50 were clomiphene 169 greater than MER-25 19.2 greater than tamoxifen 2.13. 4 The receptor changes were not related to biological activity monitored by serum luteinizing hormone levels and uterotrophic response. 5 The possible role of these drug effects in the induction of ovulation and future developments are discussed.

__________________________________________________
__________

the following study was not available in my library, so i wasn't able to obtain the article or abstract. it may have to be purchased, so if someone is interested, here's the title and authors of the research.

Nippon Funin Gakkai Zasshi 1978 Oct;23(4):398-404

[The hormonal dynamics picture of tamoxifen treatment cases, in comparison of clomid treatment cases]

__________________________________________________
_______

Cochrane Database Syst Rev 2000;(2):CD000151

Clomiphene or tamoxifen for idiopathic oligo/asthenospermia.

Vandekerckhove P, Lilford R, Vail A, Hughes E.

Institute of Epidemiology, University of Leeds, 34 Hyde Terrace, Leeds, Yorkshire, UK, LS2 9LN.

[Pheedno]

Case for Clomid

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985 Nov;61(5):842-5

Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.

Winters SJ, Troen P.

To examine the mechanism by which endogenous estrogens inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men, blood samples were drawn every 10 min for 12 h in five men before and at the completion of 3 weeks of treatment with the estrogen antagonist clomiphene citrate (50 mg twice daily). Samples were analyzed for LH and alpha-subunit by RIA. Clomiphene produced a 3-fold rise in circulating LH levels, which was associated with a 80% increase in pulse frequency and a 70% increase in pulse amplitude. Immunoreactive alpha-subunit secretion was also pulsatile before and after clomiphene treatment. Mean alpha-levels rose 70%, together with a 39% increase in pulse frequency and a 41% increase in pulse amplitude. Circulating testosterone and estradiol levels increased 2-fold and FSH levels increased 3-fold after clomiphene treatment. Insofar as each LH and uncombined alpha-subunit pulse reflects a LHRH secretory episode, our data indicate that endogenous estrogens tonically restrain the hypothalamic release of LHRH. From these results and those of previous studies, we conclude that estrogens as well as androgens are important in the testicular feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic oscillator that governs pulsatile gonadotropin secretion.


J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63

The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men.

Tenover JS, Bremner WJ.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.

Serum androgens decline with age in normal men, despite normal or elevated bioactive serum gonadotropins, suggesting that primary testicular dysfunction occurs with aging. The authors further assessed the question of age-related testicular dysfunction by evaluating whether raising serum gonadotropins above the normal serum range for an extended time in healthy elderly men might result in bringing their gonadal function to a level similar to that found in young adult men. Five elderly (65 to 85 years old) and five young adult men (26 to 33 years old) were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) twice a day for 8 weeks to stimulate gonadotropin production. During that time, testosterone (T), non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound T, and estradiol increased significantly in both age groups, while serum inhibin increased significantly only in the young adult men. The increases in serum androgens with CC administration were significantly greater in the young adult men than in the elderly men. These hormone changes occurred in the setting of serum gonadotropins that increased significantly in both age groups, although there was a tendency for the elderly men to have a smaller increase in luteinizing hormone. Despite 8 weeks of stimulation of the pituitary-gonadal axis by CC administration, the elderly men demonstrated significantly diminished testicular responses compared with the young adult men. Sertoli cell function, as determined by inhibin production, was more diminished in the elderly men than was Leydig cell function. These data strengthen the hypothesis that normal aging in men is accompanied by a decline in testicular function.


Urology 1991 Oct;38(4):317-22

Possible hypothalamic impotence. Male counterpart to hypothalamic amenorrhea?

Guay AT, Bansal S, Hodge MB.

Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic Medical Center, Burlington, Massachusetts.

Twenty-one men with erectile complaints who were found to have a low level of serum testosterone without a reciprocal elevation of the serum levels of luteinizing hormone were evaluated to identify whether the defect was of hypothalamic or of pituitary origin. Patients underwent a luteinizing hormone (LH)-follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)-releasing hormone stimulation test that showed a normal but sluggish increase in LH and FSH levels, thus ruling out a pituitary defect and suggesting a suprapituitary abnormality. This was confirmed when, in response to clomiphene, patients had a normal increase in gonadotropin and testosterone levels. Although the basal as well as clomiphene and gonadotropin releasing hormone-stimulated levels of total testosterone and gonadotropins were identical in men less than and more than fifty years old, the elevation of free testosterone levels in response to clomiphene was higher in patients younger than fifty. This suggested that although the primary abnormality found in these patients is altered secretion of gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, an age-related decline in the responsivity of Leydig cells to LH may make it more manifest in older patients. Elevation of testosterone levels from a subnormal to a normal range in response to clomiphene administered for seven days suggests that the defect is functional and reversible and that the drug may be useful in treatment of sexual dysfunction in this group of patients.
Nephron 1993;63(4):390-4

Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.

Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.

Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the

[Pheedno]

Tamoxifen

nolvadex aka tamoxifen studies:

Arch Gynecol Obstet 1993;252(3):143-7

Tamoxifen treatment of oligozoospermia: a re-evaluation of its effects including additional sperm function tests.

Sterzik K, Rosenbusch B, Mogck J, Heyden M, Lichtenberger K.

Abteilung Frauenheilkunde, Geburtshilfe der Universitat, Ulm, Germany.

Because of previous contradictory results, we reevaluated the effects of tamoxifen on 29 men presenting with idiopathic oligozoospermia. To determine whether a possible increase in sperm concentration might be correlated with an improvement of sperm quality, the hamster ovum penetration (HOP) test and the hypo-osmotic swelling (HOS) test were included as additional tests of sperm function. Patients were treated with tamoxifen (20 mg/day) for 3 months. From 4 weeks until the end of the study, tamoxifen had no significant effect (P > 0.05) on blood levels of luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone (T), or estradiol (E2). There was no significant improvement (P > 0.05) of conventional semen parameters (volume, concentration, motility, morphology), and of HOP and HOS test results. The lack of correlation between a rise in hormone levels and improvement of sperm quality suggests that tamoxifen is of questionable value in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.


Asian J Androl 2001 Jun;3(2):115-9

Effect of intermittent treatment with tamoxifen on reproduction in male rats.

Gill-Sharma MK, Balasinor N, Parte P.

Department of Neuroendocrinology, Institute for Research in Reproduction, ICMR, Parel, Mumbai, India. dirirr@vsnl.com

AIM: To identify the antifertility effect of intermittent oral administration of tamoxifen in male rat. METHODS: Tamoxifen was administered orally at a dose of 0.4 mg x kg(-1) x d(-1) with an intermittent regime for 120 days. Treated and control rats were mated with cycling female rats on days 60, 90 and 120 of treatment. The mated males were sacrificed and the weights of reproductive organs were recorded, and the serum levels of LH, FSH, testosterone and estradiol estimated by radioimmunoassay. In the female rats, the numbers of implantation sites, corpora lutea, and numbers of normal and resorbed foetuses were recorded on d 21 of gestation. The potency, fecundity, fertility index, litter size and post-implantation loss were then calculated. RESULTS: The fecundity of male rats was completely suppressed by tamoxifen while the potency was maintained at the control level. The fertility index was significantly decreased. No viable litters were sired. Post implantation loss, indicative of non-viable embryos, was observed but was not significantly increased above the control level. The weights of the testes, epididymides, ventral prostate and seminal vesicles were significantly reduced. The blood LH and testosterone levels were significantly decreased, but not FSH and estradiol. CONCLUSION: Intermittent oral tamoxifen administration completely suppressed the fecundity of adult male rats with reserved potency.

[Pheedno]

Case study showing benefit to FSH, LH, and testosterone from tamox- Notice administration duration

Treatment of idiopathic and post varicocelectomy oligozoospermia with oral tamoxifen citrate.
BJU Int 1999 Apr; 83: 646-8
Kadioglu TC Köksal IT Tunç M Nane I Tellaloglu S

[see related articles]

PrintEmail
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Affiliation
Department of Urology, Faculty of Medicine, Istanbul University, Istanbul, Turkey.

Abstract
OBJECTIVE: To identify a subgroup of men who may benefit from tamoxifen citrate (a widely prescribed drug for male infertility) among those with normogonadotrophic and hypergonadotrophic oligozoospermia, either idiopathic or after varicocelectomy. PATIENTS AND METHODS: The study included infertile men with oligozoospermia, 136 referred to our outpatient clinic and 84 infertile after varicocelectomy. All patients received tamoxifen citrate (10 mg twice daily); semen analysis and hormone tests were repeated at the end of 3 and 6 months of treatment, the values being compared with those before treatment. RESULTS : The levels of follicle-stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone and testosterone increased in all groups receiving tamoxifen citrate. Normogonadotrophic patients had a significant increase in sperm count and concentration, while the slight increase detected in the hypergonadotrophic group was statistically insignificant. CONCLUSION: In patients with normogonadotrophic oligozoospermia, tamoxifen citrate may be offered as a practical and economic alternative before using any assisted reproduction techniques. However, double-blind placebo-controlled trials are needed to confirm the findings of this preliminary study.

[Pheedno]

Study between tamox administration and placebo- attention to highlighted

Int J Androl. 1992 Feb;15(1):14-8. Related Articles, Links


Comment in:
Int J Androl. 1992 Dec;15(6):507-8.

Treatment of idiopathic oligozoospermia with tamoxifen--a randomized controlled study.

Krause W, Holland-Moritz H, Schramm P.

Department of Andrology, Philipps-Universitat, Marburg, Germany.

There is no conclusive evidence of the usefulness of tamoxifen in the treatment of idiopathic oligozoospermia (OAT-syndrome), as it has been used mostly in uncontrolled studies. We herein report on the controlled treatment of OAT-syndrome with tamoxifen versus placebo following a randomized design. Seventy-six men with sperm counts of 2-20 x 10(6) ml-1, sperm motility of 20-50%, and sperm morphology (abnormal cells) between 50 and 80% were involved in the study. Patients with varicocele, a history of testicular maldescent or genital inflammation were excluded. Thirty-nine patients received tamoxifen (30 mg daily), 37 patients placebo. There was a statistically significant increase in the mean serum testosterone level after treatment in the tamoxifen-treated group (from 4.9 +/- 1.9 to 7.9 +/- 3.6 ng ml-1) in comparison to the placebo group (5.3 +/- 2.0 and 5.6 +/- 2.0 ng ml-1). Serum FSH levels increased slightly in the tamoxifen group (from 6.8 +/- 4.1 to 7.3 +/- 4.8 mU ml-1), but this was not statistically significant in comparison to the placebo group (from 5.9 +/- 3.9 to 5.2 +/- 3.5 mU ml-1). Serum levels of LH did not show any differences between groups. The sperm count increased during treatment from 9.3 +/- 11.7 to 11.4 +/- 13.7 x 10(6) ml-1 in the tamoxifen group and from 9.1 +/- 7.1 to 9.3 +/- 8.8 x 10(6) ml-1 in the placebo group; this difference did not reach statistical significance. The percentage of motile and abnormal sperm was not different between the two treatment groups.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)

[Pheedno]

Study on benefit of tamox-again pay attention to duration. Also notice levels were checked at 2wks-12wks, but it is not specified when increased levels of FSH, LH, and T were seen at maximized effect. Levels of T and FSH are only significant, with T at miniscuel proportions

Fertil Steril. 1983 May;39(5):700-3. Related Articles, Links


Increased sperm count in 25 cases of idiopathic normogonadotropic oligospermia following treatment with tamoxifen.

Buvat J, Ardaens K, Lemaire A, Gauthier A, Gasnault JP, Buvat-Herbaut M.

Twenty-five subfertile men, all presenting with idiopathic normogonadotropic oligospermia, were treated with tamoxifen (20 mg/day) for 4 to 12 months. Semen analysis was performed twice before treatment and at least twice after 3 to 12 months of treatment. In 14 patients, serum luteinizing hormone (LH), serum follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), and plasma testosterone (T) were assayed before treatment, then again after 2 weeks and 12 weeks of treatment. Semen volume, sperm motility, and sperm morphologic characteristics were not modified by tamoxifen. Conversely, a twofold increase of both the mean sperm concentration and the mean total sperm count per ejaculate was observed during treatment (P less than 0.001). Mean values of T, LH, and FSH increased during treatment, but the difference was only significant for T (P less than 0.001) and FSH (P less than 0.05). Ten pregnancies (40% of cases) were reported during the 161 months of treatment.

[powerlifter]

Super Post Bro - comprehensive with studies to back it up - Pheendno as always " Well Done "

[KINGKONG]

Ive been reading on AR for a couple of years and if I was going to listen to anyone
it would have to be pheedno
Thanks for the posts they look like they took time and research to put together!

[einstein1905]

This is excellent. Well thought out and well explained. It doesn't "ignore" studies because they don't happen to support the overall conclusion. You'll get people that'll say "clomid only" or nolva only" works for me just fine, or "I don't use Ldex, and I recover fine". Fine relative to what? Everything is clearly explained here. You want your endogenous test production back as soon as possible. He's laid out the most efficient way currently known to do so. You work hard during your cycle to make gains....you owe it to yourself to take the appropriate steps to keep them too.

[Rickson]

One of the best post I have read in a long time. Excellent Pheedno thanks for the great input. I agree with everything and think you have given great backup literature as to why clomid and nolva don't do the same things exactly in PCT.

[TheMudMan]

I read your post on this on another board and I think this is one the better posts I have read in awhile. Hopefully a lot of the newer guys will read this so they can understand the importance of both compounds in PCT.

Thanks Pheedno

[TheMudMan]

I read your post on this on another board and I think this is one the better posts I have read in awhile. Hopefully a lot of the newer guys will read this so they can understand the importance of both compounds in PCT.

Thanks Pheedno

[whiteyk]

awesome post

[PurePower]

Excellent. Thanks bro.

[Johnny Boy]

I don't want to come off as a tool, but does that mean that the typical 300/100/50 clomid does should be thrown out the window?

[Pheedno]

I don't want to come off as a tool, but does that mean that the typical 300/100/50 clomid does should be thrown out the window?

No, the above is a personal preferance and recommendation, but L-dex and nolva should accompany that clomid administration if one chooses to do run it like that.
Now, the 300mg frontload I can see as a feasible practice, as it will allow you to reach steady state at a faster pace. Personally, 300mg even for only one day produces tracers and blurred vision in a dramatic effect which is not bearable; my sensitivity to the occulotoxicity is very apparent. I'm not sure if my lasik surgery has anythng to do with that or not, but because of it, I started using 100mg. Even with the 300mg frontload though, I'd run 100mg consistantly for the duration of PCT

[razor67]

once again...excellent post.. :bow1: :bow1: :bow1:

[Kingkasino]

Gotta say it, **** fine post. I just learned a lot. Thanks Pheedno!!

:bow1:

KK

[Da Bull]

I feel like one of the sheep here,but this was the best post I've read in quite some time.Thanks for sharing Pheedno!!

[groverman1]

Baaaaahhhh, me too, great post brother!!!

[barbarian]

nice man good post!!!!

[FRANK WHITE]

Great post Pheedno!

[Demon Deacon]

This will deff. be helpful later on

[toolman]

How do you make this one sticky. Solid as always pheedno!!!

[dieseL atC]

In short, simple terms - what exactly is this saying? :) I don't understand all those 40 letter words ;)

[Money Boss Hustla]

Pheedno...as I said before...you are a scientist! You are my mentor!

[Money Boss Hustla]

Pheedno...please make this a sticky. Great freakin' post!


FYI to help others...

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) Compounds that bind with estrogen receptors and exhibit estrogen action in some tissues and anti-estrogen action in other tissues. The ideal SERM would deliver all the benefits of estrogen without the adverse effects. ex: Clomiphene Citrate (Marketed as Clomid or Serophene). Tamoxifen (Marketed as Nolvadex).


Aromatise Inhibitor (AI) Aromatase inhibitors exhibit a very different mechanism of action than SERM’s. Aromatase inhibitors prevent the conversion of androgens into estrogen in fat, muscle, breast, and brain. ex: Anastrazole (brand name Arimidex). FEMARA (letrozole tablets).
[/url]

Above was taken from LMR's post
[url="http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=94545"]http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=94545 (http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=94545)

[UrbanDawg]

I agree with everyting you said bro .. so.... put me down as co-author :)

seriously tho ..great work and.... thanks for another chance to up my post count in applause of greatness

[2timer]

will do! since I am a nice guy!

[mrmanners]

I just wanted to let you know I apprechiated your post.

See you around, perhaps in a world where nothing, is what it seems to be...

MrM

[Money Boss Hustla]

does nolvedex have any effect water? I am doing a all test prop cycle and I was wondering is nolvedex enough or I need liquadex! please answer this I have got ten different opinions and I still don't the right answer!
Don't hijack this awesome post! Please post your own thread with that question.

[2timer]

see you do good deeds and nobody cares! money_boss_husta---directed to you!

[Swellin]

This was the best post I have seen concerning this subject. Combine it with LMR's post and you have the "All you ever wanted to know about SERMs & AIs."

[usualsuspect]

Great post. Just got added to my favorites folder.

[Mr. Sparkle]

Wow that was really informative. thanks bro!

[Taejoon]

My last PCT I ran 20mg Nolva and 100mg of clomid for 30 days on Pheed's advice. It was a 16 week cycle, and I kept 23 of the 27 pounds I gained while I was cycling. Next time through I'm gonna throw some L-dex in there and hopefully keep even more of my gains....

Great post Pheed, excellent medical data to back it as well.

Peace

-Taejoon

[symatech]

so are these the studies you said you'd pm me a while back? ;)

definately a great read pheedno. thanks for taking the time to put this together.

[bigcut77]

Great post. Makes sense to me just based of my personal expierience on my current PCT. Just started my pct and began with 300mg clomid, 25 nolva, and .25 l-dex. I would have to say the clomid really f***** me up at that dose. Vision was really off the wall. I have been running the same combo for a few weeks at 100mg a day clomid and feel great. No depression or blurred vision. Still feel strong with just less water retention. Thanks Pheedno,

[Pheedno]

so are these the studies you said you'd pm me a while back? ;)

definately a great read pheedno. thanks for taking the time to put this together.

Crap bro, I apologize. Got caught up in other things and just plain forgot. I'll make a note and PM you that info


To everyone.....Thank you for the compliments.

[Diesel]

Great post bro.

It is stick worthy IMO. :D

D

[Mallet]

Very well documented my friend!...this is a great read before starting a first cycle!

[craneboy]

super post bro, i'll have to read it several times! ALOT of info

[symatech]

Crap bro, I apologize. Got caught up in other things and just plain forgot. I'll make a note and PM you that info


To everyone.....Thank you for the compliments.lol no problem. I figured you were probably a busy man.

[craneboy]

thanks for the great post.

[monstercojones]

just wanted to give big props to PHEEDNO for a kick ass thread that really gives a plethora of valuable information.

thanks for the informative post Pheed. you're the man, as always. :)

[juiceinthehood]

thanks for the info

[Blown_SC]

Thanks bro..
Everyone here appreciates the time and effort you put forth... :bcool:

[dvest8]

Pheedno thnx Bro,just added it to my favorites folder as well as printed it for safe keeping & future refrences.BIGG UPS ON YOUR POST!!!!!!!!!!!

[BASK8KACE]

Excellent post, Pheedno. Thanks for the information.

Bump (for me to find again....eventhough it's already a sticky).

xxample

[hatchblack]

Great post Pheendo.

One question...If I do not have an apparent occular toxicity reaction to clomid, would you recommend running it at say 200 mgs for the first couple of days and then reducing dosing to the 100 mg level for the remainder of the 30 + days. You mentioned that the higher dosages, if well tolerated, got your levels more stabilized more quickly.

[kingofmasters]

Very good post!
I have read a lot of studies on the matter and I have to say you picked out the ones which conclusion should help us most in practice; Great job!

But as to me being a Letro fan instead of Arimidex:
Nolva decreases Letro bloodplasma levels.
So it is a matter of balance between this SERM and that AI.

So what would be a good balance in dose for the two during PCT?

1 mg Letrozole + 20 mg Nolvadex ED?
1 mg Letrozole + 10 mg Nolvadex ED?
2 mg Letrozole + 20 mg Nolvadex ED?

Greets
Kingofmasters

[hatchblack]

Very good post!
I have read a lot of studies on the matter and I have to say you picked out the ones which conclusion should help us most in practice; Great job!

But as to me being a Letro fan instead of Arimidex:
Nolva decreases Letro bloodplasma levels.
So it is a matter of balance between this SERM and that AI.

So what would be a good balance in dose for the two during PCT?

1 mg Letrozole + 20 mg Nolvadex ED?
1 mg Letrozole + 10 mg Nolvadex ED?
2 mg Letrozole + 20 mg Nolvadex ED?

Greets
Kingofmasters

I have the same question as well within in regards to Nolvadex reducing L-Dex and L-Femara decreasing plasma levels so would that warrant an increasing dose of L-Dex or L-Femara....? :unsure:

[styles-money]

Excellent post. It just convinced me to use both Clomid and Nolva in my PCT.

I want to know what Pheedno's thoughts are on HCG?

[Caribé]

Excellent post. It just convinced me to use both Clomid and Nolva in my PCT.

I want to know what Pheedno's thoughts are on HCG?


Mee to!!!! Pheedno's, can you help us?

Tks a lot.

[Bolo6]

very good thread,thanks

[Physical_Specimen]

I agree with everyone's positive feedback ;), this is going in the archive

[dutchguru]

perfect post!!
thanks this will help me in the future a lot.

[bonds315]

Just read this post for the first time. Excellent! Cant wait to start my pct just to see how much of my gains I will keep. But i have done so much reading on HCG. Then what is the use for it? Is it even needed if you follow this protocol, using ldex, nolva, and clomid?

[LimitsAreNothing]

EVERYONE USING OR CONSIDERING USING NEEDS TO READ THIS!!! This is great FACTUAL information. Thanks Pheedno

[Jeff Almeyda]

Awesome post man!

I was wondering: Is either injectable formestane or letrozole (Femara) an acceptable substitute for l-dex in the PCT? I have both.

Author L.Rea and HMGears website say that Formestane is the best. According to them, it continually raised HPTA even when used for 22 straight weeks! Others, (e.g. Gaspari Nutrition) say that it is too anabolic and androgenic and can actually decrease HPTA when used post-cycle. Which is the real deal?

I have also heard that nolva reduces blood plasma levels of Letrozole. Would a modification of either the letro or nolva dose address that potential problem?

So which one is better for PCT?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[alexvega]

hey bro , im a new, i take a look , not read all, but , i saw the inf, it´s very important, i went to medical school i know how this is,. but not all, in practice. thanks for the inf.

[NootroidBeast]

This post has become my homepage!

Is exemestane (Aromasin) an acceptable substitute for L-dex in the PCT?

Similar to Formestane, I've read Aromasin is the ingestable form of this injectible. So, I'm also wondering if they'll help or hurt PCT.

[dynamike]

Amazing ...detailed post Pheedno..Much of it is honestly above my comprehension...but I understand more everytime i read it...and now know when and how much to administer for my PCT...I didnt work this hard to give it all back!!!...Thanks!!..be curious to read some of your cycles...

[Dimes]

Awesome post !

[Beefkake31]

Why do some people say stop my Arimidex at week 12 ( which is when my cycle ends)? But on this sticky pheedno says use armidex days 1-30 post cycle which will be weeks 14-17 for me. Anyone? :unsure:

[davinci191]

pheedno, this is what im about to run. 500mg of sust250 on day 1
then 250mg of sust every 3 days

Winny i'm going to start right away in week 1 and take 30-50mg every day and 2 weeks past the last shot of Sust250
Clomid i'm going to start 2 weeks after last sust250 shot and run 600mg on day 1 in 6 x 50mg doses and then 50mg day for 4-6 weeks....nolvadex all the way through the cycle at 20mg per day.

this will be my first real cycle do you think i still need the L-dex? and your thoughts on the way i will use the nolva and clomid.

[Blown_SC]

^^Start a new thread in the PCT forum.........

[LACBodybuilder]

An excellent and very educational post. Should be the basis for almost everyones PCT.

[Thegr8One]

sweet as usual

[buffedude]

Great post. I have been away from this Board for some time and I'm glad I'm back. Just a couple of recommendations and I'm curious about Pheedno's response.

If an aromatase inhibitor is to be used it is best to use an irreversible steroidal activator such as exemestane. Althouth there's some controversy in the literature (when isn't there any?) Arimidex is generally felt not to be friendly to the lipid profile at all. Unlike exemestane the reversible nonsteroidal imidazole-based inhibitors (such as anastrozole, letrozole) can have detrimental effects on the lipid priofile and bone density.
Also, how about adding low dose HCG (ie 250-500IU 2-3 times a week) during the cycle to optimize responsiveness of the old gonads to the PCT?





References

Some studies favoring exemestane vs arimidex or letrozole:
Campos , Aromatase inhibitors for breast cancer in postmenopausal women. Oncologist. 2004;9(2):126-36.

Mortimer JE, Urban JH., Long-term toxicities of selective estrogen-receptor modulators and antiaromatase agents. Oncology (Huntingt). 2003 May;17(5):652-9; discussion 659, 662, 666 passim.

Some studies indicating neutral efefct of arimidex on lipid profile:
Buzdar AU, Robertson JF, Eiermann W, Nabholtz JM. An overview of the pharmacology and pharmacokinetics of the newer generation aromatase inhibitors anastrozole, letrozole, and exemestane. Cancer. 2002 Nov 1;95(9):2006-16. Cancer. 2002 Nov 1;95(9):2006-16.

Dougherty RH, Rohrer JL, Hayden D, Rubin SD, Leder BZ.Effect of aromatase inhibition on lipids and inflammatory markers of cardiovascular disease in elderly men with low testosterone levels. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2005 Feb;62(2):228-35.

[AshtonUK]

My post cycle therapy consists of a three compound administration which is designed so that there is a primary and secondary LH stimulator which both are maximizing potential early in the duration; with the primary being phased out in extended protocol. With the addition of an Aromatase Inhibitor, which makes the above possible, the individual will also endure less of an increase in Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, which allows free testosterone levels to reach base line at a much quicker pace. The individual will also see less of a problem in most cases with sexual libido as the bounding SHBG is controlled(to an extent). Below you will find my suggested bare minimum, as well as a sample of an extended protocol. Extended PCT protcol is cycle length dependant so the below is not the standard for all cycles


PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

Extended protocol sample for a 12+ month cycle:
Day 1-15_ .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 16-45_.25mg L-dex + 75mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva
Day 46-65_.25mg L-dex + 20mg Nolva
Day 66-80_.25mg L-dex

Now IMO, selective estrogen receptor modulators(SERMs) such as Clomiphine and Tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too. Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary, while Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotrophin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:

1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux
occured PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
2. If your running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and L-dex

Arimidex(or L-dex)
Estrogen is the main inhibitence of restoring HPTA, and AI administration has been shown to increase gonadotrophin concentrations and serum Testosterone by up to 50%. In addition, by adding L-dex, the inhibitence of excess estrogen allows Tamox to work greater at LH stimulation in the begining stages of PCT, since the need to prevent binding in the mammery is lessened by the reduction in estrogen biosynthesis

Qoutes from william llewlyn's nolva vs clomid article;

Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid)

Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time

The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=130625

Does this mean that clomid causes permenant desensitization at the pituitary to GnRH? also does this mean that nolva is more efficient at bringing testosterone levels up to baseline than clomid?

[superfat73]

informative

[Latino~Heat]

even today is really good information...would like to see pheedno's post on Proviron..
L~H

[KBZ]

Hey i was wondering, I just did my 2 weeks of clomid, so now I'm gonna continue with nolva, but I never used armidex, is it too late to incorporate it for it's anti-aromasant properties, or should I go ahead and get some?

[hurricane1]

People can laugh when they after reading my question, but is there any worthwhile over the counter anti-aromotase products? I.E. "post cycle therapy" by anabolic extreme (they came out with superdrol, so i figuire they are somewhat credible)

[jabez]

great information. you surely did some extensive research.

i was just wondering, however, when taking this mixture of chemicals; should they all be taken at the same time?

[x_moe]

great information. you surely did some extensive research.

i was just wondering, however, when taking this mixture of chemicals; should they all be taken at the same time?

it doesnt matter, they can be taken alone or together.

[NeverSummer29]

PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

Pheedno, or anyone else reading, My cycle is going consist of TEST E for a 10week cycle. I'm wondering what else you suggest running during the cycle? I figured 10mg's of Novla daily for weeks 1-10 while I run Test E would be sufficient. Any other suggestions?

And when exactly would I start my PCT? Week 12 or 13, or should I start immediatly after stopping Test?

Info would be appreciated! Thanks

[contagius]

Hey. I am Running:
Week 1-10 1.5 ml Andropen 275 and 300 mg of deca
Week 1-4 40 mg/day Dbol
Week 7-10 100 mg/day Winstrol
Week 1-10 0.5 mg/day Arimidex

I have HCG, Nolvadex, clomid and Arimidex available for PCT. I am just not sure how to run it.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thank.

[jnm]

nice post pheedno, thanks. First i read that clomid and nolvadex compete for the same transporters, and only one of them is needed, preferably nolvadex because of the lesser side effects, now i'm reading that both should be taken. Also read that arimedex (L dex) being taken with nolvadex would lower blood plasma levels of it, so it shouldn't be taken with nolva, but rather during cycle, and instead using a type I suicide A.I. like Aromasin during pct.

It seems like the more i read the less i know, and what scares me is how people on here are soo anxious to start cycle and dont do enough reading, and sometimes ask for pct help while on cycle! Please guys research research before cycle. Good Sticky.

[Wavelover]

Does arimidex reduces nolva strength when taken together ?

[Wavelover]

I,m sorry I mean Nolva reduce arimidex strength when taken together.

[IMBIGRU]

ok//... what about using Letrozole unstead of armidex ?? I already have a bunch of Letrozole

[HDdynaman]

I know Im a newbie but this has answered a ton of questions. Awesome job and thanks.

[Artiom]

cool thread.just nowhere I can find how exactly to use it.ar-r site comes a bottle with spray.so 1 squirt from it is like 1mg or what's the deal?and do u just keep it in your mouth or drink it?

[fibpro]

Thanks a lot for great info!

[Scarface69]

anyone have tried Pheednos PCT and got good results??

[jelly]

Just something I found.. May or may not be relevant..

"ARIMIDEX should not be taken with tamoxifen or estrogen-containing therapies"

http://www.arimidex-us.com/index.aspx


"At a median follow-up of 33 months, the combination of ARIMIDEX and tamoxifen did not demonstrate any efficacy benefit when compared with tamoxifen in all patients as well as in the hormone receptor-positive subpopulation. This treatment arm was discontinued from the trial. Based on clinical and pharmacokinetic results from the ATAC trial, tamoxifen should not be administrated with anastrozole."

It further states that,

"Co-administration of anastrozole and tamoxifen resulted in a reduction of anastrozole plasma levels by 27% compared with those achieved with anastozole alone. Estrogen containing therapies should not be used with ARIMIDEX as they may diminish pharmacologic action."

http://www1.astrazeneca-us.com/pi/arimidex.pdf


In my opinion Aromasin should be used instead of Arimidex (L-dex), the major problems being it's super expensive price and unavailability to the non-prescribed users..

[jelly]

Ahh... nevermind.... found this...

What your reading is for post-menopausal women with early-stage, hormone-receptor-positive disease.

That information came from the ATAC Trial...... where a study was conducted to show the effectivness of Arimidex alone, Nolvadex alone, and Arimidex and Nolvadex together. The study showed that Arimidex worked best with out Nolva, and Arimidex was also beter then using Nolvadex alone.

What we use it for is to block the conversion of test to estogen with Arimidex. Nolva will keep receptors clear of any estrogen trying to bind to them. Nolva also mimics estrogen in the liver which will help in keeping lipids stable.

[musclespawn]

can a clomid and Nolva PCT suffice for a PCT.. These are the only ones I can get my hands to..

[Lion_UK]

Hi Pheedno,

I was referred to your post on PCT by T-MOS who has advised me to use Test E and Winny for 12 weeks. This was based on the information I have posted about myself which includes my goals, training regime etc. How long after I had my last shot of Test E and Winny should I start the PCT you have described in your first post.

PCT for cycles 8-16wks:
Day 1-30- .25mg L-dex + 100mg Clomid + 20mg Nolva

Thank you.

[honkyace85]

This is very well researched and not over my head so this will definitely be part of my gameplan. It's not often you see that much research put into a post (cited and all). AWESOME!

[mgern527]

Read the thread...Nice good info for a noob like myself:).

[tembe]

thanks alot

i am about to start my first cycle and this really helped

[vengence00]

has anybody used this pct method? I pm'd the original poster and didn't get an answer. I'm planing on running a test c, eq, dbol, masteron cycle

dbol wk 1-4
test c 250mg twice a week wk 1-14
eq 200mg twice a week wk 1-14
masteron 300mg a wekk wk7-14

was wondering if this pct is the best route to go.

[vengence00]

:scratch:

[rookie builder]

It cant be said enough to thank these guys who take their time to put together threads like these. They're especially useful for guys like myself who have just began utilizing the modern biochem techniques to achieve our fitness goals. Thx again!

[xephonics]

no one answered when someone else asked, so I'll ask it

Will letro work instead of l-dex/arimidex?

[Big]

no one answered when someone else asked, so I'll ask it

Will letro work instead of l-dex/arimidex?

nope

[xephonics]

well damn, lol

I ordered the wrong combo then :/

[Big]

I'm not a fan of letro on pct, you can always save it in case you get gyno, it lasts a long time.

[xephonics]

would my pct be ok with just Tamox and Clomid? Or do i need to fork over the other chunk of money for the l-dex?

[Big]

start up a fresh thread in the Q+A section with the cycle and pct and I'll help you tweak it as needed.

[LIONKING123]

nice post pheedno, thanks. First i read that clomid and nolvadex compete for the same transporters, and only one of them is needed, preferably nolvadex because of the lesser side effects, now i'm reading that both should be taken. Also read that arimedex (L dex) being taken with nolvadex would lower blood plasma levels of it, so it shouldn't be taken with nolva, but rather during cycle, and instead using a type I suicide A.I. like Aromasin during pct.

It seems like the more i read the less i know, and what scares me is how people on here are soo anxious to start cycle and dont do enough reading, and sometimes ask for pct help while on cycle! Please guys research research before cycle. Good Sticky.

Agreed.

Is it best to use Nolva AND Clomid

OR

Nolva only as less sides and also increases test (according to Nolva vs Clomid Sticky)

I think this is the area that confuses alot of people....i'm one of them!

[Tarheel]

very informative, great to know

[Test 01]

good read thanks

[07sandiegomuscle]

This thread is from 2004 right and for 8 to 16 week cycles right? Many guru's on here are currently recommending only 8 week cycles right? So is this thread still relevant? What is PCT for an 8 week cycle? I want to use Test only for 8 weeks. No disrespect Pheedo. Are you on board the 8 week only cycles or still with the old school? Thanks. I am just trying to get wise and do things right.