To Hell With Physical Correctness

[Dr. Derek]

Women’s bodybuilding is to blame for this, of course, having imbued me with a sort of sexual snobbery. When I had “normal” tastes, the conventional standards of beauty were satisfactory. It seems odd to think that those malnourished models and pneumatic playmates once represented to me physical near perfection. Now that I look for muscle fullness and definition, they suddenly feel deficient. I wonder how Pamela Anderson would look with an extra 50 lbs of muscle. I’d much rather look at Valentina Chepiga or Yaxen Oriquen. Even this new class in the NPC, “Ms. Figure” are a serious dilution of the real thing. Many people say to me women bodybuilders look gross, most from outside our sport, I look at them, smile, biting my tongue. “different tastes”. They say to me you actually like women who look like that? You Betcha. These statements have to be made and I make them without hesitation, even if it rankles “polite” society. If muscular women are ever going to be accepted as anything more than an odd curiosity, it is going to take more men to openly express admiration and, yes, even preference for muscular women.

This new NPC class “Ms Figure”, is nothing more than an exhibition of T & A, these shows are enjoyable at times, but they are far from what bodybuilding should be about. In my opinion they wreck the mood at a bodybuilding competition and would more appropriately be held along with a beauty contest. Despite what the magazines potray most male bodybuilders on not attracted to female bodybuilders. Very few of the grinning muscular studs that we se smiling in the magazines enjoy women more physically formidable than say Marla Duncan. Of course neither do most of the magazine publishers. This must be part of being a “real man”. Me Tarzan you Jane. This is why we keep seeing the prize money lowered and lowered for professional female bodybuilders, they are simply according to the magazines, just not marketable. So I want to applaud those women who have thus far resisted it. They are years ahead of their time and should know that, commercial viability notwithstanding, those who accept them as they are probably are the only ones whose opinions are worth considering.

So if you ever given a survey that ask you to describe your perfect women, may be you should write…
------good with children
------good with the in-laws
and of course always feel compelled to write.
------good with a squat rack.

DD

[MIKE_XXL]

I must say i give at most admiration and respect to all female bodybuilders and male as well, i know what it takes to get into a great shape and take the development of your body to that level (which i haven't reached yet...), the amount of work, dedication, time, sacrafices and money you have to poor into phisiques of the champions is beyond most peoples imaginations. It takes long years of hard work to achive what they do...all though i don't find some of the bigger woman atractive, i do agree that playboy bunnies have absolutely nothing on most of those woman. (tid bit: did you know that most Bulimic/anorexics are still 20% body fat...???...)

Rant on Dr.D....................LOL....................XXL

[Dr. Derek]

Hey they deserve as much attention as the fella's get is pretty much all I'm saying and if people keep asking me why women look like that, I'm eventually gonna tell them, because they dont want to look like you, Fatttttttttttt..........

Felt like ranting tonight, so thats what I've done sorry if it offends anyone. Your attracted to what your attracted to but these girls need and demand respect period.

[MIKE_XXL]

100% agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's alway the people most out of shape that say the dumbest things and ask the stupidest questions...

Hey Dr.D, you are 263lbs, i'm not gona tell you to stop ranting...LOL...i'm stupid but not that stupid, you only have a 10 hour drive to where i'm live...and i like having only one crack on my ass..........don't need one on my head...LOL...

XXL

[BIG R]

It makes me mad to no end when I hear people put down the Female Bodybuilders in the sport. Most of the time the people doing all of the bad mouthing don't have the slightest clue to how much work that these women put in at the gym with HEAVY WEIGHTS. They are all hard core in my book! And they deserve just as much respect as any bodybuilder. I also agree with Doc. Derek complaint on the prize money being slashed to less than half. Don't these women deserve to win equal pay? Maybe that is why Kim Chizevsky-Nicholls crossed over to fitness. Her body transformation was nothing short of astounding. It costs much less to eat to maintain a fitness physique and probably requires less secondary supliments.
I myself was humbled by the size of Betty Pariso's Guns when I saw them last month as I competed in her show. I have not seen too many men at my gym sporting the absolutely impressive hamstring sweep that Jennifer McVicar has.
OK, the New Figure Class is absolutely NUTS! At the South West USA 23 figure girls showed up and they only had room for 5. The winner had Jessica Rabbits' dimensions. Like it or not, the women that can't tumble like a level 10 gymnast or want Vicky Gates incredible body have something to work with.
The Fitness gals get my respect because of how DAM TIGHT they get. To be on basically the same diet that I use to ready for a competition and fly around on stage like they do is a mystery. I'm lucky I don't lose balance hitting a side chest.
So whatever it is you want to do with the whole sport of bodybuilding and fitness GO FOR IT. Don't let anyone talk you down.
My hat is off to the Women. This all take guts to do, either you have it or you don't!

Big R.

[primodonna]

Mike...are you saying you don't like me? hmmmmmmmm?????

[MIKE_XXL]

I like you Primo, no worries here...................XXL

[MIKE_XXL]

...I just don't like you being bigger them me...LOL...XXL

[silverfox]

Have to agree w/ you guys, who wants 5'10" 110lbs model look, much sooner see a fit tonned women or BBers. I have to say like Dr. D i admire women in this sport, they get even less credit than the men by far, and have to work bit harder to get into contest shape and build muscle(usually). They deserve mor credit, but both men and women bbers are hard to promote to gernal public, no question.

[livnnfit]

"Figure contest are nothing more than T&A"

I have to disagree. As a fitness competitor I think you have no idea what we do to get ready for a show whether it be for fitness or figure. I think although the diet for fitness athlethes might not be as tough (although I think mine is) or as long as for bodybuilders are sport requires a lot of work. That means getting up at 5:00am to fit in morning cardio sessions, routine practices (way more demanding than going through mandatory poses), work, workouts (and yes we do train heavy) and evening cardio sessions. Have you ever tried some of the holds or strength moves that we do? Maybe if you tried you would learn to appreciate our sport a little more. Fitness athlethes keep the sport of bodybuilding going because women bodybuilders are being forced to get bigger and leaner and that does not appeal to the average person. They want to see a body thats muscular and strong yet still feminine and sexy. This is of no disrespect to women bodyubuilders as I like the look of muscles on women but I am just saying that you shouldn't discorage them from being part of the bodybuilding sport as we train and eat and go through the same show prep as bodybuilders we just choose not to bring our bodies to those extremes.

[primodonna]

He didn't say fitness....he said figure...and in the NPC, figure is the 1-piece and 2-piece swimsuit rounds and that's it...nothing else

What the idea was (so they say) when it originated was for the women who still look like athletes AND TRAIN and know what dieting is but aren't gymnasts to be able to compete in something...it is turning into a "who has the biggest tits and the nicest ass" competition with NO regards to what the judging criteria says

When you have winners at state level shows that have never touched a weight in their lives, (by their own admission) what good does that do for the sport?

And from the sounds of it, your comment "they want to see a body that's muscular and strong but still feminine and sexy" you don't think you can be a female bodybuilder and be feminine and sexy...now who needs to understand the other's sport???

And no offense, but trying to hold a pose (that would be flexing every single muscle you have and some you didn't even know you had) for as long as you have to when you haven't had any water for more than 30 hours, no food, your entire body is a cramp...isn't as EASY as people who haven't done it think..even when you are "practicing" your mandatories, it's not a fucking walk in the park...and most (female) bb'ers do just as much (if not more) cardio per day as fitness competitors

Don't get me wrong, i have a LOT of respect for you and other fitness competitors who DO train, diet and work their asses off with their routines...day in and day out...i have seen day by day and been through some friend's of mine (fitness) prep for national shows...so my comments aren't from an innocent bystander

[silverfox]

Not to gang up, but i think primo statement kinda is what Dr. D meant. Kinda like reading MD and looking at the "fitness Modles" ( not taking anything away from them, just big difference is how they train eat diet) vs flex who puts fintness competitors in their shots. BIG BIG difference, i think.

[primodonna]

Damnit e_c, you could have saved me a lot of time if you had posted that before me

[Pete235]

I've shared my view on this many times....women with muscles are stunning! Straight up! And I am not sucking up to our female members with that staement. Not only am I physically attracted to a woman who busts her ass in the gym in persuit of larger, fuller, thicker muscle bellies but I experience a sense of kinship. The love of the iron, the dieting, the education and the need to keep pushing harder, transcends the male/female architypes and inherant physical differences between us and we become equals.

[silverfox]

Sorry primo, but i hear you need practice typing...lol

Kinda like who pete? Pro with initals.. VC by any chance.... :-)

If you can't tell bored out my tree here today...

[Dr. Derek]

Originally posted by livnnfit
"Figure contest are nothing more than T&A"

Have you ever tried some of the holds or strength moves that we do? Maybe if you tried you would learn to appreciate our sport a little more. Fitness athlethes keep the sport of bodybuilding going because women bodybuilders are being forced to get bigger and leaner and that does not appeal to the average person. They want to see a body thats muscular and strong yet still feminine and sexy. This is of no disrespect to women bodyubuilders as I like the look of muscles on women but I am just saying that you shouldn't discorage them from being part of the bodybuilding sport as we train and eat and go through the same show prep as bodybuilders we just choose not to bring our bodies to those extremes.

I know all to well about FITNESS COMPETITORS, I train and do diets for five competing fitness competitors. I have judged several local and regional bodybuilding shows and I tell ya judging the figure portion is the pain in the ass. Fitness on the other hand is fine, the women have defined muscle and are athletic, thier something to compare against. Thier diet is just as hard as BBer's and the trianing is probably tougher, thus I would never discourage any organization from running a fitness show with a bodybulding show. What I discourage is figure portions, it simply ridiculous. It totally ruins the mood. Ask just about any national level NPC Judge wether he or she like to judge the figure portion of the show, and if they have any balls they will tell you it simply does not belong at a bodybuilding show. No disrespect intended to figure but IMO it does not belong where it is...

[ann]

I got so excited when I first heard about figure. I figured it was hard, muscular bods, without all the posing and routines to remember.

It's really a shame the direction it has taken.

[dieslgrl]

are you guys for real??? I mean.. where are you in MY world then???? sheesh! I get stared at, talked about, mocked, etc etc! This is usually from a younger crowd, yet still few truely appreciate what I do, and the look I have.. sometimes I try to convince myself, maybe I should just try to tone down my size a little bit.. and then I wake up... I will NOT succomb to what these men set as our standards! I have always been extremely muscular (even before I trained with weights)-- So, I am going with it...

Do olympic shot put female throwers give a damn if society thinks they are sexy? how about those softball players, or any other female athlete for that matter... Female bb's are athletes and the fact that we can fight the harsh words to do what we do, shows you have to have a true love for the sport...

I wish more people felt that way, but I am afraid that female bb's will forever be labeled as freaks.

I am lucky to have a boyfriend that is very turned on by the fact that I am so passionate about bb... he isn't even a bb, and that is great for me...(I have found too much competition, not enough similarities outside the gym dating other bb's.) What people have to realize is that (most) bodybuilders are not bodybuilders they are a person who happens to bodybuild and be very dedicated and passionate about what they do...

I must admit on the other side of things is that I am happy to see that the standards for female bb's are changing.. I would have never stepped into the sport had it continued on the path it was going...

my .02
dg

[PTbyJason]

I am totally with everyone on this thread. I admire female bodybuilders and fitness competitors for the work they do in order to get in the shape they are in. I have walked out on the figure round of 2 bodybuilding competitions already this year. I see no point in it. The last show I went to there were over 20 competitors in the figure and it took forever for them to all walk across the stage and just stand there. Now I did get an eye opening look from someone who does figure. They told me that they use to do fitness competitions and because there body was beginning to break down from the years of competing in fitness so now they are doing figure. So in that sense I can understand the purpose of figure, but I don't think it fits in with the bodybuilding competitions.

[bigtraps]

I have to say that I really hear what DG is saying....about woman being labled as, i hate to say it bot,"freaks". That bothers me extremely!
For real.... To be in my shoes looking out, I see the passion JG is talking about, something that I believe I understand. I have nothing but admiration for those woman that have that ultimate dedication for something I know they feel so passionate for.
I have totally found myself to be more attrated to a muscular frame. I think that is because, I to have the same love of the sport.
DG btw, sorry to mistake you for primo. It cought me off guard, I think there are some similarity.

thats my .02

[livnnfit]

I'm only stating my opinion on Figure as I plan on competing in that division in November. I think it's a good idea for girls who don't have gymnastics background therefore feel they can't compete with the gymnasts routines and they don't have enough muscle size to compete in bodybuilding. I think some competitors take it seriously and train hard and diet. (I think it was BuffChick who posted amazing pics taken before her figure show). Figure shows around my area include posing with open hands and/or routines that are permitted not to use gymnastics in them.

Primo - I know that flexing on stage is very hard, and that holding poses for a long time is very tiring and taxing and causes cramps. I have never underestimated the work that BB's put in for show training.

[primodonna]

Originally posted by livnnfit
Figure shows around my area include posing with open hands and/or routines that are permitted not to use gymnastics in them.

This is what some of the small, natural organizations do over here and it is what i thought the NPC meant when it was thinking about Figure but it's not even close...

Here's an example of what happened at our competitor's meeting after a question asked by one the figure competitors (they didn't even know what they were supposed do before that morning) regarding what they do at the night show...The head judge said "just get up there, walk to the center and do whatever you want...if you like the music, start dancing...if you don't like it, just do a few quarter turns and walk off the stage"

[Cycleon]

I must confess knowing very little about comps - But I also really wonder the purpose of figure contests - fitness makes sense, FBB makes sense, since with either one of those it obviously requires a lot of work and dedication to get there - but the pics I see of figure girls seem more appropriate for a beauty contest without them having to obsequiously gush how they want to save the worlds children.

Its true that the Andrulla look just doesnt do it for me at all - but neither does the twiggy (anorexic sticks) look that most 'gorgeous" models have. Now the ideal of how men and women "should" look no doubt derives from their traditional function within society. Men typically had to lift stuff, work in jobs that required long physical endurance and in general required that he be "strong" in a number of ways. Women have traditionally required attributes related to child bearing (thus the attractiveness of big hips and tits) and the ability to easily store fat due to necessity due to food scarecity over time periods - as well as this, they became a representation of "the home" with the sagicity and the emotional and physical endurance that it takes to provide that atmosphere for the family - thus the association with "beauty".

The animal world automatically selects similar traits when in the mating process in order to ensure survival of the species and it is an instinctual trait. We are certainly able to overlook animalistic instincts but it is for this reason perhaps that we make similar choices - it has been shown that women typically will chose, if shown a range of facial pictures, men who look more "rugged", with harder jaw lines and a more muscular face (indicative of higher testosterone ) over those with rounded features (more girlish) - with jjust the opposite for men.

Now on top of that we have the societal interpretation of the day of what beauty or strength means - for example, htere was a time not too far distant when some societies preferred women to be quite fat by todays standards - and this is represented bey most of the classic paintings - but notice it is only of the upper class. Lower class, feild women were usually thinner and tanned - thus the desireability of pasty white skin denoting prosperity. when the fitness crave hit it changed our definition of what "fit" women were - if you look at the old pictures of film stars of the 40s adn see that teh hourglass shape was in those women would be deemed to not be in shape by todays standards. And we will leave out such mentiones as the effect of binding dresses or as in china, crippling their feet.

Now the question is how the world will see beuty tommorow - and that depends upon how it is presented to day - if the top women of BB can show that their figures somehow enhance their capabilities of "femaleness" and their potential of carrying out their role in society - in time a very muscular female physique may become more accepted and even preferred - if it is seen as a "manly" trait though, they will continue to have difficulty gaining the acceptance tehy so desire from mainstream society. Fortuneately, in teh future, due to new advances in science and awareness of nutritional needs, our society (western ones anyway) are likely to become more muscular as a norm - just as with the advent of nutritional eating (especially during pre-pubecence) that has come of age in this century, the population has probably normed to an additional 3-4" in stature, whereas the average third world citizen is still rather short - not necessarily due to genetics but more like ly to nutrition - which will feed the genetices of the next generation. and lets not even get into genetics.......

[Dr. Derek]

Now I would go for a figure class where the girls pose, many federations have figure girls pose and even do routines. Most routines have little if no gymnastic moves ie the NABBA organization. Alls I say is that the judging criteria for a NPC figure is such bullshit. The NPC IMO is way out of line introducing this class at a bodybuilding show.

They walk on stage, due so called quarter turns, and they are off. Let me tell ya it is very difficult and time consuming if you have 20 girls on stage and you have to judge them based on the below criteria. The girls are only supposed to show minimal muscle, with maxium shape, and NO STRAIATIONS. If they show any type of muscle definition or hardness, judges are suppose to penalize them for that, which is very hard for me to do, because that is a sign that the person at least diets and does workout. Every figure show I have watched and judged, the female I have placed #1 has never placed higher than 3rd.

Now I will do alittle NPC bashing, IMO the only reason this class was added, sorry to say, was to up ticket sales. It is all money based, do you really think that Demilla could give a shit wether a female can do a split or a straddle hold, so his excuse of starting this class is Bullshit. His sole purpose is to keep the NPC/IFBB on top of all other federations, this is marked by ticket sales and attendance at there shows.

What do we have next if this does not work, strippers on stage, well maybe that would be better at least they could show off thier athleticism. Just blowing off a little steam, sorry to bore y'all.

[primodonna]

Originally posted by Dr. Derek
What do we have next if this does not work, strippers on stage

Too late...you should have seen the classes here the past 3 shows

Maybe if they put a brass pole in the center of the stage they would know what to do

[BIG R]

Primo..........YOU KNOW all of the all-nude BYOD open till 4AM bars were closed that night! LOL I wanted to put a dollar on the stage and see what happened.

I'm just kiddin' I'm going to get myself in trouble.

BIG R

[PWROF2]

Hey guys, I am new to the board and hail from little New Zealand. Over her we have two main BB organisations: NABBA & NZFBB. Anyway the NABBA org has both figure and physique womens classes. Obvious distinction between them is the level of muscularity. Both classes have to do compulsory and symmetry rounds as well as a posing routine. Works well and good however all the physique classes are dimishing and the figure classes growing. Is this an indication that A) women are finding the figure classes less intimidating for first timers and therfore are more tempted to do a BB comp or B) The "public" impression of women as BB'ers as unattractive has entered into our organisations and is eroding the quality of the physiques.
My opinion? It worries me that the girls who are truly dedicated to the BB way i.e. bigger is better will soon have nowhere to display the results of their labour.
We have few (if any) really quality women BB'ers over here. Are we behind the times or a sign of things to come????

[Dr. Derek]

PWROF2, you are unfortunately a sign of the times, Female bodybuilding/ bodybuilders are decreasing in numbers significantly all over the world. IMO I think it is do to the fact that society refuses to accept muscular women as a part of the norm. Shit even women who are muscular fitness contestants get the Gawk where ever they go, let alone being a female BB. Thank god for those women who refuse to give in to normality. I Personally thank them all.

[Hoopwxf]

You don't know how happy it makes me to here these views. I strive for the bodybuilding look and am WELL away from it but still I get the disrespectfull looks the stupid comments etc. It makes me sick how the standard person can be so F***ing close minded and weak. The comments I get now just make me more pissed off and more determined to lift heavier and harder. And I pray that more girls will ignore the stupid comments and will reach there planned goals, don't let those weak pricks deter you. The more that we do it, the more it is in thier faces. They will have to except it and appreciate it one day as long as we don't give up.

[The French Curler]

I truly respect female bodybuilders for all the hard work they do, and all the shit they take.

[dieslgrl]

AMEN!

[MIKE_XXL]

I have to give this post a BIG F*CKIN" BUMP straight up to the top...i retract all of my coments in defense of Figure class, as my wife has just competed in it for the first time and was told she was to big, she is 5'7" with 140lbs of very symetricly distributed muscle, you guys have seen her pics so you know what i am talking about, she was told her color was to dark, she wasn't symetrical and was to musclular, the plaing went backwards the girl that should have been 3rd, 4th and 5th placed 1st, 2nd and 3rd, it was total BS in my personal opinion there is no room in bodybuilding contests for a beauty contest they already have a bikini contests at the bar, these girls looked anarexic and as if the workout to Cindy Crawford work out video, and probably are the same woman who do leg press with 10lbs a side...anyway i am a little bit pissed here as you can see, and needed to rant....sorry to Dr.D and Primo for the stupid f*ckin' argument i was trying to make in my previouse posts here...thanks for listenning...XXL

[livnnfit]

Hey guys/gals - this is aimed mainly toward Dr. D & Primo. I just competed in my first figure show on Saturday after being persuaded by the co-promoters of the show who like myself thought my physique was perfect for figure (muscluar, symmetrical, lean by not overly vascualar or big). I have always done very well in physique rounds and thought figure was for girls that had a body crossed between bodybuilding and fitness but struggled with a routine. I was wrong. I was told I have to decide between bodybuilding and fitness(they recommended I join a gymnastic club and learn back handsprings) as there was no place for me in Figure because I was too hard and muscluar? So now I have to be gymnast or bulk up and be a bodybuilder? I can see why you wouldn't want these girls to be in your shows when you much so much hard work and dedication into getting ready and they have girls come out to "fancy up the stage as the MC said". Many of the girls looked like they didn'y diet for the show or haven't eaten a meal in a few months. These types of physiques in my opinion do not represent fitness or health.

[Cycleon]

thats sad - and shortsighted of whoever runs these things - I would bet that there is a large population of women who would be interested in competing and have a muscular build but who arent interested in getting heavy enough to be in BB class - a lot of women today are getting in better shape and not afraid to do some wieght trainging - but if its only about T&A, why call it anything related to excercise? and be honest enought to say beauty contest.

[Dr. Derek]

I hate to say it but it sounds like the judges followed the correct proceedure and the placings were right. YOU CANT HAVE VISIBLE MUSCLE, YOU CANT BE VASCULAR AT ALL, YOU MUST HAVE NICE TITS AND A VERY ROUND ASS AND BODY WITH SHAPE. Its boils down when placing figure contestants as who the judges want to most screw. This is sad, thats why they should have a entirely seperate contest for figure. Maybe it will change at the national level but for now figure shows really suck to compete in.

IMO Livenft you should be kicking ass in fitness, learn how to do a back handspring or 15 walk overs in a row and go out there and kick some ass.