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  1. #1
    chuck89gt5.0's Avatar
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    martial arts and juicing

    I am currently taking MMA I am doing jiu jitsu and kickboxing and **** do you get winded easily! I am planning on doing a cycle in a month. It will be test/tren /EQ/dbol


    I know tren is supposed to make you out of breath easier than normal. How hard will it be to juice and still be able to perform in martial arts.

    Also how much harder will it be to put on size?

  2. #2
    KAEW44's Avatar
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    some people have less gains during a cycle if they do very cardio intesive martial arts, if you adjust your diet and rest then u shouldnt have a problem.

  3. #3
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    man you are going to hurt somebody, juice and martial arts are a dangerous combination. you will be a cross between bruce lee and lou ferigno.

  4. #4
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    I am most worried about getting out of breath faster using steroids compared to all natural.

  5. #5
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    depends on what you take. Almost all pro fighters juice. Matt hughes walks around at 210 and fights at 169, they all do it, ufc is the only major organization that tests athletes and they only test when they are fighting for a title fight. and you can still beat those piss tests with a cathader, some get caught some dont. Pride and other organizations do not test so fighters look like freaks. I think it should be no big deal if a fighter juices because they all do it, so basicly it makes for a level playing field. Juice really dosent effect your wind too much, some of my friends have had trouble with decca and endurance. Clen sucked for me training big time, It made my lungs completely open so I couldnt get a full breath. No problems with my last cycle of test/eq/tren and I was fine. I know a lot of other bros run winny because its good for your cardio. You wont have much mass gains but you will gain all lean mass.

  6. #6
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    Thanks bro thats the kind of answer i was looking for.

  7. #7
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    There are a lot of scary MoFo's in the MMA's! When I fought years ago only a couple of guys were on gear and ironically I wasn't one of 'em. But if I could turn back the clock I would jump all over it. Maybe throw in a little anadrol around fight time! LOL

    MJ

  8. #8
    chionardo is offline Junior Member
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    I was going to ask the same question about martial arts and gear. I'm starting Muay Thai and Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu soon but at the moment my training as in for bodybuilding takes up most of my time and I don't want to end up losing a lot of the size I've put on because of having to do stupid amounts of cardio.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Well here's my 2 cent. If your starting off MMA are any combat (ie, realistic art) style I'd learn the foundations of the style first. I'd pretty much have a few 'clean' fights, learn all you can then only when your advanced and most likely meeting other juicers do it. Steroids may help make a bodybuilder/powerlifter out of you, but they don't make you a fighter!.

    My experience with gear has been mostly good. Although ECA and Clen gives me bad muscle cramps somedays, so I have to be pretty carefull. Other than that, I'm probably little more focused, like I am in the gym on a cycle.

  10. #10
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    Theoretically shouldn't juice help your endurance? Juice = high red blood cell count = better oxygen transport system = better cardiovascular system?

  11. #11
    jonnyblade is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMA
    how would i do the reverse catheter thing? i may need that soon, have some good stuff coming up


    Basically u pump someone else's urine into your bladder, like a straw up your c#$k with a squeeze bottle at the other end, bang you pee clean urine for the test. There are alot of other ways too, but that one is pretty much going to work everytime as long as you get good pee lol and know when your test is.

  12. #12
    Odin is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionmillionaires
    Theoretically shouldn't juice help your endurance? Juice = high red blood cell count = better oxygen transport system = better cardiovascular system?
    No, it hurts your Endurence, well most of them do. Steroids Recruit Fast twitch mucles fibers, so your longer slow twitch mucles turn into more explosive fast twitch mucles which burns up more energy. Also the ones the would be the worst would be ones that make you hold the most water, test,d-bol,anadrol , I've also heard tren is really hard too? I would think that EQ, winny and var would make a great cycle for a fight. Titto Ortiz looked like he was holding some water for his last fight and also had some very noticable face acne, My guess test, or d-boll, and his Endurence was down and he even admited it, luckely he was just fighting some no named canadian chump who did not now the ground. One guy I train with is all Natural but is looking at some harder comp. so I'm trying to talk him into Winny, EQ.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy_ba
    depends on what you take. Almost all pro fighters juice. Matt hughes walks around at 210 and fights at 169

    Are you sure he walks around at 210?

    I dont think so buddy. 185 maybe but definitly not 210.

    I know Beroni fights 185 and HE walks around at about 210. Ive trained with him. Matt Hughes..no way dude, at least not from what I seen and know.

    And not all the MMA fighters take roids.

    Yes many do , but lots do not as well!
    They just train hard as f--k!

    Peace!!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck89gt5.0
    I am currently taking MMA I am doing jiu jitsu and kickboxing and **** do you get winded easily! I am planning on doing a cycle in a month. It will be test/tren /EQ/dbol


    I know tren is supposed to make you out of breath easier than normal. How hard will it be to juice and still be able to perform in martial arts.

    Also how much harder will it be to put on size?

    I dont know much about what to take my man but I do know that you can have your cake and eat it too.

    A good example is WWE wrestlers:

    MOST of them have excellent endurance.

    Best example - Chris Benoit, Big Poppa Pump---excellent endurance & riped like f--k!!!

    I named wwe wrestlers cuz unlike MMA fighters, they have to perform every week.
    Not to say their training is better or they are tougher.
    just an example, cuz I think if any athletes fore sure takes AS, its those guys!

    PEACE

  15. #15
    Odin is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by phwSSJ
    I dont know much about what to take my man but I do know that you can have your cake and eat it too.

    A good example is WWE wrestlers:

    MOST of them have excellent endurance.

    Best example - Chris Benoit, Big Poppa Pump---excellent endurance & riped like f--k!!!

    I named wwe wrestlers cuz unlike MMA fighters, they have to perform every week.
    Not to say their training is better or they are tougher.
    just an example, cuz I think if any athletes fore sure takes AS, its those guys!

    PEACE
    Live wresiling is WAYYY tougher than WWF, and big time. WWF you get some breaks to do a fake slap, or recover from a fake hit. A hard fight taken to the ground his hard to explain. Well try doing a not stop drop set in deadlift's right to squats without any break until you can only squat your own body weight once and maybe deadlift 10 pounds for 1. Not done yet jog until you puke after that. A avarge untrained person will be spent in the first 20 seconds along. Try fight your weight plus somone elses weight without being able to take a good breath cause of the pressure on you stomach and chest. I personally would be scared to go against a good ground fighter on test, or d-bol for fear of running out of gas.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    No, it hurts your Endurence, well most of them do. Steroids Recruit Fast twitch mucles fibers, so your longer slow twitch mucles turn into more explosive fast twitch mucles which burns up more energy. EQ.
    That assesment is completely false buddy!!

    You are confusing aerobic/anerobic with fast/slow
    plus steroids do not recruit fast twitch, it all depends on how you train.

    Where did you get your info from?


    With the variety of the different types of steroids out there, OF COURSE some will help and some will hinder your endurance

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    Well try doing a not stop drop set in deadlift's right to squats without any break until you can only squat your own body weight once and maybe deadlift 10 pounds for 1. Not done yet jog until you puke after that.

    First of all, who said WWE wrestlers dont train as hard as "LIVE WRESTLERS"
    You missed my point! Those guys are HUGE! and Lots of em have near bodybuilder physiques, and they are high performance athletes as well, they know what to use.
    That is why they are good examples.

    Second, what a nice training routine you have there, train until you puke huh!
    Ever heard the term "smarter not harder!"

    That little workout you just described is not very effective in making gains in any aspect.
    One of the main reasons is that kind of stress will make your body far exceed its lactate threshhold, which is not healthy to put it in short.
    Training near lactate threshold is MUCH more efficient for gains.
    Training like that to complete failure is just stupid! Any experienced athlete can tell you that.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    I personally would be scared to go against a good ground fighter on test, or d-bol for fear of running out of gas.


    I am no steroid expert but have you read the profile on Test and what it does?

    I am pretty sure test will not hinder endurance.
    I dont think you have a very good understanding of human exercise physiology!

    PEACE

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Well here's my 2 cent. If your starting off MMA are any combat (ie, realistic art) style I'd learn the foundations of the style first. I'd pretty much have a few 'clean' fights, learn all you can then only when your advanced and most likely meeting other juicers do it. Steroids may help make a bodybuilder/powerlifter out of you, but they don't make you a fighter!.

    My experience with gear has been mostly good. Although ECA and Clen gives me bad muscle cramps somedays, so I have to be pretty carefull. Other than that, I'm probably little more focused, like I am in the gym on a cycle.


    The man is absolutely positively 100% correct on everything he just said.

    I could not agree more bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  20. #20
    Odin is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by phwSSJ
    First of all, who said WWE wrestlers dont train as hard as "LIVE WRESTLERS"
    You missed my point! Those guys are HUGE! and Lots of em have near bodybuilder physiques, and they are high performance athletes as well, they know what to use.
    That is why they are good examples.

    Second, what a nice training routine you have there, train until you puke huh!
    Ever heard the term "smarter not harder!"

    That little workout you just described is not very effective in making gains in any aspect.
    One of the main reasons is that kind of stress will make your body far exceed its lactate threshhold, which is not healthy to put it in short.
    Training near lactate threshold is MUCH more efficient for gains.
    Training like that to complete failure is just stupid! Any experienced athlete can tell you that.
    Ok on your next test cycle go on a nice 2 mile jog and tell me how it goes. I Do not train like that, NOR do I do much cardio when doing a bulker on test, or d-bol! Hey why don't you ask bouncer why he would rather fight at 6'2 220 than 6'2 260, it could have somthing to do with endurence. Hey ask any mod or fighter or anyone else if test or d-bol will hurt your endurence? Smarter not harder I agree, that's how I train, Dorian style, but where not talking bodybuilding, the thread was on juicing while fighting. The only drug I have really heard for great Edurence is EPO, and some believe EQ releases this in the body. IT's how you train huh? hmm I wonder who would take test and d-bol and go through a 8 week cardio program, more than likely not too many. Hey were trying to come up with a perfect cycle for MMA, An the member "MMA" So far thinks EQ and Var would be the best as of what he has thought of so far. I would agree with him on that nice cycle too. However you may differ and think a big fat test cycle might suit endurence better and to each their own.

  21. #21
    Odin is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by phwSSJ
    I am no steroid expert but have you read the profile on Test and what it does?

    I am pretty sure test will not hinder endurance.
    I dont think you have a very good understanding of human exercise physiology!

    PEACE
    Well I have read the profile as well as took 2 cycles of test and am on my 3th. When I'm on my test-d-bol combo I need to switch arms every 45 seconds or so when on the phone. When I just ran EQ at 800mg alone for a while my Endurence was simple awsome and had crazy veins everywhere. I'm going by my personal experience as well as others.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy_ba
    I know a lot of other bros run winny because its good for your cardio. You wont have much mass gains but you will gain all lean mass.
    just to add on, winny will make your joints hurt, as it depletes water retention

    I know bros in jujitsu that take alot of deca cuz it helps them wrestle around alot easier (via more lubrication in joints)

  23. #23
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    decca is good for your joints but if you are going to get tested you better have a good plan to beat the test.

    Quote Originally Posted by GQ-Bouncer
    just to add on, winny will make your joints hurt, as it depletes water retention

    I know bros in jujitsu that take alot of deca cuz it helps them wrestle around alot easier (via more lubrication in joints)

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy_ba
    decca is good for your joints but if you are going to get tested you better have a good plan to beat the test.
    I agree that's get's a lot of people nailed. MMA ex- heavy champion Tim Silivia got nailed with deca , anothers include Marice Green USA olimpic sprinter, and Marion Jones husband a USA olimpic shotputer got nailed with 1000 times the legal limit of deca, I bet he had a tender joint he wanted water in. Yeah 18 months is a long time in the system. I hear Equiopose Undecanate takes up to 18 months also I wonder what the time on Equiopose Actate or EQ prop would be? I don't have One 10th the Edurence now on Test-bol as I did on EQ and everthing is the same. that extra water is like wearing a 10 pound vest around.

  25. #25
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    Hughes is a master weight cutter, he has wrestled for years and has it down to a science. I have a buddy that trains with him in Iowa so I know for a fact that he walks around from anywhere from 200-210 up to 3 wks before his fights. He rally does cut 30-40 lbs for a fight. Most of it is from water retention as you can tell by looking at his face. I fight at 169 and walk around at 190 and that 21lbs is not too bad of a cut for me.

    I agree that not all fighter juice, but most of the top ones do. Look at tito's head now compared to 3 yrs ago. He has hit some serious GH because his head doubled in size. Pride dosent even test. UFC tests but only for championship fights and a catheder can fix that right up.
    Quote Originally Posted by phwSSJ
    Are you sure he walks around at 210?

    I dont think so buddy. 185 maybe but definitly not 210.

    I know Beroni fights 185 and HE walks around at about 210. Ive trained with him. Matt Hughes..no way dude, at least not from what I seen and know.

    And not all the MMA fighters take roids.

    Yes many do , but lots do not as well!
    They just train hard as f--k!

    Peace!!

  26. #26
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    Sylvia actuall got busted for winny. which stays in your system for 7 months. But some people are different, I have a buddy that ran a **** load of decca about 10 months before being tested and he came up clean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    I agree that's get's a lot of people nailed. MMA ex- heavy champion Tim Silivia got nailed with deca , anothers include Marice Green USA olimpic sprinter, and Marion Jones husband a USA olimpic shotputer got nailed with 1000 times the legal limit of deca, I bet he had a tender joint he wanted water in. Yeah 18 months is a long time in the system. I hear Equiopose Undecanate takes up to 18 months also I wonder what the time on Equiopose Actate or EQ prop would be? I don't have One 10th the Edurence now on Test-bol as I did on EQ and everthing is the same. that extra water is like wearing a 10 pound vest around.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy_ba
    depends on what you take. Almost all pro fighters juice. Matt hughes walks around at 210 and fights at 169, they all do it, ufc is the only major organization that tests athletes and they only test when they are fighting for a title fight. and you can still beat those piss tests with a cathader, some get caught some dont. Pride and other organizations do not test so fighters look like freaks. I think it should be no big deal if a fighter juices because they all do it, so basicly it makes for a level playing field. Juice really dosent effect your wind too much, some of my friends have had trouble with decca and endurance. Clen sucked for me training big time, It made my lungs completely open so I couldnt get a full breath. No problems with my last cycle of test/eq/tren and I was fine. I know a lot of other bros run winny because its good for your cardio. You wont have much mass gains but you will gain all lean mass.
    Hughes does not walk around at 210lbs? Thats news to me and i don't doubt it to be false. Pride does test their fighters so you are absolutely wrong in stating that they do not, Bas has discussed this many times on Sherdog.

    MMA and gear do not mix period! Your cardio will suck complete ass. Not to mention you will not get the gains you desire while doing martial arts on top of it all.

    I would do my cycle and only weight train.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by muriloninja
    Hughes does not walk around at 210lbs? Thats news to me and i don't doubt it to be false. Pride does test their fighters so you are absolutely wrong in stating that they do not, Bas has discussed this many times on Sherdog.

    MMA and gear do not mix period! Your cardio will suck complete ass. Not to mention you will not get the gains you desire while doing martial arts on top of it all.

    I would do my cycle and only weight train.

    I agree that Most juice and MMA do not agree, EQ is the SH*t for athletic strenght and Endurence. However I like how strict you mention Endurence with MMA, cause you could have one fighter stonger then hell and the other could be only 60% as strong with great Edurence, 1 minutie in the fight fighter 1 could be down to 50% strength and fighter 2 95% strenght, so the weaker figher now become the stonger figher only 1 minute into the fight, if it goes to the ground or is very aggresive fight in general. I would do like he say's "do your cycle and only weight train" Then either go natural or do and EQ var cycle with the mentality of just keeping your muscle and turning it into useful athletic muscle that is conservitive with energy, which could be hard done then said.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odin
    I agree that Most juice and MMA do not agree, EQ is the SH*t for athletic strenght and Endurence. However I like how strict you mention Endurence with MMA, cause you could have one fighter stonger then hell and the other could be only 60% as strong with great Edurence, 1 minutie in the fight fighter 1 could be down to 50% strength and fighter 2 95% strenght, so the weaker figher now become the stonger figher only 1 minute into the fight, if it goes to the ground or is very aggresive fight in general. I would do like he say's "do your cycle and only weight train" Then either go natural or do and EQ var cycle with the mentality of just keeping your muscle and turning it into useful athletic muscle that is conservitive with energy, which could be hard done then said.

    I cannot stress enough, the importance of conditioning in MMA. It is absolutely your number one priority. Just as you stated, conditioning will get you farther in the MMA world than strength.

    Some fighters have the perfect mix of cardio/strength, those being IMO:

    Wanderlei Silva (never gasses out, yet fights to the extreme and never pulls his punches in the least).

    Randy Couture has also gotten it down as he is very strrong and has good endurance.

    Tito Ortiz is another example of good conditioning along with power.


    The you have some that are built perfect visually, yet gas out rather easily: Coleman, Baroni to name a few.

    Also never forget: The more muscle you have the more oxygen your body needs.

    The ultimate cardio machine in MMA has got to be Murilo "Ninja" Rua..he is not huge muscle wise but his cardio is unmatched.
    Last edited by Panzerfaust; 12-20-2004 at 09:06 PM.

  30. #30
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    Odin, I may be wong about test, I even said I wasnt sure but everthing else I said is pretty much right. I think thats pretty much why all you targeted was my comment on test. Heh!
    I beleave that gear can help performance, if it didnt then pro athletes wouldnt take it, end of discussion.

    Muriloninja has good points I agree with alot of what he says..

    I still dont believe that bullsht about Matt Hughes, No one could loose that much weight and perform. No one could loose that much weight and live.
    If most of it was watter then he must look like the pillsberry dough boy 3 weeks before a fight. and thats not what he lookes like when I seen him.
    Whatever dude, I think who ever believes that is a dumbass !

    Peace yall
    Last edited by phwSSJ; 12-21-2004 at 11:20 AM.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by phwSSJ
    Odin, I may be wong about test, I even said I wasnt sure but everthing else I said is pretty much right. I think thats pretty much why all you targeted was my comment on test. Heh!
    I beleave that gear can help performance, if it didnt then pro athletes wouldnt take it, end of discussion.

    Muriloninja has good points I agree with alot of what he says..

    I still dont believe that bullsht about Matt Hughes, No one could loose that much weight and perform. No one could loose that much weight and live.
    If most of it was watter then he must look like the pillsberry dough boy 3 weeks before a fight.
    Whatever dude, I think who ever believes that is a dumbass !

    Peace yall

    Hey sorry if I came across offesive, I just don't want to see anyone go into a fight with the wind I got now. My friend was laughing last night about how good the d-bol was cause of 3 things, He had a PR in Bench, An 80 year old grandma outlasted him on the bike and at twice his pace, finally, I had to rush his ass some Nolvedex. However he said the PR outweighted the other 2.

  32. #32
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    It's not uncommon for 169 pounders to walk around at 200+ a couple weeks up to their fights then cut like **** to make weight. My training partner Diego Sanchez
    http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/...?fighterID=4824
    walks around at 205 and cuts to 169 for every fight. He usually drops that much weight in about a week and weighs in at 173 the night before weigh-ins. I know this because I've been one of his sparring partners for every one of his fights so I know how much he weighs and how much he cuts and if my boy D is doing it, so is matt hughes. By the way diego is going to be on the UFC reality show called Ultimate Fighter, it airs on spike tv in january so look out for him, he is one bad MF and I would put money on him beating any 169lb fighter out there.

    As far as hughes goes, the only other thing I can think of to show how much he weighs is the fact that right before he fought carlos newton for the first time, he competed in the grapplers quest in las vegas. I competed in the same tourney and took 3rd place at 179 my avatar is actually me winning the 3rd place match from that same tourney. Anyhow, hughes competed at 189lbs and took first place by points. Before the tourney we saw him running with a sweat suit on for about an hour outside durango h.s. cutting weight and he weighed in at 189.9. My point is that if he competed at 189lbs and cut hella weight to get to 189 wouldnt you think his weight would walk around at 200 if not higher? Im not asking for anyone to believe me but if you want to check the tourney results, it shows him weighing in at 189 so that should speak for itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by phwSSJ
    Odin, I may be wong about test, I even said I wasnt sure but everthing else I said is pretty much right. I think thats pretty much why all you targeted was my comment on test. Heh!
    I beleave that gear can help performance, if it didnt then pro athletes wouldnt take it, end of discussion.

    Muriloninja has good points I agree with alot of what he says..

    I still dont believe that bullsht about Matt Hughes, No one could loose that much weight and perform. No one could loose that much weight and live.
    If most of it was watter then he must look like the pillsberry dough boy 3 weeks before a fight. and thats not what he lookes like when I seen him.
    Whatever dude, I think who ever believes that is a dumbass !

    Peace yall

  33. #33
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    Pride only tests for controlled substances like coke, weed, speed etc. It is pretty much an open secret that they dont screen for roids. As far as wadny gassing out, he looked pretty tired when rampage was beating his ass in their last fight especially when he was mounted but I do have to give it to him, he came back in typical silva fashion with those knees.

    Quote Originally Posted by muriloninja
    Pride does test their fighters so you are absolutely wrong in stating that they do not, Bas has discussed this many times on Sherdog.

    MMA and gear do not mix period! Your cardio will suck complete ass. Not to mention you will not get the gains you desire while doing martial arts on top of it all.

    I would do my cycle and only weight train.

  34. #34
    phwSSJ's Avatar
    phwSSJ is offline Banned
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    Maybe your right, but It still does not seem possible.

    Congrats on your victory. I was gonna go to vegas as well but I had a bad ankle sprain.

    Gotta love grapplers quest and naga.

    i was gona go against US TOPTEAM's Monson in a grapplers quest at the beginning of the year, I was pissed as hell that I missed the opportunity(separated shoulder), I watched him though and I swear it would have been a good match between me and him. I separated my shoulder in a Judo tourament. I was out of my league in judo, those guys were olympic level.

    Injuries suck ass!

  35. #35
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    I didnt compete in this last GQ either, no f'ing money...but our team took 2nd whcih sucks because we have taken first the past 3 times. Monson is tough though, one of my teamates Keith Jardine missed wrestling him. monson took 1st and keith took 3rd so they didnt meet up. That would have been such a good match.

    Quote Originally Posted by phwSSJ
    Maybe your right, but It still does not seem possible.

    Congrats on your victory. I was gonna go to vegas as well but I had a bad ankle sprain.

    Gotta love grapplers quest and naga.

    i was gona go against US TOPTEAM's Monson in a grapplers quest at the beginning of the year, I was pissed as hell that I missed the opportunity(separated shoulder), I watched him though and I swear it would have been a good match between me and him. I separated my shoulder in a Judo tourament. I was out of my league in judo, those guys were olympic level.

    Injuries suck ass!

  36. #36
    realmxofxnoise is offline Junior Member
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    Just a quick post here. If you want to build endurance for MMA, you'll need to just become a cardio machine. Not that I like him at all, but take Frank Trigg for instance. The man is a cardio machine. Same goes for Nog and Fedor. Fedor says he doesn't weight train much, but I'm sure the mother ****er is up in Russia running in the snow and ****.

    As others have said, definitely a lot of MMA fighters are on the juice. Some look ****ing amazing (i.e. Mark Kerr). If you had read the interview with Heath Herring at all, he says a few weeks before a fight, he goes on a strict vegetarian diet, lots of fruits, veggies (carbs) and hits the cardio.

    Hope this helps,

    - Nick

  37. #37
    phwSSJ's Avatar
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    The bottom line is this:

    -Juicing will not make you a good fighter if you are not already a good fighter. You will just become a stupid fighter with a short fuse and more muscles.
    -If you are a good fighter and you know how to juice then it will give you an edge.
    -AND THAT IS CALLED CHEATING!!!!!!!

  38. #38
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    If all gear blows you up and makes your endurance suck, why didn't that happen for the long distance Olympic cyclists that got busted for steroids ? They were some skinny, small athletes that competed in a sport and required them to go on forever and ever and a really high pace.

  39. #39
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    Id stick with prop or eq. Personally Ive taken eq only while doing wrestling and bjj. Was great for endurance and recovery. PLus it helps with collegen synthesis. I mean they give it to race horses so you know it wont hurt your endurance.

  40. #40
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    man you guys brought this one from the past! Check the original post day ... and then the 2nd wave post date... adn then you 2 :P

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