Originally Posted by kingofmasters
Quite interesting; Only thing is that proteinintake "off cycle" is far exagerated and proteinintake "on cycle" is far underestimated!
With a cycle I mean Cycle + Time till PCT + PCT + time that levels are apparently stable and thus musclemass gained is "secured" (so about cycletime + 2 months) is the time that you need about 200-300 grams a day.
(Now don't give me bull about; 600 grams, nobody that is not on HGH/IGF-L3/Chemokines/Cytokines/other growthfactors can synthesize that --> perhaps if it is his first or second cycle but most of the time not!)
So unless you are way passed your "plateau" (NOT genetic limit for the LAST TIME, this simply cannot be reached!), and have difficulty keeping gained mass there, most people have enough on about 60-100 grams of proteins a day to keep enzymes and immunesystem normal (main goals for consuming protein) and thus not catabolizing muscle.
(In theory 60-100 gram is even too much, if one just uses exact ratios of Essential amino acids! --> 30-50 grams will even be enough then; given to people with kidney failure!)
What is even worse is that those doses (>200 gram while not on cycle and > 300 grams "on") of Protein (especially fast proteins) have proved to be catabolic! (or when training and/or juicing at least bottleneck gains!) (see second and third Pubmed research)
Morens C, Gaudichon C, Fromentin G, Marsset-Baglieri A, Bensaid A, Larue-Achagiotis C, Luengo C, Tome D. Daily delivery of dietary nitrogen to the periphery is stable in rats adapted to increased protein intake. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Oct;281(4):E826-36
Masanes, R, Fernandez-Lopez JA, Alemany M, Remesar X, and Rafecas I. Effect of dietary protein content on tissue protein synthesis rates in Zucker lean rats. Nutr Res 19: 1017-1026, 1999
Khalid Almurshed, Katharine Grunewald. Dietary Protein Does Not Affect Overloaded Skeletal Muscle in Rats. Journal of Nutrition. 2000;130:1743-1748
Grofte T, Wolthers T, Jensen SA, Moller N, Jorgensen JO, Tygstrup N, Orskov H, Vilstrup H. Effects of growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I singly and in combination on in vivo capacity of urea synthesis, gene expression of urea cycle enzymes, and organ nitrogen contents in rats. Hepatology. 1997 Apr;25(4):964-9
What is far more important then amount of protein -->
Proteintype!
Proteinratio!
Times of Intake!
Proteintype
An individual under about the "magic line" of 30 years benefits way more from
Slow Proteins (like Caseinate, Milkprotein and Eggwhiteprotein) then from fast proteins (like Whey or "already" AminoAcids).
Over 30 it is the other way around.
Both benefit much from Fast Proteins (or even better Amino Acids) before lifting and Slow proteins before bed!
Proteinratio!
The body can synthesize it's amino-acids to its need, only thing is it can't synthesize so-called "Essental amino-acids" it is therefore important to have an abundance of these since they tend to bottleneck gains!
Also there is a certain ratio between Amino-acids (some you need alot, some a little) it is just way too "hardcore" to discuss these here (not only due to the difficult theory involved) but also because this is something for "Pros" and will not differ much in an everyday Man training!
Times of Intake!
Now science has taught us that unless you are a stamina-athlete (like cyclist or Runner) that much meals on a day is countereffective and thus bad, it not only suppresses HGH and IGF production but also lowers natural
Life-expectance (Some Lifeextenionists; eat one day, vast another! which has proved to increase health and life-expectancy) but also screws up Insulin-levels (in stamina-athletes it improves it nevertheless).
Giovannucci E, Pollak M, Liu Y, Platz EA, Majeed N, Rimm EB, Willett WC. Nutritional Predictors of Insulin-like Growth Factor I and Their Relationships to Cancer in Men. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 2003 Feb;12(2):84-9.
Now more and more Powerlifters and Amateur-Bodybuilders are leaving the traditional approach and following this one since one cannot denie the many (same concluding) researches and real-life results (I too have better results with Three Big meals in a day instead of 7 smaller ones)!
I believe there was an article in the Thinkmuscle 2 years ago about it!
Now there are two subjective times which me and most of you bros agree upon are best for supplying protein!
1) First Thing in the morning (so this is subjective meaning when coming out of bed --> research below proves that Protein on an empty stomach is real anabolic and lowers cortisol while raising HGH 21-fold!).
(both slow proteins and fast proteins are beneficial then but best is for optimal anabolic state --> Naturally Predigested Essential Amino Acids, these are superfast in action and then a slow one like Milkprotein).
2) Before Bed (to prevent catabolizing state and increase HGH-production)
Slow proteins are only suitable for this purpose (you can also mix them with Amino Acids like Arginine and Lysine Pyroglamate which are known to boost HGH while asleep!)
Optional:
Fast Proteins before training (or even better Naturally Predigested Essential Amino Acids; they have not got to be predigested though, although if they are it certainly is a plus!)
Bouthegourd JC, Roseau SM, Makarios-Lahham L, Leruyet PM, Tome DG, Even PC. A preexercise alpha-lactalbumin-enriched whey protein meal preserves lipid oxidation and decreases adiposity in rats. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Sep;283(3):E565-72
Now there is just one timing which have caused controversy among me and my bros:
Most of you follow the traditional... Proteins Post Work-out!
(within 15 minutes).
Now if you are cycling with Insulin then that is a perfect approach!
But if not then the many researches have shown (I also follow this guideline)
that your body after a work-out does not need protein! --> It needs carbohydrates (preferabely 0,8 times in gram per KG bodyweight) within 15 minutes of excercise, but it only needs protein about an hour later (so in the form of a shake or meal) 1 hour After Work-Out:
The most common mistake is to take protein right after workout but this will cause at max 30% of the protein to be used properly the rest will be simply burned or worse stored as fat
Right after Workout the body can be 3 times as anabolic if supplied 0.8 timesin grams your weight in KG of Carbs...
If taken right Post workout; That will cause at max 30% of the protein to be used properly the rest will be simply burned or worse stored as fat
When the GLUT404-bodies in your cell shut down (about 1 hour after training) your body will be craving for proteins and this is the best time of the day to supply them...
Now I know this goes against everything you learned (I did the old approach as well) but with most things in life people do it until they find something better or discover its dangerous, as is with for instance Benzene which for many years people thought was the best Cleaning fluid until they discovered it was very carcinogous...
Here are the studies (there are more just look them up!)
1. Van Loon LJ, Kruijshoop M, Verhagen H, Saris WH, Wagenmakers AJ. Ingestion of Protein Hydrolysate and Amino Acid-Carbohydrate Mixtures Increases Postexercise Plasma Insulin Responses in Men. J Nutr 2000 Oct;130(10):2508-13.
2. Van Loon LJ, Saris WH, Kruijshoop M, Wagenmakers AJ. Maximizing postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures. Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11.
3. Pitkanen HT, Nykanen T, Knuutinen J, Lahti K, Keinanen O, Alen M, Komi PV, Mero AA. Free amino acid pool and muscle protein balance after resistance exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 May;35(5):784-92.
4. Dangin M, Boirie Y, Guillet C, Beaufrere B. Influence of the protein digestion rate on protein turnover in young and elderly subjects. J Nutr 2002 Oct;132(10):3228S-33S.
5. Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, Beaufrere B. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1997 Dec 23;94(26):14930-5.
6. Dangin M, Boirie Y, Garcia-Rodenas C, Gachon P, Fauquant J, Callier P, Ballevre O, Beaufrere B. The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 2001 Feb;280(2):E340-8.
Sorry for the Bore!
Greets
Kingofmasters