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  1. #1
    lzicc's Avatar
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    Losing fat without losing too much muscle

    I will be coming off a bulking cycle and will be ready to cut withing the next month. I have been reading alot about the best way to do this and think that this may work. I am 6'1", 230lbs, not sure of my bodyfat, but most of my fat is in my gut.

    I am thinking about eating hardly any carbs on non workout days and as many as 150 grams of carbs on workout days. (mainly post workout and in the am) I maintain at about 3200 calories a day, so I will bump that down to 2500/2700 a day. I will keep my protein up to about 300+ grams a day and my fat intake will be fairly low also. Mainly the only fat I would take is 2 tablespoons of flax oil and 2 tablespoons of olive oil per day. Cardio 3 - 4 times a week. It will be mainly bike riding outside.

    With cutting the carbs like this work without sacrificing too much muscle loss?

    I haven't got it all worked out yet, I am just trying to get some input on the best way of doing this diet so that I can get it setup.

    I think cutting out the carbs except for workout days is the way to go to burn fat, but will I sacrifice much muscle doing it this way and is the best way to lose fat? Yes, I read the cuttings stickys.

  2. #2
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    You're kind of on the right track. Put together a sample meal plan - one fore lifting days and one for non-lifting days - and we can help you fine tune things.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad_man
    You're kind of on the right track. Put together a sample meal plan - one fore lifting days and one for non-lifting days - and we can help you fine tune things.
    awwww, what a nice reply

  4. #4
    lzicc's Avatar
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    That's what I need to know bad_man. Just want to make sure I am on the right track with the carb thing before I get this together. I will set up a diet and post it and get some feedback from you guys. I just want to maintain as much muscle as possible. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer to lose the fat to preserve muscle. I did a keto diet before and it worked, but I lost some decent muscle.

  5. #5
    bad_man's Avatar
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    Keto will definitely make you lose muscle.

  6. #6
    lzicc's Avatar
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    Here is a rough idea for the diet that I am working on. The carbs are a little higher than I wanted them to be and the fat is a little on the high side. I wanted to get the calories to about 2700, but I am having a hard time getting them that low.

    I will be working out about 4/5 days a week for about an hour each time. I will do cardio 3 times a week for 30 – 45 minutes riding a bike outside. For the meal at 2:30, I’ve added ham for variety. I drink about 1.5 to 2 gallons of water per day so sodium from the ham should not be an issue.

    My PWO shake does not show the dextrose in it. If I add dextrose on this diet, it is going to up my carbs to high.

    Tell me what you think or what you would change.


    6:45 AM Wakeup
    Protein shake
    1 scoop whey
    Flax Oil
    3 Egg Whites
    ½ cup Skim Milk
    ½ cup oats


    8:45 AM
    Breakfast
    4 Scrambled eggs scrambled in water
    2 sausage patties
    OJ 8 oz.


    11:30
    Lunch
    Grilled Chicken Breast 6.4oz
    1 Cup Brown Rice w/soy
    1 Whole Medium Apple


    Small Meal 2:30
    Baked Ham Slices 3oz
    Cheese 1 slice
    2 slices of wheat bread
    Iced Tea 16 oz.


    Small Meal 5:00
    Tuna 6oz. Can with Lemon

    6:30 Post Workout Shake
    Whey Protein 2 Scoops
    ½ cup oats


    Dinner 7:00
    Grilled Steak 9 oz.

    This comes out to:
    Protein: 317
    Carbs: 189
    Fat: 143
    Calories: 3140

  7. #7
    lzicc's Avatar
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    One more thing, the keto diet that I was on last year, I took the daily calorie intake down to about 1900/2000 a day and I was losing about 2/3 pounds a week, but I lost a bit too much of muscle.
    And the diet I listed would be for lifting days. I will need to put one together for non lift days. I will use the same diet, but eliminate some of the oats to bring the carbs down. I hate to do that, but what else can I do.

  8. #8
    bad_man's Avatar
    bad_man is offline Anabolic Member
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    Here's some pointers...

    Eat protein at every meal.
    Never eat protein alone. Always combine it with EITHER carbs OR fat.
    Do not combine carbs and fat in the same meal.

    Also, do not consume carbs until at least 45-60 minutes after cardio.

  9. #9
    lzicc's Avatar
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    I can do that, it will just up my carbs/fat/calorie intake. For the 5 pm meal I can add some oil and the 7 pm dinner I can add more brown rice. All the other meals have fat or carbs in it. Why add carbs/fat to all protein meals? Does that help slow down the absorbtion.

    While I am on this diet, I want to cycle test e 250mg every 3 days/eq 200mg every 3 days/oral turinabol 50mg ed. for the first 6 weeks and then 50mg oral winny ed for the last 6 weeks of the cycle. The cycle length for the test and eq will be 16 weeks. Do you think this is to much for the orals? I will only have a 1 month break going from turinabol to winny.

  10. #10
    SwoleCat is offline AR Hall of Fame
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    That question would go in the anabolic forum.

    ~SC~

  11. #11
    bad_man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzicc
    I can do that, it will just up my carbs/fat/calorie intake. For the 5 pm meal I can add some oil and the 7 pm dinner I can add more brown rice. All the other meals have fat or carbs in it. Why add carbs/fat to all protein meals? Does that help slow down the absorbtion.

    While I am on this diet, I want to cycle test e 250mg every 3 days/eq 200mg every 3 days/oral turinabol 50mg ed. for the first 6 weeks and then 50mg oral winny ed for the last 6 weeks of the cycle. The cycle length for the test and eq will be 16 weeks. Do you think this is to much for the orals? I will only have a 1 month break going from turinabol to winny.
    Like Swole says, your second set of questions should be posted in the Anabolic Forum.

    Your total calories may not go up, because I think you should reduce some items, such as milk and orange juice. And toss the bread too.

    You want carbs or fats with your protein so that your body can use them for fuel while the protein is used to repair and build your muscle tissue. There are a host of other reasons too, but that's a pretty good one in and of itself.

  12. #12
    taiboxa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzicc
    Here is a rough idea for the diet that I am working on. The carbs are a little higher than I wanted them to be and the fat is a little on the high side. I wanted to get the calories to about 2700, but I am having a hard time getting them that low.

    I will be working out about 4/5 days a week for about an hour each time. I will do cardio 3 times a week for 30 – 45 minutes riding a bike outside. For the meal at 2:30, I’ve added ham for variety. I drink about 1.5 to 2 gallons of water per day so sodium from the ham should not be an issue.

    My PWO shake does not show the dextrose in it. If I add dextrose on this diet, it is going to up my carbs to high.

    Tell me what you think or what you would change.


    6:45 AM Wakeup
    Protein shake
    1 scoop whey
    Flax Oil
    3 Egg Whites
    ½ cup Skim Milk
    ½ cup oats


    8:45 AM
    Breakfast
    4 Scrambled eggs scrambled in water
    2 sausage patties
    OJ 8 oz.


    11:30
    Lunch
    Grilled Chicken Breast 6.4oz
    1 Cup Brown Rice w/soy
    1 Whole Medium Apple


    Small Meal 2:30
    Baked Ham Slices 3oz
    Cheese 1 slice
    2 slices of wheat bread
    Iced Tea 16 oz.


    Small Meal 5:00
    Tuna 6oz. Can with Lemon

    6:30 Post Workout Shake
    Whey Protein 2 Scoops
    ½ cup oats


    Dinner 7:00
    Grilled Steak 9 oz.

    This comes out to:
    Protein: 317
    Carbs: 189
    Fat: 143
    Calories: 3140
    like Bad Man said avoid milk/juices and breads are weak carbs.
    Dextrose PWO should be mandatory to aid in protein synthesis through an insulin spike, n' i woudnt do the oats for pwo shake unless its the starchy thin roled oats and its taken in conjuction w/ dextrose.
    Cardio min of 45min
    If your going to do fruit i.e. apple, consume it in your PreWorkout Meal besides apple would be best choice due to its high content of citruline mallate.
    take flax w/ your tuna or maybe a veggie or fat free cottage cheese.
    take out some nonsense foods, and seperate carbs and fats should be easy to get cal's down to 2700.

  13. #13
    SwoleCat is offline AR Hall of Fame
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    U need DEX!!!

    Take some other sh*t out, but don't skimp PWO offerings.

    That outline is horrid IMHO.

    ~SC~

  14. #14
    Hypertrophy's Avatar
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    You are coming off a bulking cycle and within one month you want to do another cutting cycle??? Sounds like, you pretty much rely on the stuff!

  15. #15
    lzicc's Avatar
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    If you know how you would change things around on my diet outline that would work out better, I'm up for it.
    I have made some changes from your comments, but am having a little trouble with the 2:30 meal. This meal I eat at work so I need to make it somewhat convenient. If it was up to me, I would make it another can of tuna, but I don't think my co workers would like that since I work in an office. The ice tea is in there for energy only. I drink it and buy the time I get home to workout, I am pretty energetic.

    The 8:45 breakfast is all I have access to at that time, which is not bad I don't think anyhow.

    With the changes that I have made so far with everyones suggestions, I am at Protein 309 grams, Carbs 124 grams, Fat 311 Grams and Calories at 3237. This carb count does not include the dextrose yet. I don't have the breakdown in for dextrose in front of me to include it.

    The oats are plain, raw, mothers oats. I add them in with the whey and dextrose for my pwo. Should I take them out? I took them out in the diet outline below.

    The apple I eat just to get some fruit in my diet. I eat raw veggies, but did not include them in my diet outline since they don't count of what I have read in the past.

    BTW, thanks for the input everyone.

    6:45 AM Wakeup
    Protein shake
    1 scoop whey
    Flax Oil
    3 Egg Whites
    ½ cup oats


    8:45 AM
    Breakfast
    4 Scrambled eggs
    2 sausage patties


    11:30
    Lunch
    Grilled Chicken Breast 6.4oz
    1 Cup Brown Rice w/soy


    Small Meal 2:30
    Baked Ham Slices 3oz
    Cheese 1 slice
    2 slices of wheat bread
    Iced Tea 16 oz.
    1 Whole Medium Apple

    Small Meal 5:00
    Tuna 6oz. Can with Lemon
    2 Tablespoons Olive Oil

    6:30 Post Workout Shake
    Whey Protein 2 Scoops
    Dextrose


    Dinner 7:00
    Steak 9 oz.
    1 Cup Brown Rice w/soy

  16. #16
    alphaman's Avatar
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    You're still combining fats and carbs in meals 1 & 4.

  17. #17
    alphaman's Avatar
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    And how lean is that sausage there, buddy?

  18. #18
    taiboxa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    You're still combining fats and carbs in meals 1 & 4.
    the fats in meal one are negligable because of the high quality of them and the low gi of the carbs consumed. however.. meal 4 sux BAD
    replace ham w/ a lean meat, replace bread w/ a good carb (i.e. Yam, Rice, Lotsa Green veggies, oats, barley, or like), get rid of cheese, and an apple is a great preworkout food due to its citruline malate content and its gi rating. but not for a reg meal IMO. Or change it to a pro/fat meal.
    Wait and hour after your pwo shake to eat your next meal change the steak to a lean meat, try to reduce the fat in this meal by as much as possible.
    meal 2 isnt that good either.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzicc
    I will be coming off a bulking cycle and will be ready to cut withing the next month. I have been reading alot about the best way to do this and think that this may work. I am 6'1", 230lbs, not sure of my bodyfat, but most of my fat is in my gut.

    I am thinking about eating hardly any carbs on non workout days and as many as 150 grams of carbs on workout days. (mainly post workout and in the am) I maintain at about 3200 calories a day, so I will bump that down to 2500/2700 a day. I will keep my protein up to about 300+ grams a day and my fat intake will be fairly low also. Mainly the only fat I would take is 2 tablespoons of flax oil and 2 tablespoons of olive oil per day. Cardio 3 - 4 times a week. It will be mainly bike riding outside.

    With cutting the carbs like this work without sacrificing too much muscle loss?

    I haven't got it all worked out yet, I am just trying to get some input on the best way of doing this diet so that I can get it setup.

    I think cutting out the carbs except for workout days is the way to go to burn fat, but will I sacrifice much muscle doing it this way and is the best way to lose fat? Yes, I read the cuttings stickys.
    Careful not to cut your calories too fast, or you might lose to much muscle.
    Also, do not cut imediately after your bulking cycle ends. Give your body plenty of time to recover it's natural testosterone levels and adjust to it's new size.

  20. #20
    SpinalTap is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiboxa
    an apple is a great preworkout food due to its citruline malate content and its gi rating. but not for a reg meal IMO. Or change it to a pro/fat meal.

    change the steak to a lean meat, try to reduce the fat in this meal by as much as possible.

    How long before the workout should the apple be?

    And if steak isnt a lean meat, then is tuna and chicken all there is? I always thought steak was pretty good.

  21. #21
    alphaman's Avatar
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    woops, nevermind

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinalTap
    How long before the workout should the apple be?

    And if steak isnt a lean meat, then is tuna and chicken all there is? I always thought steak was pretty good.
    tuna chickn turkey egg whites .. tofu?
    some steak cuts are lean... but usually not lean enuff for a pro/carb meal.
    apple w/ protein shake and 1/3cup oats about 45min pre work out shud suffice.

  23. #23
    alphaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiboxa
    tuna chickn turkey egg whites .. tofu?
    .
    I thought soy protein doesn't have the right aminos for your body to utilize it for muscle.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    I thought soy protein doesn't have the right aminos for your body to utilize it for muscle.
    it depends.... are you fighting breast canceR?!

  25. #25
    alphaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiboxa
    it depends.... are you fighting breast canceR?!

    Okay....So, if I am it will make me grow big muscles?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Okay....So, if I am it will make me grow big muscles?
    only if your lactating

  27. #27
    lzicc's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. You gave me some great info here.

    I will work on this diet and once I figure it out, I will post it again. I will keep either fats or carbs with the protein intake, but not together. I will replace the ham/bread with something else. I agree, that is a bad meal. I love brown rice with a little soy, so I have no problem replacing the bread, just need to find a protein source.

    I hate chicken and tuna, but I can't find another high protein meat besides steak and I don't want to eat that all of the time. The chicken and tuna I can force down for now, it just won't be the most pleasurable meal.

    I think that sausage may need to go. I just need to find something to replace it.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzicc
    Thanks guys. You gave me some great info here.

    I will work on this diet and once I figure it out, I will post it again. I will keep either fats or carbs with the protein intake, but not together. I will replace the ham/bread with something else. I agree, that is a bad meal. I love brown rice with a little soy, so I have no problem replacing the bread, just need to find a protein source.

    I hate chicken and tuna, but I can't find another high protein meat besides steak and I don't want to eat that all of the time. The chicken and tuna I can force down for now, it just won't be the most pleasurable meal.

    I think that sausage may need to go. I just need to find something to replace it.
    Tukey Foo... bake a breast... i go through about Three-Four 7lb Turkey breasts a week.

  29. #29
    alphaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiboxa
    only if your lactating
    You can dance around a question, you're like a politician w/ a eighth grade mentality. j/k seriously, do you think soy is a good source of protein for muscle? Answer the question sucka.

  30. #30
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    chuck89gt5.0 is offline Senior Member
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    If you are going to be "on" a cycle while dieting it will be MUCH easier than if you were to do it without steroids so you will have a little bit more room to play with your diet. I have hear of guys using gear and almost starving themselves and not lose much muscle at all, but I would not recommend that! Gear will help preserve the muscle.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    You can dance around a question, you're like a politician w/ a eighth grade mentality. j/k seriously, do you think soy is a good source of protein for muscle? Answer the question sucka.
    i wouldnt rely on soy for muscle growth but... for health purposes i have heard/read many great things about it... isoflavins are GREAT!

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck89gt5.0
    If you are going to be "on" a cycle while dieting it will be MUCH easier than if you were to do it without steroids so you will have a little bit more room to play with your diet. I have hear of guys using gear and almost starving themselves and not lose much muscle at all, but I would not recommend that! Gear will help preserve the muscle.
    yep a clean diet while on gear w/ about an 800 caloric deficite should bring around some nice results w/ very minimal if any muscle loss w/ gear.
    especially w/ light cardio 45min daily in morning.

  33. #33
    lzicc's Avatar
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    That's how felt about it too. I figure the juice will help presserve muscle while cutting. Since you said this, maybe I do have more room to play with here. I don't want to lose fat too fast, but I do want to go into a little bit of a deficit in my calorie intake. I may try to stay in the 2800/3000 calories a day range.

    I really learned alot from you guys on this thread. I never really thought about taking in carbs and fats at the same time. That seems like a critical point as far as how much fat you gain if you take in both at the same time. As I have been bulking, I just eat a lot. It is all clean, but I mixed my fats with my carbs. That was a mistake on my part. If I would have seperated the carbs and fats on each meal, I probably could have avoided gaining some of the fat.


    Quote Originally Posted by chuck89gt5.0
    If you are going to be "on" a cycle while dieting it will be MUCH easier than if you were to do it without steroids so you will have a little bit more room to play with your diet. I have hear of guys using gear and almost starving themselves and not lose much muscle at all, but I would not recommend that! Gear will help preserve the muscle.

  34. #34
    lzicc's Avatar
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    Ok, let me know what you guys think of this. I cut out alot of the unnecessary stuff. I have a total of 3 protein shakes in there. I would rather not have this many, but first thing in the am I like to get some fast protein in since my body has not had anything all night and the last shake I like to take with flax oil so that I have protein in for the night and the flax should help it absorb slower. I don't like cottage cheese for that, so that's out.

    I got the cals down where I want them to be and the protein is not too low. I wanted it a little higher, but it should be good where it is at. I can always adjust with extra tuna if needed.

    The dinner meal has fat from the steak and carbs from the rice, which I don't know what I can do to seperate that. This diet is pretty bland to begin with, so I don't want to lose the steak and would rather have carbs in this meal since it will come in about 1 hour after my workout.

    I will be eating raw veggies, almonds and nuts throughout the day, but did not find it necesary to add to the calculation.

    Teill me what you think.

    This diet comes out to be 328 grams protein, 151 grams of carbs, 83 grams of fat with a total of 2800 cals.

    6:45 AM Wakeup
    Protein shake
    1 scoop whey
    Oatmeal 1/2 Cup
    5 Egg Whites


    8:45 AM
    Breakfast
    3 Scrambled eggs
    1 Sausage Patty


    11:30
    Lunch
    Grilled Chicken Breast 6.4oz
    1/2 Cup Of Brown Rice


    Small Meal 2:30
    Tuna 6oz. Can with Lemon
    1 Tablespoons Olive Oil

    Small Meal 5:00
    Tuna 6oz. Can with Lemon
    1 Tablespoons Olive Oil


    6:30 Post Workout Shake
    Whey Protein 2 Scoops
    Dextrose


    Dinner 7:00
    Steak 8 oz.
    1/2 Cup Of Brown Rice

    Bedtime 9:00
    1 scoop whey
    Flax Oil 1 Tablespoon

  35. #35
    taiboxa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzicc
    Ok, let me know what you guys think of this. I cut out alot of the unnecessary stuff. I have a total of 3 protein shakes in there. I would rather not have this many, but first thing in the am I like to get some fast protein in since my body has not had anything all night and the last shake I like to take with flax oil so that I have protein in for the night and the flax should help it absorb slower. I don't like cottage cheese for that, so that's out.

    I got the cals down where I want them to be and the protein is not too low. I wanted it a little higher, but it should be good where it is at. I can always adjust with extra tuna if needed.

    The dinner meal has fat from the steak and carbs from the rice, which I don't know what I can do to seperate that. This diet is pretty bland to begin with, so I don't want to lose the steak and would rather have carbs in this meal since it will come in about 1 hour after my workout.

    I will be eating raw veggies, almonds and nuts throughout the day, but did not find it necesary to add to the calculation.

    Teill me what you think.

    This diet comes out to be 328 grams protein, 151 grams of carbs, 83 grams of fat with a total of 2800 cals.

    6:45 AM Wakeup
    Protein shake
    1 scoop whey
    Oatmeal 1/2 Cup
    5 Egg Whites


    8:45 AM
    Breakfast
    3 Scrambled eggs
    1 Sausage Patty
    add a few whites if possible


    11:30
    Lunch
    Grilled Chicken Breast 6.4oz
    1/2 Cup Of Brown Rice


    Small Meal 2:30
    Tuna 6oz. Can with Lemon
    1 Tablespoons Olive Oil

    Small Meal 5:00
    Tuna 6oz. Can with Lemon
    1 Tablespoons Olive Oil


    6:30 Post Workout Shake
    Whey Protein 2 Scoops
    Dextrose


    Dinner 7:00
    Steak 8 oz. i personally would eat lean protein here... to keep protein synthesis at its fullest and wait a lil bit longer to eat maybe 45min-1hr after pwo'shake
    1/2 Cup Of Brown Rice

    Bedtime 9:00
    1 scoop whey i would use real food if at all possible or casien protein ... whey just doesnt last longer than an hour and if its isolate its even less...
    Flax Oil 1 Tablespoon
    overall fairly good diet would get you results but a few tweaks might work to triple the effectiveness of your diet such as PPWO and PreBed which IMO are very important.

  36. #36
    lzicc's Avatar
    lzicc is offline Senior Member
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    Thanks tailboxa. I'm out of ideas for protein food for dinner. I hate to eat chicken again and I thought about fish, but that doesn't keep too long so it is hard to keep it in the house. I can however sub once in awhile with broiled fish for meal 7.

    Bedtime I can definately get some casien protein, that's not a problem. I have egg powder protein, would that work or should I go for the casien? Should I still add the flax oil if I go with casien for the bedtime meal?

  37. #37
    taiboxa's Avatar
    taiboxa is offline "Vanity Redefined" ~VET~
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzicc
    Thanks tailboxa. I'm out of ideas for protein food for dinner. I hate to eat chicken again and I thought about fish, but that doesn't keep too long so it is hard to keep it in the house. I can however sub once in awhile with broiled fish for meal 7.

    Bedtime I can definately get some casien protein, that's not a problem. I have egg powder protein, would that work or should I go for the casien? Should I still add the flax oil if I go with casien for the bedtime meal?
    egg is good too.. its right behind casein.

  38. #38
    lzicc's Avatar
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    I'll go with the egg then till I run out, then I will order the casien.

    Thanks, I'm glad I finally got this figured out.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by lzicc
    I'll go with the egg then till I run out, then I will order the casien.

    Thanks, I'm glad I finally got this figured out.
    dont worry in about 3 or 4 months a few studys will come out and prove everything you think you know now is wrong and everything will change

  40. #40
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    Frozen fish keeps forever.

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