Thread: Bruce Lee vs Royce Gracie
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11-27-2004, 07:25 PM #41AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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COMING TO GRIPS WITH BRUCE LEE
By Terry L. Wilson
While working on the "Green Hornet," Bruce Lee and Gene LeBell formed a lasting friendship based on martial arts.
Judo and wrestling legend Gene LeBell has hooked horns with the best in the game and in the process has earned the moniker "The Toughest Man Alive," by his peers. One of those to sing the praises of "Judo" Gene was Bruce Lee. In addition to his years of training and teaching martial arts, Gene is also one of Hollywood's top stuntmen. In fact, it's almost impossible to watch an action film without seeing Gene firing a machine gun, getting tossed out of a window or taking a fall for one of the superstars of the silver screen.
It was because of Gene's prowess in the martial arts and his popularity in Hollywood's stunt community that he was called in to check out a "new guy" by the name of Bruce Lee. I met Bruce when he was working on the television series, "Green Hornet," I recalled LeBell. Benny Dobbins was stunt coordinator for the show and he called and asked me to check out some kid by the name of Bruce Lee. "I got this guy who does the same stuff you do," Dobbins said. Of course, Benny didn't know the difference between judo and kung-fu, but he wanted me to watch this new actor work. One of the first things I noticed was that although Bruce was small, about 130 pounds, he had a tremendous upper body. Bruce was also very fast and wanted to always take the action beyond what the script called for. Once the director called action, he got that and a lot more from Bruce."
Bruce Soars to New Heights New to American humor, the Chinese actor didn't know what to make of it when Gene hoisted him over his shoulders and ran up and down the stairs doing a fireman's carry with Lee draped over his shoulders. "Stuntmen and wrestlers have their own brand of humor and at first Bruce didn't take my little joke too kindly," LeBell said with a chuckle. "Eventually he realized we were just welcoming him into our group and before long he fit right in with the rest of the rowdy stuntmen." Gene went on to do stuntwork in many episodes of the "Green Hornet" with Lee. During their time together on the set, the future kung-fu superstar and the legendary judo master got to know each other. "Bruce liked doing parlor tricks on the set," recalled LeBell. "He would make a dollar disappear and other magic tricks. "You've got to remember when I first met him Bruce wasn't famous. Back then he was just another actor who did martial arts."
Gene's Grappling Lesson LeBell and Lee became friends and frequently trained at each other's dojo. It was during these sessions that Bruce was introduced to Gene's grappling skills, and in return Bruce taught Gene how to kick. "At that time I had a small dojo near Paramount Studios," LeBell explained. "Bruce would come to my school and I'd go to his. Back then he had a small school in Chinatown. We worked out on a one-on-one basis and we both learned a great deal from each other. He taught me a lot of kung-fu moves that I had never seen before, and Bruce was phenomenal with his kicks. He taught me how to do crescent kicks and spinning backkicks. Of course, nowadays everybody does those kicks, but back then it was all new and exciting. In return, I showed Bruce some judo throws and grappling techniques. In fact, he used one of the judo grappling armbars I taught him in Enter The Dragon."
Although Bruce was impressed with Gene's skill he wasnít taken with grappling as a sport that would ever draw a big audience. "I remember Bruce saying that pro wrestling would never be a popular spectator sport because they spend so much time struggling to get a hold or grip on each other," Gene said. "Bruce would say, "Wrestling is boring and people will turn on another channel." Well, I wonder what Bruce would say if he were around today and saw the WWF, which is the most popular show on television today."
Grappling's "Green Hornet" As Gene and Bruce continued to work together on the "Green Hornet", the kung-fu star incorporated a few of Gene's judo moves into the action. "There was a couple of times when Bruce threw me using a judo throw during the filming of the ëGreen Hornets," Gene said. "He'd use a shoulder throw on me and I said to him, "Bruce, toss in a couple of your kicks and show off your versatility." Another time I did a martial arts demonstration with Bruce. I was throwing a bunch of people all over the place then Bruce came out and threw me using a judo throw. Iíve even got a tape of that somewhere around the house." Gene also recalled the time when his friend, martial arts legend Bob Wall, called and was all excited about working with Bruce Lee in the film Enter The Dragon. Bob called and said, "This guy is the toughest guy in the world." Of course, I'd been working with Bruce and I told Bob that Bruce was also the nicest guy in the world. Another thing that made Bruce a superstar was his outstanding showmanship and on-screen charisma." The Son Also Rises In addition to working with Bruce, Gene also shared a lot of screen time with his son, Brandon. "Brandon was a very tough martial artist and his dad would have been very proud of him," Gene said. "The way Brandon and I met was kind of funny. Mike Vendrell is a great stuntman as well as an outstanding martial artist and Brandon's kung-fu teacher; well, he frequently worked out with Brandon and one day Mike brought him to my dojo. Mike (Mike Vendrell is a man that Gene respects so much he named a move after him in his Encyclopedia of Finishing Holds: "The Vendrell Vice") introduced us and asked me to work out with Brandon. Brandon said, "You really want me to work with this old man?" Well I was about 50 then so I got on the mat and showed him how sadistic some old men are. (Gene claims he's still an old man and some claim he's just as sadistic. Gene's definition of "sadistic" is administering an attitude adjustment.) We had a lot of fun together and by the end of our workout I think Brandon went away with a newfound respect for judo and senior citizens." Following their initial meeting some time passed before Brandon and LeBell met again. This time it was on the set of the movie Rapid Fire. Gene was naturally playing the bad guy and Brandon the good guy.
"I was shooting a machine gun and Brandon shot me during a fight sequence," Gene said. "I wanted them to let Brandon beat me up and throw me through a window so I could take some nice falls for him and really show off his martial arts skills. Unfortunately they didn't have time to do the extra stunts and it would have changed the script so Brandon just shot me. Too bad, it would have been fun if he could have beaten me up a little first. Brandon was a great, great athlete. I just wish he coulda beat me up on screen. I mean, every star in Hollywood has beaten me up at one time or another so it would have been nice if Brandon could have done that too." Like his father, Brandon realized that Gene's techniques could greatly augment his fight scenes in the movies so he sought out "Judo" Geneís help to add some throws and locks to his growing martial arts repertoire.
"Brandon was really into his acting, but he also didn't mind mixing it up on the mat either," Gene said. "He came down to a few classes and we worked out together just like I did with his dad. Brandon was a tough little scrapper." In recounting his experiences with Bruce Lee, LeBell modestly said, "He learned a lot from me and I learned a lot from him. It was a tremendous experience knowing him and Brandon. I'm grateful for the opportunity to have shared mat time with such a nice and talented family."
Terry L. Wilson is a San Diego, California-based martial artist and freelance writer.
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12-01-2004, 07:27 PM #42
Nice post C. Think this thread answers the question of Bruce vs. Anybody.
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12-02-2004, 03:27 AM #43Originally Posted by CYCLEON
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12-02-2004, 04:30 AM #44
Bruce Lee would have KILLED Royce Gracie. I still think that the whole Gracie Ju-Jitsu and Ultimate Fighting was set up. Nobody ever heard of this Brazillian Ju-Jitsu fighting untill this 5'10 175lbs man showed up and beat EVERYONE. Now EVERYBODY has jumped on the Ju-Jitsu bandwagon. Take Royce and put him up against someone like the pro wrestler The Giant who is 7'4 450lbs. What is Royce going to do to him. If he tries to tackle him The Giant will just pick him up and break him. Bruce Lee on the other hand would hit and kick the Giant 500 Times before the Giant even knew what the hell was going on. Eventually Bruce would knock the man down.
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12-02-2004, 09:32 AM #45AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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Originally Posted by RockSolid
The reason the 1" is so powerful is because it is the same principle as the whip (main hand strike) - that is completely relaxed until the end of the strike -and it is your whole body sort of having a rippling wave from your toes and ending in the lower 1/2 of your fist - but keep in mind the whole 1" thing is just a demonstrative thing, its not like you would ever do it in a fight - but it is something of the essence of the art
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12-02-2004, 11:34 AM #46Retired Vet
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Originally Posted by CYCLEON
When are you coming back to 'The Emerald Isle'
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12-02-2004, 11:44 AM #47
I live in charlotte nc and my gym is connected to one of the gracie family ju jitsu studios and have met and talked to royce a few times, most recently was in august, he is a little dude up close its kind of misleading infact, but a couple of us got to talking about k-1 and mike tyson and different cinerios and what royce said himself was that he would crush mike into submission really quickly although he did say that he would have a big problem w/ a fighter who was a very fast percise striker b/c he wouldnt have time to lock w/ someone who is "bruce lee" fast. I remember specifically that he mentioned bruce lee ion his exapmle which leads me to believe that even royce doesnt think he could do it.BTW this black dude they call snake that works out at the gracie gym is a BAD ASS grappler! he was primarily a striker before training w/ them but look for him soon Im sure he will be a rising star.again I would imaginr royce gracie is not too much bigger than lee (his wrists are like 5 inches around) he is a little dude. I know all of you MMA people know all of thier stats and all but I am just a boxer and always have been since 12 yr old. anyone know how much royce weighs?
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12-02-2004, 02:54 PM #48Originally Posted by CYCLEON
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12-02-2004, 05:01 PM #49
LMFAO!!! UFC set up hahaha
I know that the original creator of ufc was a member of the gracie family but the reason that they started ufc was because they wanted to prove that their form of martial arts was more effective than any other form in a way that the public could view it and judge for themselves. And they proved it pretty well. The gracies have even challenged several heavyweight boxing champs including mike tyson in the early 90's. Every time they put out a challenge the other guy would either back out or they would lose. The reason you dont see to many other styles in the ufc pride or ther mma competitions anymore is because they got their a$$es kicked so many times that they wont even try to compete anymore. And my favorite line from some of the kung fool guys is that they dont compete because they only fight when it's needed for selfe defense therefore mma competitions would be against their beliefs. HAHAHA...Or the whole death touch thing, f'ing priceless. In my mind silva and coture are by far the toughest out there right now and if any of you think that lee would beat either of them you are just a freakin moron. Everybody wants to think that there is someone that is "super human" that they cant possibly lose because of some mystic martial arts force but when you break it down, a fight is a fight no matter how you look at it and even the top dogs lose so dont believe what you see in the movies because it's not real.
just my .02
Originally Posted by sooners04
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12-03-2004, 12:03 AM #50
bruce could generate so much force/power that he could penetrate an unopened steel coke can with two fingers, as there weren't aluminum cans in the 60s early 70s
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12-03-2004, 12:28 AM #51New Member
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I would have to say bruce lee was a great fighter and very fast indeed, but he wasnt superhuman, there will always be someone better and faster, especially with drugs, I mean take bruce lee and load him full of winstrol , I bet he would have even been more phenomenal, not to mention other supplements and improved diets that are on the market with all the research that goes into it now. Also fighting is still being perfected, I box and the techniques change all the time, people always find a better way to throw the perfect punch or counter, and when there are guys with a team of coaches from all different flavours of fighting, there just going to keep getting better.
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12-03-2004, 12:40 AM #52New Member
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Another prime example is Royce Gracie, when he hit UFC 1, he made those guys look like fools, it was pathetic, he gets quite a fight now, half the time he just sits on his back and they tire out before him and make a mistake, I think Royce is a good fighter but he is not well rounded enough, there are too many fighters that can grapple almost as close to his level but can strike 10 times better than him.
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12-03-2004, 03:25 AM #53Originally Posted by billy_ba
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12-03-2004, 03:32 PM #54
The gracies have been the most popular martial artists in brazil since the 1950's. the reason no one heard of the gracies throughout the rest of the world is because who wants to see martial arts movies where theres not much punching and everyone gets choked out? People want to see flashy dramatic scenes in movies.
Originally Posted by sooners04
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12-03-2004, 03:36 PM #55Originally Posted by billy_ba
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12-03-2004, 07:42 PM #56
Albert Einstein once said Mozart was the greates genius the world has ever seen, in any field. Well, do some research and you'll see that Bruce Lee was the Mozart of martial arts. Do some research about the man and form your own opinion.
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12-04-2004, 01:36 AM #57New Member
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How is Mozart the greatest genius in any field??? It sounds silly, I am sure he was inventing electricity while performing brain surgery and mastering kung fu. He may have been a brilliant man with some new ideas, but put him here today and he wouldnt look so smart, kinda like Bruce Lee, in his day his training was way ahead of the times, guys in the UFC are doing even more improved routines. He would have to catch up and learn everything that has changed since the 70's in sports, training, nutrition and of course advancement in techniques. Maybe then he could win, he probably might need a few thousand dollars in drugs a lot of the other guys are on too.
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12-04-2004, 05:58 AM #58
Ok!
When I said greatest field I meant overall. Out of all the geniuses in the world, no matter what they did, he was the greatest. Is that better. And thats not from me but from another great genius, Einstien, who I think would know better than you and me. Einstein said Mozarts music was absolutely perfect in harmony and balance and brilliance. He stated there was nothing that could be improved on. Beethoven wrote many pieces which were variations of other composers works because he thought he could make them better. He also stated he never wrote a variation of a Mozart piece because there was nothing he could do to make it better. To say Mozart would not look smart today with his music either shows that you don't know much about Mozart and the history of classical music or martial arts. Mozart wrote an opera at eight years old, and a good one at that. Ask any musician about Mozart, or any respected martial artist about Bruce Lee and see what they say. Hell, read this thread. Why do you think Bruce Lee is still talked about so much today. Thirty years after his death. When you compare Mozart and Bruce Lee they have this in common. They were extrordinarily talented, and they had an extreme passion for what they were doing. Thats the recipe for greatness.They could not have done anything else and been happy.
Originally Posted by jonnyblade
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12-06-2004, 12:49 AM #59New Member
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Who has Bruce Lee even fought?
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12-06-2004, 01:02 AM #60Originally Posted by jonnyblade
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12-06-2004, 01:24 AM #61New Member
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I have been looking into this for the last bit, and Bruce Lee has no professional fighing experience, he fought many street fights when he was a young boy like 10-14 he claims. There have been a few witnesses say they seen him fight in the states but the stories are conflicting and not reliable. Apparently not many people even witnessed him spar. At first I thought Bruce was the champion of his era, but there is nothing really to base it on other than his demonstrations of technique or skill. I mean you see guys breakin bricks, beach rocks, lifting a few hundred pounds or being able to hit like Tyson with brass knuckles, but it still doesn't make you the toughest man in the world. In that case look out everyone Butter Bean is my new champion lol. jk
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12-06-2004, 11:29 AM #62
Studied Wing Chun under the instruction of Yip Man. Learned as far as the second hand form and part of the wooden dummy form. Didn't finish the wooden dummy form, learn the third hand form or weapons forms. With Wong Sheun-Leung, William Cheung, and others, made Wing Chun famous in Hong Kong by winning numerous challenge matches against other martial artists.
this is off his biography and this is before he studied another five years before doing his first movie...He was famous before he did movies because he was the greatest fighter around...why else did they put him in flicks in asia?Also didn't the martial arts
powers to be send over two of the best fighters to challenge him for the right to teach americans his skillz...Supposedly he beat them both then slept for 48 hours straight...That always impressed me,his storing of power and then how he could release it like that and wear himself to sleep...As to say you cant find any of his matches,well they would have been in china in the 50's..I highly dought those secret ass PPL even kept records back then they knew who was the baddest...
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12-06-2004, 01:15 PM #63New Member
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Yeah I have been looking more into this and he did fight quite a bit in Hong Kong but it was in his teens, he left when he was 19 and came to the USA where he went to school. He did not appear to fight after that, other than Wong Jack Man a famous Kung Fu teacher and he did beat him. After this it was all movies, I would have to say if he had a prime it was when he was 18 or 19 when he was in the ring. In order to be on top you have to be fighting alot. In my opinion he reinvented martial arts, a lot of contenders looked up to him for his wisdom, but when he got put on the big screen it made him bigger than he actually was.
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12-06-2004, 05:15 PM #64New Member
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Hell, why not throw in my two cents?
First, to mention that I belive Bruce Lee to have been an incredible fighter. The man had speed to spare, and if you think for a moment about this statement, you will see that it means something. Speed to spare in a fight is something that no current fighter (k1, pride, ufc, etc) has.
I have also noticed on these forums, and on many others, a general habit of stating that "if the kung fu people don't come to fight in the UFC then it must mean kung-fu is ****". I live my life as a cocky man, I belive it's the essence of masculinity, but there's a big difference between cocky and stupid. To state that is to prove that you have no understanding of psychology, of social psychology, of various cultural differences, and that you have probably gone through life up to now not as a cocky man but as a cocky idiot. The few gung-fu fighters that have fought in the ufc had been brought up in a western environement. Just some food for thought; I could write pages upon pages about this only to have it dismissed in a few unreasonable sentences...therefore, I will not.
My appreciation for kung-fu began 6 years ago. In the gym owned by one of my friend worked out a romanian kickboxer (this happens in Romania), who was a pro fighter in France. The guy was about 250 pounds, not lean but certainly muscular, and he could bench 460 pounds. He had the whole package, lower and upped body strenght (can't remember his squat max though...not that it ****ing matters anyhow). He had also done grappling, and fought in lower K-1 events. One of the man's problems was that he never got off the juice and that probably kept him from advancing in the sport. At the same gym trained a 40 something year old kung-fu 'teacher'. He taught his classes in a small gym that was maybe 2 minutes walk from my friend's gym. The guy was tall and bony, but only weighed around 190 pounds. Somehow they end up heading for his gym (with half the guys who were training at that hour following them, including me), where they fight with gloves, kickboxing rules.
The kung fu guy abandons after a short fight. He didn't stand back, they went at it all out, and even though he had superiour technique and speed (he really did seem to fight well with gloves, the fight wasn't too unbalanced for a short while) strenght won. He couldn't hurt him, yet got hurt plenty. But that was just the first fight of the day, because a few minutes after he challenges the kickboxer to a bare knuckles fight, ground rules included (stipulated by the kickboxer who had grappling training, as mentioned earlier).
He used what I later found out to be eagle-claw. He used what I later found out to be continuity, the ideea that impact and pain have an effect upon the human body, and that effect can be used to gain time and neutralise attacks. Now, remember, this guy wasn't extremely fast, or conditioned, he was a man with (later found out) 17 years kung fu experience, and a few amateur competitions under his belt. But the difference between the way he fought with gloves and the way he fought without gloves made me realise that there is something there, something that goes beyond simply closing your fist and throwing a big one. He wasn't touched in the second fight. He later told me that he could have used finger strikes to the eyes, and I fully belive him. I belive him because he knocked out the kickboxer with a spinning jump kick to the face/head. Sure, sounds fantastic, but I was there and I saw it. It came right after various palm strikes to the head, neck and sternum/plexus, which had his opponent unable to see. Tears from the impact to his face.
What I saw there was a man whom I later found out trained for a couple of years in China, play with an experienced kickboxer (pro) much heavier than him. He made a ****ing show out of it. And he is the first to admit that he is just an average, aging fighter, although he has quite some street happenings behind him.
Bruce Lee? The guy was unbelivable. Sincerely...I'd like it to be true that he was a fake. I'd like all the kung fu **** to be untrue. Because I'm 40 and I've spent my life as a competitive bodybuilder, doing bag work and some kickboxing. It's better for me to belive that big muscles are best for punchng strenght, and that technique means putting on a glove and going at it. It's better, but not true.
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12-06-2004, 05:47 PM #65New Member
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Excerpt from above.
First, to mention that I belive Bruce Lee to have been an incredible fighter. The man had speed to spare, and if you think for a moment about this statement, you will see that it means something. Speed to spare in a fight is something that no current fighter (k1, pride, ufc, etc) has.
Of course he weighted 135lbs, a featherweight will always look like lightning against a heavyweight, but heavyweights always hit harder, thats why they divide them. That is also why you dont see lightweights in these tournaments, maybe grapplers might or if they actually have a lightweight category. It is like Lennox Lewis vs. Oscar DeLaHoya toe to toe Oscar is just too small.Last edited by jonnyblade; 12-06-2004 at 05:49 PM. Reason: type - o
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12-06-2004, 05:50 PM #66New Member
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Maybe you don't watch K-1 around here, but just a few days ago...Kaoklai KOd Mighty Mo.....................................
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12-06-2004, 06:20 PM #67New Member
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No, I find K-1 not that great, its kind of going the halfway to reality fighting. You also have to realize its not quite on par with pro boxing with equal fighters. You could have someone the equivalent of Lennox Lewis fighting ButterBean. But back on the subject its far from a fighting event, you could be a K-1 champ and still be made a fool in the ring in a reality fighting tournament with less rules.
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12-06-2004, 07:17 PM #68
Nice Post RoChamp.
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12-07-2004, 12:40 PM #69AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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Yeah - one thing I can tell you is gloves make a huge difference - especially with the speed/visibility of the hand - and the trapping, the tiny grab or sliding hand of chi sau (sticky hands) that extends into a gale force punch - these kind of things are very hard to do with most fighting gloves
another thing - we never blocked, it was a jam (why speed is so important), deflection or usually just shifting weight to avoid it - one reason speed and sensitivity training is so important - but the idea is an intercepting fist, really no need to ever block unless totally blindsided - and in some sense, we were very good a grappling in upper body - but usually it was just for the purpose of seeking an opening to strike - and of course when we got one in, ususally that could be followed by 4 or 5 more as they were falling back - if you ever hear someone in a gym on a heavy bag (no gloves of course) and it sounds like a machine gun hitting it...that is probably someone from our class or a rare one similar to it
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12-07-2004, 02:10 PM #70Retired Vet
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If all this were true, why isn't there some old Fung Fu guy cleaning up in heavy weight boxing and making a pile of money?, or any other big money event for that matter?...
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12-07-2004, 02:24 PM #71Originally Posted by BOUNCER
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12-10-2004, 11:29 PM #72Originally Posted by billy_ba
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12-12-2004, 09:07 PM #73New Member
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Originally Posted by AG5678
That comment is ridiculous, it is the equivelent of ben johnson will always be the fastest man.
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12-14-2004, 03:54 PM #74
I gotta get in on this one. I've had the pleasure of studying JKD for 2 years (wish it had been more). I also studied Isshin Ryu Karate and kickboxing. IMHO JKD was FAR superior to both of those or any other martial art that I have seen. The things that Bruce Lee combined to create JKD....Wing Chun, Boxing, Fencing. He searched different fighting methods and pulled the best from each.
I think it would be a toss up in an MMA fight between BL and Gracie. However, on the street where there are no rules BL would have killed Gracie. He would have access to all of his weapons like the Bil Jee, Jik Tek to Groin think longest weapon to the closest target.
Cycleon - I agree with your posts about BL having unnatural strength and speed, he was the man.
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12-20-2004, 04:14 AM #75
Bruce Lee started studying grappling but did not have the chance to get into it cuz he died. MMA is pretty much what Bruce Lee was trying to make mainstream, finally it happened. To bad he isnt alive to see it.
RIP Bruce!!!
May God have mercy on his soul!
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03-08-2005, 07:48 PM #76
No!!!
UFC dudes wont even try punching the dude since hes so fast
there tackle him to the floor and a guy who is fast on his feet isn't that fast on the floor
I see Bruce Lee as a movie martial arts man and nothing else
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03-08-2005, 08:58 PM #77Originally Posted by Joey2ness
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03-08-2005, 09:20 PM #78
Seems like there's a lot of these threads... Anyways read some of Bruce Lee's books, watched the movies... I would definately put my money on Bruce Lee.
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03-09-2005, 02:17 AM #79Originally Posted by sooners04
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03-11-2005, 01:11 AM #80
Thats not completely true if you had a 16 year old well built and very much aware of his game he could do some damage to a 30 year in his physical prime.
Not to say theres alot of 16 year olds out there that could really do some damage out of their age range.
As for lee he was far from a sissy with his quick punchs.
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