"Time" as the fourth dimension?

**IronCellChemist** · 11-07-2004, 01:16 AM

I came across an interesting theory recently. It seems very likely that time could be the 4th dimension. We know time exists yet we can't physically see or touch it. Much like a two dimensional creature would imagine the 3rd dimension. Time would be a complex form of visual surroundings that would blind you if it were possible to enter. Looking down you would see the present through all dimensions, looking foward the future would evolve before you, and behind would be the past. If you were to move backwards through it and change an event, at the exact moment, your present self would have no need to change it. This in itself would make it impossible right?

**Matrix78** · 11-07-2004, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by IronCellChemist

I came across an interesting theory recently. It seems very likely that time could be the 4th dimension. We know time exists yet we can't physically see or touch it. Much like a two dimensional creature would imagine the 3rd dimension. Time would be a complex form of visual surroundings that would blind you if it were possible to enter. Looking down you would see the present through all dimensions, looking foward the future would evolve before you, and behind would be the past. If you were to move backwards through it and change an event, at the exact moment, your present self would have no need to change it. This in itself would make it impossible right?

i was told back in grade school time was the 4th dim i dont think thats anything new, and i belive what your discribing at the end is a paradox, and if you can time travel then you can have a paradox and then you would have to consider alternate realities where ever possible choice you could make is made in another reality

**IronCellChemist** · 11-07-2004, 02:14 AM

Do you have an opionion on zero point energy by way of quantum vacuum. Some say devices are already in the works and are being covered up by certain covert government shadow organizations through assassination and huge payoffs.This would make sense considering the consequences of an unlimited energy source. Cold fusion could be another answer, check out Chain Reaction with Keanu Reaves. Although fiction, it stimulates the imagination and shows the concept behind the frequencies and the power availiblity that makes it a threat.

Cheers

**SwoleCat** · 11-07-2004, 07:24 AM

U could always watch Back to the Future.

I think the Doc was on to something! I don't think Wal-Mart has plutonium though.

~SC~

**Psychotron** · 11-07-2004, 08:40 AM

Ever read the book the Slaughter House 5? Well in the book the guy is abducted by aliens, and they could see in the 4th Dimension. Which meant they could see through time, and would already know when things would happen.

**UrbanLegend** · 11-07-2004, 09:14 AM

If you think about it, its really obvious that time is the fourth dimension. We have our three dimensions of which we can move about in, but there is another dimension that is always moving.....time. It would be like if we had a graph with 4 axis, if you were standing still then you would not show you moving along three of the axis, but the one that reprensents time would constantly be moving. Does that make sense? I'm not very internet eloquent so I have hard time explaining things really well on here.........

**Psychotron** · 11-07-2004, 10:10 AM

The fourth dimension is all space that one can get to by travelling in a direction perpendicular to three-dimensional space.

**NotSmall** · 11-07-2004, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by IronCellChemist

Some say devices are already in the works and are being covered up by certain covert government shadow organizations through assassination and huge payoffs.

'Some' say Elvis is still alive.

**SwoleCat** · 11-07-2004, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by NotSmall

'Some' say Elvis is still alive.

Wait a minute!!

He's not???

What the f*cK!?!?!?!

~SC~

**MMC78** · 11-07-2004, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by IronCellChemist

I came across an interesting theory recently. It seems very likely that time could be the 4th dimension. We know time exists yet we can't physically see or touch it. Much like a two dimensional creature would imagine the 3rd dimension. Time would be a complex form of visual surroundings that would blind you if it were possible to enter. Looking down you would see the present through all dimensions, looking foward the future would evolve before you, and behind would be the past. If you were to move backwards through it and change an event, at the exact moment, your present self would have no need to change it. This in itself would make it impossible right?

Time can be viewed as a 4th dimension.

It is not a spatial dimension. All evidence supports that the standard idea of traveling backwards in time is not possible.

**samoth** · 11-07-2004, 02:05 PM

We live in four dimensions of space and time collectively known as spacetime.

A dimension is a degree of freedom, hence why time is a dimension. I'm not sure what people are talking about on this thread, as time is one of the four dimensions we currently reside in, and has been considered such for centuries.

Discussing physics and making analogies to movies at the same time... now I see why I don't know what you're talking about here. Hate to tell you, but movies aren't real. Most movies don't obey the laws of physics, either. Turn off the TV and pick up a book.

**Red Ketchup** · 11-07-2004, 03:23 PM

Huh!? What?

You mean Superman didn't really fly around the earth at light speed to go back in time?

Actually a topic I love is subjective time dilation from traveling faster than light.

Say you have a spaceship that travels faster than light.
You go to another solar system which is 10 light years away. Now you have a spaceship that can travel faster than light. In this spaceship it takes you 1 month to get to your target, but back on earth it takes years and years.

In theory, thru time dilation you could embark on a journey to another star and come back to earth having aged only a few months or years, yet the earth you left behind is many many generations older.

Not time travel per say, but fascinating!

Red

**MMC78** · 11-07-2004, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

Say you have a spaceship that travels faster than light.
You go to another solar system which is 10 light years away. Now you have a spaceship that can travel faster than light. In this spaceship it takes you 1 month to get to your target, but back on earth it takes years and years.

In theory, thru time dilation you could embark on a journey to another star and come back to earth having aged only a few months or years, yet the earth you left behind is many many generations older.

1. You can't go faster than light.
2. You don't need to go faster than light to have the affect you want.

**Red Ketchup** · 11-07-2004, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by MMC78

1. You can't go faster than light.
2. You don't need to go faster than light to have the affect you want.

1 - We can't yet (tuut tuut!!! never say never!)

2 - I know, but the effect would be quite amplified when you blow C out of the water

Red

**FCECC2** · 11-07-2004, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

1 - We can't yet (tuut tuut!!! never say never!)

2 - I know, but the effect would be quite amplified when you blow C out of the water

Red

yah but trying to make a particle travel near the speed of light would need almost all the energy in the universe. just ask einstein about it

**Red Ketchup** · 11-07-2004, 04:04 PM

Ahhh Einstein Schmeinstein! Don't take my dreams away from me with your reality!

Red

**Dude-Man** · 11-07-2004, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by TRLS63

yah but trying to make a particle travel near the speed of light would need almost all the energy in the universe. just ask einstein about it

they've detected pulsars that move at 60% of c. That's pretty ****ing fast for a mass that huge.

**IronCellChemist** · 11-07-2004, 04:40 PM

Excellent responses, exactly what I was hoping for. Now think about this. Edwin A. Abbott wrote a novel called Flatland. Here is the concept.
We as 3D beings are living in a 2D universe. To the flat beings we are like gods. We can perform surgery on them by reaching directly into them without cutting them open. We could pick them up and place them in another location. It would seem to them as though they were teleporting. Now apply this same concept to our world. I believe traveling great distances, space travel, will be possible through accessing a 4th time dimension. This is how you get around the speed of light problem. Anti-gravity propulsion systems could also be another way and probably more realistic. This second concept would also
solve the worlds energy problems. Check out ZPE, we are closer to it than some might think.

Cheers

**saboudian** · 11-07-2004, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

Huh!? What?

You mean Superman didn't really fly around the earth at light speed to go back in time?

Actually a topic I love is subjective time dilation from traveling faster than light.

Say you have a spaceship that travels faster than light.
You go to another solar system which is 10 light years away. Now you have a spaceship that can travel faster than light. In this spaceship it takes you 1 month to get to your target, but back on earth it takes years and years.

In theory, thru time dilation you could embark on a journey to another star and come back to earth having aged only a few months or years, yet the earth you left behind is many many generations older.

Not time travel per say, but fascinating!

Red

Maybe, you're just moving really fast

Throw some clocks in those spaceships, and then things get interesting.

**IronCellChemist** · 11-07-2004, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Psychotron

The fourth dimension is all space that one can get to by travelling in a direction perpendicular to three-dimensional space.

Exactly! And which direction would that be?

**samoth** · 11-07-2004, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by IronCellChemist

Edwin A. Abbott wrote a novel called Flatland.

Check out the sequel, "Flatterland".

**samoth** · 11-07-2004, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by Red Ketchup

Actually a topic I love is subjective time dilation from traveling faster than light.

Say you have a spaceship that travels faster than light.
You go to another solar system which is 10 light years away. Now you have a spaceship that can travel faster than light. In this spaceship it takes you 1 month to get to your target, but back on earth it takes years and years.

You're talking about time dialation for objects going non-classical speeds. The equation for time dialation t=t'/sqrt(1-(v^2/c^2)) doesn't allow for speeds of v>c. Faster-than-light speeds aren't mathematically allowed by the laws of physics. Your beloved topic has nothing to do with super-light speeds, merely speeds close to that of light. Sorry to burst your bubble.

**FCECC2** · 11-07-2004, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by chrisAdams

they've detected pulsars that move at 60% of c. That's pretty ****ing fast for a mass that huge.

hell yeah!! its the most dense object known!!!

**samoth** · 11-07-2004, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by IronCellChemist

Exactly! And which direction would that be?

Left... the direction would be left . Except for certain circumstances in which the direction would be right. Sometimes, it's even in a direction of west-south-west, but that's rare.

Seriously now... you have a three-dimensional space. Ask yourself, what's perpendicular to a three-dimensional space? Well, imagine three Cartesian coordinate axes x,y,z. These represent our familiar spacial coordinates. Now imagine a second set of Cartesian coordinate axes, x',y',z'. Transformations of a point on C to a point on C' can be considered as time. This isn't entirely true, but it's a ghetto way of thinking about it.

**samoth** · 11-07-2004, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by TRLS63

hell yeah!! its the most dense object known!!!

... in the set of all macroscopic baryonic material, perhaps.

**IronCellChemist** · 11-07-2004, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by TRLS63

hell yeah!! its the most dense object known!!!

Actually this is not true. The density of a black hole infinite. Which would be greater.

**samoth** · 11-07-2004, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by IronCellChemist

Actually this is not true. The density of a black hole infinite. Which would be greater.

No, the mass of a black hole is finite. The mass of the singularity is considered infinite, however, current laws of physics break down at the level of a singularity, so nothing can really be said about it, mass or otherwise.

Back to your original post, say I have another black hole, also with infinite density. Now, in terms of density, which would be greater? I think mine is. But wait, how can we compare infinite density with infinite density? Hmmm...

Here's a hint: (infinity)-(infinity) is not equal to infinity, nor zero. So who's is bigger??

**FCECC2** · 11-07-2004, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by IronCellChemist

Actually this is not true. The density of a black hole infinite. Which would be greater.

im talking about object... anyway, a pulsar is a stage of a dying star becoming a black hole

**MMC78** · 11-07-2004, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by IronCellChemist

We as 3D beings are living in a 2D universe. To the flat beings we are like gods. We can perform surgery on them by reaching directly into them without cutting them open. We could pick them up and place them in another location. It would seem to them as though they were teleporting. Now apply this same concept to our world. I believe traveling great distances, space travel, will be possible through accessing a 4th time dimension. This is how you get around the speed of light problem. Anti-gravity propulsion systems could also be another way and probably more realistic. This second concept would also
solve the worlds energy problems. Check out ZPE, we are closer to it than some might think.

TIME IS NOT A SPATIAL DIMENSION. There "might" be additional spatial dimensions (see string theory). There are certain reasons why it can't be. First and formost moving backwards through time breaks the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Second, it creates the standard unresolvable paradoxes.

It makes you sound very ignorant when you don't understand basic physics then speculate about advanced topics like zero point energy and anti-gravity.

**MMC78** · 11-07-2004, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by samoth

Here's a hint: (infinity)-(infinity) is not equal to infinity, nor zero. So who's is bigger??

Depends on the algegra you're working in. Usually subtracting and dividing infinities lead to nonsense answers though.

Then there's the added complication of countable vs uncountable infinities.

**samoth** · 11-07-2004, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by MMC78

Depends on the algegra you're working in. Usually subtracting and dividing infinities lead to nonsense answers though.

Then there's the added complication of countable vs uncountable infinities.

I was thinking in calculus and analysis. Infinities are undefined in basic algebra, and lead to nonsensical answers. Taking the limits and using the tools of calculus, infinities are still undefined, but can lead to somewhat 'real' answers. If we're talking dimensions and relativity, we are, of course, using calculus.

**MMC78** · 11-07-2004, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by samoth

I was thinking in calculus and analysis. Infinities are undefined in basic algebra, and lead to nonsensical answers. Taking the limits and using the tools of calculus, infinities are still undefined, but can lead to somewhat 'real' answers. If we're talking dimensions and relativity, we are, of course, using calculus.

I was speaking of algebra(s) in the mathematical sense. An algebra is just a collection of objects and the operators defined on them. But you can define an algebra to deal with infinities in particular ways for particular purposes.

**IronCellChemist** · 11-07-2004, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by MMC78

TIME IS NOT A SPATIAL DIMENSION. There "might" be additional spatial dimensions (see string theory). There are certain reasons why it can't be. First and formost moving backwards through time breaks the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Second, it creates the standard unresolvable paradoxes.

It makes you sound very ignorant when you don't understand basic physics then speculate about advanced topics like zero point energy and anti-gravity.

Wow, I never claim to be an expert in the field of physics. No need to start throwing around terms like "ignorant". I have been fascinated with the idea of ZPE since I began researching it and was interested in some open discussion. There is no doubt that your knowledge far exceeds mine. Try to be patient and not so hostile. Cheers

**samoth** · 11-07-2004, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by IronCellChemist

Wow, I never claim to be an expert in the field of physics. No need to start throwing around terms like "ignorant". I have been fascinated with the idea of ZPE since I began researching it and was interested in some open discussion. There is no doubt that your knowledge far exceeds mine. Try to be patient and not so hostile. Cheers

I believe he was just trying to say that you need to have a basic idea of the workings of physics before tackling its more complex theories and implications.

I use the word 'ignorant' as well. We don't mean it as name calling or as in "you're stupid", but more of "you lack knowledge in this area". In the internet world, it's usually taken as a flame, though. I am ignorant when it comes to business administration... I'm not stupid, but I do lack any knowledge in that area. I don't think any offense was intended at all.

**samoth** · 11-07-2004, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by MMC78

I was speaking of algebra(s) in the mathematical sense. An algebra is just a collection of objects and the operators defined on them. But you can define an algebra to deal with infinities in particular ways for particular purposes.

Point taken; agreed. I didn't 'shift gears' from the basis of argument of the other posts to yours.

**MMC78** · 11-07-2004, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by IronCellChemist

Wow, I never claim to be an expert in the field of physics. No need to start throwing around terms like "ignorant". I have been fascinated with the idea of ZPE since I began researching it and was interested in some open discussion. There is no doubt that your knowledge far exceeds mine. Try to be patient and not so hostile. Cheers

Sorry, I'm dieting

. No hard feelings?

**Matrix78** · 11-07-2004, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by samoth

No, the mass of a black hole is finite. The mass of the singularity is considered infinite, however, current laws of physics break down at the level of a singularity, so nothing can really be said about it, mass or otherwise.

Back to your original post, say I have another black hole, also with infinite density. Now, in terms of density, which would be greater? I think mine is. But wait, how can we compare infinite density with infinite density? Hmmm...

Here's a hint: (infinity)-(infinity) is not equal to infinity, nor zero. So who's is bigger??

isn't this where we now start using Quantum Physics?

**Psychotron** · 11-07-2004, 09:52 PM

Psshh, if quantum phsyics breaks the laws of general physics then i think you could break the law of thermodynamics. or is it that the laws of general physics dont apply to quantum physics, crap i cant remember.

**MMC78** · 11-07-2004, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Matrix78

isn't this where we now start using Quantum Physics?

They both break down at a singularity. Quantum physics fails because it doesn't deal well with relativistic effects at the quantum level. General relativity has problems dealing with objects on the quantum scale (i.e. spacetime isn't smooth at small levels).

**trailrider38** · 11-08-2004, 12:03 AM

consider this, it is thought of by some that time is gravity. time is like a wind blowing in all directions at the same time. creating pressure on mass, pressure we feel as gravity, the more mass the more time wind pressure. Time is flowing in all directions from the center of the universe where all is still where some say god is and where creation began.

and think about this, those who feel that we can one day move faster than light...
no matter could move faster than the speed of light, because there would be no space/time or distance for matter to exist no flesh and blood, nothing made of matter, can step across that border and still exist. But just beyond that point, there is another dimension-a parallel universe. the bible has always maintaned that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of god.