Shogun vs The Hammer

[catabolic kid]

I cannot believe that Mauricio Shogun Rua is going to fight Mark Coleman.

I love Coleman, he is the man, he is still in their fighting at over 40 yrs old...he is just an awesome guy.

I really hope Coleman wins, but I think that Sogun is going to take this one.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news.asp?n_id=3899

[Panzerfaust]

Shogun is gonna **** Coleman up..Coleman is way down in weight these days..some say as low as 215-220lbs

And to you Catabolic Kid that is roughly 99kg.

[catabolic kid]

Shogun is gonna **** Coleman up..Coleman is way down in weight these days..some say as low as 215-220lbs

And to you Catabolic Kid that is roughly 99kg.

Haha...

I cannot believe Coleman is that low in weight!! Any pics? I wish that he would fight people his age...I hate to see him go in there and loose to a guy in his prime when Coleman is way over the hill.

[USfighterFC]

Yeah if he loses to Shogun I think his fighting days are done. His contract is up with pride after this fight and I dont see them renewing it.

[simm]

Shogun will knee the shit out of coleman and stop hiom early..Look at wat he done to rampage..Colemans takedowns are so predictable nowadays that shogun will stop them and counter wiv knees or a submission from his back very early on!! I hope so.....lol

[catabolic kid]

Shogun will knee the shit out of coleman and stop hiom early..Look at wat he done to rampage..Colemans takedowns are so predictable nowadays that shogun will stop them and counter wiv knees or a submission from his back very early on!! I hope so.....lol

I hope Coleman wins, you know he would in his prime. Coleman is a legend in the sport of MMA and a very cool person...I hate to hear people say that they hope he will loose.

[simm]

I only hope he looses as we need young blood (so to speak) entering the sport,that way it will progress....

[sonar1234]

Coleman never quit new how to finish a fight, i dont see him winning at all, he is gonna gas out of shogun is gonna land some serious blows to put him away quick.

Coleman came back to win the 2000 gp but at that time there where no Fedor, Nog , Crop Cop, is opposition was a bit weak, now with all the top guys he is simply going to be a punching bag.

I dont hate Coleman, probably will pop up in UFC for a few fights

[Hunter]

Look for a muay thia clinch and stuffed shots with sprawl and soccer kicks. I like coleman but he should retire. I see him gassing badly and getting clinched i.e rampage at the grand prix.

[Tedbear981]

I hope coleman wins...never could stand shogun....

[catabolic kid]

Coleman never quit new how to finish a fight, i dont see him winning at all, he is gonna gas out of shogun is gonna land some serious blows to put him away quick.

Coleman came back to win the 2000 gp but at that time there where no Fedor, Nog , Crop Cop, is opposition was a bit weak, now with all the top guys he is simply going to be a punching bag.
I dont hate Coleman, probably will pop up in UFC for a few fights

It is not the tougher opponents that is the problem....it is the fact that he is 41 years old. He has lost alot of his strength, speed and athleticism....you understand that he is at a huge disadvantage right! The fact that he is 41 and he is still stepping into the Pride ring is amazing...he has nothing to prove, he is just a great competitor.

He is in the same situation as Randy Couture.....if Randy was the same age as Chuck, Randy would use Chuck as a punching bag! And if Coleman was the same age as Cro Cop, he would have used him as a punching bag as well, as Cro Cop is a great athlete, but could not defend himself against Colemans Grappling. Also, the exclusion of headbutts and elbows hurts the wrestlers offense. A good way to illustrate this is to look at the first fight between Coleman and Frye and compare it to their second fight!

[USfighterFC]

It is not the tougher opponents that is the problem....it is the fact that he is 41 years old. He has lost alot of his strength, speed and athleticism....you understand that he is at a huge disadvantage right! The fact that he is 41 and he is still stepping into the Pride ring is amazing...he has nothing to prove, he is just a great competitor.

He is in the same situation as Randy Couture.....if Randy was the same age as Chuck, Randy would use Chuck as a punching bag! And if Coleman was the same age as Cro Cop, he would have used him as a punching bag as well, as Cro Cop is a great athlete, but could not defend himself against Colemans Grappling. Also, the exclusion of headbutts and elbows hurts the wrestlers offense. A good way to illustrate this is to look at the first fight between Coleman and Frye and compare it to their second fight!

Coleman couldn't and wouldn't beat Cro-Cop in his prime. Even if he got him to the ground he wouldnt be able to do anything with him. Barnett couldnt and Fedor couldn't. Coleman was a great fighter in his day because everyone mostly only knew one style and wrestling was the best foundation for being successful in MMA at the time. Now every fighter is very much more well rounded and Coleman never adapted to the game. Randy Couture adapted well and was able to make a successful transition from a Greco-Roman wrestler to a complete MMA fighter. Same thing with Randleman, he could be a great fighter if he actually learned something else. Think about it, you never see coleman going for an armbar or a high kick or any kick for that matter or a triangle or anything that's outside his wrestling base. It's usually some kind of neckcrank that takes a tremendous amount of power to pull off. He could be 10 years younger and there is no way he'd break through the top 3 of pride ever. And most likely he'd lose to many others as well.

[catabolic kid]

Coleman couldn't and wouldn't beat Cro-Cop in his prime. Even if he got him to the ground he wouldnt be able to do anything with him. Barnett couldnt and Fedor couldn't. Coleman was a great fighter in his day because everyone mostly only knew one style and wrestling was the best foundation for being successful in MMA at the time. Now every fighter is very much more well rounded and Coleman never adapted to the game. Randy Couture adapted well and was able to make a successful transition from a Greco-Roman wrestler to a complete MMA fighter. Same thing with Randleman, he could be a great fighter if he actually learned something else. Think about it, you never see coleman going for an armbar or a high kick or any kick for that matter or a triangle or anything that's outside his wrestling base. It's usually some kind of neckcrank that takes a tremendous amount of power to pull off. He could be 10 years younger and there is no way he'd break through the top 3 of pride ever. And most likely he'd lose to many others as well.

Ok, I am a big fan of Mark Kerr, Mark Coleman and Randy Couture...al of these wrestlers are total badasses!! I will just say that all of the other fighters are lucky that they would never have to meet one of these dudes in Vale Tudo.

[simm]

Wat do you mean? They have fought in mma/vale tudo....

[Tedbear981]

here comes the "kerr would have beaten Fedor in a vale tudo match" again..

[simm]

Kerr had to outweigh everybody in vale tudo by around 50 lbs.(gurgel)....Seems to be the wrestlers thing!! Don't get me wrong they are great athletes and i compete myself but they always outweigh their opponents in vale tudo!! Also i believe fedor would be as good or even better in vale tudo than he is now!!

[Hunter]

My friend brought up a funny maybe very very long shot but plausable theory. We all know Coleman has threw a fight before and shogun and silva said they had a predetermined outcome if they both made it the GP finals. This could be a work I mean Coleman has no career left and DSE could be using this fight to push Shogun over as a legit heavyweight. I dont believe this just a thought becouse I dont think Shogun needs a payoff to beat Coleman. Just a thought a friend had on a side note he is a complete wackjob.

[soo2bhuge]

i think a lot of people r underestimating shogun. this kid is for real. just watch him fight. u can't duplicate his intensity, aggresiveness and ability to slug it out if need be. i know that many will disagree, but i think he will have the best chance to beat fedor as a hw.

[simm]

True!!!! Shogun would beat most of the pride heavies already imo...Like to see him fight sergei......

[Panzerfaust]

Ok, I am a big fan of Mark Kerr, Mark Coleman and Randy Couture...al of these wrestlers are total badasses!! I will just say that all of the other fighters are lucky that they would never have to meet one of these dudes in Vale Tudo.

All the fighters you mentioned are good but fighting under "Vale Tudo" rules would not help them as much as you think, when you are outmatched..you are outmatched plain and simple. Couture is the only one that truly evolved as he has sub defense as well as good boxing skills.

I assume you are refering to the ability to headbutt? Coleman used headbutts once in the guard of an opponent back in the day, he has'nt taken anyone down lately the level is just to high for him anymore. CroCop stuffed his TD's with little effort.

Those guys had their day (Coleman, Kerr) and yes they were good. You have to admit Kerr was boring towards the end when he could no longer just GnP someone out within a few minutes ala the Igor fight.

[catabolic kid]

Kerr had to outweigh everybody in vale tudo by around 50 lbs.(gurgel)....Seems to be the wrestlers thing!! Don't get me wrong they are great athletes and i compete myself but they always outweigh their opponents in vale tudo!! Also i believe fedor would be as good or even better in vale tudo than he is now!!

There is a tradeoff between size and athletic ability. If a person who is 250 pounds is as athletic as a person who is 180 pounds than he deserves to win. Kerr had to outweigh his opponents. His easiest fight was against a guy who outweighed Kerr by 100 pounds (paul varleans). Fedor would be good in Vlae Tudo obviously. But, for a guy like Kerr...he lost all of his weapons when he went to MMA. I love FEDOR...I think he is underrated! But, you really have to think that if anyone could beat him it would be Kerr in a no rules fight. Do not overlook how much MMA rules took away from Kerrs game. Fedor's weakness is his takedown defense....we know what Kerr is good at! Also, once Kerr is on top, he would have no trouble defending subs (I know Coleman got caught by fedor, but Coleman did not win Abu Dhabi Twice), also, Fedor would have a tough time getting Subs when he is having elbows and headbutts in his face. The only thing I can see (small chance) is Kerr gassing. Remember, I think Fedor is the greatest to ever compete, nobody compares to him in MMA. But, the original thread I posted about this was just to see if anyone could possibly beat Fedor and I think Kerr was best equipped for this.

[catabolic kid]

All the fighters you mentioned are good but fighting under "Vale Tudo" rules would not help them as much as you think, when you are outmatched..you are outmatched plain and simple. Couture is the only one that truly evolved as he has sub defense as well as good boxing skills.

I assume you are refering to the ability to headbutt? Coleman used headbutts once in the guard of an opponent back in the day, he has'nt taken anyone down lately the level is just to high for him anymore. CroCop stuffed his TD's with little effort.

Those guys had their day (Coleman, Kerr) and yes they were good. You have to admit Kerr was boring towards the end when he could no longer just GnP someone out within a few minutes ala the Igor fight.

Even Bas said "they took all of the weapons of KERR away" The elbows made a bigg difference in Kerrs ground and pound...look at how easy the guys in UFC ground and Pound.

Now, you know when you are 40 years old (Coleman) that your takedowns will not be as fast as they once were. I dont think that Coleman (Olympic Wrestler) would have trouble taking down Cro Cop when he was in his prime. I will say that Cro Cop has an amazing takedown defense...probably better than most people realize. I say this becasue he is more vulnerable than most strikers becasue most of his strikes are kicks and he still avoids takedowns. So, as for Coleman, the reason why "he hasnt taken anyone down lately" is because of his age, not the level of opponents...you know he has lost alot at 41 years old.

[Panzerfaust]

Kerr vs Fedor under Vale Tudo = Kerr in a coma!

Kerr was a control machine in ADCC, Fedor has better TD defense than some think but what happens if you get him down, he has awesome submissions and has proven that several times now. And if he could'nt sub Kerr (i think he could) he would at least be able to get out from under him...you gotta remember just how explosive Fedor is..its insane the explosions he displays.

Kerr is a class act and one of the nicest guys around, he is retired now and we are left to speculate. One thing is for sure he was a "Specimen".

[catabolic kid]

Kerr vs Fedor under Vale Tudo = Kerr in a coma!

Kerr was a control machine in ADCC, Fedor has better TD defense than some think but what happens if you get him down, he has awesome submissions and has proven that several times now. And if he could'nt sub Kerr (i think he could) he would at least be able to get out from under him...you gotta remember just how explosive Fedor is..its insane the explosions he displays.

Kerr is a class act and one of the nicest guys around, he is retired now and we are left to speculate. One thing is for sure he was a "Specimen".

I agree with that...I couldnt believe how he got from underneath Randleman and also Noguierra...that was amazing....what is with this guy, how can he do these things!

[Panzerfaust]

Even Bas said "they took all of the weapons of KERR away" The elbows made a bigg difference in Kerrs ground and pound...look at how easy the guys in UFC ground and Pound.

Now, you know when you are 40 years old (Coleman) that your takedowns will not be as fast as they once were. I dont think that Coleman (Olympic Wrestler) would have trouble taking down Cro Cop when he was in his prime. I will say that Cro Cop has an amazing takedown defense...probably better than most people realize. I say this becasue he is more vulnerable than most strikers becasue most of his strikes are kicks and he still avoids takedowns. So, as for Coleman, the reason why "he hasnt taken anyone down lately" is because of his age, not the level of opponents...you know he has lost alot at 41 years old.

Of course a "prime" Coleman might have found t easier but there are to many variables to take in account such as Colemans fear of CroCop's ability and did you not hear what Coleman said after the fight? "That guy is an amazing athlete and is so strong, i take my hat off to him".

Coleman is such a cool cat man, he truly knew he was outmatched but he like so many other fighters cannot get the "competitive itch" out of themselves.

It is always interesting to speculate but in reality there are just to many variables to factor in such as Coleman back then did not have any standup at all (in this case CroCop or Fedor would only have to worry about the shoot)he started showing signs of improvement in the 2000 GP.

Like i said above, in reality all CroCop was looking for was the shoot as he knew Coleman posed no threat at all standing and Coleman was so weary of CroCop's striking that it forced him to shoot from way out when in fact the key to get CroCop down is to get in a clinch and take him down from there ala Wanderlei & Fedor.

I will try to upload this fight and get it posted if you like.

[catabolic kid]

My friend brought up a funny maybe very very long shot but plausable theory. We all know Coleman has threw a fight before and shogun and silva said they had a predetermined outcome if they both made it the GP finals. This could be a work I mean Coleman has no career left and DSE could be using this fight to push Shogun over as a legit heavyweight. I dont believe this just a thought becouse I dont think Shogun needs a payoff to beat Coleman. Just a thought a friend had on a side note he is a complete wackjob.

Not a bad thought, but Shogun wins with brutal KO's or TKO's. You cannot fake these in MMA. Takada was getting his ass kicked and then got the heel hook on Coleman. So, if this fight coming up was a work it would have to be by submission and that is not Shoguns game and also not what the fans want. Anyway, Shogun will beat the 41 year old version of mark coleman.

[Panzerfaust]

I agree with that...I couldnt believe how he got from underneath Randleman and also Noguierra...that was amazing....what is with this guy, how can he do these things!

I will try to post a clip of Fedor training, his upper body explosions are downright ****ing scary..watch him if he gets in a bad position how he just explodes out of it...like when CroCop almost had his back from a standing position and he just explodes forward and CroCop nearly falls over from the force.

Remember Fedor's background is Judo and Combat Sambo.

[catabolic kid]

[QUOTE=muriloninja]Of course a "prime" Coleman might have found t easier but there are to many variables to take in account such as Colemans fear of CroCop's ability and did you not hear what Coleman said after the fight? "That guy is an amazing athlete and is so strong, i take my hat off to him".

Coleman is such a cool cat man, he truly knew he was outmatched but he like so many other fighters cannot get the "competitive itch" out of themselves.

It is always interesting to speculate but in reality there are just to many variables to factor in such as Coleman back then did not have any standup at all (in this case CroCop or Fedor would only have to worry about the shoot)he started showing signs of improvement in the 2000 GP.

Like i said above, in reality all CroCop was looking for was the shoot as he knew Coleman posed no threat at all standing and Coleman was so weary of CroCop's striking that it forced him to shoot from way out when in fact the key to get CroCop down is to get in a clinch and take him down from there ala Wanderlei & Fedor.

I will try to upload this fight and get it posted if you like

Cro cop is a great athlete very strong...even in the clinch he is hard to get down...Randleman couldnt get him down from the clinch. His athletic ability is what has separated him from the others fighting in K-1 who try to come to MMA. Again, I just want peopel to understand that Coleman is not what he once was and I feel alot of the fights he is loosing today he would not have lost yesterday, so to speak....not to say you are not aware of this, just some people overlook it.

[catabolic kid]

I will try to post a clip of Fedor training, his upper body explosions are downright ****ing scary..watch him if he gets in a bad position how he just explodes out of it...like when CroCop almost had his back from a standing position and he just explodes forward and CroCop nearly falls over from the force.

Remember Fedor's background is Judo and Combat Sambo.

Russians are the leaders in strength and conditioning...Fedor is training hard, but workingout even smarter!

[Panzerfaust]

Ok, here is a clip of Fedor training and some fight footage, watch it all as his training regimen is scattered throughout the video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...618442&q=Fedor


Watch Fedor over extend himself in the Ogawa clip and immediately explodes backwards sending Ogawa's big ass down. lol

Also the resistance he uses when practicing throws which is specifically designed to make you more explosive. Not to mention that old school training, i like the clip of him hitting the tire with a sledge hammer.

[catabolic kid]

Ok, here is a clip of Fedor training and some fight footage, watch it all as his training regimen is scattered throughout the video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...618442&q=Fedor


Watch Fedor over extend himself in the Ogawa clip and immediately explodes backwards sending Ogawa's big ass down. lol

Also the resistance he uses when practicing throws which is specifically designed to make you more explosive. Not to mention that old school training, i like the clip of him hitting the tire with a sledge hammer.

That is exactly what I mean, there are many plyometric exercises that can improve your striking power and all aspects of fighting. Fedor is doing all of these things. I have read about hitting tires with a sledge hammer on BBing.com.

I will download the video now, but my comp takes a long time.

[Panzerfaust]

He uses the hammer to make his Gnp strikes fast and strong, i like how that video shows the training and then how it is applied in a fight.

[Hunter]

Not a bad thought, but Shogun wins with brutal KO's or TKO's. You cannot fake these in MMA. Takada was getting his ass kicked and then got the heel hook on Coleman. So, if this fight coming up was a work it would have to be by submission and that is not Shoguns game and also not what the fans want. Anyway, Shogun will beat the 41 year old version of mark coleman.

This is not my theory at all. I figured muay thia clinch to botched takedown by coleman to soccor kicks and stomps ala ref stoppage. I mean people forget how big of a 205 pounder shogun is. This is not like Ninja moving up, I read in an interview that Silva said Shogun cut the most on the team to make 205. Also after this fight I firmly believe he will add more muscle to his frame and with his insane cardio he will be a force at heavyweight in a couple of years. He is just entering his prime now I think 2 years we will see a heavyweight force with Shogun. As you can tell by my avivator huge shogun fan. I firmly believe this kid is the future of mma.

[catabolic kid]

This is not my theory at all. I figured muay thia clinch to botched takedown by coleman to soccor kicks and stomps ala ref stoppage. I mean people forget how big of a 205 pounder shogun is. This is not like Ninja moving up, I read in an interview that Silva said Shogun cut the most on the team to make 205. Also after this fight I firmly believe he will add more muscle to his frame and with his insane cardio he will be a force at heavyweight in a couple of years. He is just entering his prime now I think 2 years we will see a heavyweight force with Shogun. As you can tell by my avivator huge shogun fan. I firmly believe this kid is the future of mma.

Ok, I see, yeah, Shogun is amazing, I am a huge fan of Coleman and I really dont want to see him in this fight...it will not be pretty. It would be a good fight if Colmean was in his prime. I know people are tired of talking about coleman not being in his prime, but it is true I just want to emphasize that fact after saying I think Shogun will win.

[Hunter]

Ok, I see, yeah, Shogun is amazing, I am a huge fan of Coleman and I really dont want to see him in this fight...it will not be pretty. It would be a good fight if Colmean was in his prime. I know people are tired of talking about coleman not being in his prime, but it is true I just want to emphasize that fact after saying I think Shogun will win.

You have to have mad respect for you sticking with your guy he brough GnP to the table. I just wish to see Coleman retiring on a high note, I mean just one last decent win for him to leave on. I know you might jump me but I really think he could have prolonged his career if had not abused steriods the way he is did. I know I know lots of guys use them but look at guys like Coleman(now),Shamrock(now). I think it really takes a toll on an athlete later on. Also if you know Coleman or anything tell him to give up on Wes "the neverending project" Simms for me

[catabolic kid]

Wes " the neverending project" Simms...ha ha ha!
I also wish to see Coleman leave on a high note, he won his last fight, so he is still feeling confident.

[catabolic kid]

Murilo, I started downloading that fight 1.5 hours ago and it is only half way into the download!! My computer is unbelievably slow at downloads. The first half of the video is really interesting to watch. Fedor works 24/7, I know this guy has to pay attention to every aspect of his game from his MA technique, strength training and endurance all the way to recovery through diet and nutrition. He is serious!

[Panzerfaust]

Actually i don't think Fedor focuses as much on diet as you would think..somewhere in an interview he said something lke this..cannot remember where?

[USfighterFC]

He said he doesnt give a shit about his diet, he just stays away from sweets and extra fatty stuff. Other than that I believe he said he eats everything in site.

[Panzerfaust]

He said he doesnt give a shit about his diet, he just stays away from sweets and extra fatty stuff. Other than that I believe he said he eats everything in site.

Yeah, i am sure his diet is good by "normal" standards but he has no interest in looking at the cutting stickie.